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To turn or not to turn, that is the question

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  • Member since
    March 2014
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Posted by Fouled Anchor on Tuesday, June 24, 2014 1:07 PM

Southgate, ya got me laughing out loud, frightened the stupid cat. I think I will do as you suggest, and will do it early in construction as a test. If it works, I can use it sparingly on other areas. Good idea.

 

Thanks

Steve

Life is tough, but it's tougher if your'e stupid.

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Posted by Fouled Anchor on Tuesday, June 24, 2014 1:03 PM

Thanks Crandell. I have become convinced to operate always facing upgrade. And I was worried to be ridiculed for my measly 5.8%

 

Steve

Life is tough, but it's tougher if your'e stupid.

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Posted by Southgate on Tuesday, June 24, 2014 12:55 PM

Fouled Anchor

Just wondering if anyone knows of persons that have tried to model (by handlaying) the really &^%$$* rails you see in small operations? You know, the ones where there are ups and down with all kinds of wiggle. I've seen some videos that are truly amazing that the engine and cars don't derail. It would force very slow speeds. Hmmmm.

 

Steve

 

Yes. My first attempt at handlaying produced just those results. Not intentionally!  Track did have ups and downs and wiggle. It would force...me to re-lay that section with Micro Engineering flex track.

My input on that is to keep your models operating as smoothly as possible. Giving them opportunities to derail and have coupling-uncoupling issues is more temptation than they can resist.

However, you could try playing around with that idea on a stub siding or other limited area.

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  • From: Vancouver Island, BC
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Posted by selector on Tuesday, June 24, 2014 10:48 AM

In rugged terrain, where a road is pretty much compelled to negotiate grades in excess of 3%, turning wye's and such would be costly and difficult to situate.  I have only been on one grade in excess of 3% (it was just a hair under 4%), and that was on the Alberni Pacific road between Port Alberni and the MacLean Steam Sawmill on Vancouver Island.  The locomotive is a Baldwin 2-8-2T.  It faces up grade all the time.  It merely has a run-around track at the high point, which is where the sawmill is located.  The locomotive leads up the grade, but also leads down the grade, just in reverse.

Interestingly, there is a plaque on the backhead beside the sightglass.  It reads, "Maintain water level above this mark when climbing grades up to 9%."   Nine percent!!!

-Crandell

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Posted by jerryl on Tuesday, June 24, 2014 10:44 AM

Fouled Anchor

jerryl, I agree, TT's are cool and all, but seems they are high maintenance items. I was not aware that any standard gauge ran push pull. I thought about HOn3, but detail and Bachmanns Spectrum steam convinced me. Would love to see pics or plans of yours. I will post my plan as soon as I have a little more detail.

 The CNJ (Central RR of NJ) Had a 4-6-4 tank that was made for commuter service & was made for push-pull,the tender even had a pilot on the back. I think you will find that many communter trains operated the same way....If it's good enough for the Big Boys, it's certainly good enough for us lowly narrow gaugers.  As far as pictures etc. I post on another site because of the ease of posting pictures.

Thanks for the info.

Steve

 

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Posted by Fouled Anchor on Tuesday, June 24, 2014 10:41 AM

HA, BroadwayLion you are so right. Another interesting option.

 

Thanks

Steve

Life is tough, but it's tougher if your'e stupid.

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Posted by BroadwayLion on Tuesday, June 24, 2014 10:32 AM

Of course modern freight trains frequently run with locomotives at both ends, both as distributed power and as o convience on local runs.

A mine or logging operation might do this to overcome steep grades, and to facilitate car handling at either end.

It is your railroad, your, mine, or whatever, and if your manager thinks that this might be the easiest way to do things it would certainly make an interesting operation even if they did not do it exactly this wayBetcha some did do just that.

ROAR

The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.

Here there be cats.                                LIONS with CAMERAS

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Posted by Fouled Anchor on Tuesday, June 24, 2014 10:14 AM

BroadwayLion, very interesting, I could do that. Would need some sort of service at both ends. I like that.

 

Thanks for the information. You guys are great, and saving me a lot of research time.

Steve

Life is tough, but it's tougher if your'e stupid.

  • Member since
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Posted by Fouled Anchor on Tuesday, June 24, 2014 10:09 AM

jerryl, I agree, TT's are cool and all, but seems they are high maintenance items. I was not aware that any standard gauge ran push pull. I thought about HOn3, but detail and Bachmanns Spectrum steam convinced me. Would love to see pics or plans of yours. I will post my plan as soon as I have a little more detail.

 

Thanks for the info.

Steve

Life is tough, but it's tougher if your'e stupid.

  • Member since
    July 2006
  • From: North Dakota
  • 9,592 posts
Posted by BroadwayLion on Tuesday, June 24, 2014 9:56 AM

WHEN NYCT ran steam powered trains on the elevated, they pulled forward from the north and were blocked by their own consist at the south terminal. The locomotive from the previous train would come around and running tender first hauled the consist back north, while the locomotive remined at the south terminal to power the next train.

 

The Fournies were built with this sort of opeation in mind. They had low tenders, and carried only enough fule and water for a single round trip. Once at the North terminal they were serviced before going south again.

 

ROAR

The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.

Here there be cats.                                LIONS with CAMERAS

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Posted by jerryl on Tuesday, June 24, 2014 9:00 AM

I am in the process of building an HOn3 shelf layout & will not turn the locos.  A "Y" or turntable takes up more room than I can spare.  I live by "The Gambler's Express" standard gauge line from Philadelphia to Atlantic city & they run a "push-pull passenger train about 10 times a day.  No need to turn an engine especially on a short line.

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Posted by Fouled Anchor on Tuesday, June 24, 2014 7:37 AM

Just wondering if anyone knows of persons that have tried to model (by handlaying) the really &^%$$* rails you see in small operations? You know, the ones where there are ups and down with all kinds of wiggle. I've seen some videos that are truly amazing that the engine and cars don't derail. It would force very slow speeds. Hmmmm.

 

Steve

Life is tough, but it's tougher if your'e stupid.

  • Member since
    March 2014
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Posted by Fouled Anchor on Tuesday, June 24, 2014 7:32 AM

Thanks Larry. Makes sense. That operation appeals to me.

 

Steve

Life is tough, but it's tougher if your'e stupid.

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Posted by BRAKIE on Tuesday, June 24, 2014 7:21 AM

A lot of small mining railroads was operated on a shoe string budget and therefore there may not have been money for a "armstrong" turntable  at the mine load out or  there may not have been room enough..Remember when the mine(s) was worked out or was closed so went the small railroad.

As was mention if a steep grade(s) was involved the engine would not be turned for the reasons already stated by others.

For the record it was not uncommon for steam engines on  mine runs in the coal fields to reverse move (tender first) out a coal mine load out located miles up some branch.

Larry

Conductor.

Summerset Ry.


"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt  Safety First!"

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Posted by Fouled Anchor on Tuesday, June 24, 2014 7:21 AM

Ahhhh, good site Marlon. Thank you.

 

Steve

Life is tough, but it's tougher if your'e stupid.

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  • From: Clinton, MO, US
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Posted by Medina1128 on Tuesday, June 24, 2014 7:11 AM

I found a website with plenty of pictures of the Denver & Rio Grande Western, including one of a locomotive on a turntable. 

Narrow Gauge Memories

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Posted by Fouled Anchor on Tuesday, June 24, 2014 7:01 AM

Thanks Frank. I like that operation. I have seen quite a few British videos, and they almost seem to prefer running forward and backward. Could not find anything on American west. Really did not want a TT, cept maybe for mainline.

 

Thanks

Steve

Life is tough, but it's tougher if your'e stupid.

  • Member since
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Posted by Fouled Anchor on Tuesday, June 24, 2014 6:58 AM

ndbpr, thanks. Excellent point. My grade is 5.8 and I will only be using shay/climax/heisler types. This simplifies things.

 

Thanks

Steve

Life is tough, but it's tougher if your'e stupid.

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Posted by zstripe on Tuesday, June 24, 2014 6:41 AM

Steve,

I would doubt very seriously, that they would go through the expense and work to install a wye or run around track for any mining operations. Back in with empties, hook-up to loads, pull out loads, set on stub siding, spot emptys, hook back up to loads and pull away. KISS.

Take Care! Big Smile

Frank 

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Posted by ndbprr on Tuesday, June 24, 2014 6:39 AM
The PRR had the 5.98% Madison grade in Indiana. Rules kept steam engines always facing uphill so as to insure water covering the crown sheet on the grade. A mining rr with steep grades could face the same issue.
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Posted by Fouled Anchor on Tuesday, June 24, 2014 6:27 AM

Mobileman44, thanks. That is exactly the era I was planning for. Hmmm, originally I had considered a wye, and I am glad you brought it up. I will look at my plan so far, and see if it fits. I guess it would not have to be very big to just turn and engine.

 

Thanks

Steve

Life is tough, but it's tougher if your'e stupid.

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  • From: Southeast Texas
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Posted by mobilman44 on Tuesday, June 24, 2014 6:17 AM

Hi,

I'm not an expert on the subject, but have seen a number of western mining "RRs" over the years.  To the best of my recall, they were of two extremes....... either small gas engine motored "locos" that never turned, or bigger steamers that typically had a Wye to allow for turning.   I'm thinking of RRs from the late 1800s thru mid 1900s, and certainly not "modern" ones.

ENJOY  !

 

Mobilman44

 

Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central 

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To turn or not to turn, that is the question
Posted by Fouled Anchor on Tuesday, June 24, 2014 6:00 AM

Gentlemen, I have been studying North American western narrow gauge mining operations. I have consulted the huge Mines Register, History of the Nevada County Narrow gauge, and Death Valley Borax mining operations. I can find equipment rosters, and other pertinent information. I have a track plan for a branch line point to point, with connection to a mainline narrow gauge (dog bone). What I have not found is whether they turned their engines or ran them forward and backwards. The mining operation will be either gold ore or borax and very small, so I am thinking they did not go to the expense of turning. So, what did the small guys do. I am not a proto exact kind of person. If guests are over, and someone says "Hey, your running your train backward!" I may respond with "well that's the way they did it".

 

Any resources you know of would help tremendously.

Thanks

Steve

Life is tough, but it's tougher if your'e stupid.

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