Largest home layout in world is...ugggh, Penn Central!

[philnrunt]

Although I hated the black scheme, I loved watching consists of Alcos, F units and an endless parade of color schemes rolling through Anderson In. I lived 2 blocks from the South Anderson Yard, my uncle was an engineer for them, and I would fall asleep listening to the banging of couplers. For all of their problems, i guess you could say Penn Central was and still is one of my favorite RRs.
And I really can't bring myself to complain about a layout that is obviously one of the better ones on the face of the earth, especially when I see how much i havn't accomplished! Seems like a pretty fantastic RR to me.

[ClinchValleySD40]

I still don't understand what's wrong with PC. I'm plenty old enough to remember the PC (and NYC/PRR for that matter, steam on both). If I could start over, I'd do end of PC/start of Conrail. In the early years of Conrail they ran some really great lashups of power from all the different component railroads and plenty of lease stuff.

[AntonioFP45]

ClinchValley,

There's nothing wrong with the PC!

Basically it's just the history that some modelers and railfans bicker about. I assume you already read my posts regarding this. Other than that, enjoy the photos, motive power, and everything else!

I hope that I'll be able to post photos of my Penn Central Metroliners when I'm finished with them.

[bsteel4065]

What interested (or surprised??) me were the problems that were experienced in running trains on the original design. I suppose we assume that because a layout is HUGE and you have a lot of space to play with, then operation should be easy to define. But they had to build on a extra 24' x 32' extension and it used to take 16 hours to stage and set up. (Now 5.) Maybe size really isn't everything after all. The bigger the size the more the problems multiply.
BJS

[Paul3]

clinchvalley wrote:

QUOTE: I still don't understand what's wrong with PC.

and

AntonioFP45 wrote:

QUOTE: There's nothing wrong with the PC!

I've tried to be good, but (with apologies to Popeye) I've had all I can stands, and I can't stands no more! [;)]

Nothing wrong with PC?!?!? Are you joking? Here's a list off the top of my head:

1). Did you know that the last DL109 on the planet was in the process of being purchased by RR preservationist Jim Bradley (who had already saved a half dozen NH Pullmans) and was scrapped by PC instead?

2). Did you know that PC took all the paper records, dating back to the mid-1800's, in the basement of South Station in Boston, and threw them all in the dumpster?

3). Did you know that PC allowed the weeds to get knee high on what is today Amtrak's 150mph RoW? And had plans to single-track everything east of New Haven?

4). Did you know that the Poughkeepsie bridge burned under rather mysterious circumstances, and despite promises that it would be repaired, it hasn't seen a train since? Why? Because it forced shippers to use the B&A bridge up near Albany, adding travel time and increasing profits for PC. Oh, and it screwed the Lehigh & Hudson River, a PC competitor.

5). Did you know that PC illegally ripped up the track connecting the B&A line from Boston to the passenger station at Albany, and was forced to put it back in by the ICC?

6). Did you know that after PC took over the NH, there were suddenly a rash of thefts of NH antiques? An antique clock disappeared from New London station one night. The citizens were outraged, and an elderly lady donated her own clock that closely resembled the NH clock. The next night, it too was stolen.

7). Did you know how many promises of improved services the PC made to the residents and business owners of New England, only to fail to come through? For example, the NH had a good TOFC business between Boston and New York City, yet PC killed it off.

8). Did you know that most PC (mostly ex-PRR) employees treated ex-NH men like dirt? Nevermind that the NH had been in bankruptcy since 1961 (and hadn't made a profit since 1957). The NH was being held together with chewing gum, bailing wire, and the dedication of it's employees. But the PC would show this backwater company how to really run a railroad (and we all know how that turned out).

I could go on, but I think people will get the hint.

The only good thing about PC is that it lasted less than 10 years.

Paul A. Cutler III
*****************
Weather Or No Go New Haven
*****************

[AntonioFP45]

Hello Paul..........

No I'm not joking.........................Read my first post on this thread (where I was responding to CSX MU) and you will note that I stated in more ways than one that Penn Central's managment was VERY CORRUPT! [B)][:0] My uncle left the New York Central before the merger. The "condensed" facts that I stated on page one of this thread supplement what you just listed. And, wow, your detailed facts are right on the money! However my answer to the question "What's wrong with Penn Central" was simply in reference to "modeling the Penn Central".

In modeling the Penn Central, we can forget about the corrupt managment and it's dirty tactics. We can actually have fun and model the HUGE VARIETY of equipment and sevices that Penn Central had. Who else had GG1s, EP5s, Alco PAs, Alco FAs, EMD E7s, E8s, Baldwin Center-Cab Diesels, 3rd rail D.C Boxcabs, Baldwin Centipedes, Alco DL109s......ALL ON THE SAME RAILROAD? , Lot's of modeling possibilities here! [:D]

As stated I've chosen to model only the PC Metroliners because of the sleek way they looked, plus the fact that they ran through my neighborhood in New York back in the late 60s.

Since I am modeling the Seaboard Coast Line's long distance passenger trains, it would be appropriate for me to have at least one Penn Central GG1 for the New York to Washington leg of the trip to Florida. [8D][;)]

Cheers and HIgh Greens!

Cheers!

[Paul3]

AntonioFP45 wrote:

QUOTE: However my answer to the question "What's wrong with Penn Central" was simply in reference to "modeling the Penn Central".

The problem is that "clinchvalley" doesn't seem to be talking about modeling the PC. He is simply repeating the question, "What's wrong with PC?" This question was asked by csxmu ("What is the problem with Penn Central...") and wmlurgan ("Whats wrong with PennCentral."). Clinchvalley's line was, "I still don't understand what's wrong with PC." That, to me, indicates that he was talking about the railroad, not the modeling of it.

QUOTE: In modeling the Penn Central, we can forget about the corrupt managment and it's dirty tactics.

I can't. How can one seperate the railroad from the models? How can one actually model a railroad without asking why certain things were the way they were? It would be like becoming a Civil War re-enactor without knowing anything about the war or why it was fought. How can one be a fan of a railroad and not know or care about the RR's policies?

I model the New Haven, and the NH throughout it's history was no angel. There were times when it was considered a rolling death trap, or a politcal force corrupting public officials. However, there were also good times, glory days as it were. The 1920's, WWII, the 1950's. These were great times on the New Haven, and its what I mostly model.

Penn Central never had those glory days.

Paul A. Cutler III
*****************
Weather Or No Go New Haven
*****************

[Anonymous]

I guess being kinda new to this forum and only having a couple years in building my first layout ,I myself was very impressed not only with the size but the detail of the layout.After all isn't all the work we do to the layout as important as the trains that run on them.The ease at witch you can run the layout and make it enjoyable for all the operators involved.My feelings towards the Penn Central positive or negitive does not distract me from saying nice job Ken.I grew up beside penn central rails,and as a child and young man I enjoyed watching their trains as much as i did conrail.When i moved west while in the service I enjoyed watching the UP stretch long out into the desert.I think you did an exellent job on your layout {hey next time you get pics published take a butane to a couple of your bottom tier locos this will keep the hardliners happy}.

[Anonymous]

THIS IS OUTTA CONTROL!!!!!![soapbox]
Im starting a poll!

[PennsyHoosier]

LOL csxmu! Well, I'm glad you started the poll. And it turns out, PC ain't all that bad. Yes, we all know that all RRs have feet of clay. There is no perfect railroad (only the perfect engine--the K4). So let's appreciate what we had and what we have. Thank goodness for all you folks in MRing, who keep the older images ALIVE!

[KemacPrr]

What interested (or surprised??) me were the problems that were experienced in running trains on the original design. I suppose we assume that because a layout is HUGE and you have a lot of space to play with, then operation should be easy to define. But they had to build on a extra 24' x 32' extension and it used to take 16 hours to stage and set up. (Now 5.) Maybe size really isn't everything after all. The bigger the size the more the problems multiply.
BJS
Actually most layouts go thru changes that the builder didn't see, understand or have knowledge of when first built. The length of setup time required became a nuisance when trying to operate twice a month early on. I run 35-40 car freights as a norm and reblocking ten of those in the old Enola loop became the seed for the addition. Also the length of trains operated made the climb over the old Keating Summit too short for my liking. The addition which was built by me and not they took care of those problems but has added new ones with the need for more operators. Larger op groups can be a bear to manage. I recently got the opportunity to operate on Lee Nicholas UCW and was impressed with the mole staging idea. One of those may be in the rr's future. Right now the signal system is the current project. All in all it's a lot of fun and thats the most important thing to me. -------------------- Ken McCorry

[cisco1]

Ken, the layout is a real beauty! Thanks to MR for letting us all get a glimpse of it. The concept of changing eras as wanted isn't for everyone but still a great idea. Kudos to you for sticking with what you like. If I had access to all that space I'd probably go nuts trying to fit in the Rathole division, Sandpatch, Horseshoe Curve, the Georgetown Loop and Tehahcapi![^][tup]

[AntonioFP45]

QUOTE: Originally posted by PennsyHoosier

LOL csxmu! Well, I'm glad you started the poll. And it turns out, PC ain't all that bad. Yes, we all know that all RRs have feet of clay. There is no perfect railroad (only the perfect engine--the K4). So let's appreciate what we had and what we have. Thank goodness for all you folks in MRing, who keep the older images ALIVE!

10-4 on that PennsyHossier! Just one "little" clincher. I thought that it was the streamlined NYC J3a HUDSON! (Oh-oh! I'm in trouble now!)

[AntonioFP45]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Paul3

AntonioFP45 wrote:

QUOTE: However my answer to the question "What's wrong with Penn Central" was simply in reference to "modeling the Penn Central".

QUOTE: In modeling the Penn Central, we can forget about the corrupt managment and it's dirty tactics.

How can one seperate the railroad from the models? How can one actually model a railroad without asking why certain things were the way they were? It would be like becoming a Civil War re-enactor without knowing anything about the war or why it was fought. How can one be a fan of a railroad and not know or care about the RR's policies? Penn Central never had those glory days.

Paul A. Cutler III

----

Good, intelligent points, but we're in this hobby for FUN. It's possible to model railroads like the Penn Central, care and be knowledgeable about its history, and not be overwhelmingly concerned about its policies.

I grew up in PC territory until I moved to Florida.[;)] As a kid, I was oblivious to all of the junk that was going on back then. I just remember seeing the trains rolling by, riding them with my family and enjoying them. I wasn't even aware that the NH was by then a "rolling deathtrap" as everytime I saw NH passenger trains, they were "zipping by" quietly behind FL-9s or EP-5s. (Those EP-5s did need a paint job!) But having read a little bit of the book "The Wreck of the Penn Central" it is not surprising. The facts you stated are in this book.

I understand what you are stating (I hope). But in my humble opinion, you almost make it sound like modeling the PC is almost like modeling the horrid aftermath of the Europeon battle fields just after WWII. I doubt if Penn Central modelers dwell on the bad history as very quickly and operating session would become quite depressing!

Many of modelers on This Forum model the Union Pacific. THEY KNOW WHAT'S GOING ON [:0]----the lawsuits, the deliberate effort to disregard Amtrak schedules, the incredible hostility towards railfans, the poor treatment of the small shippers,[V]-----yet these modelers while knowledgeable about UP's "lousy-points", they choose not to dwell on it but rather enjoy the paint scheme, locomotives, rolling stock, and rich history. [8D] IMHO, this same point can apply to anyone modeling the PC. Nothing more!

When (hopefully) I run my finished Penn Central Metroliners on someone's layout, I hope that the host or visiting modelers don't say "Blah! Penn Central!" [:(!][V] I would hope that they might say, "Nice paint job!" "Decent detail!" "Sleek looking train!" "Hey, I remember those years back!"

*****************

Cheers, Peace and High Greens! [:)][:D][8D][8)]

[Anonymous]

In response to some of the PC "bashing"...

I was too young to remember the glory years of the NH , PRR, or NYC. My earliest experience of all three were in the 60's when the NH was already bankrupt and NYC/PRR were in dire straits..and it showed!! Somehow I got to love all three and when they became one, I no longer had to choose. I had one favorite.

As a child, It was a Penn Central engineer who gave me a cab ride up the Hudson in a PC E-8, a PC yard crew in former NH territory that showed me how they shoved hunks of wood under the rails to keep their RS-3 on the tracks. I in turn showed off my new HO scale PC boxcar I had just purchased with allowance money. Crews always seemed friendly towards a kid with an interest in the railroad.

This is why I found fascination with the PC and model it today. I don't care what happened or who was to blame. That is for the history books. I just want to model PC as I remember it....well maybe a little cleaner!!

Most of us have a favorite road that has been gobbled up in a mega merger and it may be fun to bash successors for a number of reasons, but that is what is great about model railroading, because we can pick whatever road and time period we want. Ken McCorry is doing just that with a super layout!!

Rob

[AntonioFP45]

So well put, PCRR4627

[Paul3]

AntonioFP45 wrote:

QUOTE: Good, intelligent points, but we're in this hobby for FUN. It's possible to model railroads like the Penn Central, care and be knowledgeable about its history, and not be overwhelmingly concerned about its policies.

How can modeling the PC be fun? Depressing, yes. Fun? Not really. How many modelers actually model the Great Depression? Few, indeed. The early 1970's were not good times for the railroads just like the early 1930's. Train-offs, abandonments, poor service, rust, decay... Ick. All while promising the moon and delivering (spoiled) cottege cheese. Double ick.

QUOTE: I wasn't even aware that the NH was by then a "rolling deathtrap" as everytime I saw NH passenger trains, they were "zipping by" quietly behind FL-9s or EP-5s. (Those EP-5s did need a paint job!)

That "rolling deathtrap" was in reference to the dark days of the early 20th century on the New Haven, when profits ruled over safety, and the NH had to forced to add signal systems and steel cars.

And "zipping by quietly"??? Are you sure you are talking about the NH's EP-5's? They weren't called "Jets" for nothing (like a 707 on take off so I've been told).

QUOTE: But in my humble opinion, you almost make it sound like modeling the PC is almost like modeling the horrid aftermath of the Europeon battle fields just after WWII.

You mean it isn't? [:)] It might as well be. A darker time in RR history is hard to find.

QUOTE: I doubt if Penn Central modelers dwell on the bad history as very quickly and operating session would become quite depressing!

That's PC for you, dark and depressing. It never got better until after Conrail and the Stagger's Act. Besides, I wonder how many PC modelers take the time to properly weather their equipment with that black water color paint? Or take the time to plant all the weeds between the rails? Or the abandoned factory buildings and general state of disrepair?

QUOTE: Many of modelers on This Forum model the Union Pacific. THEY KNOW WHAT'S GOING ON ----the lawsuits, the deliberate effort to disregard Amtrak schedules, the incredible hostility towards railfans, the poor treatment of the small shippers,-----yet these modelers while knowledgeable about UP's "lousy-points", they choose not to dwell on it but rather enjoy the paint scheme, locomotives, rolling stock, and rich history. IMHO, this same point can apply to anyone modeling the PC. Nothing more!

Just goes to show, now doesn't it? [;)] I have no idea why people model the modern UP any more than people model the PC. There are a 170 years of railroading to model, why pick the most depressing roads and eras to model?

QUOTE: When (hopefully) I run my finished Penn Central Metroliners on someone's layout, I hope that the host or visiting modelers don't say "Blah! Penn Central!"

I guess you better not show them to me. [:D] Actually, I will probably ask, why not paint them PRR or Amtrak? Why PC, of all things?

pcrr4627 wrote:

QUOTE: I was too young to remember the glory years of the NH , PRR, or NYC. My earliest experience of all three were in the 60's when the NH was already bankrupt and NYC/PRR were in dire straits..and it showed!!

I'm too young to remember the PC (being born in 1975 rather does that). My earliest experiences were Conrail, Amtrak, and the MBTA. But I model the New Haven. At least the NH looked good at least once in their history. PC never looked good for it's 8-9 years.

QUOTE: As a child, It was a Penn Central engineer who gave me a cab ride up the Hudson in a PC E-8, a PC yard crew in former NH territory that showed me how they shoved hunks of wood under the rails to keep their RS-3 on the tracks.

To keep the RS-3 on the tracks, they need blocks of wood? My goodness, PC was worse than I thought! [:D][;)]

QUOTE: This is why I found fascination with the PC and model it today. I don't care what happened or who was to blame. That is for the history books. I just want to model PC as I remember it....well maybe a little cleaner!!

That, to me, is sad.

QUOTE: Most of us have a favorite road that has been gobbled up in a mega merger and it may be fun to bash successors for a number of reasons, but that is what is great about model railroading, because we can pick whatever road and time period we want. Ken McCorry is doing just that with a super layout!!

Well, folks will always do what they want. People also have a fascination with the Titanic, Ford Pintos, Penn Central, and other disasters, so I guess who am I to judge? [:p]

Paul A. Cutler III
*****************
Weather Or No Go New Haven
*****************

[AntonioFP45]

Paul3,

Well, the reason I'm modeling Penn Central Metroliners? Because they looked sharp! The "Metros" didn't even run in regular service while under Pennsy ownership as there were still mechanical checks and repairs they were undergoing. Penn Central got those girls going...........and could they run! No other railroad in the U.S in 1970 was running passenger trains at 110+ plus miles per hour!
(Yes, they still had glitches afterwards, but were tiny compared to Amtrak's)

EP5 Jets? Of course they were loud and sounded NEAT! My reference: The track in the northeast corridor portion that went through New York City was still in good enough condition that passenger trains, instead of loudly "clickety-clacking" through my neighborhood made more of a muffled "thumpety-thump" sound at about 70 m.p.h.

Anyway, you wonder what's my fascination.......I WAS THERE! BTW: I also got to see those huge, hulking orange and white E33s. To a kid like me in that time period, was like a kid today seeing the space shuttle up close! Remember Paul, most of us model from childhood memories!

Peace out!

[darth9x9]

I have the opportunity to see Ken's layout this week. I can't wait! I want to his helpers in action. I'll let you all know what new stuff I learn from my visit.

I do have to criticize the editing staff for choosing a cover shot where the track has no ballast! (look at the track going under the bridge) What was Kalmbach thinking????

[Anonymous]

I really need to pick up this issue, It should be nice to see penn central not decaying and falling to peices.

[PennsyHoosier]

Antonio is spot on with his comments. Ya, the PC had all kinds of problems and caused still more. On the other hand, it is a bit of history that we should and must remember. Maybe the memories are bad for some (pretty much so for me--I still get depressed thinking about it), but if someone wants to model this, more power to them.

[PennsyHoosier]

QUOTE: Originally posted by AntonioFP45
10-4 on that PennsyHossier! Just one "little" clincher. I thought that it was the streamlined NYC J3a HUDSON! (Oh-oh! I'm in trouble now!)

No trouble. I learned in Latin class the phrase de gustibus non est disputandem--you can't argue with taste. K4s ROCK, but J3a Hudsons are beautiful machines! [:)]

[Sunset Limited]

I too enjoyed the Penn Central layout. Remember like some have said through some responses 'It's your railroad'! It's your world!! You can change the history. If you want to build Penn Central as a successor. Then do so, It's your railroad. I still can believe my railroad 'SP' was swallowed up by UP! That will not change my layout- SP is still king! Also If you want to make your layout without those extra life realities like graffitti, trash etc. Then do so. It's good to be different. I like seeing short lines, modelers own fictitious railroad. It's fine!!! Great layout !

[AntonioFP45]

Ditto, EZMora

I was beginning to worry that I was one of the few on here that was advocating: Know the history but if the railroad didn't attempt to commit genocide, ENJOY THE MODELING!

[Anonymous]

I owe my love for railroading to the Penn Central.

I was only 5 years old when my mother took me on my first trip out from 30th St. station to Paoli. I remember the smell of grease and creosote when I stepped onboard the MP-54. I remember the ear piercing whine of those electric motors as we slowly made our way towards the Main Line. I remember the faded worms on black locomotives blasting by as I waived at the engineers and passengers. I remember seeing trains bounce through the switches of Zoo Tower for hours as I watched from my Great Aunt's bedroom window.

I knew nothing about the problems that plagued that railroad, and I didn't care. I loved what I saw, smelled, and felt, and it has had a lasting impression on me.

I now model the PRR, but the hardest thing for me to do is identify with it. Photographs cannot proxy for the indelible memories of those days riding PC rails. The more I remember those times, the more I wi***o recreate them - the memories.

The Penn Central is what it is. It certainly is not the greatest economic or business model to be found in railroading. However, they ran trains. Many people saw them run and were inspired to model them - to artistically re-create the feelings, sounds, sights, and even smells associated with their personal experience.

Isn't that what this hobby is all about? If the PC happens to be the railroad that happened to inspire people to get into the hobby, then why knock it?

I love all things trains thanks to that shabby railroad! [:D]

[Anonymous]

Hmmmmm. According to some of the posters here, no railroad should ever be modeled. If lines with a shakey financial footing are to be avoided, the that Burgess guy with his Yosemite Valley RR layout is making a big mistake as are many of the narrow gauge guys. Should anyone model any southern line prior to the mid 60's when those railroads forced minorities to sit in designated cars? Should anyone model Pullman's given the result of the Pullman Strike? How many railroads have been found negligent after an accident that caused millions of dollars of damage and the death of citizens? I think it would be very rare indeed to find any railroad that has a clear past.

[Anonymous]

We won't even address the hesitation that nearly all the railroads had to installing the modern coupler which would allow cars to be coupled and uncoupled without havingt employees step between the cars and use the link and pin things. How many lives, arms, fingers, hands etc were lost because the couplers were more expensive than hiring a new person? I doubt anyone could point to any railroad that has a totally clear history when looked at one perspective or another (financially, socially, economically, environmentally etc etc).

Of course knowing the past of our particular railroad is way for us to learn the history of this country and pass it along to visitors. - both good and bad (which would quickly dispell any notions that our visitors may have about us just "playing with trains). What a great way to stimulate conversation ! (why no caboose? why aren't there walkways on the more modern box cars? why did the movement of coal out of pennsylvania decrease so much? why did passenger service disappear?).

[Paul3]

dkelly wrote:

QUOTE: Hmmmmm. According to some of the posters here, no railroad should ever be modeled.

No need to mince words here, I'm the one that questioned modeling depressing railroads.

Note that I didn't say no railroad should ever be modeled. I have questioned why people model certain RR's, but I have never questioned their right to model whatever they want.

Now, to PC. The PC was a mistake from Day 1 to Conrail. It should never have happened in the first place, and their implementation of the merger was a joke. My point with all that is that there was never a good day on the PC. IIRC, they were losing a million dollars a day, every day. PC's entire existance was one failure after another.

The NH, in comparison, had just as many problems as the PC. The NH was reviled back around WWI, and was in deep trouble after 1961. However, between WWI and the 1960's, the NH was one of the best RR's in America (it was 3rd in passengers carried despite being only 30th in size).

That, to me, is the gigantic differance between the PC and the NH. The NH had good years, and even good decades of service. The PC had 8-9 miserable years.

If CR had never happened (and PC got the government loans and the Stagger's Act passed), the PC could have become a good railroad and no one would ever question why someone would model PC. That didn't happen.

The point is that by modeling the PC, you are modeling only failure, and what's the fun in that?

Paul A. Cutler III
*****************
Weather Or No Go New Haven
*****************

[Anonymous]

I think that others have hit the nail on the head. They model the railroads that bring them good memories. Either trainwatching as a kid, or their first train ride or the train going through the neighborhood they grew up with. Modeling failure? How about modeling an effort to avoid failure. Too bad they didn't make it. Perhaps it took the failure of PC to get the government more involved with the loans and Stagger's act. How many railroads were saved because PC's failure woke everyone? Would that be a failure then? It took the destruction of Penn Station in NYC to get the ball rolling on historic preservation.

Yes, the PC was a financial failure from day 1 and perhaps a management failure also, but like I asked above . .. what about the railroads that were willing participants with racism? That's ok if they were financial successes? The Norfolk Western was a powerhouse during the time they took advantage of cheap black labor and prison folks to build tunnels. Somehow that to me is worse than throwing away a bunch of papers in a station basement or selling a diesel before some guy to purchase it. But because they had economic good years that's an ok line to model?

Yes, every railroad had its ugly side. Be it economic, management, social whatever. What does make modeling a railroad fun is the memories that it invokes in its owner.

[slotracer]

Very nice layout, but it could have been perfect without the PC engines. Would love to see EL lashups of mixed bags of GP35's GP7's and RS-3s with maybe a cab unit tossed in, or ABBA EL F's or SD's on an intermodal....maybe LV lashups of different makes, and U23's on a mercury, or Snowbirds or yellow jackets on a large manifest.

For many of us who were around then, the EL and LV offered somehting with heritage and character, a history and linieage, outside the blah paint scheme, lousy herald and bad management at PC, I suppose PC represented RR's of the future. Companies devoid of character and roots. I recall at the time the C word took ovr on April Fools day, I had gotten a new 35mm SLR and was getting my license to drive. We spent many hours shooting the LV and EL, and after april fools day 76 we shot D&H. NEver once pointed a lense at PC, not even the alco sw's and RS's and F units, and I have not kicked myself yet for passing over anything PC. Nice layout, but would love to see the colorful railroads with history behind them is all......