Just Think if Quality Were High and Prices Were Low

[trwroute]

Burlington Northern #24

  Go to trainboard and look over the N scale section, a bunch of those guys make their own stuff and build kits. If I can land an SP&S 24' caboose craftsman kit on Ebay, I'm going to build that, We as modelers can either mope about the situation or make something of it. 

 Now that I'm part of an omni rail group I can focus more time on the part of the hobby I want to give a shot like building kits, making proper SP&S passenger car, and scratchbuilding. Give it time, N scale is about to get a big boost in kits via 3D printed models. they're working on a plastic MILW road Little Joe, Baldwin DT6-6-2000, they've made UP's excursion tenders, etc. 

THe way it seems N scale's future will probably have scoresof 3D printed locomotive and car kits.

 

I've been a member of trainboard for 10 years and I believe that it's the best N scale board out there.  I am certainly not moping, I have shown a lot of projects on different boards over the years and will continue to do so.  I love to scratchbuild and kitbash things that no one else does.

If I remember correctly, there was an N Scale magazine article in the early 90's that had an article about bashing one of the SP&S 24' cabooses using the Micro-Trains wood sided caboose.

I hope 3D printing is not the future of this hobby unless the castings get WAY better first.  While I have seen some that look decent, to me most look unusable.

[BRAKIE]

Bayfield Transfer Railway

But the good news is, BECAUSE we have the $350 Athearn Genesis GP7, we ALSO have the Bachmann $65 "Generic" GP7 WITH DCC INCLUDED.

And now it comes with DCC/Sound around $112.00(street)-a option for those that don't want to shell out the extra dineros for the Genesis Geep.

But..

I've seen the Genesis DCC/Sound GP7/9s for as low as $149.00 on line and DCC ready for $99.00.

I fully believe if some would take some time away from TV or perhaps let go of their sweeties hand just long enough to shop they would find some excellent deals on e-Bay and the better on line shops.

If one chooses to shell out full MSRP at their LHS then I can understand the hand wringing over the prices.

 

[richhotrain]

Doughless

 Although I think Rich created this thread to be a spoof on those reocurring threads, 

[Bayfield Transfer Railway]

Werl, these "the hobby is too expensive" discussions happen on every forum for every hobby, so yeah, they're a perennial.

For that matter you can find them in the Model Railroader letter columns back in the 1940s.

But the good news is, BECAUSE we have the $350 Athearn Genesis GP7, we ALSO have the Bachmann $65 "Generic" GP7 WITH DCC INCLUDED.  If you've ever seen one, or seen the reviews, it's smooth running, quiet, and excellently proportioned.  If I didn't already HAVE a bunch of Proto GP7s, I'd be getting the Bachmann ones... a Bachmann GP7, a BLMA handgrab drill template for $5, a pack of grab irons and eye bolts for 1.50 each... heck, what's not to like?  And it's a well proportioned styrene body, so kitbash away!  Want a Paducah GP8?  There ya go!

If they do a Phase II GP9, I'll grab one instantly for my model of MILW 999 with the chop hood.

But Bachmann produces that model because Athearn and Walthers and Proto et al have done the "heavy lifting."  I remember when DCC decoders were about $35 each for a bare bones, never mind installed in an engine for $65.

 

[Doughless]

Bayfield Transfer Railway

But we have products available today that were literally unthinkable 20 years ago. 

20 years ago, an HO scale GP7 meant "Athearn GP7 called a GP9....Now I can not only get different phases of GP7 and GP9, I can get them not only correctly painted, but correctly DETAILED for different roads.

 

As someone who I see has about 60 posts, you may or may not know that these, Price Of The Hobby, (as well as some other topics), types of threads reocurr.  Many members here have heard it all before.

Although I think Rich created this thread to be a spoof on those reocurring threads, the title "What if quality was high and prices were low" implies the opposite is what people complain about, that prices are high and quality is low.

I don't think that's true at all. I think with the increased prices, increases in "quality"  (meaning features and accuracy) has come with it.  We get what we pay for, and its worth every penny....if that's the service you want.

Now, I don't care to pay for that service...yes it is a service....not a product.  I don't want to hire Athearn, or any producer, to build me a model that is custom detailed and painted for a particular railroad.  Custom anything is always more expensive than generic anything, and I'll take the generic service thank you...if there is that option left when I want a new item.....but apparently, the producers are finding enough customers that want the custom-build service. 

I remember on the old Atlas forum, many of the members basically demanded that producers provide the custom service...in so many words.  They were less of a producer if they didn't.

But my relative insulation from the issues within the new-product(service)-buying segment of the hobby is due to my choices and goals and nobody else's. There is only me to blame for how I approach the hobby.

[Bayfield Transfer Railway]

Prices may be "higher than I like" (which, by the bye, is NOT the same as "too high".)

But we have products available today that were literally unthinkable 20 years ago.  Research and development takes serious money, and limited runs and higher prices are a very big part of the reason that manufacturers even HAVE a R&D budget.

20 years ago, an HO scale GP7 meant "Athearn GP7 called a GP9, or Front Range shells if you can find them because Front Range went out of business."  Now I can not only get different phases of GP7 and GP9, I can get them not only correctly painted, but correctly DETAILED for different roads.

And a Bachmann GP7 has a street price of about $65 with DCC included, and you don't have to fool around carving stuff off before you start detailing it, so those who want to "do it themselves" can do that, too.

[BATMAN]

richhotrain

Just think if quality were high and prices were low.

Well I would be in...... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fCPs8bZ-KhE

 

[Doughless]

Bayfield Transfer Railway

80% of sales in virtually all fields come from 20% of the customers.  (The Pareto Principle, for those of you who want to look it up.)  Those 20% of customers are where an intelligent company spends 80% of its effort, which means the other 80% of us take the last 20% of the company's effort.  

 

That is a good point.  In MRR terms, what that means is that the producers are catering to the segment of the MRR community that wants to buy new models, or new road numbers, or new paint schemes on a frequent basis.   

Personally, I would never blame the producers for doing that. 

[richhotrain]

Bayfield Transfer Railway

All this amounts to is "something costs more than I happen to want to pay."

As the saying goes, true but irrelevant.  Model railroads are a luxury good, and basic Econ 101 says that you keep raising the price on a luxury good until sales decline to the point where the total revenue curve flattens.

And most manufacturers of ANYTHING would rather sell a smaller number at a higher price if they could; it's easier.

Athearn and other kits sat on shelves for years.  That's why manufacturers switched to limited runs; they actually get their money back within the same decade as they come out with the product.

Prices continue to go up; therefore, production runs continue to sell out.  If the manufacturer sells all the models they want to sell, then no, prices are not too high.

I'm going to say that again because it's important.  If the manufacturer sells all the models they want to sell, prices are not to high.

80% of sales in virtually all fields come from 20% of the customers.  (The Pareto Principle, for those of you who want to look it up.)  Those 20% of customers are where an intelligent company spends 80% of its effort, which means the other 80% of us take the last 20% of the company's effort.  Ferrari really does not care that most people think its automobiles are too expensive; those people are not their customers.

Companies that don't work to maximize their return go out of business.

One may not like this, but one may as well complain about the law of gravity.

 

 

Michael, I pretty much agree with everything you say.

But I'm gonna repeat the title of my thread because it is the only point that I wish to make.

Just think if quality were high and prices were low.

Rich

[Burlington Northern #24]

trwroute

 

 

Burlington Northern #24

 They sold did they not? IM saw that RTR was the way to go, where they went their fans went. I won't claim to have any knowledge of economics but money talks.

 

 

 

Well, yeah, but that kind of proves my point.  When the vast majority of IM N scale kits were made, they did not offer RTR at all.  So if you wanted an N scale car with separate grabs and ladders, back then you had to buy the Intermountain kits.

Like I said earlier, RTR has spoiled the masses and very few still want to build their own.  RTR is a money maker for the manufacturers, no doubt about that.  It just kind of sucks for some, including me. 

All I can say is I appreciate companies like Tichy and LaBelle for offering their great kits, and after purchasing Kadee trucks and couplers, they will still be 100% American made.

 

Go to trainboard and look over the N scale section, a bunch of those guys make their own stuff and build kits. If I can land an SP&S 24' caboose craftsman kit on Ebay, I'm going to build that, We as modelers can either mope about the situation or make something of it. 

Now that I'm part of an omni rail group I can focus more time on the part of the hobby I want to give a shot like building kits, making proper SP&S passenger car, and scratchbuilding. Give it time, N scale is about to get a big boost in kits via 3D printed models. they're working on a plastic MILW road Little Joe, Baldwin DT6-6-2000, they've made UP's excursion tenders, etc. 

THe way it seems N scale's future will probably have scoresof 3D printed locomotive and car kits.

 

[Bayfield Transfer Railway]

All this amounts to is "something costs more than I happen to want to pay."

As the saying goes, true but irrelevant.  Model railroads are a luxury good, and basic Econ 101 says that you keep raising the price on a luxury good until sales decline to the point where the total revenue curve flattens.

And most manufacturers of ANYTHING would rather sell a smaller number at a higher price if they could; it's easier.

Athearn and other kits sat on shelves for years.  That's why manufacturers switched to limited runs; they actually get their money back within the same decade as they come out with the product.

Prices continue to go up; therefore, production runs continue to sell out.  If the manufacturer sells all the models they want to sell, then no, prices are not too high.

I'm going to say that again because it's important.  If the manufacturer sells all the models they want to sell, prices are not to high.

80% of sales in virtually all fields come from 20% of the customers.  (The Pareto Principle, for those of you who want to look it up.)  Those 20% of customers are where an intelligent company spends 80% of its effort, which means the other 80% of us take the last 20% of the company's effort.  Ferrari really does not care that most people think its automobiles are too expensive; those people are not their customers.

Companies that don't work to maximize their return go out of business.

One may not like this, but one may as well complain about the law of gravity.

 

[trwroute]

Burlington Northern #24

 They sold did they not? IM saw that RTR was the way to go, where they went their fans went. I won't claim to have any knowledge of economics but money talks.

 

Well, yeah, but that kind of proves my point.  When the vast majority of IM N scale kits were made, they did not offer RTR at all.  So if you wanted an N scale car with separate grabs and ladders, back then you had to buy the Intermountain kits.

Like I said earlier, RTR has spoiled the masses and very few still want to build their own.  RTR is a money maker for the manufacturers, no doubt about that.  It just kind of sucks for some, including me. 

All I can say is I appreciate companies like Tichy and LaBelle for offering their great kits, and after purchasing Kadee trucks and couplers, they will still be 100% American made.

[Doughless]

richhotrain

I am going to restate my original premise.

Quality is high, but the prices are too steep.  Prices could be lower but the manufacturers know that a segement of the population with discretionary funds will pay any price to get what they want.  But, there are other segments of the market without the necessary discretionary funds, so demand is low.

The proof is in the pudding.  More and more pre-orders.  Buy it when it first comes out or resort later to eBay and pay even more outrageous prices.  Shortages of needed items up the whazoo.

If I were a manufacturer, would I rather sell 100 items at $100 each or 200 items at $50 each.   It doesn't matter.  So they win, we lose.  Participation in the model railroading hobby becomes more limited.

Rich

So if you have a complaint embedded in that statement, is it with the manufacturers, or with your fellow consumers?

A weird comparison here.....in the early 80's, Chrysler invented the minivan.  It soon became favored by families, or people who carried multiple passengers.  What's odd is, it wasn't until about 2000 that a "drivers side passenger door" became standard equipment.  IOW, for about 15 years, a vehicle that was sold as a people carrier.... only had three doors.  Odd.  Something that defied logic sold well.  Was it the manufacturer's who thrust that oddness on the consumer, or was it the consumer who continued to buy the rather odd vehicle for rather odd reasons?  If it ain' broke don't fix it.  The manufacturers built what sold.

Who are these model railroad consumers who need to continuously buy new stuff?  Manufacturers are coming out with new models all of the time, and at high prices.  Personally, my trains last a long time.  Once bought, I don't need to buy much else.  Are people really switching eras, scales, new layouts that require new equipment, that often? 

I think manufacturers produce new models because there is a segment of the model railroad consumer that buys new models simply because they are produced. 

Why would a company stop?  It makes me think that our buddy Sheldon is right...its the train collector that is causing this issue, not the manufacturers. 

 

[BRAKIE]

mlehman

Space: You can just build models, but many want a layout and that does take some space to build. This can greatly affect perceptions of access to the hobby

Mike,The lack of space for a decent size layout may be one reason we are seeing more along one or two walls ISLs built..

I realized switching industries isn't everybody's cup of tea but,many has taken that path and I highly suspect cost is one of the reasons..

[Burlington Northern #24]

trwroute

 

 

Burlington Northern #24

 I have looked at their site, they say the same thing for all their locos, yet when I go trawling on EBay these kits pop up en masse. IM makes it'sproducts and then ships them out, they're not going to hold them until HE double hockeysticks freezes over. 

 Companies like the ones creating MR products would be running on borrowed time if they operated like they used to.

 

 

 

 

As of right now, there are 84 IM N scale kits on eBay.  Most of those are from the same seller.  I would consider this the second hand market.  Keep in mind that IM made most of the kits in the mid to late 90's.  I would say that over 90% of the ones on eBay are from that era.

 

So, how many do they make today?  I would venture a guess and say next to zero.

 

They sold did they not? IM saw that RTR was the way to go, where they went their fans went. I won't claim to have any knowledge of economics but money talks.

[mlehman]

Kits and undecs are out there. Lots easy to find (Blue Boxes) while others not so easy. But what's being made. RTR. If you order them, you can often get undecs and kits from IM, Atlas, and others. But demand is clearly in the RTR market.

Yes, kits can help you cut a few costs. Undecs, not so much once you factor in details and paint, but YMMV. But this a only a very small part of building a layout. The difference between Shake the Box and Shake Outta the Box is unlikely to tip the hobby into the affordable column unless it's somewhere close to begin with.

To me, that difference is so little in the overall scheme of things it means little in terms of whether new folks are attracted to the hobby or not. While price gets lots of commentary from the narrow segment of the modelling community who make it a major theme of their online presence, there are so many other reasons for whether or not people find themeselves enjoying the hobby that cost is a small fraction of a much larger balance sheet. Things such as:

Prior exposure: A parent who's in the hobby or a relative who works for the railroad, Scouting merit badge, Thomas or Lego train enthusiast

Interest: Folks who build models of other stuff, but also virtual reality/game players, historians, and of course railfans

Skills: surprisingly few are needed these days with RTR, but building a layout is a bigger project that intimidates many, shop classes or family skill sets not so common, but high tech schooling and the makerspace movement both provide a way into gaining those skills, as well as the fact that many are computer-proficient

Space: You can just build models, but many want a layout and that does take some space to build. This can greatly affect perceptions of access to the hobby

Organizations: NMRA and other rail-associated orgs vary in the local profiles; there are probably fewer formal clubs and lot more modular groups than in the past and their outreach varies; a more mobile soceity is also one where it's more difficult to make the sort of supportive relationships that are vital to our hobby

Exposure: Shows consolidate or are dropped, LHS are dropping like flies, and the public in general doesn't think much about trains and how vital they are to the economy. Maybe the guy next door has a layout and doesn't mind sharing?

Competition: Kids have lots of things that call for their attention, as do older people who might be interested in the hobby. 100s of channels of TV, the internet, YouTube, social media. Some have lots of RR-related media, other virtually none

Options: We already mentioned the used market, ebay, and alternative places to shop, but there's always scratchbuilding, kit bashing, etc.

I can see lots of factors here that are at least as relevant to the growth of our hobby as the costs of RTR locos and cars, which only apply to a few (the LHS and Options) among this incomplete list of factors on gaining and retaining folks in the hobby. Maybe the hobby really is in trouble after all, for the sake of argument anyway, but the reason is that people fixate on pricing and ignore a whole lot of other factors we'd be well-advised to give more attention to, but might require some personal involvement?

[trwroute]

Burlington Northern #24

 I have looked at their site, they say the same thing for all their locos, yet when I go trawling on EBay these kits pop up en masse. IM makes it'sproducts and then ships them out, they're not going to hold them until HE double hockeysticks freezes over. 

 Companies like the ones creating MR products would be running on borrowed time if they operated like they used to.

 

 

As of right now, there are 84 IM N scale kits on eBay.  Most of those are from the same seller.  I would consider this the second hand market.  Keep in mind that IM made most of the kits in the mid to late 90's.  I would say that over 90% of the ones on eBay are from that era.

 

So, how many do they make today?  I would venture a guess and say next to zero.

[Burlington Northern #24]

trwroute

 

 

Burlington Northern #24

  At my own risk I'm going to disagree with that last bit, Intermountain has been running N scale 40' boxcar kits like mad. manufacturers have not spoiled the masses, kits are out there. the Mark 1 eyeball, and you search engine are good tools for finding kits.

 

 

 

Yes, Intermountain does make some undec N scale kits.  But, have you looked at their website?  All of the N scale kits, except for 4, say to contact your dealer.  That tells me that IM does not have them in stock, otherwise it would say so.  So, it doesn't seem that they are running them like mad. 

Fortunately, a friend gave me 30 IM N scale car kits and a few have spent their time in the paint stripper so I can mess around with them.

 

I have looked at their site, they say the same thing for all their locos, yet when I go trawling on EBay these kits pop up en masse. IM makes it'sproducts and then ships them out, they're not going to hold them until HE double hockeysticks freezes over. 

Companies like the ones creating MR products would be running on borrowed time if they operated like they used to.

[b60bp]

BRAKIE

--------------------------- Go with the flow. ------------------------- I've heard it said only dead fish go with the flow.

 

And objects in the sewer.

[trwroute]

zstripe

  so why get upset over it?

I may seem like it upsets me, but it really doesn't that much because, like you, I can't change it.  I'm just the kind of person that voices my opinion when I see something that ain't right.  To me, this doesn't seem right.

[trwroute]

Burlington Northern #24

  At my own risk I'm going to disagree with that last bit, Intermountain has been running N scale 40' boxcar kits like mad. manufacturers have not spoiled the masses, kits are out there. the Mark 1 eyeball, and you search engine are good tools for finding kits.

 

Yes, Intermountain does make some undec N scale kits.  But, have you looked at their website?  All of the N scale kits, except for 4, say to contact your dealer.  That tells me that IM does not have them in stock, otherwise it would say so.  So, it doesn't seem that they are running them like mad. 

Fortunately, a friend gave me 30 IM N scale car kits and a few have spent their time in the paint stripper so I can mess around with them.

[trwroute]

Bayfield Transfer Railway

 trwroute

now very few still build kits.  Sad.

 

 

 

Why?  Why is it sad?  Very few people hand-braid their own buggy whips any more, either.  Is that sad?  Very few people play Mah Jongg in the US as opposed to the 1930s.  Is that sad?

And as several others have pointed out, there are still a plethora of kits out there for those who want to build them.

 

 

To answer your first question...Yes, it is sad.  Personally, I have always gotten more enjoyment out of the hobby because I have BUILT something.  Besides, the only topic that we are discussing is model railroading.

 

Yes, there are a few kits available.  But, who wants to pay $20 for an undec Red Caboose or an HO Intermountain boxcar?  I feel they are priced high to make us feel like the decorated RTR's aren't such a bad deal.  That is where the used market comes in and that is why almost all of my stuff comes from that.

[richhotrain]

I am going to restate my original premise.

Quality is high, but the prices are too steep.  Prices could be lower but the manufacturers know that a segement of the population with discretionary funds will pay any price to get what they want.  But, there are other segments of the market without the necessary discretionary funds, so demand is low.

The proof is in the pudding.  More and more pre-orders.  Buy it when it first comes out or resort later to eBay and pay even more outrageous prices.  Shortages of needed items up the whazoo.

If I were a manufacturer, would I rather sell 100 items at $100 each or 200 items at $50 each.   It doesn't matter.  So they win, we lose.  Participation in the model railroading hobby becomes more limited.

Rich

[zstripe]

richhotrain

 

 

zstripe

This thread is starting to sound like being in a playground, on a kids teeter-totter. 

Frankie

 

 

 

 

And, of course, that is due to childish remarks and cartoons like this.   

Rich

 

 

Rich,

Your....Turn. 

I have to go ballast some more track.

Frank

[richhotrain]

zstripe

Everyone is entitled to their opinion and mine being, that the way things are now adays, there is absolutely nothing I as an individual have any control over, so why get upset over it? Go with the flow...If I can afford it, I buy it, plain and simple, end of conversation.

Who's upset?   

Rich

[BRAKIE]

zstripe

there is absolutely nothing I as an individual have any control over, so why get upset over it?

You perhaps but,I stop buying their products since there's tons of older stuff and newer use on the market at reasonable costs.

---------------------------

Go with the flow.

-------------------------

I've heard it said only dead fish go with the flow.

[BRAKIE]

richhotrain

Younger folks with less discretionary cash cannot participate as much as they might like to or not at all.

That includes a lot of retirees-not all retirees are rich.

---------------------------------------------------

The one question that can not be answered except by the manufacturers is how many locomotives and cars do they get out of a ton of materials or a large pallet size gaylord box of motors? Only the manufacturers knows and that's on a need to know bases.

 

[zstripe]

Seeing  that we're getting all serious, , in my experience while people want / demand quality, when it comes to putting their hands in their pocket to pay for it, in most cases, then it's a different story.

Cheers, the Bear.

 

Thanks Jabear,

This thread went from pointless and humor to some honest fun, to so called serious on a subject that has been discussed, just with a different title and ends up going in the same direction...no where. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and mine being, that the way things are now adays, there is absolutely nothing I as an individual have any control over, so why get upset over it? Go with the flow...If I can afford it, I buy it, plain and simple, end of conversation.

Have A Good Day All!

Frank

[richhotrain]

Bayfield Transfer Railway

 

 

richhotrain

It is more than I would normally expect to pay, ergo, it is priced too high, since my expectations are reasonable as a consumer.

Rich

 

 

 

 

 

Says who, other than you?  The manufacturers obviously say your expectations are not reasonable based on their pricing.  And since they resolutely remain in business, it seems that they are right, by the only metric that matters.

 

Says a lot of people including a lot of members of this forum.  As your time as a member of this forum grows, you will realize that a lot of people find model railroading to be an expensive hobby.  Like all hobbies, it is managed with discretionary funds, so retired folks with a lot of money spend it to satisfy their childhood fantasies.  Younger folks with less discretionary cash cannot participate as much as they might like to or not at all.  The hobby survives because a small segment of the population spends without question because they have the funds to do so.  Manufacturers know this so they get away with charging more for discretionary items than if they were essential items.  That's just a fact of economics.

Rich

[IRONROOSTER]

One issue that should be considered is how much quality is needed?  How much detail?

You can buy a top of the line tablesaw for $4000+, but do you really need that to build your benchwork?

Similarly, do I need full underbody detail on my boxcar?

In Z scale, do I need separately applied grab irons? N scale? etc.

Enjoy

Paul

["JaBear"]

Seeing  that we're getting all serious, , in my experience while people want / demand quality, when it comes to putting their hands in their pocket to pay for it, in most cases, then it's a different story.

Cheers, the Bear.

[Bayfield Transfer Railway]

richhotrain

It is more than I would normally expect to pay, ergo, it is priced too high, since my expectations are reasonable as a consumer.

Rich

 

 

Says who, other than you?  The manufacturers obviously say your expectations are not reasonable based on their pricing.  And since they resolutely remain in business, it seems that they are right, by the only metric that matters.

"How much one particular person feels like paying" is not a reasonable expectation.  "How much a hundred thousand people will pay on average" is.

Prices continue to go up and product continues to sell.

[richhotrain]

Doughless

Rich,

Semi-serious question here......

I remember a few years ago, you blessed the forum with a thread describing and showing your progress in completing the Walthers Bascule Bridge that you later handsomely placed on your layout.  IIRC, some things were easy, and somethings were phinnicky.

As a reasonable consumer, what would you pay to have someone build you one....or how much would you charge someone to build it for them?

BTW, shortly after your thread, I went to a train show and some guy was selling a very well done completed Walthers Bascule Bridge that he built and weathered.  He wanted $550.   I passed, and I don't know if he sold it or for how much.

 

I later built a second one to replicate the double bascule bridge here in Chicago at 16th Street.

Building the bascule bridges was no big deal.  The problem that I had was getting the bridges to operate properly.

So, I eventually disabled the motors and left the bridges in the down position.  The motor was reliable enough, but the gears were plastic and travelled on a plastic arm which easily warps.  So, there was a lot of binding.  If I were interested in smooth reliable operation, I would convert the gears to metal as well as the arm that the gears travel on.

I bought the first bridge for $90 and the second one for $125.  Now, I see that a few are available on eBay for $500. That is outrageous!  I wouldn't spend $500 on a bridge.  

Would I buy a Walthers Bascule Bridge built and weathered with a reliably operating motorized system for $500?  Maybe, but probably not.

While an operating bridge is cool, my main objective is operating trains, not raising and lowering bridges.  But, I am also a guy who disabled indexing on my Walthers turntable.

If you could find a Walthers Bascule Bridge kit for under $200, it would be a worthwhile purchase.  There have been several recent sales and completed auctions on eBay for under $200.

Rich

[BRAKIE]

Bayfield Transfer Railway

I'm old enough to remember when Atlas first announced their RTR tank cars and how everybody said they'd never sell... and they were gone in a flash. Atlas obviously had really good demographic data and figured out the product that the public wanted.

Way back in the Jurassic age when Athearn was making RTR cars for Atlas the cry then was who's going to buy any RTR Athearn car yet,they sold.The link shows the sets with Atlas engines/Athearn cars but,the cars could be bought separately under the Atlas name.

http://hoseeker.net/gallery/index.php?album=otherhotrains%2Fatlas-train-sets&image=7003_4_SD24_Burlington.jpg

[Doughless]

richhotrain

 

 

OK, how about this then.

It is more than I would normally expect to pay, ergo, it is priced too high, since my expectations are reasonable as a consumer.

Rich

 

Rich,

Semi-serious question here......

I remember a few years ago, you blessed the forum with a thread describing and showing your progress in completing the Walthers Bascule Bridge that you later handsomely placed on your layout.  IIRC, some things were easy, and somethings were phinnicky.

As a reasonable consumer, what would you pay to have someone build you one....or how much would you charge someone to build it for them?

BTW, shortly after your thread, I went to a train show and some guy was selling a very well done completed Walthers Bascule Bridge that he built and weathered.  He wanted $550.   I passed, and I don't know if he sold it or for how much.

[richhotrain]

zstripe

This thread is starting to sound like being in a playground, on a kids teeter-totter. 

Frankie

 

And, of course, that is due to childish remarks and cartoons like this.   

Rich

[Doughless]

The definitions of high prices and low quality are a matter of opinion.  But, as a general rule, a person's impatience, impulse, or desire for convenience raises prices.  In those circumstances, a person is paying for something else other than a manufacturer's cost plus a percentage profit. 

With RTR, manufacturer's have provided the consumer the option to pay for convenience, and they are executing it. In this case, convenience being partly defined as the willingness to hire someone to build us a model.  That will always cost more than building it ourself.

Whether or not you are satisfied with the quality of that model, relative to what you could build on your own, is for each person to decide.  For many items, I'll buy RTR.  For other items, I wouldn't even consider it.

[zstripe]

This thread is starting to sound like being in a playground, on a kids teeter-totter. 

Frankie

[richhotrain]

Bayfield Transfer Railway

 

 

richhotrain

Of course, lost in this argument is the notion that you cannot get more for less.  Why not?

You presume that model railroading items are fairly priced.  I am not so sure that is true.  When you are dealing with a segment of the population that is retired or nearly retired and has discretionary funds, it is a lot easier to overcharge, and my sense is that this is what is being done in the model railroading hobby.

Rich

 

 

 

 

 

"Fairly priced" is a red herring.  Model railroad products are a luxury good, and like any luxury good, they are priced "all the market will bear."  Any basic Econ text will discuss the 'maximum revenue' curve and how pricing affects it.

"More than I happen to want to pay" is not the same as "priced too high." 

 

OK, how about this then.

It is more than I would normally expect to pay, ergo, it is priced too high, since my expectations are reasonable as a consumer.

Rich

[Bayfield Transfer Railway]

trwroute

now very few still build kits.  Sad.

Why?  Why is it sad?  Very few people hand-braid their own buggy whips any more, either.  Is that sad?  Very few people play Mah Jongg in the US as opposed to the 1930s.  Is that sad?

Not having to put time into each and every car, and not having to put multiple evenings into a locomotive just to get it to run well and look decent, means I have more time available for other projects, including improving the realism of my operating sessions, and spending my modeling time on things I can't buy instead of on things I do buy just to make them work.

And as several others have pointed out, there are still a plethora of kits out there for those who want to build them.

[Bayfield Transfer Railway]

I don't think it's a case of "the manufacturers decided on RTR not kits and the buying public went along;" I think it's "kits stopped selling and the manufacturers decided to change their strategy."

I'm old enough to remember when Atlas first announced their RTR tank cars and how everybody said they'd never sell... and they were gone in a flash.  Atlas obviously had really good demographic data and figured out the product that the public wanted.

Way back when I got my MBA (Carlson Graduate School of Business, University of Minnesota, 1987) there was a highly esoteric technical term for companies that did NOT make the product the public wanted.

That term is "out of business."

If people didn't WANT RTR, the manufacturers wouldn't be making RTR stuff.

 

[Burlington Northern #24]

trwroute

 

 

Bayfield Transfer Railway

 Their first goal is to stay in business, which means they need a certain profit margin.

If they would make more profit by making kits rather than ready to run models, they would be doing that.

For that matter, even though Athearn stopped making kits in 2009, I have yet to be in a hobby shop or at a model railroad flea market that wasn't flooded with Athearn kits.  Athearn and MDC kits sat stagnant on shelves for years; that's why they aren't being made any more.  MOST PEOPLE DO NOT BUY KITS.  Every hobby shop owner I've ever talked to except one has said that Athearn kits STILL sit on their shelves, while the latest and greatest ready to run flies off so fast it leaves scorch marks on the shelf.  And the one that said differently is now out of business.

 

 

 

 

 

Of course they need to make a certain amount of profit to stay afloat.  That is precisely one of the reasons why there is so much RTR stuff available.  They make money on both the parts and the labor.

 

As far as most people not buying kits, that is for a different discussion.  But, in the old days, if you wanted to be a model railroader, you bought a kit and built it.  Now, you just fork over 4 times the dough and plop it on the track.  The manufacturers have spoiled the masses and now very few still build kits.  Sad.

 

At my own risk I'm going to disagree with that last bit, Intermountain has been running N scale 40' boxcar kits like mad. manufacturers have not spoiled the masses, kits are out there. the Mark 1 eyeball, and you search engine are good tools for finding kits.

[trwroute]

Bayfield Transfer Railway

 Their first goal is to stay in business, which means they need a certain profit margin.

If they would make more profit by making kits rather than ready to run models, they would be doing that.

For that matter, even though Athearn stopped making kits in 2009, I have yet to be in a hobby shop or at a model railroad flea market that wasn't flooded with Athearn kits.  Athearn and MDC kits sat stagnant on shelves for years; that's why they aren't being made any more.  MOST PEOPLE DO NOT BUY KITS.  Every hobby shop owner I've ever talked to except one has said that Athearn kits STILL sit on their shelves, while the latest and greatest ready to run flies off so fast it leaves scorch marks on the shelf.  And the one that said differently is now out of business.

 

 

 

Of course they need to make a certain amount of profit to stay afloat.  That is precisely one of the reasons why there is so much RTR stuff available.  They make money on both the parts and the labor.

 

As far as most people not buying kits, that is for a different discussion.  But, in the old days, if you wanted to be a model railroader, you bought a kit and built it.  Now, you just fork over 4 times the dough and plop it on the track.  The manufacturers have spoiled the masses and now very few still build kits.  Sad.

[Bayfield Transfer Railway]

BRAKIE

Mike,You just mention the trap many needlessly falls into because they want to be the first guy at the club to own that Genesis GP40-2 with DCC/Sound even though they already have several Atlas GP40-2s.Why not add a sound decoder in the engines they already own?

And you have hit the nail on the head, sir.

There's also the matter of "what are you going to do with it all?"  My favorite part of the hobby is operations.  I like having eight to ten friends over to run trains and switch cars.

Well, having a bunch of people playing with your toys increases the chance of something getting broken, even if everyone is being careful.  It's no accident that my "Bayfield Transfer Railway" 50 foot boxcars are Athearn Railbox-type cars that I've painted and decaled.  If one of them kisses the floor, I'm going to be a lot less upset than if a $40 Intermountain car hits the floor.  I use a one color paint job and I like putting on decals, so I won't really mind if the Athearn car is unrepairable.  And at the last CNWHS swap meet, there were hundreds of Athearn blue box Railbox-type cars available for $5 each, so I'm in no danger of running out.

 

[Bayfield Transfer Railway]

trwroute

Better yet, how about just coming out with more kits and me not having to pay anyone to assemble it?  To me that makes a lot of sense.  A lot of the stuff is tooled here, so lets keep it here.

That would be the optimal idea...for me anyway...

 

 

Let us assume that the model manufacturers actually know what they are doing.

Their first goal is to stay in business, which means they need a certain profit margin.

If they would make more profit by making kits rather than ready to run models, they would be doing that.

For that matter, even though Athearn stopped making kits in 2009, I have yet to be in a hobby shop or at a model railroad flea market that wasn't flooded with Athearn kits.  Athearn and MDC kits sat stagnant on shelves for years; that's why they aren't being made any more.  MOST PEOPLE DO NOT BUY KITS.  Every hobby shop owner I've ever talked to except one has said that Athearn kits STILL sit on their shelves, while the latest and greatest ready to run flies off so fast it leaves scorch marks on the shelf.  And the one that said differently is now out of business.

 

[Bayfield Transfer Railway]

richhotrain

Of course, lost in this argument is the notion that you cannot get more for less.  Why not?

You presume that model railroading items are fairly priced.  I am not so sure that is true.  When you are dealing with a segment of the population that is retired or nearly retired and has discretionary funds, it is a lot easier to overcharge, and my sense is that this is what is being done in the model railroading hobby.

Rich

 

 

"Fairly priced" is a red herring.  Model railroad products are a luxury good, and like any luxury good, they are priced "all the market will bear."  Any basic Econ text will discuss the 'maximum revenue' curve and how pricing affects it.

"More than I happen to want to pay" is not the same as "priced too high." 

[Burlington Northern #24]

richhotrain

 

 

Grand River Models

Of course I'm exaggerating to make a point, and his is all written with tongue in cheek, but it's something to think about while we are talking about getting more for less.

 

 

 

 

 

Of course, lost in this argument is the notion that you cannot get more for less.  Why not?

You presume that model railroading items are fairly priced.  I am not so sure that is true.  When you are dealing with a segment of the population that is retired or nearly retired and has discretionary funds, it is a lot easier to overcharge, and my sense is that this is what is being done in the model railroading hobby.

Rich

 

For any of these posts why is that not considered a factor when the price of model railroading threads pop up, I'm generally posting in those threads using my experience as a 3 years into the workforce youngin who believes it only costs as much as you want it too. I'll admit I splurge but not enough to make me lament doing so.

I've been saving and sitting on money for those SP&S GP9's and by the time friday of next week rolls around I'll have them ordered. Perhaps the threads take such drastic twists and turns is because you have a majority group and outliers, it seems that the outliers on this forum are the group of people I'm in "Not retired." If you are being overcharged then it's like Brakie said the used model market is a great place to get models, much of my current fleet of locomotives and cars comes from there. 

[richhotrain]

Grand River Models

Of course I'm exaggerating to make a point, and his is all written with tongue in cheek, but it's something to think about while we are talking about getting more for less.

 

 

Of course, lost in this argument is the notion that you cannot get more for less.  Why not?

You presume that model railroading items are fairly priced.  I am not so sure that is true.  When you are dealing with a segment of the population that is retired or nearly retired and has discretionary funds, it is a lot easier to overcharge, and my sense is that this is what is being done in the model railroading hobby.

Rich

[trwroute]

Grand River Models

 Perhaps we could convince manufacturers to move production away from China to some country where children can be employed to make our trains.

Or better yet, maybe I can shackle someone in my basement and slide stale bread under the door while they build my benchwork for me.

Of course I'm exaggerating to make a point, and his is all written with tongue in cheek, but it's something to think about while we are talking about getting more for less.

 

Better yet, how about just coming out with more kits and me not having to pay anyone to assemble it?  To me that makes a lot of sense.  A lot of the stuff is tooled here, so lets keep it here.

That would be the optimal idea...for me anyway...

[Grand River Models]

 

Perhaps we could convince manufacturers to move production away from China to some country where children can be employed to make our trains.

Or better yet, maybe I can shackle someone in my basement and slide stale bread under the door while they build my benchwork for me.

Of course I'm exaggerating to make a point, and his is all written with tongue in cheek, but it's something to think about while we are talking about getting more for less.

 

[BATMAN]

mlehman

Because when you start seeing this hobby -- or any other -- through the dollar signs, there's other issues in life you probably need to settle first.

Well said Mike. I have said basicly the same thing on the forum before.

I am just a bum with a high school education. When I was a kid the two things that would throw a bit of concern into the face of my parents was the mortgage and car payments. So I swore I would never have to deal with these as an adult and I never have. I have never borrowed a dime for anything in my life. My house is nicer than some of my friends and dumpier than others. I could afford to live in a $10.00 house, but choose to live in an $8.00 house instead. The reason being is I don't want to count my pennies and I want to be able to buy things whenever I want. The wife and two kids and myself can hop a plane to Hawaii at any time without thinking about it. My parents couldn't do that as they pushed themselves to the brink with house and car payments. 

Why can people make $300.00 a month car payments but not keep putting that $300.00 away for the next car after the first car is payed for?

If you put every last penny into just living, thats fine. But you should consider that your hobby.

[trwroute]

I agree, Corey.  This is turning into a good thread.

There have been some comments by a few of you that I believe strongly about.  The used market is the way to go for me.  I prefer the older items and so many of them don't cost an arm and a leg.  While I can afford the latest and greatest loco, I choose not to.  I don't preorder anything; in fact I don't purchase many new items anymore.  The new things that I purchase are track, couplers, detail parts, etc.  Nothing high-dollar.

[richhotrain]

Good observation, Corey.

As I mentioned earlier, I did not start the thread facetiously, although it was somewhat intended to counter the recurring "high cost of hobby" threads.

Don't we all yearn for high quality at a low price?

Over the past few years, I have found myself searching the Internet for bargains, deals and closeouts on new items of higher quality.

Rich 

[secondhandmodeler]

I was following the silliness of this thread earlier in it's life.  It was so silly, I was about to ask the question if your toast was dcc compatible!  Those who have been around a while would know about that ridiculous  toast thread.  I come back today and this thread has managed to shed those silly ways and turn into serious conversation.  Not sure why I'm commenting on this, just an observation.  Time to move on I guess!

[mlehman]

BRAKIE

There are cheaper ways to enjoy the hobby without the need to refinance the farm every time a new model hits the street..One way is the use market and that market is booming.There is no shame buying a quality used locomotive at fraction of the price. But,in the end it amounts to a Jones/Smith thing and that habit is hard to break since many follows that pattern in every day life..

Amen to that, Brother Larry.

The interesting things about the hobby is that you're just buying parts. Yes, even that super-duper new GP40-2 with all the bells and whistles is simply a part of something bigger. Notwithstanding the folks who do simply buy them as a collectible or to superdetail, it's not until you place it in the context of something bigger, more magical, and that only you can construct does it really come to life.

It's what you do with all those parts that counts in this hobby. If you limit yourself to just buying the $250 part, expecting it to do something for you that a similar $50 part doesn't do, you're likely missing the point of the hobby anyway. Making things fit together to represent the real in a recognizable form is where it's at, not the total on any invoice.

Your point on the values found on the used market is especially important in this regard. There are few hobbies that sustain such a rich and often very affordable secondary market. Anyone with a little patience can usually find what they need, maybe needing to wait a few months and look around, and often at surprisingly reasonable cost.

Rich,

I hear you on the budget still not stretching far enough. But once the layout is past critical mass stage and you have the usual "hobby shop in miniature" it's possible to coast a long way without spending much at all. That's certainly been the case here the last few years and I'm still not to the bottom of the barrel with neat projects waiting on the shelves.

[BRAKIE]

mlehman

Gotta do what you can to afford the hobby. But if there's a fundamental mismatch between your resources and your desires in anything, it's not good. Your kids shouldn't be on a bread and milk diet so you can afford the latest set of Genesis F units, for instance. But if you're in constant anxiety over being able to afford a hobby, it's time to set down and evaluate how to more economically enjoy the hobby you have or downsize to a hobby you can afford. The world isn't going to change so you feel you can afford the hobby. You must adjust to the realities and budgets you have to work with.

Mike,You just mention the trap many needlessly falls into because they want to be the first guy at the club to own that Genesis GP40-2 with DCC/Sound even though they already have several Atlas GP40-2s.Why not add a sound decoder in the engines they already own?

There are cheaper ways to enjoy the hobby without the need to refinance the farm every time a new model hits the street..One way is the use market and that market is booming.There is no shame buying a quality used locomotive at fraction of the price.

But,in the end it amounts to a Jones/Smith thing and that habit is hard to break since many follows that pattern in every day life..

[richhotrain]

Bayfield Transfer Railway

 

Golf green fees can be $100 per single game, easily.

Only at a private club or someplace like Pebble Beach.

[richhotrain]

I am not saying that model railroading is the most expensive of hobbies.

Maybe it's just that many, if not most, hobbies are expensive.

But there are a lot less expensive hobbies, especially as it relates to start up costs.

Model railroading is, indeed, an expensive hobby.

I can afford it, but I feel the sting every time I make a purchase.

Rich

[mlehman]

When I was a kid, I built and flew rockets. I was always losing those darn things, because I built them to fly high -- it was the 60s Space Age, after all.

At least if I crash something on the layout, I can find most of the pieces...

Gotta do what you can to afford the hobby. But if there's a fundamental mismatch between your resources and your desires in anything, it's not good. Your kids shouldn't be on a bread and milk diet so you can afford the latest set of Genesis F units, for instance. But if you're in constant anxiety over being able to afford a hobby, it's time to set down and evaluate how to more economically enjoy the hobby you have or downsize to a hobby you can afford. The world isn't going to change so you feel you can afford the hobby. You must adjust to the realities and budgets you have to work with.

Having something priced 20% cheaper isn't going to change much when it comes to enjoying the hobby, either. If you're not finding enjoyment in what you're doing at the present with the present cost structure, aren't you only going to feel maybe 20% better about the money you're spending if it's just that increment cheaper? Because when you start seeing this hobby -- or any other -- through the dollar signs, there's other issues in life you probably need to settle first.

[Bayfield Transfer Railway]

richhotrain

I beg to differ.  Quality may be high, but prices definitely are not low.

 This is a very expensive hobby.

Rich

 

 

Golf green fees can be $100 per single game, easily.

Sailboats cost as much as a house.

 

A vintage WW2 aircraft can cost a million dollars or more, and cost several thousands of dollars per hour to fly.

 

This is a cheap hobby.

 

[mlehman]

richhotrain

This is a very expensive hobby.

Well, compared to chess, yes.

I should add that I think prices are generally "reasonable." Low is for when things are on sale or close-out.

[trwroute]

 

 

Bayfield Transfer Railway

Also, frankly, quality IS high, and prices ARE low.

 

 

 

 

I beg to differ.  Quality may be high, but prices definitely are not low.

 

This is a very expensive hobby.

Rich

 

[/quote]

Yep...right there with you on that.  

["JaBear"]

richhotrain

This is a very expensive hobby.

There must be an echo in this forum.

Cheers, the Bear. 

[richhotrain]

Bayfield Transfer Railway

Also, frankly, quality IS high, and prices ARE low.

 

I beg to differ.  Quality may be high, but prices definitely are not low.

This is a very expensive hobby.

Rich

[Bayfield Transfer Railway]

Also, frankly, quality IS high, and prices ARE low.

[Bayfield Transfer Railway]

mlehman

the belief that if somehow people seem to be complaining about it enough, that vendors will suddenly one day drop all pretense of obeying the basic laws of economics and cut their prices 25% across the board, with weekly half-off sales. Doubt it's gonna happen, but some folks are real believers in the squaeky wheel gets the grease theory. But put that small irritating noise up against the fact that most stuff sells out in a pretty short while and that tells you there's a large silent majority who don't have a major problem with pricing in the hobby.

 

 

And the gentleman pretty much summarizes the topic perfectly.  Well said.

I'm off to get a beer.  Last person out turn off the lights, s'il vous plait.

[Run Eight]

No you are not on a fantasy trip, by any means.

2nd to last paragraph.

WHY NOT!!!

[mlehman]

trwroute

iii) some people have all the sense of humor of a compound fracture I have a feeling that I may be one of those that this comment is directed.

Nah, could be me. My reply that things actually look a lot like high quality/low prices from my POV was about as humorless as those who think the whole idea is simply to mock a serious concern. But I can do a great Alfred E. Neumann impression, so am not sweating this. Personally, I'd be OK with MR creating a subforum, Price Whining, and confining such talk there for those who must.

Before the internet, when confronted with what they considered to be a "high" price, people would say, "Hey, I can make that!"

After the internet, it's so much easier to just log in and complain about the price.

And I am vastly oversimplifying things. But I gotta admit that all the concern about price would be better informed if it was more about value and realistic expectations. You couldn't buy it all this year if you were building a mega-layout from scratch, let alone build it. Stretch out those plans if the cost-curve is too steep. Consider alternatives. It's amazing how much changing prototype and adjusting expectations can do for one's budget in some cases. You can build a plastic RR on a brass budget, but not vice versa, so do some planning and forecasting there is nothing I've ever really needed in model railroading that I eventually could not afford if I planned for it.

But this is all about basic household budgetting. I see nothing specifically to do with model railroading in it. For me, all the talk about high prices is pretty much off-topic, because it's sure not about model railroading any more than saving up for that new patio set is.

But I'll also recognize it's a habit for some to beat this poor old horse into horseburger with the belief that if somehow people seem to be complaining about it enough, that vendors will suddenly one day drop all pretense of obeying the basic laws of economics and cut their prices 25% across the board, with weekly half-off sales. Doubt it's gonna happen, but some folks are real believers in the squaeky wheel gets the grease theory. But put that small irritating noise up against the fact that most stuff sells out in a pretty short while and that tells you there's a large silent majority who don't have a major problem with pricing in the hobby. I'm just guessing on that, but I know what I think and that's good enough for me. I'm going to get back to model railroading -- after some more of that w**k stuff.

[Burlington Northern #24]

csxns

 

 

Burlington Northern #24

You should switch to N.

 

 

Think i will start drinking.

 

 

Drink away. 

 

 

[zstripe]

Quote:

Posted by trwroute on Monday, May 19, 2014 10:32 AM

Wow...I never expected this kind of response!  As the op of this thread, I would like to thank everyone for keeping this thread argument free.  I do appreciate the different opinions as it makes for a lively conversation.

---

 

 

Chuck,

This pointless thread...Is it really that much different then the quote from the thread above?

Relax...It's just fun and some humor, nothing personal to anyone. Innocent fun for a change. No fires allowed. 

Take Care!

Frank

[csxns]

Burlington Northern #24

You should switch to N.

Think i will start drinking.

[BATMAN]

b60bp

Heck, I've even seen guys moan and grown about having to read threads on topics they can't stand reading about anymore, but they keep reading them.

 

[b60bp]

Bayfield Transfer Railway

So, this thread and the other one about prices have proveni) some people will bellyache about everythingii) some people don't believe in inflation because wharrgarbleiii) some people have all the sense of humor of a compound fracture

Some folks even whine about other people's compaining. Heck, I've even seen guys moan and grown about having to read threads on topics they can't stand reading about anymore, but they keep reading them. Now that's a valid gripe!

Benny

[trwroute]

Bayfield Transfer Railway

So, this thread and the other one about prices have proven

i) some people will bellyache about everything
ii) some people don't believe in inflation because wharrgarble
iii) some people have all the sense of humor of a compound fracture

 

 

I have a feeling that I may be one of those that this comment is directed. 

 

It's sad that someone posts a legitimate concern (high cost of the hobby) and that person becomes the butt of a joke.  Comments like this only add fuel to the fire.

 

I like this forum, but it sure seems like this topic gets everyone going.  Kind of like the old DCC-non DCC wars of years past.

 

[Burlington Northern #24]

You should switch to N. 

'Nuff said /thread 

[Bayfield Transfer Railway]

So, this thread and the other one about prices have proven

i) some people will bellyache about everything
ii) some people don't believe in inflation because wharrgarble
iii) some people have all the sense of humor of a compound fracture

[riogrande5761]

zstripe

Brent,

Will that be with...or without cheese?

Frank

BTW: I found this highly detailed passenger Train Free:

 

Now there is a train in a land that doesn't have US style Tort law!   Either that or narry a lawyer can be found!   

[IRONROOSTER]

zstripe

Brent,

Will that be with...or without cheese?

Frank

BTW: I found this highly detailed passenger Train Free:

 

Not to be overly critical, but someone missed a couple of spots there in the lower front.

 

 

 

Paul

[zstripe]

Rich,

Yeah on the Preiser. Very easy to paint, mostly White, some Beige, a little Blue and Black. I tried all kinds of sticky glues and the one I found that worked the best...was Strawberry Jam and if You believe that..I'll tell you another one.

Laughter is a lot easier and more healthful than grumpy and whin'y.

Have A Good One..All!

Frank

[richhotrain]

zstripe

BTW: I found this highly detailed passenger Train Free:

 

Frank, that is a helluva addition to your layout.  Are those figures from Preiser?

Rich

[Southgate]

This pointless thread...that I even stooped to participate in earlier, has given me a few chuckles and at least 2 good LMAOs. (both from pictures).  Ah, at last a fun vent, even for complainers to enjoy not having fun in.

Even my wife got a good laff at the highly detailed passenger train. Priceless.

Anyway, how 'bouts a few P2k Alco S-1s for 29 bucks. (Did indeed pay that from train world, shoulda bought a slug of 'em for motors-n-gears)

[BATMAN]

zstripe

 

 

You sure wouldn't want to have had that Starbucks Venti and Brand Muffins before starting that trip!

[BATMAN]

I guess they heard that the first ten customers get a highly detailed passenger car for free at Walthers annual clearance sale!

[zstripe]

Brent,

Will that be with...or without cheese?

Frank

BTW: I found this highly detailed passenger Train Free:

[BATMAN]

The only difference between a highly detailed $100.00 car, or the identical car at $0.00 (free) is, the $100.00 car will give us a better class of Whiner.

[tstage]

And easily installed keep-alive LED module in said highly-detailed passenger car: $5.

Tom

[richhotrain]

Awww nuts, now I feel the need to defend my thread.  I actually started it in mock seriousness to counter the constantly recurring threads on the high cost of the hobby.

As the title to this thread exclaims, just think if quality were high and prices were low.

So, back to the original point (!) of this thread, and this is something I yearn for, how about a highly detailed passenger car for $30?

Rich   

[tstage]

trwroute

Wow...just wow.  If there ever was a thread that needed to go away, this is it.

At least the threads that complain about prices have merit.  This thread is just dumb.

Chuck,

You'll soon discover that there are worse threads than this on the forum.  Just enjoying some levity.  Please feel free to press the tiny yellow triangle at the bottom left corner of this post if you feel we aren't complaining enough about the high prices of MRRing.

Tom

[trwroute]

Sorry guys.  I'm not sure what made me make a pointless post in a pointless thread.  My apologies!

Carry on!

[zstripe]

Quote:

Posted by Bayfield Transfer Railway on Monday, June 02, 2014 2:08 PM

*GASP* Somebody posted something silly on the Internet?

I'm shocked!  Shocked, I tell you!

---

 

You're shocked!? You ought to see the trouble I went through to get that stuff, in my back yard.

Frankie

[tstage]

richhotrain

trwroute

Wow...just wow.  If there ever was a thread that needed to go away, this is it.

At least the threads that complain about prices have merit.  This thread is just dumb.

GASP!

Chuck, what on earth would prompt you to say that?   

Rich

P.S. Tom, I believe that Chuck has missed the point of this thread.

I believe you are correct, Rich.  Course, we could again point out to Chuck the point(lessness) of this thread...but then again..that would be pointless to the point of the earlier pointless remark about the thread being pointless.  (Wow!  All this pointlessness makes for dull talk, huh? )

Tom

[Bayfield Transfer Railway]

*GASP* Somebody posted something silly on the Internet?

I'm shocked!  Shocked, I tell you!

 

[richhotrain]

trwroute

Wow...just wow.  If there ever was a thread that needed to go away, this is it.

At least the threads that complain about prices have merit.  This thread is just dumb.

 

GASP!

Chuck, what on earth would prompt you to say that?   

Rich

P.S. Tom, I believe that Chuck has missed the point of this thread.

[trwroute]

Wow...just wow.  If there ever was a thread that needed to go away, this is it.

At least the threads that complain about prices have merit.  This thread is just dumb.

["JaBear"]

The "Dearborn Duo".

"Geee Rich, the least you could do is smile."

"You can't smile when you're posing wearing a red hardhat and designer shades Frankie, it just doesn't look cool!!!"

[richhotrain]

Me and Frankie......................in his back yard.

[zstripe]

Forget the large spoon and the shovel. I know this would solve it:

 

 

Frankie

[richhotrain]

tstage

I'm afraid I do, Rich...or is it I don't?...

 

Either you do or you don't, don't you? 

[Bayfield Transfer Railway]

As my late grandfather used to say, "Wish in one hand, **** in the other, see which fills up first."

 

[tstage]

I'm afraid I do, Rich...or is it I don't?...

[richhotrain]

tstage

You're losing the point(lessness) of the thread, Vincent...

Tom

 

Thanks, Tom.

What's the point of being pointless if someone misses the point?  Get my point(less)?   

Rich

[tstage]

You're losing the point(lessness) of the thread, Vincent...

Tom

[Packer]

High quality and low prices aren't things that usually go together...

[Southgate]

Lest we forget vehicles... Lee town trucks, especially Mack  B series for around $10.00 per kit.

Easily available Sagami can motors, twin shaft, $15, Nwsl gear towers, 10.00

Real floquil paint, 2.00, Dio-sol, 8.00/pint

 

I gotta admit, I have hit a few bargains on eBay, but they are random, ya can't plan a project around them in advance.

And there ARE still some bargains to be had at todays MSRP... Tichy windows and details... Go to a plastics supplier for sheets of styrene, by the HO acre...   I still pay the same price now for dirt and sand from the 1/1 world for scenery as John Allen did in the '50s. And local plants for trees too.

 

 

[tstage]

oooOOOOooo...This is getting as many comments and hits as the Diner thread.

[richhotrain]

zstripe

Maybe this would be better, than a large spoon for Rich: 

 

 

Frankie

 

Bwahahaha !  

[richhotrain]

tomikawaTT

Rich, Why so much for Atlas flex.?  I have some bought for $0.75/stick.  

Yeah, Chuck, you're right.  I got so caught up with the concept of Atlas flex track actually being available that I forgot to focus on the price.

OK, Atlas flex track at 50 cents a stick.

Rich

[PM Railfan]

Freight cars for $10 or less (and not your RR's roadname plastered on some other's boxcar just to sell more cars - but an actual accurate model of the car you want!)

Passenger cars for $15 or less (same note as above)

DCC power systems at $50

Now more 5 year pre-orders, models are just made, period! Like Mickee-D's makes burgers.

Cars come with sound as an option for $5 extra bucks (think about it, a thirty car train - 5 of which have the 'flat wheel' sound option and a sound optioned loco pulling them. NOW your talking sound for model railroads! Better yet, make sound systems have external plugs so one can wire them into their home entertainment systems. No more wife and kids nagging.... slam the train room door shut and whistle up!   Ahhhhhhhhhh!)

More development in the computer control side of powering layouts and railroads. (DCC systems are systems with limited computing solutions. We all already have PC's, it seems much more logical to develop software and a simple interface (along with handhelds) that will operate your railroad. With roster/inventory, timetable, accessory lighting, siwtching, and operations interactibility built in too. I know MRC has a small version of this but its hardly promoted even by MRC themselves, and is only for DCC control. No other functions.)

 

A company that makes white ink for inkjets @ $10 a cartridge. (because silk screening decals isnt fun to me. Sounds like a one of those crowd-funding ideas.)

 

 

 

[tstage]

rrebell

How about a Proto 2000 0-8-0 for $60...

Both of my 2nd run Proto 2000 0-8-0s were bought off eBay a few years back for $90 (NYC) and $80 (Erie) each.  While no sound they have been superb runners.

So, yes - reality is closer than you think.

Tom

[zstripe]

Maybe this would be better, than a large spoon for Rich: 

 

 

Frankie

[mlehman]

Rich wrote:

Can you imagine high quality at a low price?

I say...

Isn't that what we call reality?

I understand that position upsets some folks who think we're all deficient in our daily intake of doom and gloom. However, I see a lot more value for my money in most of what I buy than I did 40 years ago. Sure it takes more dollars, but between inflation and the value of the time avoided in construction with many of them makes things a lot easier, adding value in my eyes that just wasn't there before.

After all, it could cost more. Generally, stuff is available with a little research for around 20% off. What if MSRP were the law of the land? Yep, 20% off sounds low to me, enough to send me BUY signals...when I actually have any of that cash stuff....

What I am able to afford is generally of excellent quality and mfgs tend to stand behind their product. I'm sure there are bad experiences out there, too, but overall there have been vast improvement in both the quality of  models and their production as consumer goods.

[tomikawaTT]

Rich, Why so much for Atlas flex.?  I have some bought for $0.75/stick.  Granted, it's code 100 brass rail stapled to fiber tie strip...

And $10.00 for a quality turnout?  My plain-jane #5s cost me about $6.20 in materials and tool time.

Ken, what I would like to hear is a loco (or tender) mounted speaker that could accurately (tone and volume) reproduce the cannonade of a Y6b in simple mode pushing a N&W coal drag up the Blue Ridge grade.  Not holding my breath...

Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964 - with hand-laid specialwork)

[rrebell]

richhotrain

I get so tired of reading about how expensive is the hobby.

Can you imagine high quality at a low price?

I am on a fantasy trip this morning.

$100 for a highly detailed, fine running diesel or steamer with sound.

$10 for a nice turnout.

$20 for a real nice Walthers Cornerstone structure.

Atlas flex track, readily available in quantity, $2 a stick.

Oh, and it's all made in the good old USA.

Care to add to this short list?

Rich

 

How about a Proto 2000 0-8-0 for $60, Shinohara turnouts at $5, arround $20 for a Cornerstone kit I needed, Shinohara flex a $2.63 a stick. These are just some of my e-bay purchasers in the last two years. But alas they are all made elsewhere!

[CSX_road_slug]

Loco-mounted speakers that can duplicate the deep, earth-shaking rumble of turbocharged EMD prime movers.

[MisterBeasley]

A Bachmann GG-1 with sound for $160, free shipping.

A Bachmann steamer, nicely detailed with sound for $130 at my LHS.

Tichy kits for $8.

 

Oh, wait, you were talking about fantasy?  Never mind.

[tstage]

Undecorated locomotives ($80) with custom painting and detailing at no extra charge.  Just tell the manufacturer what road name and paint scheme you want when you purchase your locomotive from them.

Tom

[BRAKIE]

A Hobbytown RS3 body kit at $5.00 and a updated drive kit for $10.00.

I would love to build one again---if I remember how.

[joe27]

mobilman44

 

 

- Chicago Italian beef sandwiches w/peppers for $0.45 each

Now your talking!

Joe

 

["JaBear"]

Athearn BB freight car kits, 10 for a dollar including free freight to the Antipodes.

1 Fuji War Bond = US$ 1000.

And a large spoon for Rich.

[mobilman44]

Oh yeah............

- durable quality kits at 1970s Athearn prices

- decoders - one size fits all - at $10 per

- DCC expandable starter sets at $100

- 5 ply 4x8 sheets of A/B plywood at $10 per - delivered

- Chicago Italian beef sandwiches w/peppers for $0.45 each