Hardly news anymore is it? This time it is Greenfield News and Hobby formerly Cudahy News and Hobby, both in the Milwaukee suburbs. What set them apart was that they were not just complete hobby shops, not just trains (which meant they had all manner of materials, supplies, paints, including art supplies, that were of great use of a modeler) but also an unequaled magazine selection, with titles and topics from all over the world. The Gordons are retiring after efforts to sell the business fell through.
http://www.jsonline.com/business/greenfield-news-and-hobby-closing-after-50-years-b99422457z1-288145821.html
February should see some sale prices on trains and other stuff at Greenfield News & Hobby so if you should find yourself in the Milwaukee area you may want to check it out.
Dave Nelson
It may not be news anymore these days but it's still sad. Not to kick a dead iron horse, but I actually enjoy going to an LHS, buying something and not having to wait for it.
Modeling the Pennsylvania Railroad in N Scale.
www.prr-nscale.blogspot.com
I suppose after a life time of standing behind a counter one looks forward in retiring.
All to sadly the majority of the time the owner's kids doesn't want to operate the shop.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
Its always sad to see a fine hobby shop to close.
We see the same disaster here in europe and especialy here in Belgium.
I live in Brussels, Belgium the center of Europe and....no more good train shop in Brussels and no more hobby shop to find the hardware.
I need to order nearly everything to my needs now.
And it seems none of the young people want to open a hobby shop so a clouded future for modelist here in Belgium
I would like to be more supportive of the LHSs. But most sell for MSRP, and the online discounts on locos are significant, and in most cases, there is no sales tax. If I can save $50 or more on a loco, it's a no brainer.
hobo9941 I would like to be more supportive of the LHSs. But most sell for MSRP, and the online discounts on locos are significant, and in most cases, there is no sales tax. If I can save $50 or more on a loco, it's a no brainer.
True and that $50.00 saved can be used for other things.
The majority of those shops are regular hobby shops that uses on line presence to increase their sales by offering their old stock to a wider customer base and of course those customers that are seeking long oop models..
It is a shame. But if hobbyshops continue to go along with the msrp, and they will, it will be hard to compete with online retailers. I have a fine LHS near me, I like the owner and a few of his employees. But I'll be honest with you, when I pay retail when I know I could of gotten it cheaper, I walk out with a bad feeling in my gut. I want to support him but I have a family that I want to support more.
Joe C
dominic c It is a shame. But if hobbyshops continue to go along with the msrp, and they will, it will be hard to compete with online retailers. I have a fine LHS near me, I like the owner and a few of his employees. But I'll be honest with you, when I pay retail when I know I could of gotten it cheaper, I walk out with a bad feeling in my gut. I want to support him but I have a family that I want to support more. Joe C
Joe, unless they are big enough to buy direct, local shops have no choice but to charge higher prices, even if those prices are discounted a small amount. Much of what you can buy online is priced only a few percentage points above what a LHS must pay from a distributor.
Just to make a modest living in retail, you need to be able to make a 35% margin.
They simply can't pay the overhead on 10%.
That is why small local shops are dieing off - only those willing to "go big" and get on the web as well can make it.
Sheldon
I don't mind having to pay MRSP if I can get it NOW!, but, the problem is most of the time I can't get the little detail and specialized parts I need. And, having my LHS special order is a problem--it takes weeks for things to come in, and 90% of the time, they get put out on the shelves instead of being held for me. So most of the time, I mail order.
Greg
Sheldon I understanding what your saying and agree 100%. It's a tough business to be into. From high prices to other interests. But I'm not kidding about the bad feeling I get inside when I buy something there. The only time I don't get that feeling is when he has an engine that no one else, anywhere, has, and I want it. That's when I don't feel bad paying retail.
I have been doing more of my purchases at my LHS (HobbytownUSA) for small detail items that are availabel through Walthers. I had been ordering direct but realized that my LHS doesn't charge for shipping (the biggest expense of online purchases, sometimes more than the cost of the items I need) and the sales tax still doesn't come near the shipping cost. I email my list to one of the owners and he places Walthers orders on Monday/Tuesday and most of my orders are in by Saturday. I may have to wait a little longer on some items but I always check the Walthers site for 'in stock' items. The LHS charges the same price as Walthers (even sale prices) so I am not spending any more by doing this and I feel that I am helping support them in a small way.
However, on large ticket items (locos and DCC stuff) I still go online because the savings are significant. I understand why the LHS has to charge MSR or close to it because of their overhead. I still purchase other items at the LHS that I might get a little cheaper online, but as mentioned before, I want it now.
If we don't support our LHS in some part, they will all eventually go under.
-Bob
Life is what happens while you are making other plans!
The last time I bought a locomotive, it was one of those pre-order things. I went to my LHS, and without even asking he offered a price that...(get this)...was better than Trainworld. It was 20% off MSRP, and I didn't have to pay shipping.
At this point in layout building, I have to accept the fact that most stuff I want isn't typically off-the-shelf stock, so I order through my LHS. Like Bob, this saves me the shipping charge, and I get 10 or 15 percent off from the shop. I find that if I email my order, it's at the shop within a week, tagged with my name on a backroom shelf along with everyone else's special orders.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
IMO, Trainworld is not as good on prices as they used to be, and they used to run closeout specials. That's where the real savings was...if you were interested in anything on closeout.
Its nice to see that a LHS can offer somethng for just a few dollars more.
- Douglas
[/quote]
farrellaa I have been doing more of my purchases at my LHS (HobbytownUSA) for small detail items that are availabel through Walthers. I had been ordering direct but realized that my LHS doesn't charge for shipping (the biggest expense of online purchases, sometimes more than the cost of the items I need) and the sales tax still doesn't come near the shipping cost. I email my list to one of the owners and he places Walthers orders on Monday/Tuesday and most of my orders are in by Saturday. I may have to wait a little longer on some items but I always check the Walthers site for 'in stock' items. The LHS charges the same price as Walthers (even sale prices) so I am not spending any more by doing this and I feel that I am helping support them in a small way. However, on large ticket items (locos and DCC stuff) I still go online because the savings are significant. I understand why the LHS has to charge MSR or close to it because of their overhead. I still purchase other items at the LHS that I might get a little cheaper online, but as mentioned before, I want it now. If we don't support our LHS in some part, they will all eventually go under. -Bob
I've have shopped long enough at my LHS to get a discount, but I usually would save more online. There are a lot of reputable sellers on Ebay that offer bigger savings than a LHS.
Here's a question for everyone. Will this wonderful hobby of ours get better or worse if all LHS's go the way of TV westerns and polio?
As far as small detail parts I order from Walthers..Its more convenient for me then ordering from a hobby shop at full MSRP and then making a 52 mile round trip to pick them up and buy lunch in the process-very important if you have diabetes since you gotta keep you sugar level in the safe zone or risk a sugar drop while driving..Paint,brushes etc is added to my monthly on line shop order.
However,if I had a local shop then I would buy most of my needs there including most orders for one or two freight cars.
dominic cHere's a question for everyone. Will this wonderful hobby of ours get better or worse if all LHS's go the way of TV westerns and polio? Joe C
Joe,IMHO no..
The reason being is simple..Most people today prefers to shop from home instead of going to the malls and box stores.All of the major box stores including Wal-Mart has on line shopping.Video gamers already know the best prices is found on line and not at (say) Game Stop so, a new modeler will already know this..Any questions can be asked on this or other model railroad forums.
I'm sure the hobby may see some growth thanks to model railroad videos on you tube.
This topic is tantamount to beating a dead water buffalo, but here are some thoughts....a shop if well stocked, has good prices and is run as a business can succeed. One shop in particualr near Baltimore was quite suceesful because the owner new how to stock a shop, price it, and manage it. What was amazing is the owner was as about as popular as a hog at a bar mitzvah, but still folks came and bought....and took the abuse!
Would this work today (sans abuse)?...I think so. Years back I worked as a corporate pilot and my duties took me into just about every state. In my flight bag was the current Model Railroader, and during layovers, I must have visited over 300 train shops in a multi year period. I only thought around three or four were noteworthy, and I learned much from seeing blatant mistakes made by others. It is these mistakes ( and there were many...but understand that this is my opinion only) that causes the demise of many LHS's.
When the LHS's finally becomes a foot note in American folklore, so may follow the hobby....but my guess is this will not happen soon. Newbies have to see and experience the hobby first hand. Clubs work as do train shows, but many items needed may not be found at most shows, making a good arguement for the LHS.
Also, LHS's must now enter the 21st Century and have an on-line presense. I will note three major examples of a well run hobby/train shop.....Main Line Hobby, in Blue Ridge Summit, PA, Tommy Gilberts in Gettysburg, PA, and MB Klien in Cockeysvile ,MD...the latter being a super store and must be visited in person!
I did not include the big one in Denver as during my few visits, the attitude from staff was not great..and prices?????
Anyone planning on opening a shop should visit these stores first.
HZ
Howard,
I used to work as a geologist and traveled a good deal (45 of the 50 states) and made it a point to visit 2 or 3 shops in most cities I visited, if possible. It's true what you say, many shops made mistakes that cause them to fail - certainly many proprieters are their own worst enemy. Also true that in the present day, online is key to success. Opening an LHS is not for the faint of heart, nor for the naive.
Cheers, Jim
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
Howard Zanebut many items needed may not be found at most shows, making a good arguement for the LHS.
If the shop has the item in stock and sadly the last three shops I visited had had stock at least 4-6 years old and very little new stock..I liked that one shop's large decal,paint and scenery detail selection though.
If one is indeed blessed with a fully stock hobby shop then one should support it as much as possible on the other hand if the shop has shelves full of old dusty stock that is years old then why bother?
OK, I'm going to offer a few more thoughts.....which I have offered before.
On one hand the consumer wants a well stocked store - but on the other hand they don't want to see "old merchandise"? Agreed, a good shop needs what is current - but what built all those shops that Howard listed was DEPTH and BREATH of inventory - that does not mean "closing out" everything that is over six months old.
It means having what is current - AND - having what no one else has. Very hard to do in today's "preorder" climate.
I don't know the current dollar values of the inventory or sales at the three shops Howard mentioned - but I know all three shops, and I shop at them all from time to time - I live here in the Mid Atlantic region, resonablely close to all three.
But I would suggest that open and run a shop similar to any of these three, the 10 million dollar figure I suggested in the recent thread about opening a train store would be right in line - maybe not even enough.
I'm still waiting for 10 of you to put up a million each and I will open and manage a top notch model train store for you.
The businesses that Howard listed have been around in one form or another for along time. Their owners and managers have worked hard, been good business people, and built strong successful businesses.
But I would willing to bet that if you took a similar financial plan on Shark Tank you would be told it is a bad investment.
The shops mentioned have good staff, good inventories, and a customer base larger than their local area - that did not happen overnight - and at some point it took skill, risk and MONEY.
As for priceing - again, no shop can really compete in this business any more buying everything they sell from distributors - you have to be big enough to get the "direct from the factory" price.
We saw all this coming in the early 80's when I ran a train department in a hobby shop - the Genie cannot be put back in the bottle.
Sheldon,
You confirmed that it is still doable to run a successful train shop, but I may take issue with the ten million dollar figure...or even a half million. Some mistakes I have noticed over the years were large boxes of inexpensive inventory taking up expensive retail space. A jewelry store can produce the most profit, as items are rather small and carry huge price tags and can survice in a diminutive space.
If I was just a business man knowing diddely about model trains wanting to open a model railraod shop, I'd opt for selling N or Z scales vs the opposite of stocking huge G scale models for about the same cost as the N scale counterpart.
The reasoning should be obvious. When I owned my shop I soon discovered the differences among wholesale, very wholesale, and extreme wholesale....meaning the more cash you laid out, the higher your discount. I once purchased 5000 Model Power freight cars (yellow and brown box with clear window) for 39 cents each. These cars had a retail tag of $2.98 each. They did not last long at 99 cents each. Through lines of credit at several banks, I found more deals like the aforementioned. Then used equipment eventually occupied over half of the store. This was a serious money maker, but certainly not reliable as far as inventory stock. Then the close outs which were purchased at close-out prices...usually around 20 cents on the retail dollar. I loved these deals and there were many.
There is so much more to this story and cannot be told in 25 words or less. Of course location is quite important, but difficult today as rent or purchase in highly trafficked retail areas are tough at best. Another thing which I did was every Friday evening I'd treat staff to beer and pizza and we'd rearrange store so it always had a fresh look for Saturday which was obviously the best sales day.
The close out/special sale tables were always stocked and rearranged almost daily for that "fresh" look.
I do miss the shop (1973 -1975) and mentioned in previous posts...I mistakently sold out for a job which paid me many times more than what the shop was providing. When I got back into professional train sales, I opted to start The Great Scale Model Train Show with the finest partner anyone could ask for. Show is still quite vialble and now in good hands. I'm enjoying retirement at 76.
Many shops toay purchse stricly from distributors at 40% off, and if they are lucky can get 40/10 (another 10% off)
ATLANTIC CENTRALIt means having what is current - AND - having what no one else has. Very hard to do in today's "preorder" climate.
A shop can preorder for stock if they have the cash flow to do so just like the on line shops.
As far as sitting on stock that is dusty and years old why not have a close out and reinvest in new stock so you will have returning customers?
Which means..
Why should anybody even consider going to a shop that has the same dusty stock they have seen for years?
I believe that everyone is overlooking an important point that is leading to the total demise of the local hobby shop.
True, economics is a leading factor. If the LHS charges full retail price on all of its stock, and if it maintains a limited inventory, it is not going to experience a lot of sales, certainly not enough to support itself.
The Internet and the on line hobby shop has added to the difficulty of operating a brick and mortar LHS. But the on line hobby shop has to maintain inventory as well and, while it isn't faced with rental expenses that a LHS has to deal with, it does have to maintain shipping supplies, the cost of which can be extraordinary in a high volume on line shop. A successful LHS with technical savvy can simultaneously maintain an Internet presence to help its cause.
No, the real problem is not economics or the Internet, it is demographics. There aren't enough customers in a particular locale to support a LHS. If there were, the LHS could discount its prices, maintain a deeper inventory, and bring customers back time after time.
Ten years ago, I had three LHS within a 30 minute drive of my home. I visited all three shops all of the time. They are all closed now. If I had a LHS within 30 minutes driving distance today, I would patronize it all of the time. My closest LHS is a 45 minute drive away, and it charges MSRP - - period. But, the store is huge by LHS standards. It is well stocked. But, when I go in there, I am usually the only customer. The LHS does not have an Internet presence. How much longer can that go on?
Everyone says that they support their LHS or, if they had one, they would support it. Fine. But, there just aren't enough of us to support a LHS. The LHS is a dying breed because we are a dying breed.
And, let's not overlook the fact that Internet shops come and go as well. I keep track of where I buy major items such as locomotives. Many of the Internet shops where I have made purchases are no longer around. They come and go too. The customer base is just too limited.
Sheldon continually raises the offer to start and manage a business if ten of us will each invest $1 million each. Assuming that Sheldon is the retail LHS owner and operator that he says he is, and I don't doubt that, and if he deeply discounts a deep inventory, as he says he will, and I don't doubt that, will the LHS succeed? Probably not. Why? Because there won't be enough customers walking in the door to support the shop.
There just aren't enough of us.
Rich
Alton Junction
Rich,
Of the three shops Howard listed, only one is a "big internet player", but the other two have built national and regional reputations that draw "in store" customers from hours away and mail order/internet/phone customers from all over the country.
My proposed "super store" would also be on the web - no question it would have to be.
BUT, All three of the shops Howard listed predate any serious internet shopping. All three did high volumes of business that supported buying direct from the manufactrurers with only minimal mail order business "back in the day".
One of those shops virtually "invented" the idea of a brick and mortar store that had relatively deep discountds, 20%, way back in the 1960's/70's. People drove hours to get there back then - they still do now. As I said, I shop at these stores, one is 45 minutes from me, the other two are roughly 2 hrs from me.
It is ture many regions of the country may not have enough modelers to support a brick and mortar store of suitable volume to have competitive pricing - that is way I have always said my "super store" would need to be here in the Mid Atlantic or NorthEast where we know for a fact there are more people and more modelers (based on NMRA membership numbers).
And those three shops Howard mentioned are not the only successful brick and mortar, high vloume, discount priced stores in this region - there are a few more. One other store sells mainly at their store and at all the regional shows, again with only a small web/mail order presence.
But again, I agree your average city/town nationwide does not have a suitable customer base to support a "local hobby shop" that has discount prices - you need to be on the web these days.
The LHS {5 miles} to me closed some time ago.
Having worked in it most of my workign life, I DO understand the retail game of supply/demand and markups/pricing policies.
I remember being in there once, bought just only a magazine, and he turned to some other guy there and said "See, I sell a magazine, I make a buck. But it takes a LOT of magazine sales to cover the rent alone."
There is another "LHS" about 45-50 minutes away from who happens to be the brick-n-mortar store of wholesaletrains.com {WST}, the internet supplier. They are a LITTLE out of the way, but sooooo much cheaper than the 5 mile LHS was. I can order and have it relatively quick form them. Gas cost to and from or shipping = the same, in most cases. They recently moved to a different building and reduced inventory greatly I noticed on a recent trip there.
To me, it is easier to just order online and not go out of my way to go anywhere, just "point and click" {bad for my credit card bill, however!} and I am getting that way about almost anything these days. IF I DO buy anything in a store, I often research online first.
The problem I found with the LHS 5 miles away was in special ordering stuff from them, if they didn't have it in stock. I would order, and a month later they would still "not have it in yet". I can order from Walthers, or WSTs and have it much sooner. I found out later the 5 miles LHS only placed orders every other week, or a month to get a better deal for themselves. I don't begrudge them that,but really? No wonder they closed. Shop-warn items, instead of being marked down,were often marked up, with a new sticker on the old one reflecting the "new" price a randy new one might now cost.
Often WSTs just orders and reships to you, if they don't have it in stock on the shelves..THEY can get it to me within a week's time, they don't wait every other week or month to do so, so guess who I favor for that kind of service?
The other thing I think, {and richhotrains metions "there aren't enough of us"} is, that kids today favor those "stoopid" video games, and don't go for "creative outlet hobbies" instead. I'm NOT trying to start a "the hobby is dead" war, but just saying, the kids I know of today want the latest gamer's title, NOT the latest loco release from Athearn or Bachmann or BLI! MAYbe when they get older, or retire, they will want trains as a hobby, only time will tell.
It all comes down to this: who has what I want and can get it to me at the lowest out-of-pocket cost. THAT is about the sumation of everyone's "philosophy"!!
-G .
Just my thoughts, ideas, opinions and experiences. Others may vary.
HO and N Scale.
After long and careful thought, they have convinced me. I have come to the conclusion that they are right. The aliens did it.
Rich and all, one more point - of the three stores Howard listed, the two with the smallest web presence are NOT located in/near a major city.
Blue Ridge Summit PA is in the middle of rural no where, and Gettysburg, while famous for the obvious history, is still a very small town hours from any "city" - if you build it they will come - within reason.
BUT, even the "rural" areas in this part of the country have strong sections of "bedroom suburbia" - there are a lot of people here.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Rich and all, one more point - of the three stores Howard listed, the two with the smallest web presence are NOT located in/near a major city. Blue Ridge Summit PA is in the middle of rural no where, and Gettysburg, while famous for the obvious history, is still a very small town hours from any "city" - if you build it they will come - within reason. BUT, even the "rural" areas in this part of the country have strong sections of "bedroom suburbia" - there are a lot of people here. Sheldon
ATLANTIC CENTRALI'm still waiting for 10 of you to put up a million each and I will open and manage a top notch model train store for you.
Your going to be waiting an aweful long time - but I'm guessing you probably know that already.
For me it's a moot point so I have to mail/online order or visit trains shows. I"m ok with that. My wifes mother had a saying that applies: "you get what you are given!"
If one is indeed blessed with a fully stock hobby shop then one should support it as much as possible
It depends on prices. I'm am not financially able to support fully stocked hobby shops unless they can offer similar prices to MBK prices.
The only thing i like about the Hobby Shops is i can see the loco or rolling stock or whatever, mail order you have to send it back if broken or missing part and that happens all the time with todays models.
Russell
csxns The only thing i like about the Hobby Shops is i can see the loco or rolling stock or whatever, mail order you have to send it back if broken or missing part and that happens all the time with todays models.
I been lucky so far..I never had to send anything back even though several of my Athearn (ex-Roundhouse) FMC boxcars had stirrups laying the car's tray.