One issue that should be considered is how much quality is needed? How much detail?
You can buy a top of the line tablesaw for $4000+, but do you really need that to build your benchwork?
Similarly, do I need full underbody detail on my boxcar?
In Z scale, do I need separately applied grab irons? N scale? etc.
Enjoy
Paul
Seeing that we're getting all serious, , in my experience while people want / demand quality, when it comes to putting their hands in their pocket to pay for it, in most cases, then it's a different story.
Cheers, the Bear.
"One difference between pessimists and optimists is that while pessimists are more often right, optimists have far more fun."
richhotrain It is more than I would normally expect to pay, ergo, it is priced too high, since my expectations are reasonable as a consumer. Rich
It is more than I would normally expect to pay, ergo, it is priced too high, since my expectations are reasonable as a consumer.
Rich
Says who, other than you? The manufacturers obviously say your expectations are not reasonable based on their pricing. And since they resolutely remain in business, it seems that they are right, by the only metric that matters.
"How much one particular person feels like paying" is not a reasonable expectation. "How much a hundred thousand people will pay on average" is.
Prices continue to go up and product continues to sell.
Disclaimer: This post may contain humor, sarcasm, and/or flatulence.
Michael Mornard
Bringing the North Woods to South Dakota!
Doughless Rich, Semi-serious question here...... I remember a few years ago, you blessed the forum with a thread describing and showing your progress in completing the Walthers Bascule Bridge that you later handsomely placed on your layout. IIRC, some things were easy, and somethings were phinnicky. As a reasonable consumer, what would you pay to have someone build you one....or how much would you charge someone to build it for them? BTW, shortly after your thread, I went to a train show and some guy was selling a very well done completed Walthers Bascule Bridge that he built and weathered. He wanted $550. I passed, and I don't know if he sold it or for how much.
Rich,
Semi-serious question here......
I remember a few years ago, you blessed the forum with a thread describing and showing your progress in completing the Walthers Bascule Bridge that you later handsomely placed on your layout. IIRC, some things were easy, and somethings were phinnicky.
As a reasonable consumer, what would you pay to have someone build you one....or how much would you charge someone to build it for them?
BTW, shortly after your thread, I went to a train show and some guy was selling a very well done completed Walthers Bascule Bridge that he built and weathered. He wanted $550. I passed, and I don't know if he sold it or for how much.
I later built a second one to replicate the double bascule bridge here in Chicago at 16th Street.
Building the bascule bridges was no big deal. The problem that I had was getting the bridges to operate properly.
So, I eventually disabled the motors and left the bridges in the down position. The motor was reliable enough, but the gears were plastic and travelled on a plastic arm which easily warps. So, there was a lot of binding. If I were interested in smooth reliable operation, I would convert the gears to metal as well as the arm that the gears travel on.
I bought the first bridge for $90 and the second one for $125. Now, I see that a few are available on eBay for $500. That is outrageous! I wouldn't spend $500 on a bridge.
Would I buy a Walthers Bascule Bridge built and weathered with a reliably operating motorized system for $500? Maybe, but probably not.
While an operating bridge is cool, my main objective is operating trains, not raising and lowering bridges. But, I am also a guy who disabled indexing on my Walthers turntable.
If you could find a Walthers Bascule Bridge kit for under $200, it would be a worthwhile purchase. There have been several recent sales and completed auctions on eBay for under $200.
Alton Junction
Bayfield Transfer RailwayI'm old enough to remember when Atlas first announced their RTR tank cars and how everybody said they'd never sell... and they were gone in a flash. Atlas obviously had really good demographic data and figured out the product that the public wanted.
Way back in the Jurassic age when Athearn was making RTR cars for Atlas the cry then was who's going to buy any RTR Athearn car yet,they sold.The link shows the sets with Atlas engines/Athearn cars but,the cars could be bought separately under the Atlas name.
http://hoseeker.net/gallery/index.php?album=otherhotrains%2Fatlas-train-sets&image=7003_4_SD24_Burlington.jpg
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
richhotrain OK, how about this then. It is more than I would normally expect to pay, ergo, it is priced too high, since my expectations are reasonable as a consumer. Rich
OK, how about this then.
- Douglas
zstripe This thread is starting to sound like being in a playground, on a kids teeter-totter. Frankie
This thread is starting to sound like being in a playground, on a kids teeter-totter.
Frankie
And, of course, that is due to childish remarks and cartoons like this.
The definitions of high prices and low quality are a matter of opinion. But, as a general rule, a person's impatience, impulse, or desire for convenience raises prices. In those circumstances, a person is paying for something else other than a manufacturer's cost plus a percentage profit.
With RTR, manufacturer's have provided the consumer the option to pay for convenience, and they are executing it. In this case, convenience being partly defined as the willingness to hire someone to build us a model. That will always cost more than building it ourself.
Whether or not you are satisfied with the quality of that model, relative to what you could build on your own, is for each person to decide. For many items, I'll buy RTR. For other items, I wouldn't even consider it.
Bayfield Transfer Railway richhotrain Of course, lost in this argument is the notion that you cannot get more for less. Why not? You presume that model railroading items are fairly priced. I am not so sure that is true. When you are dealing with a segment of the population that is retired or nearly retired and has discretionary funds, it is a lot easier to overcharge, and my sense is that this is what is being done in the model railroading hobby. Rich "Fairly priced" is a red herring. Model railroad products are a luxury good, and like any luxury good, they are priced "all the market will bear." Any basic Econ text will discuss the 'maximum revenue' curve and how pricing affects it."More than I happen to want to pay" is not the same as "priced too high."
richhotrain Of course, lost in this argument is the notion that you cannot get more for less. Why not? You presume that model railroading items are fairly priced. I am not so sure that is true. When you are dealing with a segment of the population that is retired or nearly retired and has discretionary funds, it is a lot easier to overcharge, and my sense is that this is what is being done in the model railroading hobby. Rich
Of course, lost in this argument is the notion that you cannot get more for less. Why not?
You presume that model railroading items are fairly priced. I am not so sure that is true. When you are dealing with a segment of the population that is retired or nearly retired and has discretionary funds, it is a lot easier to overcharge, and my sense is that this is what is being done in the model railroading hobby.
"Fairly priced" is a red herring. Model railroad products are a luxury good, and like any luxury good, they are priced "all the market will bear." Any basic Econ text will discuss the 'maximum revenue' curve and how pricing affects it."More than I happen to want to pay" is not the same as "priced too high."
trwroute now very few still build kits. Sad.
now very few still build kits. Sad.
Why? Why is it sad? Very few people hand-braid their own buggy whips any more, either. Is that sad? Very few people play Mah Jongg in the US as opposed to the 1930s. Is that sad?Not having to put time into each and every car, and not having to put multiple evenings into a locomotive just to get it to run well and look decent, means I have more time available for other projects, including improving the realism of my operating sessions, and spending my modeling time on things I can't buy instead of on things I do buy just to make them work.
And as several others have pointed out, there are still a plethora of kits out there for those who want to build them.
I don't think it's a case of "the manufacturers decided on RTR not kits and the buying public went along;" I think it's "kits stopped selling and the manufacturers decided to change their strategy."I'm old enough to remember when Atlas first announced their RTR tank cars and how everybody said they'd never sell... and they were gone in a flash. Atlas obviously had really good demographic data and figured out the product that the public wanted.Way back when I got my MBA (Carlson Graduate School of Business, University of Minnesota, 1987) there was a highly esoteric technical term for companies that did NOT make the product the public wanted.That term is "out of business."If people didn't WANT RTR, the manufacturers wouldn't be making RTR stuff.
trwroute Bayfield Transfer Railway Their first goal is to stay in business, which means they need a certain profit margin. If they would make more profit by making kits rather than ready to run models, they would be doing that.For that matter, even though Athearn stopped making kits in 2009, I have yet to be in a hobby shop or at a model railroad flea market that wasn't flooded with Athearn kits. Athearn and MDC kits sat stagnant on shelves for years; that's why they aren't being made any more. MOST PEOPLE DO NOT BUY KITS. Every hobby shop owner I've ever talked to except one has said that Athearn kits STILL sit on their shelves, while the latest and greatest ready to run flies off so fast it leaves scorch marks on the shelf. And the one that said differently is now out of business. Of course they need to make a certain amount of profit to stay afloat. That is precisely one of the reasons why there is so much RTR stuff available. They make money on both the parts and the labor. As far as most people not buying kits, that is for a different discussion. But, in the old days, if you wanted to be a model railroader, you bought a kit and built it. Now, you just fork over 4 times the dough and plop it on the track. The manufacturers have spoiled the masses and now very few still build kits. Sad.
Bayfield Transfer Railway Their first goal is to stay in business, which means they need a certain profit margin. If they would make more profit by making kits rather than ready to run models, they would be doing that.For that matter, even though Athearn stopped making kits in 2009, I have yet to be in a hobby shop or at a model railroad flea market that wasn't flooded with Athearn kits. Athearn and MDC kits sat stagnant on shelves for years; that's why they aren't being made any more. MOST PEOPLE DO NOT BUY KITS. Every hobby shop owner I've ever talked to except one has said that Athearn kits STILL sit on their shelves, while the latest and greatest ready to run flies off so fast it leaves scorch marks on the shelf. And the one that said differently is now out of business.
Their first goal is to stay in business, which means they need a certain profit margin.
SP&S modeler, 1960's give or take a decade or two for some equipment.
http://www.youtube.com/user/SGTDUPREY?feature=guide
Gary DuPrey
N scale model railroader
Chuck - Modeling in HO scale and anything narrow gauge
BRAKIE Mike,You just mention the trap many needlessly falls into because they want to be the first guy at the club to own that Genesis GP40-2 with DCC/Sound even though they already have several Atlas GP40-2s.Why not add a sound decoder in the engines they already own?
Mike,You just mention the trap many needlessly falls into because they want to be the first guy at the club to own that Genesis GP40-2 with DCC/Sound even though they already have several Atlas GP40-2s.Why not add a sound decoder in the engines they already own?
And you have hit the nail on the head, sir.There's also the matter of "what are you going to do with it all?" My favorite part of the hobby is operations. I like having eight to ten friends over to run trains and switch cars.
Well, having a bunch of people playing with your toys increases the chance of something getting broken, even if everyone is being careful. It's no accident that my "Bayfield Transfer Railway" 50 foot boxcars are Athearn Railbox-type cars that I've painted and decaled. If one of them kisses the floor, I'm going to be a lot less upset than if a $40 Intermountain car hits the floor. I use a one color paint job and I like putting on decals, so I won't really mind if the Athearn car is unrepairable. And at the last CNWHS swap meet, there were hundreds of Athearn blue box Railbox-type cars available for $5 each, so I'm in no danger of running out.
trwroute Better yet, how about just coming out with more kits and me not having to pay anyone to assemble it? To me that makes a lot of sense. A lot of the stuff is tooled here, so lets keep it here. That would be the optimal idea...for me anyway...
Better yet, how about just coming out with more kits and me not having to pay anyone to assemble it? To me that makes a lot of sense. A lot of the stuff is tooled here, so lets keep it here.
That would be the optimal idea...for me anyway...
richhotrain Grand River Models Of course I'm exaggerating to make a point, and his is all written with tongue in cheek, but it's something to think about while we are talking about getting more for less. Of course, lost in this argument is the notion that you cannot get more for less. Why not? You presume that model railroading items are fairly priced. I am not so sure that is true. When you are dealing with a segment of the population that is retired or nearly retired and has discretionary funds, it is a lot easier to overcharge, and my sense is that this is what is being done in the model railroading hobby. Rich
Grand River Models Of course I'm exaggerating to make a point, and his is all written with tongue in cheek, but it's something to think about while we are talking about getting more for less.
Of course I'm exaggerating to make a point, and his is all written with tongue in cheek, but it's something to think about while we are talking about getting more for less.
I've been saving and sitting on money for those SP&S GP9's and by the time friday of next week rolls around I'll have them ordered. Perhaps the threads take such drastic twists and turns is because you have a majority group and outliers, it seems that the outliers on this forum are the group of people I'm in "Not retired." If you are being overcharged then it's like Brakie said the used model market is a great place to get models, much of my current fleet of locomotives and cars comes from there.
Grand River Models Perhaps we could convince manufacturers to move production away from China to some country where children can be employed to make our trains. Or better yet, maybe I can shackle someone in my basement and slide stale bread under the door while they build my benchwork for me. Of course I'm exaggerating to make a point, and his is all written with tongue in cheek, but it's something to think about while we are talking about getting more for less.
Perhaps we could convince manufacturers to move production away from China to some country where children can be employed to make our trains.
Or better yet, maybe I can shackle someone in my basement and slide stale bread under the door while they build my benchwork for me.
Barry
mlehmanBecause when you start seeing this hobby -- or any other -- through the dollar signs, there's other issues in life you probably need to settle first.
Well said Mike. I have said basicly the same thing on the forum before.
I am just a bum with a high school education. When I was a kid the two things that would throw a bit of concern into the face of my parents was the mortgage and car payments. So I swore I would never have to deal with these as an adult and I never have. I have never borrowed a dime for anything in my life. My house is nicer than some of my friends and dumpier than others. I could afford to live in a $10.00 house, but choose to live in an $8.00 house instead. The reason being is I don't want to count my pennies and I want to be able to buy things whenever I want. The wife and two kids and myself can hop a plane to Hawaii at any time without thinking about it. My parents couldn't do that as they pushed themselves to the brink with house and car payments.
Why can people make $300.00 a month car payments but not keep putting that $300.00 away for the next car after the first car is payed for?
If you put every last penny into just living, thats fine. But you should consider that your hobby.
Brent
"All of the world's problems are the result of the difference between how we think and how the world works."
I agree, Corey. This is turning into a good thread.
There have been some comments by a few of you that I believe strongly about. The used market is the way to go for me. I prefer the older items and so many of them don't cost an arm and a leg. While I can afford the latest and greatest loco, I choose not to. I don't preorder anything; in fact I don't purchase many new items anymore. The new things that I purchase are track, couplers, detail parts, etc. Nothing high-dollar.
Good observation, Corey.
As I mentioned earlier, I did not start the thread facetiously, although it was somewhat intended to counter the recurring "high cost of hobby" threads.
Don't we all yearn for high quality at a low price?
Over the past few years, I have found myself searching the Internet for bargains, deals and closeouts on new items of higher quality.
I was following the silliness of this thread earlier in it's life. It was so silly, I was about to ask the question if your toast was dcc compatible! Those who have been around a while would know about that ridiculous toast thread. I come back today and this thread has managed to shed those silly ways and turn into serious conversation. Not sure why I'm commenting on this, just an observation. Time to move on I guess!
BRAKIEThere are cheaper ways to enjoy the hobby without the need to refinance the farm every time a new model hits the street..One way is the use market and that market is booming.There is no shame buying a quality used locomotive at fraction of the price. But,in the end it amounts to a Jones/Smith thing and that habit is hard to break since many follows that pattern in every day life..
Amen to that, Brother Larry.
The interesting things about the hobby is that you're just buying parts. Yes, even that super-duper new GP40-2 with all the bells and whistles is simply a part of something bigger. Notwithstanding the folks who do simply buy them as a collectible or to superdetail, it's not until you place it in the context of something bigger, more magical, and that only you can construct does it really come to life.
It's what you do with all those parts that counts in this hobby. If you limit yourself to just buying the $250 part, expecting it to do something for you that a similar $50 part doesn't do, you're likely missing the point of the hobby anyway. Making things fit together to represent the real in a recognizable form is where it's at, not the total on any invoice.
Your point on the values found on the used market is especially important in this regard. There are few hobbies that sustain such a rich and often very affordable secondary market. Anyone with a little patience can usually find what they need, maybe needing to wait a few months and look around, and often at surprisingly reasonable cost.
I hear you on the budget still not stretching far enough. But once the layout is past critical mass stage and you have the usual "hobby shop in miniature" it's possible to coast a long way without spending much at all. That's certainly been the case here the last few years and I'm still not to the bottom of the barrel with neat projects waiting on the shelves.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
mlehmanGotta do what you can to afford the hobby. But if there's a fundamental mismatch between your resources and your desires in anything, it's not good. Your kids shouldn't be on a bread and milk diet so you can afford the latest set of Genesis F units, for instance. But if you're in constant anxiety over being able to afford a hobby, it's time to set down and evaluate how to more economically enjoy the hobby you have or downsize to a hobby you can afford. The world isn't going to change so you feel you can afford the hobby. You must adjust to the realities and budgets you have to work with.
There are cheaper ways to enjoy the hobby without the need to refinance the farm every time a new model hits the street..One way is the use market and that market is booming.There is no shame buying a quality used locomotive at fraction of the price.
But,in the end it amounts to a Jones/Smith thing and that habit is hard to break since many follows that pattern in every day life..
Bayfield Transfer Railway Golf green fees can be $100 per single game, easily.
I am not saying that model railroading is the most expensive of hobbies.
Maybe it's just that many, if not most, hobbies are expensive.
But there are a lot less expensive hobbies, especially as it relates to start up costs.
Model railroading is, indeed, an expensive hobby.
I can afford it, but I feel the sting every time I make a purchase.
When I was a kid, I built and flew rockets. I was always losing those darn things, because I built them to fly high -- it was the 60s Space Age, after all.
At least if I crash something on the layout, I can find most of the pieces...
Gotta do what you can to afford the hobby. But if there's a fundamental mismatch between your resources and your desires in anything, it's not good. Your kids shouldn't be on a bread and milk diet so you can afford the latest set of Genesis F units, for instance. But if you're in constant anxiety over being able to afford a hobby, it's time to set down and evaluate how to more economically enjoy the hobby you have or downsize to a hobby you can afford. The world isn't going to change so you feel you can afford the hobby. You must adjust to the realities and budgets you have to work with.
Having something priced 20% cheaper isn't going to change much when it comes to enjoying the hobby, either. If you're not finding enjoyment in what you're doing at the present with the present cost structure, aren't you only going to feel maybe 20% better about the money you're spending if it's just that increment cheaper? Because when you start seeing this hobby -- or any other -- through the dollar signs, there's other issues in life you probably need to settle first.