Geared, excellent advice. Yes, a variable test track is in the works. I had looked at the Nevada Northern and am leaning towards it rather than the Death Valley Borax. Really appreciate the blue box Bachmann Shay info, as I had heard and seen videos on replacing the gears. Like I said earlier, I am not a proto kind of guy, but I'm kinda getting into it. I did notice in the rosters, that a lot were rod locos, now I know why... flat country.
Regards
Steve
Life is tough, but it's tougher if your'e stupid.
Fouled AnchorHistory of the Nevada County Narrow gauge, and Death Valley Borax mining operations. I
These railroads you mention were on "relatively" flat ground, with vast expanses of real estate. Many used rod locos and the grades were not substantial, and also used wyes, as again, there was plenty of open desert.
If you are going to build with a substantial grade, the loco would typically remain on the downhill side of the cars to prevent runaways. 5.8% is substantial, make sure you test first. The Tichey ore cars are very light and would easily push more of these up a grade than a properly weighted NMRA car, but your trackwork needs to be perfect as these can easily derail if used stock, and weight not added.
The Rivarossi Heisler is an excellent and durable loco, as is the last version of the Bachmann Climax.
The last version of the Bachmann Shay is a good runner, but look on Ebay, and buy a blue box model, as it would represent the latest model version with the repaired gears. If you buy an older Bachamnn Shay, pick up some of these to repair the split gears. It's pretty easy to repair, I have step by step instructions on my blog here.
The Nevada Northern Railroad was a branchline in Ely Nevada, that hauled copper from the mine. Great prototype operations and modeling help there as well. Some great pictures of the railroad reside here as well.
Most important, have fun.
"The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge but imagination."-Albert Einstein
http://gearedsteam.blogspot.com/
Richard, thanks for the links (saved em) and information. Still thinking about a small wye, gonna play with the layout plan. Probably subscribe to the gazette.
Have a good day sir.
Fouled Anchor Chuck, only Shays, Climaxes, and maybe a Heisler. All geared. So far the grade plan calls for 5.8%. Thought about modeling a switchback, but ended up thinking it was wasted space. Hoping the geared locos will handle the 5.8. I plan to test that first. Thanks Steve
Chuck, only Shays, Climaxes, and maybe a Heisler. All geared. So far the grade plan calls for 5.8%. Thought about modeling a switchback, but ended up thinking it was wasted space. Hoping the geared locos will handle the 5.8. I plan to test that first.
Thanks
5.8% is one heck of a grade. I did a 3.5% grade once, and it was a tough struggle to get a train up it. Longest train I could get up that hill was only 3 or 4 cars.
David Starr www.newsnorthwoods.blogspot.com
narrow gauge nuclearMany small NG systems used both turntables and wyes, even way out in the boonies! Classically they were always at the end of track on any branch or at major industries where an end of run occured frequently.
If they could afford to build them or get permission from the industry..
The majority of narrow guage railroads never turn a profit in their short life time which was usually 5-10 years or until their way to little freight and passenger business dried up.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
Many small NG systems used both turntables and wyes, even way out in the boonies! Classically they were always at the end of track on any branch or at major industries where an end of run occured frequently.
Remember, the Wye only has to accomodate a tiny NG engine and need not be all that expensive as 20-30lb rail was common and cheap. Stub switches were the norm and also cheap. The same is true for a turntable. Very tiny, no deep pit, rarely over 2 feet deep and always, always powered by the train crew via a long lever arm at each end. All such tables were wood only construction and of the "Gallows" type.
In the long lived NG roads, as the motive power got heavier, the old gallows turntables were simply abandoned and left in place. Sturdy railed wyes were the normal replacement, assuming the branch was still economically viable. Some few roads never bought heavier motive power and man powered tables were still in use in the 1940's.
Sounds like you might be a candidate for the Narrow Gauge and Shortline Gazette, a slick covered bi- monthly mag that give plans and details in each issue and is the MR and RMC for the narrow gauger. They recently gave full details on a real-life, tiny, man-powered TT with pictures when in use back in the day with the pit filled with weeds and bushes. They also included detailed mechanical plans.
Even tiny wyes take up more space than a tiny TT on any layout. No real need to motorize it. You can human power it just like the real ones.
Check out
https://www.google.com/images?q=wooden+narrow+gauge+turntable&rls=com.microsoft:en-US&oe=utf8&gws_rd=ssl&hl=en&sa=X&oi=image_result_group&ei=iM-rU4rUHIOhyATL4oLQBg&ved=0CBQQsAQ
Here is a man pushed table on the SP narrow gauge. Balancing a 45 ton engine properly on the table and two men could turn it. See the long push arms at each end?
http://www.girr.org/girr/relics/spng/spng.html
NG TTs are really sweet, as is all NG stuff. NG is sweet, small, cute and cozy, yet got the job done it th' day.
Richard
If I can't fix it, I can fix it so it can't be fixed
Redore... ok, so if I push uphill and back downhill, the crown sheet is always covered... right? On a very small mining operation, would this not be sufficient? My grade is 5.8%, and my uphill will always be empties. So when I drop my empties, should I disconnect and position the loco at the rear of the loaded cars with the cab downhill? I believe all I would need is a siding? Wow. Like I said, I am not a prototype operations kind of guy, but... I'm getting into it.
Oh... guys, I have learned so much in this thread, this is incredible. Thanks to all you guys.
Great info, thanks.
Geared locomotives are like diesels, they run just as well either way. This says you don't need a turntable or wye. Pretty much the same with "balanced" locomotives like 0-6-0's, 2-6-2's, etc.
Keeping the crown sheet covered is paramount. On steep grades this says don't turn the locomotive and keep the cab at the downhill end of the boiler.
At USS they liked to run with the locomotive on the downhill end of the train to control runaways if a coupler broke (I know the brakes were SUPPOSED to set if the train line were broken). They also used to use safety chains between the cars just in case. This says push-pull.
Model trains don't track as well when being pushed as the prototype does, so you might want to consider run arounds at each end.
Broadway... right, facing uphill on the Shay's and Climax's. Is that correct punctuation?
So, how big a locomotive would you like to pull in and back out?
How about a Y6? N&W did it all the time in Pocahontas coal country. In those steep-sided little valleys there was no possible way to arrange a wye - or even a Mallet-size turntable.
One way to fake a wye would be to hide an Atlas turntable in a grove of trees or behind some other kind of view block. No pesky tail track that way.
My coal-originating short line keeps all locos pointed up the 4% grade, out of deference to their crownsheets. The turntable at the upper terminal turns single-ended brake vans.
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
Fouled Anchor Broadway, was thinking the same thing to just turn an engine. Thanks Steve
Broadway, was thinking the same thing to just turn an engine.
Just remember to keep the crown sheets under water. If a locomotive goes down a steep hill it may blow up.
ROAR
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
Brakie, ok, jewlers hammer it is. Definately will experiment with it. I will be hand laying, so I will ding the rail before nailing, and see how it goes.
JaBear, wow, great thread. Still going to experiment with it on a siding.
Fouled Anchor Just wondering if anyone knows of persons that have tried to model (by handlaying) the really &^%$$* rails you see in small operations? You know, the ones where there are ups and down with all kinds of wiggle. Gidday Steve, I don't think it would be advisable. Here's a link to one of M C Fujiwaras threads which has a bit about the "joys" of uneven track. http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/11/t/221437.aspx?page=1 Cheers, the Bear.
Fouled Anchor Just wondering if anyone knows of persons that have tried to model (by handlaying) the really &^%$$* rails you see in small operations? You know, the ones where there are ups and down with all kinds of wiggle.
Gidday Steve, I don't think it would be advisable. Here's a link to one of M C Fujiwaras threads which has a bit about the "joys" of uneven track.
http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/11/t/221437.aspx?page=1
Cheers, the Bear.
At slow speeds that will work if one doesn't go to the extremes.
My method is to use a jeweler's hammer and lightly tap the rail this gives me dips and bows.
The side to side play of the wheels and the movement of the trucks will compensate for the slight bows in the rail.
Practice on scrap pieces of track first..
And on a small laout, a wye is not all that big.
Here is one in Brooklyn
Fouled AnchorJust wondering if anyone knows of persons that have tried to model (by handlaying) the really &^%$$* rails you see in small operations? You know, the ones where there are ups and down with all kinds of wiggle.
"One difference between pessimists and optimists is that while pessimists are more often right, optimists have far more fun."
dstarr, yes that is what I meant by push pull. My understanding was that with DCE, you can match the locomotive speeds. I am planning on DCE. As this will be a small mine, I don't see more than say ten hoppers. I plan on building a grade test rig before committing to anything.
Fouled Anchor dstarr, would two engines in push pull DCE help. There will be 22" and 30" curves, and over a trestle (30"). Steve
dstarr, would two engines in push pull DCE help. There will be 22" and 30" curves, and over a trestle (30").
Not sure. You are talking about two locomotives, one pulling in front and one pushing from behind? As compared to putting both locomotives in the front pulling?
Not sure about the push-pull rig. You have to adjust the power just right so that the pusher is pushing hard enough to help the train up the hill, but not so hard that it is trying to push the front end locomotive. The classic prototype helper engine was coupled on the rear and pushed up the hill. Once it got to the top, it just uncoupled and backed down the hill to be ready to help the next train climb the hill. No stopping, no switching, simple. The push could be heavy. There were some nasty accidents when the helper pushed so hard it crumpled the caboose, with the crew inside it. This led to rules about uncoupling the caboose, and a series of PRR cabeese with super strong underframes.
jerryl, I took a COG either at Pikes Peak or Royal Gorge years ago (maybe both), and I believe they operated the same.
Something interesting but not really connected, is the engine on Mt. Washington, which is a cog railway, pushes the passenger car up the mountain & backs down with the passenger car up hill from the loco. This is for safety because if the car was behind & it broke loose it would hit supersonic speeds & wind up in the next state......What a hairy ride!!
Fouled Anchor Thanks dstarr. I can understand the pushing uphill likelihood of derailing. Do you think just as likely on our MR's? Thanks Steve Yes, the derailment problem is the same on the prototype as on the model. Granted the prototype used body mount couplers which aren't as derailment prone as truck mount couplers but, you still have a lot of side force on the couplers when pushing, particularly on curves. Enough side force will boost a flange over the railhead, and then you are on the ground. And the prototype used shallower flanges than our models.
Thanks dstarr. I can understand the pushing uphill likelihood of derailing. Do you think just as likely on our MR's?
Yes, the derailment problem is the same on the prototype as on the model. Granted the prototype used body mount couplers which aren't as derailment prone as truck mount couplers but, you still have a lot of side force on the couplers when pushing, particularly on curves. Enough side force will boost a flange over the railhead, and then you are on the ground. And the prototype used shallower flanges than our models.
Fouled Anchor Thanks dstarr. I can understand the pushing uphill likelihood of derailing. Do you think just as likely on our MR's? Thanks Steve
Yes, and even more-so.
cacole, yeah, I'm strongly leaning towards the Borax ops. I knew they diversified, but am not sure if the demand dropped or the mines played out. Not sure if it was my grandfather (pretty sure) or great grandfather, but he drove a twenty mule team out there. My mother (90) has a very old picture of him driving.
Thanks, I'll look for the video.
I found a video on You-tube about the history of the Death Valley railroad that was built to haul borax from the mines to a connection with the Southern Pacific, but it does not show or explain if there was a turn-around wye at either end. Eventually, Borax Smith extended the line northward into Nevada to reach silver mines.
So do, some don't. The Boston and Maine never bothered to turn their commuter trains. They ran 'em backwards on the way into North Station. The successor MBTA still does the same. Although steam engines would run in reverse quite happily, the tender was more likely to derail when being pushed, so speed was usually held down when running in reverse. Tank engines, and Shays, carrying their fuel on board, would run equally well in either direction. On lines with some grade to them, it was usual to have the locomotive in front, pulling, on the way uphill. Derailment is more likely when pushing up hill.
On the other hand I have seen photos and articles about abandoned turntables way, way out in the woods, to turn locos at the end of equally abandoned mining and logging lines. You can play it either way.