I have a fondness for older brass engines, espicaly diesels. I find the challenge to rework the original drives to run well fun. No they are never quiet but what real engine is quiet? I am not into the whole DCC/Sound thing. I have an excellent imagination and I can hear that Alco 539t prime mover chug, chirp and wheeze along, with the bass and trebble that HO scale speakers cannot reproduce yet. With the addition of a can motor, 8 wheel power pickup and when needed, new axle gears from NWSL, I can made an older diesel run as smoothly as an Athearn blue box engine. I prefer older Japanese built engines, they are more robust than the early Korean models IMHO. I have worked on new brass and its sooooo much more fragile, much like this new fangled plastic stuff, than the older models I prefer. I take mine to the local club to run, so they get handled and need to survive this. I have helped several modelers that wanted or had a brass engine but needed it tuned/fixed. So if your in that boat, feel free to pick my brain. I just bought an old Trains Inc Alco S2 that I plan to rework for my small layout. I got it for less than I see Atlas yellow box S2's go for, and when I am done, it will probably outpull it as well. Cheers Mikie
Silly NT's, I have Asperger's Syndrome
I have re-motored/re-geared a lot of older brass engines. The basic problems with 'operatiuon' are:
I still have a few brass steamers, as they are really nice models. But they are from the 70's, and are not up to the current brass standards. One day they may get new motors, and plastic brake shoes. The electrical pick-up issues are still there. BLI USRA Mikes and Bachmann 2-8-0's make up most of my 'steam'...
Jim
Modeling BNSF and Milwaukee Road in SW Wisconsin
I like old brass too. Wish I could afford to purchase more of it. I get the same kind of enjoyment that you do in tuning them up. I like brass steamers tho'. I mostly just replace the open frame motors with can motors and clean the gear boxes and replace old rubber drive tubing. I like the advantages of DCC so I install decoders in the tenders. I don't do the sound thing. Personally, I think external sound systems like SurroundTRAX are coming of age with all the possibilities DCC offers and will eventually make the internal sound systems obsolete. I really want to hear HI-FI sound with base that rumbles my insides "a little" when my engines pass by. Back to the subject, if anyone can show me pics of their tender decoder installations (with older brass) and how you handled the connections between engine and tender, I'd love to see them.
Chris
The old stuff still dose not run like the new. I got a couple brass shays I still can't get to run right and not for lack of skills. I built an MDC shay that ran at a tie a min., thats as slow as I have see anything run.
"Me," he said, "Me--ME!!" In fact, that's about all I run is older brass steam. But when you're modeling Rio Grande and Southern Pacific standard gauge steam, that's about all that's available--brass, and not much of it new. They come from such Japanese and Korean manufacturers and distributors as Akane, Westside, Tenshodo, Key, Sunset, United, Trains Inc. and Custom Brass. The oldest brass I have dates from 1964 from Akane, the newest dates from about 2010 or so. Most are from the 1970's and '80'. About 2/3rds of them have been picked up second-hand at train shows or on consignment from hobby shops. Most of them have been re-weighted and re-balanced, the open-frame motors have had replacement Rare Earth magnets installed. All of them run good to excellent. Wheel arrangements range from 2-8-0 through 2-8-8-4 and include at least one of almost every class of standard-gauge steamer that Rio Grande and SP ran during the 'forties and 'fifties.
I run DC, and have installed additional pickups on most of my locos for smoother slow-speed operation. Were I younger, I'd probably convert to DCC, but as it stands now, conversion costs for the number of locomotives I have (and run) would be a little out of reach for me. Maybe my nephews, when they inherit them, will do the conversion, because I can see them running just fine a long time after I'm gone.
Tom
Tom View my layout photos! http://s299.photobucket.com/albums/mm310/TWhite-014/Rio%20Grande%20Yuba%20River%20Sub One can NEVER have too many Articulateds!
My JNR roster consists almost entirely of 1960s era brass - steam, diesel and electric. Some have received cosmetic and internal upgrades, but most are soldiering on with their old Pittman-style or vertical motors and less then all wheel pickup.
My TTT roster has some plastic kitbashes and some really awful Japanese-pattern foobies, the latter partially upgraded with details that they didn't have when manufactured (like generators, air brake systems...) They look like what they're supposed to be - junk collected at scrap prices, held together with baling wire and wishful thinking. There's also a real tinplate 'critter' (4 wheel sheet steel diesel-mechanical) which was a bargain counter find and is worth just about what I paid for it. (When it's indisposed its work gets done by the car-pushing crew, three women in conical straw hats and blue pajamas with big white polka-dots.)
As I posted elsewhere, these are markers in the game called, "Running a railroad." They do what I need them to do. I am content.
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
40 years ago, when the line was still operated by the D&RGW, I rode the train from Durango to Silverton - the beginning of an everlasting love to 3 ft. narrow gauge trains. Upon my return to Germany, I ordered a WMC T-12, but what a disappointment when it finally arrived! It was nicely detailed, when compared to my standard fare of Marklin locos of those days, but the performance was, to say the best, lousy. It hardly pulled its weight and had a bad hitch in its git-along. I painted it, lettered it - and put it back in its box, where it remained, almost forgotten, for nearly 40 years. Not long ago, I found it in a moving box in my attic. I expected the worst, but it looked still quite OK. It wouldn´t move an inch, so I disassembled it, cleaned it thoroughly and gave it another test run. Now it ran, but still somewhat erratic, so I disassembled it again, checked the brushes on the motor, cleaned the wheels on and the truck bolsters on the tender, reamed all bearings, took off the side rods and the valve gear, de-burred the borings and polished the backside of the side rods and the valve gear. I re-assembled the loco, touched up the paint job and gave it another test run. The result was just amazing! This is not the loco I bought 40 years ago! Now it runs nearly like a Swiss watch, the noise it previously made is gone, the pulling power has improved by the square, and it creeps along at a minimum speed of less than 1 smph. It still has the old open frame Pittman motor and the original, rather troublesome gear box. The motor draws quite a few amps, but I will keep it until I decide to convert it to DCC. As it is a nice performer now, I may leave it the way it is.
The loco will need some more work. The drivers are not quartered 100% perfect, but that´s noticeable only at unprototypical high speeds in excess of 60 smph. I have to check the gauge on all wheels, providing I can find a source selling an NMRA HON3 gauge here in Germany. I need to install a LED and a lens in the headlight, install a front coupler and, finally, renumber the loco, as I had picked a wrong number when lettering it. Little did I know then, but such information was hard to get in the days before the Internet!
This is my one and only brass loco I have and, despite all the effort which had to go into teaching it to run properly, it is a gem. I can´t explain why, but I am really attached to it and running it is much more fun than running one of those modern, highly detailed, sleek performers, equipped with all bells and whistles modern electronics offer.
Now I am looking for an affordable brass C-16 or C-18!
Ulrich
How about a couple of pictures for those of us who are uneducated in these things?
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
Unfortunately, I was so indulged into getting the loco to run, I didn´t take any pictures aklong the process. All I have is a pic before the "refurbishment".
I have to buy some more track, my test track is only 15" long! I will try to make a little video of the loco, then.
Certain brands ran better or could run better than others, pretty much anything from PFM/United/Tenshodo ran excellent, and usualy only a can motor is needed to bring one up to snuff. Any diesel with the Kumata drive will be noisy no matter what you do, some are less noisey than others. These need 8 wheel power pickup and a can motor stuck in them. I have a PFM/United 2 truck class B shay, I remotored with a Kato can motor and it will just crawl, I also hard wire the front truck to the frame with a wire to give solid ground connection instead of relying on the bolster to truck contact. Then i fabricate wheel wipers and give the shay 8 wheel power pickup. Those are the secrets to getting a PFM shay to creep. The gear ration is good on them, you just have to overcome the power pickup issue and stuff a nice big can motor in there. Smaller motors sometimes dont have enough low end torque to spin the complex driveline those engines have. Mike
I have an N.P. PFM Y-2 Consolidation that is a basket case at this time, being reconditioned and adding DCC and sound being added. At one time I had a very small Precision Scale two truck shay that worked but came from the factory with problems, so I sold it, informing the buy of what I knew was wrong with it. I did not get my money out of that loco. I love brass as it will give you the exact model you want. However, I am hesitant to spend so much on them as "Like a box of chocolate, you never know what your goina to get"!
NP 2626 "Northern Pacific, really terrific"
Northern Pacific Railway Historical Association: http://www.nprha.org/
I like my tendshodo and will upgrade it this or next year. I am trying to move more into brass locos. Haven't bought a plastic loco in a while now, but keeping an eye on some brass.
Richard
Well put NP! You do never know what your gonna get, all of these are hand assembled one at a time, and thats part of the high cost. It also adds that wild card of no two being alike. Most brass can be made to run good. One has to keep in mind that back then, modelers were expected to have to fine tune the drive, usualy done prior to painting the model. Even the plastic and diecast of that era didnt run well many times. Many of todays modelers expect Kato performance right out of the box and are very unhappy if that doesnt happen. Even the high doller Overland diesels, which run as well as a Kato once broken in a little bit, can be prone to a glitch or two. And that is an engine pushing $1000 each these days and made in runs of less than 10 sometimes. That stuff is way out of my budget, but I love to admire it! I will stick to my older under 200 doller diesels that look and run to my satisfaction after a little tune up time. Mike
I've re-motored a couple of dozen brass locos, both steam and diesel, for a friend, but have only a couple of my own.
This ex-B&M Mogul was bought used and did not run well at all. I replaced the motor with a small Sagami, then added some weight and eventually re-worked it cosmetically, too. Because it's lettered for one of my free-lance roads, it got a few detail changes and I also converted the slide valve cylinders to piston-type. The cab is from a Bachmann Consolidation, and the tender has been re-done with a higher cistern and a clear vision-type coal bunker.
This CNR Ten-Wheeler, one of my favourite prototypes, was bought used. It needed a little tlc, but runs well. I did, of course, re-paint it:
This one, another CNR loco, was received in payment for some work I had done for another friend. I put new magnets in the open-frame motor, exchanged the single cylinder air pump for a cross compound one, and added over 2 ounces of lead to the loco. I also outfitted the engine and tender with all-wheel pick-up, then re-painted and re-lettered both:
Another friend, an avid modeller of the CNR, brings me all of his locos for modifications, repairs, and painting.The two locomotives shown below got mechanical tune-ups, and paint and lettering, along with new Elesco feedwater heater systems:
This one was a complete re-build, with a new can motor, NWSL gearbox, and all-wheel pick-up. The drivers are from Greenway, as the centres of the original ones were badly infested with zincpest. New paint and lettering, naturally:
This one, picked up "used" from a LHS, already had a nice can motor, and was similar to 10 locomotives which the CNR acquired, also "used", from the B&A:
CNR re-worked theirs, so this one got a similar make-over:
All of the locos shown are DC.
Wayne
PRR_in_AZ Back to the subject, if anyone can show me pics of their tender decoder installations (with older brass) and how you handled the connections between engine and tender, I'd love to see them. Chris
Back to the subject, if anyone can show me pics of their tender decoder installations (with older brass) and how you handled the connections between engine and tender, I'd love to see them.
Chris, Group, I like the older brass too. Mostly Steam. I do sound /DCC install and have some photos on my website: http://home.comcast.net/~1stklashobbies/site/ you can e-mail me from there and I can show you how to make mini plugs to attach the tender to the engine. TCS also sells them.
Sam
Hi Sam,
Took a look at your site. Nice work BTW. I couldn't see a lot of photos with plugs between the engine and tender although I did see a partial plug coming out of an engine in one photo. I looks like you are using pin type connectors. I am using the same thing. Great minds think alike. My basic idea is to make the connections firm but not impossibly hard to unplug like a lot of those plastic socket connectors on much of the newer plastic locos. I also do the two connector pin to the front headlamp as well when the boiler is separated from the frame.
"You never know what you're gonna get......"
Actually, there are a few basic things to look for in order to reduce your chances of getting a lemon. I've found that PFM and KTM engines are pretty predictable when it comes to having a true, square frame. Of course all bets are off if the previous owner dropped it on the concrete floor! Old Akane engines are pretty consistently good, too. ALWAYS be sure to see the engine run in both directions before you plunk down your money. Look carefully at the drivers and valve gear as they move, to identify any irregularities that could indicate a bind or improper quartering. Be sure to do this inspection from both sides. Look for "wheel wobble" that could indicate a bent driver axle. Some very old brass steamers have solid frames without springs. If it's a sprung model, be sure to feel the spring tension on both sides of each driver set. Be prepared to do some fine tuning as mentioned above, and be prepared to replace the motor. Be prepared to discover some unconventional design features. Lambert's B&O and PRR 2-8-0's are terrific engines, but their "spring" arrangement is an imaginative setup that mimics the compensated setup you would find on a real loco. I got fooled on that one and bought an engine that had "lost" the components that provided the compensation! Still haven't figured out what to use to make replacement parts for that engine. Once I understood that construction feature, I was quite willing to buy another of the same engine because it is truly a worthwhile purchase.
The great thing about those older brass engines is that you can actually have a model that really represents the prototype you want. Many of the modern models are fine; but there are vast numbers of older steam (and diesels) that were produced in brass, but will probably never be offered as a modern mass-produced product. Modern USRA models are good representations of their prototypes. The prototypes were widely used, and the modern models can have their details enhanced to match specific prototypes. However, the USRA designs were not universally adopted. This is especially true in the West. You're not likely to ever see a mass produced Santa Fe 2-6-2, or Rio Grande 1700 series 4-8-4, or NYC K-5a 4-6-2, or N.P. 0-6-0, or Union/DM&IR 0-10-2. You can find these in brass, however, and those who want these specific models seek them out because nothing else will quite fill the need.
I think some of the best older brass locomotives were the Akane setamers. They were wisper quiet and could pull the tar paper off the walls eith ease. not as detailed as modern steamers, but great engines.
I do run brass. mainly because I get the unique prototypes I won't find in plastic. I have had many project locos and a few that ran great from the get-go. I find that it helps to know some experienced brass train guys. I have been saved a couple of times by our local guru.
As for loco to tender connections, most of the local HO guys have gone to hardwiring the tender to the engine. Quicker and easier on the install end and since we run the locos, not too many problems dealing the with loco/tender as a connected unit.
Here are a couple of pics of a recent install in a 2-6-2. In the first shot you can see the headlight connector pins that I use to connect the shell to the frame. I do find it necessary to plan where all the excess wires will fit in the install to avoid cramming it all in on a wing and a prayer
Guy
see stuff at: the Willoughby Line Site
Brass diesels CAN be an easy remotor if you plan it right! For diesels with AAR trucks, swipe the running gear from a Walthers Alco FA1. Thats what I did with this Brass Baldwin DRS 4-4-1500
Yes, you may need to shim or shave the bolsters, or you could use Athearn BB parts to creat a new driveline!
Or if you want a certain steam model, brass may be the only way to go!
And with some basic sound mechanics & upgrades, lots of brass can be brought up to be as nice as some "plastic fantastic" for a reasonable amount of money.
Karl
NCE über alles!
As an HOn3 fan, there were no HOn3 locos that were not brass, save for one old MDC consol kit. So brass was it until Blackstone.
Even Blackstone has only 2 modern non-brass loco's, the K-27 and the C-19. They are fabulous, of course, and got me into HOn3. Outside of only two viable non-brass engines, HOn3 locos are 100% brass or nothing beyond rolling your own locos from scratch. So brass is the only option for HOn3 after the two blackstone offerings.
Old brass performance is lousy, even at its finest, by any modern standard. All brass HOn3 needs work to be made suitable...A lot of work!
I love the K-28 and spent about $250 on a serviceable copy by United from the late 60's, (E-bay), that looked as if it was painted with a pallet knife. I had to go to "motor doc' for a special Falhauber geared motor ($125.00), cobble up my own all wheel pickup arrangement, strip and re-paint, install an LED headlight and tender light, add a Tsunami sound module, ($109.00), and after the extra expense and many hours labor, I had a really nice running and sounding K-28. Shortly afterwards, Blackstone announced a new K-28 to be released in 2014..........make that 2015 or maybe 2016. It will be well over $450.00 with DCC & sound
I am sure when the Blackstone K-28 finally comes out, it will run better and look better than what I cobbled up out of the old United brass loco. I will buy one or two of them, for sure, but will always have a soft spot for that e-bay pig that I put lipstick on and taugh it how to dance.
If I can't fix it, I can fix it so it can't be fixed
I was going thru my cupboard and found a brass engine I had almost forgotten about. A couple years ago, my friend and I split the cost of a basket case PFM B2 shay. It had a broken crankshaft so it was 1 truck drive. It was nicely painted but unlettered. I resoldered the crankshaft, installed 8 wheel power pickup and stuffed a Kato can motor in it. Now it runs as smooth and quiet as a Kato diesel. I also drilled out the lights and put working lights in it, with the rear light being directional. I will get a picture of the old girl later on. I decaled her for my Turtle Creek Timber Co.