Along with my impetus to ask why the N.P. appears to not be a very popular modeling focus was to see if I could shake any other N.P. modellers out of the wood work. I knew that Gary (BN24) modeled the SP&S. I also knew that there were a few other "N.P. heads" out there. Grinell is a new name I did not know was an N.P. Modeller.
As far as the availability of N.P. locomotives, I have quite a few: I have an F-7 A-B-A set made from old Athearn Blue Box B.N. F-7s, I have a Stewart Baldwin VO1000 switcher, I have three GP-7 one from Athearn Blue Box and 2 Life Like Proto P2K. I have a Stewart RS-2 and an Atlas RS-3. For steam I have a G-2 switcher from IHC, A brass PFM Y-2 consolidation, a Kit Bashed W-3 micado built from a Rivarossi Mike. I have other locomotives for my shortline RR. So, I feel I have a collection of N.P. motive power addequate for my layout.
NP 2626 "Northern Pacific, really terrific"
Northern Pacific Railway Historical Association: http://www.nprha.org/
Maybe it's a lack of locos, the NP had a huge fleet of F units(and two FP7's) same for the GN, and Q. I'm happy I've got atleast 4 NP F units. I wish I had some GN ones, my fleet could use atleast an ABA set.
SP&S modeler, 1960's give or take a decade or two for some equipment.
http://www.youtube.com/user/SGTDUPREY?feature=guide
Gary DuPrey
N scale model railroader
I love the NP and the Milwaukee Road, (western portions mainly) as I grew up on the GN mainline and the NP and MILW were 60 miles south of me in Montana. Both railroads ran parrallel for miles through Montana, and the NP rails over Homestake Pass into Butte, through very unusual rock formations and clinging to the hillside, is still awesome to look at. MRL is my favorite current railroad (which uses the old NP mainline).
I agree that Raymond Loewy's designs and the NP railroad stations (Livingston MT for example) were classy, and the best looking railroad schemes there was.
http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=402049&nseq=12
Perhaps the lack of layouts has to do with the lack of locos? I am unsure why it is this way? Perhaps Walthers will release a "North Coast Limites" trainset in the future.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/hunter1828/2393580867/in/pool-nprr/
"The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge but imagination."-Albert Einstein
http://gearedsteam.blogspot.com/
I'm just whistling in the dark a bit here, but perhaps to go some way towards advancing this discussion it may be nesseserry to understand why modelers choose any particular road to model or to incorporate into a geographic area that is of modeling interest to them.
I think that for as many modelers there are there are possibly that many reasons that dedetermine the choice. But there will be of course commonalities. From the pragmatic to the emotional, most of these reasons are already well recognized & understood. I can really only be certain of my own personal experience in choosing the fallen flag road I model & that was as random as all get out. It's often how a modeler relates to a road operating when & where it did, or indeed still does - the familiar or the exotic.
As a Southerner & flat lander my natural leaning is towards RR's of the south east. Anything with a higher elevation than gopher diggins sets off my vertigo -just kidding!
If you are looking for an easy answer to your question then I think that you will find that slow in coming if in fact one exists at all. Which is perhaps why the side issue to your question has settled on the availability of models for the, NP.
Take heart, all is not lost, just enjoy doing your modeling.
Dusty.
Dear 7j43k
How does your answer to my subjective question ever become something you doubt that would be an explanation I would want to hear? What would put me off of your question. Your doing a little to much thinking you know what I'm interested in, I fear!
NP2626 I find it puzzling that apparently so few model railroaders model the Northern Pacific.
I find it puzzling that apparently so few model railroaders model the Northern Pacific.
I believe the above implies the basic question.
First we can examine the use of the word "apparently". If it weren't there, the above would be a statement of fact. With it in, it becomes a subjective opinion.
That said, it would perhaps be useful to look at the numbers. How many model NP? How many model ATSF? How many model DM&IR? Perhaps the NMRA has this data. Once you have the absolute numbers, you then have to determine what the number SHOULD be. You can't just divide the total number of modelers by the total number of railroads and say that THAT is the proper number. Well, you can; but I don't see why one would expect the same number for the UP as BA&P. Once the above numbers are produced, we can compare how the true number of NP modelers compare to the "proper" number.
If ya don't have the above info, this is all just blather.
So, blathering along, I will put out a possible explanation for differences between predicted and actual numbers:
Remember the Lionel F3? Of course you do. And what were the two main railroads they were lettered for? Why the ATSF and the NYC. And are those two railroads more popular than you would have thought?
While the OP proposes a lack of NP modelers, I don't think anyone is proposing a similar lack of GN modelers. So, which railroad had practically every steam loco class they owned produced by Tenshodo back in the '60's? Now, if you're interested in picking a railroad from the Pacific Northwest, which of the two would you pick? No, not you. I know you'd pick NP 'cause your grand-daddy worked for it. But my point is is that GN was bumped up in visibility quite a bit back in the day by the wide choice of brass engines. And I think that has cascaded down through the "ages". Just as it has for the Santa Fe and the Central because of the Lionel F3--the Central less, a lot less, after PC. And I also know NWSL was into NP brass. But later and not nearly as extensively. And I know that American Flyer made a FANTASTIC (for this impressionable kid) copy of the NP passenger paint scheme. And that AF and Lionel did next to nothing in GN. I am suggesting that PFM (located on the GN) contributed mightily to the comparative popularity of the two. And that that contribution is still operating.
Now, if ya say my idea's a lot of hooey; there's got to be another reason for the difference. I could propose that the GN was just a way more cool railroad: their big Belpaire steamers, their BSB SDP45's, their fascinating electric operation, Rocky on the side of a boxcar, and much more. THAT would also answer the OP's question. But I doubt that's an explanation the he wants to hear.
Ed
NP2626 I think we've sort of lost the point of my original post. I am able to find most everything I need to model the N.P. I was wondering why the road doesn't seem to be very popular given it's historical significance. Certainly the Minneapolis St. Paul area is not a sparesly populated area. Nor is the Seattle/Tacoma area. To me, a high draw to the N.P. is that it runs through some very beautiful country side.
I think we've sort of lost the point of my original post. I am able to find most everything I need to model the N.P. I was wondering why the road doesn't seem to be very popular given it's historical significance. Certainly the Minneapolis St. Paul area is not a sparesly populated area. Nor is the Seattle/Tacoma area. To me, a high draw to the N.P. is that it runs through some very beautiful country side.
How are you measuring popularity? And who are you comparing it to?
This is not a large hobby and includes a lot of collectors as well as a lot of casual model railroaders who just like to run trains that appeal to them. Despite their relative abundance in the hobby press, I suspect that the vast majority of layouts don't follow any particular prototype.
Enjoy
Paul
The NP and GN hist. societies didn't merge their databases(?). IIRC when BN moved from St.Paul to Ft. Worth, they donated a lot of documents to the NP and GN societies. They/we (I belong to both) set up a joint archive of the material at the MN Transportation Museum's Jackson St. roundhouse in St.Paul.
Re the monad - As I recall NP lore, a company official (possibly in advertising) saw the yin-yang symbol prominently displayed at the Korean exhibit hall at the 1893 Chicago World's Fair and liked it. It is / was part of the Korean flag. He started to incorporate it into NP advertising, stationary, business cards etc. shortly after. However, it wasn't used on railroad equipment until the 1920's.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Korean_flags
The same song could be sung by modelers of a lot of other roads. A few items are produced, but you're on your own if you hope to represent the whole railroad. You can paint your own diesels, but you'll run into trouble if you expect to find correct steam locos, cabooses, signature freight cars, and structures. So you look for out-of-production items (brass steam locos, for example) on ebay or at the shows. Some poorly represented railroads are Wabash, Ann Arbor, Bessemer & Lake Erie, Nashville Chattanooga & St. Louis, Florida East Coast, Chicago Great Western, Minneapolis & St. Louis, Central of Georgia, Alton, Texas & Pacific, and many others. Yes, there are individual items that have been available, but it isn't easy to just walk into your hobby shop and buy a correct depot or caboose or steam loco for those roads.
Actually, N.P. modelers have benefitted from the past production of quite a few brass models, and these pop up for sale fairly regularly. Pacific Fast Mail and other importers sold quite a few. Compare this with the Bessemer. A USRA heavy 2-10-2 could be adapted to represent a Bessemer verrsion. Or an ancient brass L.M.B. DM&IR 2-10-4 could be modifed, but that's about it. No 0-8-0's, 2-8-0's, 4-6-2's, or anything else has ever been produced. Ask a B&O modeler and he may tell you about the many errors built into "B&O" models by manufacturers who didn't bother to fact-check during the design phase. Can anybody truthfully say B&O modelers are well-served by those manufacturers?
I'm not saying you're wrong. It's true that there is a limited number of N.P. models currently available. But what is available, is very worthwhile; and if everything were available right now you couldn't afford to buy it all at once anyway. There is a nice laser kit for a cupola style caboose, plus another one for a bay window caboose from the N.P. Society. Lots of stuff to look for on the used market. And there is also the joy (and frustration) of scratchbuilding. Anybody here remember scratchbuilding?
Tom
NP,
I miswrote............ I referred to GN, but meant NP. Actually, both roads have a number of cars on my ATSF layout.
Like I said, I do share your feelings, for my other favorite road - the IC - is most often ignored.
ENJOY !
Mobilman44
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central
Hi,
I've always admired the GN - and other northwest roads. But the fact is, the GN was a player in a big field, and often got lost. Ha, I could replace your GN with IC and the story would be the same.
Of course the IC did get a song written about it.............. "City of New Orleans"
grinnell NP2626 Certainly the Minneapolis St. Paul area is not a sparesly populated area. Nor is the Seattle/Tacoma area. OK, they are not sparsely populated, but also not in the top 20 cities for population: Seattle 22nd, Portland 28th, Minneapolis is 47th. For perspective, in the 2010 census Seattle had a population of only 608,660 people (vs. 8.2 million for New York, 3.8 million for LA, 2.7 million for Chicago, 2.1 million for Houston and 1.5 million for Philadelphia). Not a big market for a model manufacturer or for a fan base Basically NP served forest, farm and mineral producer areas not consumer centers with large populations. Their traffic pattern was predominantly loads eastbound and empties westbound. Grinnell
NP2626 Certainly the Minneapolis St. Paul area is not a sparesly populated area. Nor is the Seattle/Tacoma area.
Certainly the Minneapolis St. Paul area is not a sparesly populated area. Nor is the Seattle/Tacoma area.
OK, they are not sparsely populated, but also not in the top 20 cities for population: Seattle 22nd, Portland 28th, Minneapolis is 47th. For perspective, in the 2010 census Seattle had a population of only 608,660 people (vs. 8.2 million for New York, 3.8 million for LA, 2.7 million for Chicago, 2.1 million for Houston and 1.5 million for Philadelphia). Not a big market for a model manufacturer or for a fan base
Basically NP served forest, farm and mineral producer areas not consumer centers with large populations. Their traffic pattern was predominantly loads eastbound and empties westbound.
Grinnell
If you add St.Paul into the equasion, the Twin Cities would become 18th on the list, pushing Detroit down to 19th. However, the figures used in the list I saw in "List of U.S. cities by population", only list a number by the people in the city proper, it does not include the surrounding 182 cities and townships with a population of 3.6 million people for MPLS/ST. PAUL. Certainly, all the cities in the US have populations today far exceeding those shown on the previous list. I will give you that it is likely the population ratings given today, might work for the populations at the time the Northern Pacific was operating.
I wonder about simply thinking that it all hinges on the poulation centers along the route? I say this because Great Northern equipment always seems to be available, so must be more popular than the Northern Pacific! The CB&Q's California Zephyr seems pretty popular as does equipment for the Milwaukee Road. Certainly, the people interested in the lines between Chicago and the Pacific N.W. would spread their interests amongst the N.P., G.N., S.P.& S., C.B& Q and the C.M. St. P & Pacific.
Everyone who models a particular line probably feels that their line does not get enough credit. I'm happy with my choice and I guess I will have to take the "It is what it is" attitude.
NP2626. I still wonder why the N.P. gets so little attention?
Looking in from the outside, could it be that the North American railroads, fallen flags or not, have an almost overabundance of interesting stuff?
Cheers, the Bear.
"One difference between pessimists and optimists is that while pessimists are more often right, optimists have far more fun."
Populations don't matter, if transition era is really as popular as it seems than the PNW would be a haven for Hill line modelers.
I'll break it down by the four parent roads and the BN
SP&S modelers, generally have NP and GN locos amongst the home road fleet.
GN modelers depending upon locale and modeling area will usually have NP, CB&Q, SP&S, or Both NP and Q.
NP modelers depending upon locale and modeling area will usually have GN, SP&S, CB&Q, or both GN and Q.
CB&Q modelers depending upon locale and modeling area will have NP, GN, or Both.
BN modelers depending upon locale and modeling area will usually have all 4 roads together in the Pacific northwest, GN/NP for the midwest, and Q for the eastern most parts of the BN system.
I'm an SP&S modeler but I have locos from all four roads, simply because the BN in my MR world merged on paper but the companies remained seperate with trackage rights.
It's simply a confounding issue faced by all four of the Hill line roads modelers, we buy engines and stock like it's gonna go quick(usually does). Early BN modelers probably get it the worst out of all of us though.
There is a certain sort of "parallelism" between the GN and the NP- they were built across similar terrain and were primarily farm-service roads in the northwestern US. I know that the two railroad historical associations (GN and NP)merged their "databases", so to speak, several years ago, which helps those of us who like to model northwest railroads- check the GN Goat, etc.. The Spokane road was owned by GN and I think that many GN modelers, such as myself, would enjoy a bit of NP color in their rolling stock and motive power rosters- I have an active modeling interest in the NP, manifested by several box cars.
Cedarwoodron
I think part of the problem is the location ..... as pointed out, it is rather sparsely populated area. Had it terminated in Chicago on the east end, it may have made a big difference. I didn't know much about NP until I was hired by BN to dispatch the Yellowstone Division in 1979. ---- One thing about NP, the old saying was that there was an NP car in every train. The boxcars seemed to show up everywhere. You are suffering the same symptoms that many of us have ..... those of us who don't model Santa Fe or Pennsylvania, etc. I normally model freelance so that I can do pretty much what I want with what's available. I do not have the bucks for brass or the high-end die-cast engines. Lots of luck to you.
Skip Luke
Retired Railroader
I model the NP in the early 1950s and find that there is a fair amount of HO equipment lettered for NP if one is not a "purist" and is willing to use generic equipment that won't get past any "rivit counters". Since I can't afford a fleet of brass NP steam, I have a few brass 'photo props' and operate plastic Bachmann, Broadway Limited, Genesis, Proto 2000 steam locomotives with NP decals. Lots of generic stock cars lettered for NP, but I haven't got around to building the proper Central Valley cars with the round roof. Similarly, many dozens of Accurail, Branch Line, Athearn box cars and not one with an accurate round roof. I've only built one of the laser kit NP cabooses (who has time to build a fleet of them when building a layout), so train show Athearn cabeese, rattle can paint and decals to the rescue until I get around to building more of the accurate cabeese.
Why is Norhtern Pacific not more popular, despite lots of great history and attributes? I think it is a lack of exposure, primarily for two major reasons: 1) NP is a 'fallen flag' that hasn't existed for over 44 years; and 2) the NP's territory was sparcely populated so comparitively few people living today have witnessed the real NP in action.
Kit bashing and scratch building accurate equipment for any prototype railroad can be a hobby in itself, but it is not very practical when building a layout that needs a large fleet of cars to operate. Given the lack of standardization, especially in the age of steam, it is very hard for manufacturers to individualze equipment for very many of the hundreds of 'fallen flags'. For modern equipment, there is much more standardization and very few Class I roads (the shortline modelers, however, still need to do a lot of their own paint and decals).
Jimmy, no need to feel guilty..... in actuallity your not far off. Because of the recieverships and mishandling by its owners, the PM (back in its early days) had the nickname of the "Poor Marquette".
The truth is very few railroads are covered or modeled greatly.
At the top are PRR and ATSF. Generally lots of stuff all the time for these.
Then you have the second tier of NYC, SP, UP, and B&O plus D&RGW for the narrow gauge. Usually stuff for these is around.
Then it's hit or miss and you need to be ready when something comes on the market. Of course you'll have to decide if that AT&SF Consolidation painted Northern Pacific will do it for you or not.
Of course there is always kitbashing, RTR bashing, and scratch building.
PM Railfan NP..... I feel your pain. The Pere Marquette is also a Class 1 with some very notable history attached to it. Alas.... way less models available for this carrier than the NP. And to boot, hardly anyone pronounces the name right! I bet you dont run into that problem with the NP! For the record: its pronounced "pair mar kett" NOT "pee air mark it" (its such an unknown line folks dont know its roadname is actually french, not english).
NP..... I feel your pain. The Pere Marquette is also a Class 1 with some very notable history attached to it. Alas.... way less models available for this carrier than the NP. And to boot, hardly anyone pronounces the name right! I bet you dont run into that problem with the NP!
For the record: its pronounced "pair mar kett" NOT "pee air mark it" (its such an unknown line folks dont know its roadname is actually french, not english).
(My Model Railroad, My Rules)
These are the opinions of an under 35 , from the east end of, and modeling, the same section of the Wheeling and Lake Erie railway. As well as a freelanced road (Austinville and Dynamite City railroad).
True, you don't see or hear much about the NP. But I for one, have both Steam and Diesel. Freight and Passenger.
Since I just joined today. I hope to share some pictures later.
Unfortunately, a year ago. My "4 Aces" hit the floor, at the Anaheim Convention Center. A drop of 36+ inches to hard concret didn't do it any good. :(
NP2626I find it puzzling that apparently so few model railroaders model the Northern Pacific. This past Walthers flyer had no models from the N.P. that I found (I may have overlooked some). The Northern Pacific was a very important road, it was the second trans-continental and the original purchaser of the Northern Wheel arrangement 4-8-4 (hence the moniker "NORTHERN"). It had one of the best paint schemes on it's passenger trains, the green Lowey color scheme. I also believe that the Northern Pacific has some of the best looking steam engines that there ever where. While I like other roads, like the Great Northern, Santa Fe, Southern Pacific, B&O, Pennsy, etc. I still wonder why the N.P. gets so little attention?
jrbernier The M James J Hill of the GN helpeed arrange the fincancingonad is a Korean symbol, IIRC. (Snip) Jim
The M James J Hill of the GN helpeed arrange the fincancingonad is a Korean symbol, IIRC. (Snip)
Jim
Jim,
Could you clarify what your attempting to say here?
James J Hill owned the N.P. while also owning the G.N. and always attempted to merge the N.P. CB&Q and G.N. into one road. In 1970 it finally happened and became the B.N.
The little 24 foot caboose was the attraction that sinched my interest in the N.P.
Mark
It's almost the same in N scale, though my NP fleet now outnumbers my SP&S fleet(for the time being) they outnumber the Q fleet, which outnumbers my GN fleet.
I have 2 F7A's, 1 F3A, 1 FP7A, 1 GP9, and 1 NW2.
I'm sure I could make a decent shelf layout devoted to my NP models, I'm in the heart of NP territory. I agree, that there's a lack of models. The SP&S, GN, adn Q could also use a beefing up in both HO and N.
The M James J Hill of the GN helpeed arrange the fincancingonad is a Korean symbol, IIRC. The NP used it to show their ties to the far east trade. It is one of the basic simple logo designs in railroading. The NP was one of the four federal land grant railroads chartered by the US congress(NP/UP/CP/KP) The charter specified a railroad from Duluth, MN ti the Pacific. Like the other land grant railroads, therewas a lot of financial wheeling/dealing and by the time the NP got free - They had a mountain of debt to service and that debt load seem always keep them one step behind the GN. When I was a teenager in the 60's, the NP was one of the 'cool' roads with thier short wood cabooses and very interesting paint schemes.
Modeling BNSF and Milwaukee Road in SW Wisconsin
Try being a modeler of a shortline, or class 2 like the Wheeling & Lake Erie. Now that one is hard to find material at Walthers or other stores.
jrbernier The NP has been well represented through the years. PFM & NWSL imported lots of NP steam ove the years, and Walthers has done 'Lowey' paint scleme psassemger cars. Just because there is nothing 'in stock' right now does not mean much - Walthers is always releaseing 're-runs' of their passemger cars. There are even laser kits of NP depots available. Jim
The NP has been well represented through the years. PFM & NWSL imported lots of NP steam ove the years, and Walthers has done 'Lowey' paint scleme psassemger cars. Just because there is nothing 'in stock' right now does not mean much - Walthers is always releaseing 're-runs' of their passemger cars. There are even laser kits of NP depots available.
Jim, I can say that occasionally I have seen N.P. stuff offered by Walthers and others. In fact I am fairly well supplied with N.P. rolling stock; but, always looking for more. I have some N.P locomotives, some brass, others from Atlas and Stewart and P2K and even a kit bash or two. Although I mentioned a lack of N.P. models my real puzzelment, is why this road doesn't garner the attention other roads do?
I am a member of the NPRHA and have many years of "The Mainstreeter" and have purchased books and rolling stock from this source. I don't know where the N.P. Monad came from and would think like other embems they just appeared one day and where accepted as right.