Largest home layout in world is...ugggh, Penn Central!

[FJ and G]

Featured in the December 2004 Model Railroader Magazine.

Despite the fascination w/PC, it's really a quite lovely layout. A lot of good attention to detail despite its massive size. Takes 25 operators to make all the trains go choo choo.

[cmrproducts]

The interesting thing about the layout is that it is listed as a Pennsy layout but now it is PC and Conrail. So what is it?

PRR
PC
Conrail

BOB H Clarion, PA

[Anonymous]

What is the problem with Penn Central if it wasnt for them their would possibly never been such a railroad called CONRAIL

[FJ and G]

The data page in the magazine lists it as Penn Central. However, it is both evolving towards Conrail (some of the operators have actual Conrail 1:1 experience) and ironically, it is evolving backwards to the steam era.

But for now, it is primarily Penn Central, presumably so he can run the many fine NYC and PRR trains simultaneously (as well as the mating worms RR), following the prototype.

[Anonymous]

I know, I was dissapointed to see that it was Penn Central. He says he may backdate to the Pennsy Steam Era, though. Now that'd be cool.

[Anonymous]

I missed something because I don't see why its so upsetting. I like it. Whats wrong with PennCentral. PRR PC CONRAIL all ran on the same trackage. I may be wrong but didn't the Cumberland Valley railroad as well.....

[AggroJones]

Man. All that area and he models Penn Central. What a waste of space......[:p]

Transition era Espee or even UP would've been much better. Imagine, a ABBA set of BlackWidow F7s on the point of a 100 PFE reefer block thundering up Donner Pass. 60 cars back is an AC-12 and at the end, an AC-6 just ahead of the caboose.

A space of that size could be put to better use. [;)]

At least if he backdated it to Pennsy in the '50s he could inclued a few J1s.

[Anonymous]

I, for one, think it's great![:D]
I am a former Pennsy modeler, now reabilitated.[^] Early on I was sucked into the Pennsy metality, as soooo many of us east coast modelers are. I'm glad to see someone else pulled out and picked what HE liked, and not what everybody else was doing!![:p]
I'm not saying there is anything wrong with modeling Pennsy, but as my Momma used to say " If Jimmy Finegan jumped off the Empire State Building, would you do it too??" [(-D][oops]
Thanks Ma!

[PennsyHoosier]

Some of us midwesterners get sucked into that Pennsy mentality, too. [;)] I drive under the PRR overpass in Fort Wayne regularly. It is extremely cool! [8D]

It is a fine layout--very nicely done. PennCentral is just fine, as far as I'm concerned.

At least he didn't waste the space on another [censored] UP layout. [angel]

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: At least he didn't waste the space on another UP layout.

My thoughts exactly!![#ditto]

[dano99a]

QUOTE: Originally posted by csxmu

QUOTE: At least he didn't waste the space on another UP layout.

My thoughts exactly!![#ditto]

HAHAHAHHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHA, sorry I thought that was pretty funny.

It is in fact a nice layout, I could really care less if it was PC or UP or PRR or C&O or B&O or ATSF or SF or Espee or BNSF or, or, or NNGDVCHBSLKVNFVJHBFV......
[:)]


it is a really nice layout that I can only dream of owning something like it someday or even better own the house that it lives in.... [:)]

[twhite]

I think the layout is very cool. Of course, I would have done Tennessee Pass or the Moffat Tunnel or Donner Summit, but what the hey--PennCentral and if he decides to back-date, he can run all those neat Hudsons and Niagara's and maybe even some B&A 2-8-4's, along with all of those neat Pennsy J-1's and M1-A's and GG-1's. I mean, let's face it, gang, he could have done ANOTHER Sherman Hill--
Tom

[jdtractorboy]

Hehe,

You guys all crack me up. Its a good thing we dont have to model the same rr! My thoughts on his layout is that the motive power, cars, and general railroad appearance ARE TOO WELL MAINTAINED FOR PENN CENTRAL!!!! I always thought it would be cool to model Penn Central because of all the bashed up, doors missing off locos, missing glass, etc. types of equipment you could have on the layout.

My $.02

Chuck

[Vampire]

Actually I think he has forward-dated the layout. He was running Pennsy steam and diesels when the layout was first featured in April 1999 MR. In a few more years it might have Conrail loco's running.

Kudo's to the builders of this empire. An impressive feat no matter what railroad you favor.

[railman]

oh, the things that make you go hmmm....

actually, more power to him for having such an empire. We may have doubts, but at the end of the day it's his trains rounding those miles of track we only wish we had space for!

All in good humor.

[KemacPrr]

I'm enjoying the comments about the rr. To set the facts straight I modeled the PRR in the 1962 -1968 era when the rr was built in 1992. I had modeled this era from a previous layout since 1984. I ran the PRR era until late 1998 when I started the slow transition to PC. I viewed the PC as a stop along the way to modeling Conrail in the 1977-1981 time frame. I currently model the Conrail 1977-1981time period. I don't see myself moving any further forward in time with the Conrail era. I have picked up a few of the BLI PRR steamers ( M-1, J-1 and T-1 ) so far . If I did decide to backdate I would do the 1956 era for freight and the 1952 era for passenger. I still have most of the PRR cab units from my earlier era so they will fit right in with the steam. ---------------Ken McCorry

[AntonioFP45]

QUOTE: Originally posted by csxmu

What is the problem with Penn Central if it wasnt for them their would possibly never been such a railroad called CONRAIL

Hi, CSXMU

I'll try and explain some of the reactions here. I was around back then, though as a kid.

Within a few years after the Penn Central came into being, the railroad deteriorated rapidly. There was a lot of corruption within the management and union teams, freight revenues were steadily dropping due to increased highway competition, tracks and road beds were way behind in maintenance. Yet, the Interstate Commerce Commision forced them to continue operting on money losing branch lines. As had been happening for years, talented managers in the passenger area were lured away by the airline industry.

Additionally, Penn Central was "basically" coerced by the merger terms to take over the already bankrupt New Haven railroad. So with an apathetic, arrogant management team that didn't make a strong enough effort to correct the problems, the railroad was doomed.

This is why so many of us today that are over 35 that remember the old PC usually say "Penn Central?!" [B)] and then shake our heads, though we often still cheri***he memories of the those black EP5s, GG1s and green MP54s that were still running around. They did have a huge varied fleet of Alcos, EMDs, GEs, Baldwins, and Faribanks Morse locomotives though many were quickly heading to the scrap heap or being traded; including the famous Baldwin Centipedes (while attractive, were mechanical nightmares).

PC symbolized the "sun setting" on 3 once famous, well respected railroads: New York Central, Pennsylvania, New York-New Haven& Hartford. Bankruptcy was announced in the early 70s. (73 or 74?) It was infamously dubbed "The largest bankruptcy in U.S history" at that time! My uncle, who was a New York Central "motorman" left before the merger and went to work driving New York City subway trains. He apparently saw the "writing on the wall".

Oddly enough, one of the bright spots of the Penn Central years were the introduction of the 110 m.p.h Metroliners. Inspite of mechanical problems, these attractive and luxury seating trains were a hit with business travelers in the northeast corridor. For you young-uns, the Budd Metroliners were the "ancestor" of the Amfleet cars that you see running in Amtrak trains today.

I'm currently painting and detailing an HO set of Bachmann Metroliners in the "Penn Central" stainless steel scheme using the Alclad metalizer.

There was a book published called "The wreck of the Penn Central". May be out of print but can likely be found in libraries. Very thick and detailed. Stories are not very pretty.

But to those of you that model Penn Central, please, don't be turned off by what I'm saying. It's just good to know history. I have many fond memories of watching PC trains back in those days when I was growing up in New York.

Oddly, the creation of Conrail was hailed as a joke. But within a decade nobody was laughing at Conrail! It did become a transportation giant to be reckoned with. Some say IBM was known as "Big Blue". Well in railroad and railfan circles we affectionately coined Conrail with that nickname. I was very sad to see it dissappear into NS and CSX.

Cheers and Peace, Amigos!

[Ibflattop]

Whoo cares if its the Penn Central, Its still a Model Railroad!!!!!!!!!!! :-) Kevin

[AntonioFP45]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Ibflattop

Whoo cares if its the Penn Central, Its still a Model Railroad!!!!!!!!!!! :-) Kevin

[#ditto][:D][tup][4:-)][tup][C):-)][tup][swg][tup]

[Anonymous]

In its time, Penn Central was the largest railroad, so why not the largest model RR?
I can only dream of a layout this size, but am inspired to continue building my own Penn Central basement Empire. I'm stuck in a strict time period due to the area and structures I model. I can go backwards in time from PC but not forward. I like the fact that Ken has such flexibility to model Conrail as well.

Yes, there are PC fans!!! Great layout!!

Rob

[chutton01]

QUOTE: Originally posted by KemacPrr

I ran the PRR era until late 1998 when I started the slow transition to PC. I viewed the PC as a stop along the way to modeling Conrail in the 1977-1981 time frame. I currently model the Conrail 1977-1981time period.

Well Ken, I'm gonna have to agree with jdtractorboy on this one - from the mid-60s till the mid-80s a lot of Northeast railroading was pretty ragged and rough looking (not saying it's all peaches and cream nowadays). When I looked at the cover, I immediately thought to myself 'Penn Central'? Where's the weeds and junk in the ballast? Why is the track rather level and smooth looking. Why are the engines so lightly weathered, and the concrete abutment and bridges rather free of stains and graffiti? And not a single brunt-out rusted automobile abandoned along the ROW? (Well, to be fair, perhaps there are some on the portions of your layout not pictured). Heck, I grew up in New York during the 70s, and I definitely remember it being rather grimy (even the good parts) - Pennsylvania was pretty much the same...

Then again, I guess if you really wanted mega-decrepit, perhaps you could have modeled the CNJ before it got some grants to rebuild and repair in the mid-1970s.

[Anonymous]

I've always liked Ken's layout, regardless of era. As for Penn Central, you wouldn't believe how many times I hear "I'd rather have Penn Central around instead of NS" by railfans and employees alike.

[jfugate]

I've seen Ken's layout in person and it's a mighty impressive well done model railroad, regardless of what he's modeling.

Although I don't think his is the largest. If I recall correctly, Bruce Chubbs new Sunset Valley is 2800 square feet ... which puts it ahead of Ken's layout, I believe.

See this link:
http://members.tripod.com/mr_layouts/sunset_valley.htm

Notice at the bottom, it mentions the size 2800 sq. feet.

I think that makes it larger.

[espeefoamer]

My 2 cents worth about PENN CENTRAL: Any railroad that ran GG1s can' t be all bad[8D]!!!

[PennsyHoosier]

Ken, it's a GREAT layout. I truly appreciated the story on it. [:)]

[KemacPrr]

The article did have some mistakes in it. Actually the sq. ft. is now 3120 with the addition. I think Bruce Chubbs is very close to the same size. I had the privlidge of operating there 2 years ago and was floored by the progress he has made in a short time. As the article says it's not about size . By the ay the signal project is moving along faster than I had hoped for. Signals are in and operating Delevan to Turtle Point as of this evening. -------Ken

[AntonioFP45]

QUOTE: Originally posted by AggroJones

Man. All that area and he models Penn Central. What a waste of space......[:p]

Transition era Espee or even UP would've been much better. Imagine, a ABBA set of BlackWidow F7s on the point of a 100 PFE reefer block thundering up Donner Pass. 60 cars back is an AC-12 and at the end, an AC-6 just ahead of the caboose.

A space of that size could be put to better use. [;)]

At least if he backdated it to Pennsy in the '50s he could inclued a few J1s.

Aggrojones, good to see you posting, amigo!

But come on, let's give him a little slack. We have to remember that a lot of modelers are not too aware (or don't care) about Penn Central's "rough topsy-turvy" years. They just want to see the trains run and capture the images. As I mentioned on the 1st page of this post, Penn Central had a HUGE fleet of Diesel locomotives, Electric locomotives, and electric M.U cars from nearly ALL of the manufacturers. You had to feel sorry for those poor mechanics and electricians!

So if a modeler enjoys motive power variety, Penn Central is a good way to go! Plus let's not forget that a lot of Penn Central equipment stayed in their predecessor railroad colors through the early 70s, so a modeler can easily get away with running NYC (black or cigarband), Pennsylvania, or NH (McGinnis) equipment (heavily weathered of course) and claim that its "reasonably prototypical".

Look at the possiblities for passenger operations. You can run New Haven or PC trains in one session and say that it's just before 1971. You can run Amtrak trains in another session and say that it's just after 1971 (though no Superliner cars)

Just a thought!

Peace![:)][:D][8D][8)]

[FJ and G]

Antonio

Nice explanation. About the only thing I might differ with is that the Metroliners were actually ushered in by PRR.

I lived about 10 miles from Fonda NY and have lots of pictures of PCs rolling thru the Mohawk Valley incl passenger trains with just 2 cars

[Leon Silverman]

Don't knock the PRR ancestry of this layout. Had it been modeled after the Union Pacific, there would be the threat of trademark infringement or licensing fees.

[AntonioFP45]

QUOTE: Originally posted by FJ and G

Antonio

Nice explanation. About the only thing I might differ with is that the Metroliners were actually ushered in by PRR.

I lived about 10 miles from Fonda NY and have lots of pictures of PCs rolling thru the Mohawk Valley incl passenger trains with just 2 cars

Hello FJ&G,

Thanks! And yes, you're correct. In fact, I have a picture of Metroliner Car #800 with the Pennsy Keystone on the end. One of my Bachmann Metroliner models that I'm metalizing will be this car.

BTW: If you want to see some nice shots of the Budd Metroliners go to www.railpictures.net and in the "Keyword" box just type in Metroliner. One of the pictures is of #800----looking pretty!

What I was pointing out, though, was that Penn Central got the credit for the Metroliner service as by the time they were rolling regularly in Full Service and establishing their reputation, the merger had occured and the black PC "Worms" were put on the cab ends of the "Metros".

Cheers and High Greens! [:)][:D][8D][;)][8)]