I worked as a store manager in retail many years ago, when the internet was in its infancy. Our store was hugely successful, but in a very competitve industry (video rental). Some things never change. And the biggest thing that never changes is the certainty of change.
Many or most brick and mortar owners just don't adapt to change. And many of them are lousy businesspeople to begin with. Any business owner with dead stock should be slapped in the back of the head. Yes, you paid your distributor $175 for that loco you're selling for $200, but if you can't move it at that price, you need to find a way to move it, or you're out $175. Period. Inventory is like seafood. After it's been there a while, it really begins to stink.
And BTW, these huge online places (like Amazon) have overhead, pay rent and taxes, and salaries just like the little guys. If they're not renting space, they're forking out large amounts of capital to buy it. They just have a better business model for moving product.
The LHS has two big advantages over the internet: instant gratification and expertise. Most LHS owners miss the boat on both of these, as reading the last 3 pages of posts will show. My boss used to press us mercilessly to stay up on movies, because he knew what separated him from the competition was that he had employees who would engage customers, make recommendations, and be able to answer questions like "What was that movie starring Nicholas Cage and Cher?". That store drove all the other small guys out of business, and competed successfully with Blockbuster. Sadly, retailers seem to have lost the bubble on this.
The problem with expertise is that people want to go in to your store, use your expertise, and then go order it on line for cheaper (there actually is a business term for this, although it escapes my mind at the moment). It's what's killing Best Buy. Thing is, though, this can be mitigated by well-trained, enthusiastic staff. Stick with the customer, be enthusiastic and friendly (not grumpy that he's interfering with your game of Candy Crush), and if he seems disinclined to purchase, try to close the sale -- and empowering employees to deal really helps here. When you can say, on the spot, "I'll tell you what, I can let you have it for 10% off" really helps.
Unfortunately, having the resources to have an inventory big enough for "instant gratification", and the savvy to keep changing out that inventory to follow what does move (lower inventory quantities with more frequent reorders also helps, but is more labor intensive), as well as the time,knowledge, and inclination to train your staff to the level required, is more than a lot of business owners want to do these days.
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"If you think you can do a thing or think you can't do a thing, you're right." -- Henry Ford
IRONROOSTER riogrande5761 I live in Manassas and have lived in the Herdon, Chantilly area since 2009 and haven't found any hobby shops worth going to except for very basic stuff like Atlas sectional track, track nails or rail joiners. There was a decent shop south of Springfield on the way to Ft Belvoir, but it closed a year or so ago. I have heard there is a shop in Ashburn that I haven't been to yet, so I'll have to see if it is anygood, but my expectations are low. Do you know of any shops I have missed? Mostly I go to the Timonium show or the occasional Greenberg show, or mailorder - and occasional trips to MBK if I'm already in the area for the T-show. The shop near Ft Belvoir - Trains Etc - sold some (maybe all) of his stock to the hobby shop in Warrenton. But the Warrenton shop this year has reduced it's store size to less than half and no longer has a decent stock of trains - less than a quarter of the new store area. Most (all?) of his train stuff has been on the shelves a long time at list price. The Train Depot on Willard Road in Chantilly and KMA Junction in Manassas are the only all train shops that I know of in Northern Virginia. Both are small and seem to focus more on 3-rail O gauge. Like you, I mostly buy at train shows and online. Enjoy Paul
riogrande5761 I live in Manassas and have lived in the Herdon, Chantilly area since 2009 and haven't found any hobby shops worth going to except for very basic stuff like Atlas sectional track, track nails or rail joiners. There was a decent shop south of Springfield on the way to Ft Belvoir, but it closed a year or so ago. I have heard there is a shop in Ashburn that I haven't been to yet, so I'll have to see if it is anygood, but my expectations are low. Do you know of any shops I have missed? Mostly I go to the Timonium show or the occasional Greenberg show, or mailorder - and occasional trips to MBK if I'm already in the area for the T-show.
I live in Manassas and have lived in the Herdon, Chantilly area since 2009 and haven't found any hobby shops worth going to except for very basic stuff like Atlas sectional track, track nails or rail joiners. There was a decent shop south of Springfield on the way to Ft Belvoir, but it closed a year or so ago. I have heard there is a shop in Ashburn that I haven't been to yet, so I'll have to see if it is anygood, but my expectations are low. Do you know of any shops I have missed? Mostly I go to the Timonium show or the occasional Greenberg show, or mailorder - and occasional trips to MBK if I'm already in the area for the T-show.
The shop near Ft Belvoir - Trains Etc - sold some (maybe all) of his stock to the hobby shop in Warrenton. But the Warrenton shop this year has reduced it's store size to less than half and no longer has a decent stock of trains - less than a quarter of the new store area. Most (all?) of his train stuff has been on the shelves a long time at list price.
The Train Depot on Willard Road in Chantilly and KMA Junction in Manassas are the only all train shops that I know of in Northern Virginia. Both are small and seem to focus more on 3-rail O gauge.
Like you, I mostly buy at train shows and online.
Enjoy
Paul
I rely on Hobby Works in Fairfax for things like paint, tools, and scenic supplies. Only thing I wish they carried was Evergreen styrene. They have Plastruct.
I miss the local "Mom & Pop" train shops that used to be all over Southern California! The bigs shops are still here; Allied, Whistle Stop, Train Shack, etc. But, I am not sure it was only economics that killed them. I lot of the ones I frequented the owners either retired or passed on. I know I paid more for items there, but the cost of the item came with service, advice, & friendly conversation. I used to have a job that required me to travel all over Southern California and I knew where they all were. And, the owners all knew me! It was fun.
I have to confess I mostly buy online now. Mostly Caboose, Trainworld, Fifer, Ebay, Amazon, Walthers, etc. I also buy direct from Manufacturers.
I get advice from this forum, You Tube, etc. But, it isn't the same.
I too would be interested in thoughts from Hobby business people. I wonder if there perspective would indicate the hobby is dying? I am in my sixties and don't know if there are a lot of young people interested in it any more?
I got into a conversation with the owner of the one hobby store near me. He said he makes most of his business on RC cars and aircraft now. He still has a "train guy" working for him but that business has really softened. He didn't know if the hobby was dying or had just moved on line. Has anyone done a study on that?
Tim
Howdy.
A wise hose fellow that used to run the hobby store where I live once told me:"The only way to make a small fortune in the model railroad hobby shop business is to start with a large fortune."
I miss that fellow.
Jaime
NittanyLion IRONROOSTER Hobby shops are dying. I've watched the number decline in Northern Virginia for over 40 years. The train oriented ones that are left are mostly 3-rail O gauge. There are a few general hobby shops such as Hobby Town around, but they too are decreasing. I think the future is hobby shows and Internet shops plus a few very large shops in areas with lots of hobbyists. Paul Why would I wait until Saturday to drive from Alexandria to Fairfax, Chantilly, or Manassass and then find out they don't have what I discovered I need on Monday when I can order Monday night from MB Klein and have it on Friday?
IRONROOSTER Hobby shops are dying. I've watched the number decline in Northern Virginia for over 40 years. The train oriented ones that are left are mostly 3-rail O gauge. There are a few general hobby shops such as Hobby Town around, but they too are decreasing. I think the future is hobby shows and Internet shops plus a few very large shops in areas with lots of hobbyists. Paul
Hobby shops are dying. I've watched the number decline in Northern Virginia for over 40 years. The train oriented ones that are left are mostly 3-rail O gauge. There are a few general hobby shops such as Hobby Town around, but they too are decreasing. I think the future is hobby shows and Internet shops plus a few very large shops in areas with lots of hobbyists.
Why would I wait until Saturday to drive from Alexandria to Fairfax, Chantilly, or Manassass and then find out they don't have what I discovered I need on Monday when I can order Monday night from MB Klein and have it on Friday?
JOHN BRUCE III I posted this because I've been slowly recognizing that my local place is goiing down, and I've been a customer for 40 years or so. It's a little like losing a relative, even if it's expected. The posts here are helping me to recognize what's been happening. I think it's too late to do anything about my local place
I posted this because I've been slowly recognizing that my local place is goiing down, and I've been a customer for 40 years or so. It's a little like losing a relative, even if it's expected. The posts here are helping me to recognize what's been happening. I think it's too late to do anything about my local place
Shops need lots of business to survive - no one can save a shop on it's own. When I used to live in another town, fellow modelers would almost make it a "moral imperative" to support the LHS or I was disloyal. Hello ... I struggled alot on my own financially - I cannot treat an LHS like a charity and donate extra money I can't afford - not with court ordered child support and other major obgliations, and periods of unemployment in an area with a bad job market. Since then the cost of the hobby has gone up sharply so getting items at a discount is more necessary than every to be able to afford them.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
rrebellweird, the quote was wrong!!!!
Probably a glitch in the system..No worries.
I understood what you wrote but,thought the guy was be foolish since selling old dusty stock is a means of making money in order to order new stock...
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
rrebell BRAKIE Home The Magazine Get Started News & Reviews How To Videos Community Special Issues Shop MENU Read my post more carefully, I was talking about the shop owner making presumpsions which cost it a lot of money, we are talking thousand here (no, not from me)!
BRAKIE Home The Magazine Get Started News & Reviews How To Videos Community Special Issues Shop MENU
Read my post more carefully, I was talking about the shop owner making presumpsions which cost it a lot of money, we are talking thousand here (no, not from me)!
I posted this because I've been slowly recognizing that my local place is goiing down, and I've been a customer for 40 years or so. It's a little like losing a relative, even if it's expected. The posts here are helping me to recognize what's been happening. I think it's too late to do anything about my local place -- I think part of it is the guy got rid of a partner several years ago who could have kept things going, and it's a big question of judgment on his part.
One point that keeps coming up is that you've got to know your customers and cater to them. Another is having the right staff. Typical blunders are, during the holiday season, letting first-time buyers, who may not even buy anything, monopolize the counter and crowd out the regulars. This takes tact and good judgment, and you can't pay people like that the same as McDonald's. Another is recognizing that the business involves part numbers, the difference between BNSF and CSX, etc etc etc. If your staff resents having to look up a part, or resents it if a customer says "I'm sorry I wanted the AB-123, and that's a BC-124," you've got the wrong people working for you. A big advantage to dealing on line is that you don't have to go through passive-aggressive jerks, if you get it right, the computer gets it right.
I don't know if some of the guys at my local place are naturally dumb and lazy, or if it's liquid fueled, but the owner has a problem with them, and he won't admit it. They don't like me, and I don't like them. He didn't used to have people like that, but they all left. I think part of it was they recognized the owner wasn't making good personnel decisions.
I'm hearing in some of the commernts that there are places like Greenville, SC or Springfield-Palmer, MA that can siupport train stores. That makes me think that a business that's properly run can survive.
rrebellHad one stop doing a flea market train event because they thought another shop was dumping invintory
To my feeble mind dumping stock is far better then sitting on stock that is dusty and several years old and the idea of not dumping old stock is from the Jurassic age of hobby shop business 101 and will surely doom a hobby shop in today's on line business mode and one hears those famous words every day ~ visit our web site!
Almost any buisness can suceed. The trouble with every hobby shop I have ever visited (except one M. B. Klein) were terrible buisness people, I mean really bad!!!!!! Had one stop doing a flea market train event because they thought another shop was dumping invintory ( a person that worked at another shop was getting rid of some of his stuff, I beleive he was changing scales). What dose that have to do with buisness is when people were through with the bargin stuff, they would come into the store and buy, the line was as long as the store to check out, even me who usually only buys bargins would pick up a few items at full retail. My stories are endless about peole who should never be in buisness. One of the fist rules you learn in buisness is never let persoal feelings interfere with making a profit!!!!!!!!!!!
Unfortunately, most hobby shops are going away, unless as mentioned they are in a big city or metro area. I have only 2 shops within 25 miles and one is Hobby Town and the other is a small one man mostly train shop. Hobby Town carries stuff for many hobby facets, not just trains. And that is unfortunate for me because they don't have anyone there with model railroad knowledge and definately none with DCC knowledge. The other shop is a small narrow shop with almost no space for customers to walk and no way to 'look' at anything. I try to go to Hobby Town for most of my detailing, scratch building materials and scenery which they keep a good supply of. They just moved into a much larger store and that is encouraging. The rest of my mrr purchases are done online. I just hope these two stay in business for another 10 years (when I don't think I will be able to do much on the mrr!).
-Bob
Life is what happens while you are making other plans!
A good rule of thumb for a retail hobby shop was a retail turn of 4 times. That means you sold every item in your inventory four times in a year. If you had a million dollar inventory; you'd have to do 4 million in sales. That is a lot of sales in a day; a week; or a month.
Daunting? And darn near impossible to do without a web presence...
I've experienced this kind of thing, but not in a long while - "no we don't have that in stock right now, but we can order it in for you". I don't take that route anymore & when I did the process was full of possible screwups: ref. Murphys Law.
I prefer on-line/internet buying from anybody who has the items I'm looking for. I like doing things for myself if I can. Old age has not prevented me from ordering my own hobby supplies - not yet anyway.
Mail order, the old form of what we do on the internt now, was a big deal back in the day. Why, you cold even buy a car from the Sears catalog - the, Allstate a compact made by Kaiser. I'm sure that will loosen up some memories.
But that was then & this is now & the way we once did things has now been, for the most part, taken over by the new technology we use today. With the risk of continuing to state the obvious, the hobby shop as we once new it was doomed into irrelivance years ago - we just didn't recognize the signs. It's all part of the massive changes that happen so quickly these days that it's head spinning for many of us. Once again to point out the obvious: change happened more slowly; gradually prior to WWII, but from then on in it all took off running as rapid change & huge advances in technology enabled us to do & acheive so much more than we had in the past. We have seen Detroit, motor city as it once was, become a virtual ghetto now and the demise of the LHS is part of the same process that killed off the De Soto & the rest of the household names that once filled our driveways
all those many years ago.
Dusty
woodmanThe man who runs the Lionel store told me that they are getting ready to put on a 1,500 Sq ft. addition
Where are they going to expand to? Out into the parking lot? Does this mean that they will eliminate the mural on the side of the building?
I was just at my LHS, it is two stores in one, one store carries HO and N scale, the other store carries, Lionel, American Flyer and LGB. Both stores are very cramped on space, you enter into the HO/N scale store and once inside there is an archway into the other store. The man who runs the Lionel store told me that they are getting ready to put on a 1,500 Sq ft. addition, so in some areas the brick and mortal stores are still doing well. This store is in Lansdale, Pa.
Once upon a time I would drive to the Hobby Shop, where the guy would usually tell me he would have to order it in from Walthers or wherever. Two weeks would pass and I would have to make another trip to go get it. So now I just order it from Walthers or wherever myself and have it sent to my house. Even if I have to pay shipping, it is a lot cheaper than paying to move a 2000KG vehicle back and forth to the hobby shop. I am often told to stop being so pragmatic and that is fine with me. Now if I can only get drone delivery and eliminate those stinky, polluting step vans that rumble down the street, that would be another step in the right direction.
Whether it's courier companies, hobby shops or buggy whip manufacturers, change is the biggest part of growth. As for myself, I have too much living left to do and will welcome with a sense of awe anything new comes down the pipe. I occasionally do get sentimental when I am tired and feeling worn out, but that only last until the batteries are charged. When I stop being this way you can reserve me a room at Valhalla.
Brent
"All of the world's problems are the result of the difference between how we think and how the world works."
Topics of this nature seem to come up frequently but I'm not aware of any major change in the hobby or the business model that will be that miracle some seem to be looking for. The trend we have seen will likely continue and only the shops which have been able to adapt to online sales will have chance at continuing on.
Some on-line businesses such as Amazon are already collecting Arizona sales tax, but their prices still beat many local merchants who have to pay rent, utilities, staff, medical coverage, etc.
KemacPrr One thing that could change the internet business model will be the Federal Internet Sales Tax that will eventually be enacted. Fed Tax revenues from brick and motar stores are dropping and the need for more tax income will bring this about. When it was first considered a few years back it would have been 2% now I have heard the start point is 5%. Reason it did not start years ago was the cry from the then young new internet that it needed to be able to grow first. Now it is grown up !!! Will be interesting to see what happens when that comes about. ---- Ken
One thing that could change the internet business model will be the Federal Internet Sales Tax that will eventually be enacted. Fed Tax revenues from brick and motar stores are dropping and the need for more tax income will bring this about. When it was first considered a few years back it would have been 2% now I have heard the start point is 5%. Reason it did not start years ago was the cry from the then young new internet that it needed to be able to grow first. Now it is grown up !!! Will be interesting to see what happens when that comes about. ---- Ken
Sales taxes are a local and state tax; the feds get their tax monies through income taxes on individuals and corporate tax returns. Any federal internet sales tax will be redistributed to local and state governments. Those entities are being hardest hit by e-commerce. And local property taxes on b&m inventories have also impacted local governments.
Great online deals will be diminished when shipping, sales tax, and shipping time are figured into the equation.
I will throw in my 2 cents to this conversation. Someone else mentioned that Hobby Shops need to market to the people that they will serve. Well another thing I think happened is from when I was a kid(now 46) I used to gowith my mom to K-mart and buy el cheapo tyco & model power stuff there. I remember getting tyco cars for a buck a peice. For a kid in the 70's that was pretty affordable and I got interested in the hobby. We don't have this for kids anymore. I have 2 girls so not much interest but even if they were there is no real el-cheapo stuff to buy unless you go to the train shows. How can you get a kid enthused in trains if as a parent you have to spend well over $100.00 to get them a cheap train set. let alone start buying them ultra detailed cars at 30 bucks a peice. I had a 8' x 8' table with all my cheap stuff but I was in 7th heaven, I was a kid Didn't have to be super detailed or even correct for the PRR it just had to be cheap and run. As I aged I went more to the hobby shops because I got a bit more picky on what I wanted. Now I am so picky that 99% of the time the LHS doesn't have what I am looking for so I have ended up on the internet. I think we have all gone that way as a society, too picky and need it NOW!
GP-9_Man11786Actually, what I've seen here in South Carolina is when Wal Mart comes in, the businesses on Main street do close down but then new ones that Wal Mart doesn't compete with come in and take their place.
Being from Columbus,Ohio I seen urban decay at its worst..I seen several downtown department stores go out of business including the icon of downtown~F&R Lazarus.This store was large with 6 floors and had two adjoining buildings.
Folks just move to the suburbs and shopped at the outlaying malls.
I grew up with railroads in Montana (MILW & NP) and always was interested in trains and had a nice HO layout as a kid. Joined the Navy and when I got out I ended up living in south Florida for 7 years before moving home. I didn't have the room for HO, but I did build a small N scale layout and had Orange Blossom Hobbies close by. They were well stocked and the staff were great at answering any questions and helping me find what I needed.
Then came the move back home to Montana. No LHS at all. I did stock up before leaving Florida but soon needed more and no where to get it. I ended up changing to HO scale in the late 70's and had a couple of dedicated modelers in the area in HO scale and I ended up getting dealerships with a number of suppliers, including Walthers. It was great for me and other modelers in the area. I was able to help them and it kept inventory moving, but most was always special ordered. It's hard to keep everything in stock. Up here we were just glad to have access to model railroad supplies. In the late 80's when a recession hit, many had to move out of the area and a couple also passed away. I ended up having to get out of the business, but I did have a plan for my layout and had rat holed quite a lot away for getting the layout built. As years passed, the layout did move ahead, but my supplies finally gave out.
This is where not having a local hobby shop was a big problem. We do travel a lot and I would always make a list of what I thought I needed and would stop at hobby shops across the country to keep my layout moving, but progress really slowed. There is a shop in Billings which I always stop at when in town, but for the most part they never stocked what I needed and I would get the "well, we can order it for you" line.
Finally e-retailers started coming on line and this has been the only way I have been able to keep going in the hobby. The LHS has no way that they can stock everything, especially in mor erecent years when a lot more has come into the model railroad hobby. I do feel bad for the owners of a LHS because I know first hand what they are up against.
Your dealer can actually still get it from Walthers. For a number of years, I took advantage of this with my local shop -- I would get a Walthers flyer, see sale items in particular, and order them through my dealer. This meant I could get discount pricing but support my dealer, since Walthers would discount the wholesale price. During that period, my dealer would sometimes see something I'd ordered, say gee, that's pretty neat, and order additional ones at the same price (but I don't think he passed the savings on -- he'd get the discount wholesale but charge full list!)
There are two problems with that. One is that Walthers has a credit limit, so even if the dealer knows I'm a sure thing to pick the item up right away and pay for it, Walthers may be putting a hold on the dealer's orders overall until the credit problem is fixed. So in theory, an item could come from Walthers nearly as fast and as cheaply as an item from Klein's via UPS, if there's a credit problem, that won't happen. But also, there's only one way to get an order right, and an infinite number of ways to screw it up. I wound up working with the former manager of the store to be sure that only a reliable employee took my orders, but that broke down, and the less reliable employees didn't like it, since that meant in management's eyes, there might be someone who wouldn't get laid off before they did. The body language among the what's-an-F7 contingent on the staff got worse and worse when I'd come in.
Warren Buffett says that when the tide goes out, you can see who's swimming without a bathing suit. I think that changes in the hobby are exposing bad habits in the industry. Past a certain point, I couldn't support this store.
IRONROOSTERAlready I and others do most of our buying online and at train shows. This hobby existed before the b&m hobby shops and will exist after they are gone.
Indeed..I can remember when "Mail Order shops will kill the hobby" was the cry as was "Support your local hobby shop"..Of course that was in the days of BB locomotives and car kits.
Remember "Your dealer can get it from Walthers"?
What changed?
The arrival of the internet and how many of us became our own hobby shop by ordering what we need at discount and we basically cut out the middleman~ the hobby shop.
It is all about cash flow; whether a store can generate it through walk-in traffic, mail order, or internet/ebay sales. You have to have cash to invest in the next new product; and you have to be able to dump old inventory to make way for the new. Bottom line is you have to have sales to generate cash.
I'll also argue that a b&m store has to constantly market the hobby to sustain its business. It has to nuture newcomers to the hobby and support existing hobbyists: by supporting local clubs; by showcasing new products on in-store layouts; by using clinics to teach newbies or new techniques.
And it has to have a dynamic inventory (and knowledge behind the inventory) to support a wide customer base.
They need to hire Gordon Ramsay and do "Hobby Shop Nightmares" complete with stubborn owners and inept employees.
Jim
rgengineoilerSo, in my humble opinion it it will take a million dollars or more, (or more) for a good train stocking hobbyshop to survive in the current hobby business climate. Just the amount of train related products currently for sale is off the charts and trying to compete as a small local hobbyshop stocking all of it would be very difficult.
That right there is a major factor. Back when Atheran carried the same Blue Box kits for years at a time and most other vendors had products with equally long shelf lives, it wasn't too big a deal to stock a representative set of goods likely to appeal to your customers.
Folks' expecations have changed. They want a specific model right down to the road number -- or they're look elsewhere for it. Now you must know your customers as individuals and cater to those needs, inside of just making a general stab in the dark based on what folks have bought over the last 5 years.
That's why the LHS that's well managed survives and the ones who aren't are dropping like flies.
BTW, this hobby doesn't depend on the LHS anymore or it would already be as dead as some people think it will soon be, because the marketing of goods is changing so quickly to new formats. The hobby is here as long as YOU want it to be. Some of us could start our own hobby shop with everything we have squirreled away. The estate sales from all that stuff guarantees the hobby will be alive for the next 50 years even if all the hobby vendors closed their doors today.
Enough gloom and doom. I'm going to have some fun now...
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL