Is it just me? Or others think the same way? The layouts in July MRR are beautiful. The photos show really awesome works of modeling. Whether it's the hand laid Code 70 rail on sanded sticks from the yard, or the beautiful downtown and golden hills, or the original ideas on the plexiglass sub roadbed.
But, I did not quite get the operating plan for the layouts. On the first one, the interchange could be reversed for better operation. On the second, there could be a run around at Valley Junction and Lake View. Perhaps a town at Lake View and an industry at the big round would add to the operational interest. Both designers used industry tracks that have switchbacks.
Maybe it's just me. Maybe there is something I don't understand, and I think different people prioritize differently. It's their road!!
They are pretty good looking though!
NP.
Edit: Added "spoiler alert" ... thank you for suggesting
NP01Maybe it's just me. Maybe there is something I don't understand, and I think different people prioritize differently. It's their road!!
No its not you..I still see old school track planing that's been around since the days of Moses.
I don't see that style of planing changing any time soon since the "expert" layout designers still follow the old school teachings.
Your observations of the plans is quite correct.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
Spoiler alert! I haven't got my issue yet.
Unfortunately most small plans are NOT designed for OPERATIONS but for those that want to have a Model Layout and just watch trains run!
Even if the Layouts are of the Garage size - TOO many find out too late that there IS MORE to Model Railroading than just watching the train make endless circles!
And when they do - they find the layout can NOT be Operated smoothly or even at all!
Fustration sits in and the Layout either becomes disused or torn down - never to be rebuilt as the Layout Owner is too unhappy in seeing all of his great work being trashed to make the Layout OPERATIOAL!
While I know there are a number on here and other Forums that state they have no interest in OPERATIONS - Which is fine!!
I know of TOO Many that were and the Layouts are no more as they left the hobby as they found out too late!
Look at ALL aspects of the Hobby not just one area should be considered when beginning Model Railroading but they are in too much of a hurry to make the trains RUN!
This is unfortunate as the ones I personally knew HAD really fine looking layouts that are no more and have left the Hobby due the Operations thing and now we are missing out on their fine Modeling Skills too!
BOB H - Clarion, PA
cmrproductsThis is unfortunate as the ones I personally knew HAD really fine looking layouts that are no more and have left the Hobby due the Operations thing and now we are missing out on their fine Modeling Skills too! BOB
I've know several that has departed the hobby and some was stellar modeler.
They all had one thing in common in their layouts--all was a dumped bowl of spaghetti that was hopeless to operate other then running endless loops.
One can have a operating small layout if they will forge ahead to the more modern layout planing and forget the plans in layout books and poor advice from "layout design experts" that is still pushing the old school methods of layout designing.I suspect many fail to realized a 1'x10' ISL can be operated prototypically as can a 36" x 80" hollow core door N Scale layout..
At every ISL design clinic I have attended you will without fail have one attendee to mention John Allen's "Time Saver" design ( a one time design switching puzzle for a NMRA meet) at a serious ISL design clinic..
NP01 and an industry at the big round would add to the operational interest.
and an industry at the big round would add to the operational interest.
Model Rairoading is a multidimensional hobby. While operation can be very rewarding, it is not a top priority or even desired by everyone. Some people like to "railfan" on their model railroads, Some model railroaders like to build models (rail equipment or buildings or scenic dioramas) and don't care if they ever run a train. There are even some who enjoy building benchwork, others wiring layouts or electronics. Still others like to design layouts, and never get around to building one..
The "big round" is an excellent representation of an actual location. Placing an industry there would destroy the effect. The builder of the layout achieved his goal.
I tried to sell my two cents worth, but no one would give me a plug nickel for it.
I don't have a leg to stand on.
Too many operational types leave also because they can't just run trains. On my layout, I tried to have both worlds, started with a large dogbone but I have many operational areas too.
www.deadwoodcityrailroad.blogspot.com
I have to agree with those who say, "Different strokes for different folks." Not everyone has operations as his top priority. Not to invalidate anything previously said, but there are plenty of folks who want to kick back with a beer and wathc the trains run. For myself, I like the option to do both, and my layoit reflects that.
I peronally found the use of space and especially the detailing to be very good. Plus, it was obvious that the owners had great pride in their efforts.
Connecticut Valley Railroad A Branch of the New York, New Haven, and Hartford
"If you think you can do a thing or think you can't do a thing, you're right." -- Henry Ford
rrebell Too many operational types leave also because they can't just run trains. On my layout, I tried to have both worlds, started with a large dogbone but I have many operational areas too.
Serious operators doesn't want to run trains between op sessions unless necessary like returning loaded hoppers to the mines and empties to the power plant.
Unlike loopy loop layouts these layouts was built for operation not casual running.
The layout comes to life when your operating crew shows up and operates in a prototypical manner.
That's the payday.
Modelling HO Scale with a focus on the West and Midwest USA
alexstanOr then again there are people like me who build small layouts more like dioramas.
Or guys like me that build small ISLs simply because we love switching industries.
Even if you don't think of yourself as an operator, it seems that the track arrangement ought to look like you COULD operate on it. If the track arrangement looks impractical, believability is compromised. The prototype generally tries to avoid track arrangements that are inefficient, and so should we, IMO.
BRAKIESerious operators doesn't want to run trains between op sessions unless necessary like returning loaded hoppers to the mines and empties to the power plant. Unlike loopy loop layouts these layouts was built for operation not casual running. The layout comes to life when your operating crew shows up and operates in a prototypical manner.
I guess that makes me a "Frivilous" operator, since I run trains when I feel like it, and don't normally do the operating session thing. I took an old John Armstrong two track loop, and made it into an "operatable" layout, then built a yard on to it so that I could "prototypically" classify and make up trains, then send the local out to drill the customer sidings, and return with the outbounds. Which is what in essence I did for a living for 42 years. There are seven industries on the main, and two more within the yard. There is also a nusiance passenger train just to make things interesting. I can spend a couple of hours just with the local. Then there are times, when I just want to relax and watch the train go over the crossover, and follow the continuous run loop. Especially nice when I don't feel like pretending I'm still at work.
It really is a personal preference
Joe (Lone Wolf)
I have to disagree with the OPs comments on the designs. I think that it's obvious that Frank Henry Fieler is a "modeler" first and a "railroader" second - which is his right. His layout still operates and I imagine the C&O comes from staging and exits through the yard. Had his interchange with the C&O been reversed, the lead to the interchange would have been by way of the uphill branch to the woods.
On Hans Wolfram Nicolaus's layout, I suspect that Valley Junction and Lakeview are more like visible staging than operating points. Run arounds wouldn't be as important, and may exist anyway - just not drawn on the plan. As others pointed out, putting an industry in the turn back loop would have ruined the scenic intent.
As for industries on switchbacks, I would agree to a point that it shouldn't be overdone, but I don't think either modeler did. Look at the Progressive Rail Industrial Park plan on page 18. Switchbacks and no run arounds. Shame on the civil engineer that laid that one out! JK, and I'm a civil engineer who has designed some industrial spurs. Most recently a sulfuric acid transloading facility in northern Nevada with UP - rail to tanks to trucks - would make a great model.
Regards, Ray
wojosa31 BRAKIE Serious operators doesn't want to run trains between op sessions unless necessary like returning loaded hoppers to the mines and empties to the power plant. Unlike loopy loop layouts these layouts was built for operation not casual running. The layout comes to life when your operating crew shows up and operates in a prototypical manner. I guess that makes me a "Frivilous" operator, since I run trains when I feel like it, and don't normally do the operating session thing. I took an old John Armstrong two track loop, and made it into an "operatable" layout, then built a yard on to it so that I could "prototypically" classify and make up trains, then send the local out to drill the customer sidings, and return with the outbounds. Which is what in essence I did for a living for 42 years. There are seven industries on the main, and two more within the yard. There is also a nusiance passenger train just to make things interesting. I can spend a couple of hours just with the local. Then there are times, when I just want to relax and watch the train go over the crossover, and follow the continuous run loop. Especially nice when I don't feel like pretending I'm still at work. It really is a personal preference Joe (Lone Wolf)
BRAKIE Serious operators doesn't want to run trains between op sessions unless necessary like returning loaded hoppers to the mines and empties to the power plant. Unlike loopy loop layouts these layouts was built for operation not casual running. The layout comes to life when your operating crew shows up and operates in a prototypical manner.
Joe,You sound like your having fun and that's the way I usually operated my few loop layouts.
By "serious operators" I was talking about those that design layouts strictly for operation with their operation group which is usually made up of their closest friends and these operation session may rotate between layouts..
I'm sure you have heard of these groups or even read of these types of operators in the pages of MR.
ACY Even if you don't think of yourself as an operator, it seems that the track arrangement ought to look like you COULD operate on it. If the track arrangement looks impractical, believability is compromised. The prototype generally tries to avoid track arrangements that are inefficient, and so should we, IMO.
Agreed!
+1
cmrproductsUnfortunately most small plans are NOT designed for OPERATIONS but for those that want to have a Model Layout and just watch trains run! Even if the Layouts are of the Garage size - TOO many find out too late that there IS MORE to Model Railroading than just watching the train make endless circles! And when they do - they find the layout can NOT be Operated smoothly or even at all! Fustration sits in and the Layout either becomes disused or torn down - never to be rebuilt as the Layout Owner is too unhappy in seeing all of his great work being trashed to make the Layout OPERATIOAL! While I know there are a number on here and other Forums that state they have no interest in OPERATIONS - Which is fine!! I know of TOO Many that were and the Layouts are no more as they left the hobby as they found out too late! Look at ALL aspects of the Hobby not just one area should be considered when beginning Model Railroading but they are in too much of a hurry to make the trains RUN! This is unfortunate as the ones I personally knew HAD really fine looking layouts that are no more and have left the Hobby due the Operations thing and now we are missing out on their fine Modeling Skills too! BOB H - Clarion, PA
I have a small switching layout, which is U-shaped, point-to-point (along the walls), and, it is "operational". It is only about 20 linear feet long and is designed for interchange/switching operations; it even has staging. The point is, there are small layouts that are operational and are not just for running trains. In my case, because of space limitations, I do not have the luxury of having any kind of continuous running (which I would prefer, along with operations), so, as they say, where there is a will, there is a way. I wanted to have SOME kind of layout, with the space I have available, so I opted to build something within that space that would lend itself to some kind of operations. Some day when I get into bigger quarters, I can build a layout that will have most, if not all of the features that I desire.
Tom
I never ment to imply that one could not Operate on a SMALL Layout! I have run on a number of small alyouts and just as much fun (ifnotmore) than I have on many larger Operational Layouts!
It is that some - actually most on the Forums think that Operations is some how a bad thing when we that are Obsessed (which is too tame of a word) with Operations!
Most here when the word Operations is stated have the mind set that it is a form of a Question (OPERATIONS?) - WHY do we have to do THAT?.
And others like myself and about 100 or so of our I-80 OPs Group - look at Operations as a statement (OPERATIONS !).
Meaning WHERE and WHEN are we going!
I get the feeling that most would think that if one would drive for 3 hours - attend a REAL Operations session with 20 other Operators for 4 hours - and then drive back home another 3 hours are nuts!
NO! - That is the difference between Operations? - and OPERATIONS!
It is like going 4 wheeling - ONLY In a JEEP - If you have to ask - YOU Don't Understand! - as the saying goes!
Or riding Motorcycles - If you are NOT on a Harley - WHY GO?
It is a state of mind thing. Once you Understand OPERATIONS! then one can see why we tend to be so passionat about it.
Until then most will try and explain it away by stating there are other thins to Model Railroading other than operations.
What we Operators find is that the OTHER stuff is just something that needs to be done to get to the OPERATIONS!
cmrproductsWhat we Operators find is that the OTHER stuff is just something that needs to be done to get to the OPERATIONS! BOB H
Exactly..I really hate the other parts of the hobby like laying track,ballasting and scenery but,those are just steps getting from point A to the big "O" (operation) we need to take.
Now my personal thoughts is why did I even bother to build a layout,buy the needed models and other things if I was only going to rip it up and rebuild only to rip it out again and rebuild some more? I realize we been taught through the pages of MR and RMC that a layout is never finish--of course not..Such false(false only because a layout can be finished) statements keeps the advertisers happy.
BRAKIE cmrproducts What we Operators find is that the OTHER stuff is just something that needs to be done to get to the OPERATIONS! BOB H Exactly..I really hate the other parts of the hobby like laying track,ballasting and scenery but,those are just steps getting from point A to the big "O" (operation) we need to take.
cmrproducts What we Operators find is that the OTHER stuff is just something that needs to be done to get to the OPERATIONS! BOB H
Exactly !
My layout ran for years with little scenery and GUESS What? It ran just fine!
I have been holding OPERATIONS ! Sessions every 2 weeks since 2002.
As for tearing up the layout - YEP! - I have done that - BUT!
With 2500 sq ft -
I can tear a lot up and we could still keep running! ;-)
OH! BTW !
Don't forget to put the exclimation point after the word OPERATIONS!
If we have no exclimation Point then the word OPERATIONS needs a ? after it to denote everyone else!
We don't want to get it mixed up with the others that think that a Model Railroad is just for Scenery and Round Round! ;-)
- Douglas
BRAKIE At every ISL design clinic I have attended you will without fail have one attendee to mention John Allen's "Time Saver" design ( a one time design switching puzzle for a NMRA meet) at a serious ISL design clinic..
Dang it! I was looking at that plan this morning and was wondering how I could build an addition onto it to fit my slightly larger space.
I do know that after having an around the walls layout, I want to return to more of a roundy-round. I am one that likes to watch them run, but I also like a little switching. More fun for this lone-wolf!
I guess I'm just old school ...
Chuck - Modeling in HO scale and anything narrow gauge
Here's a serious question for the serious operators. If things like model building and scenary is so unneccessary, and even track laying is a chore, why build a layout at all? I mean think about it. With current computer technology you can simulate any railroad in the world. By networking with other operators you could run visually realistic on the monitor, with someone acting as dispatcher just like they do on the prototype. A massively online railroad game.
As for me, while I enjoy operations, I get most enjoyment from structure building. So my layout designs somewhat reflect that. Which I think is a critical point when it comes to why so many small layouts are not "proper." They are an exercise in compromise between scenary, structures, operations, and spousal room limits. And to be honest, I think too much attention to the prototype is heavily limiting. If I built my hometown for example, it would be operationally boring, yet at the same time there are many who would tell me the track layout is not realistic.
jim
My personal situation is that while I like operations and the realism a layout conveys, I like to be able to also sit back and watch them run. I changed my former point to point layout into a dogbone plan, by adding a turnback loop at each end, just to be able to watch a train run continuously. Having done that, the tight turnback loops spoil the realistic appearence of the scene.
There is not much to do about it other than compromise. I sceniced one loop as an abandoned spur heading in between two buildings, and the other loop serves as a load-out balloon track for an aggregate yard. The long stretch of benchwork where two tracks run near parallel to each other was arranged and sceniced in such a way as to make one track look like a class I mainline, and the other look like a class III short line, a little more curvy, instead of just having two tracks of the same nature running parallel to each other.
I think the OP was saying that with some minor modifications to the plans, the operators could be more satisfied.
I would say that making a layout operate more realistically will probably also make it look more realistic, and thereby make it look better overall; which would enhance the enjoyment of watching the trains run. JMO.
Jim
Obviously you are NOT of the type that really enjoy OPERATIONS!
While we may state that we don't enjoy the building and Scenery - most do just not as much as OPERATIONS!
Those that state they like building Doramas and Scenery are just as much a Modeler as any of us OPERATIONS! types but we enjoy being with a group and putting the Layout (whether our own or someone elses Layout) thru its paces and seeing it come to life - so to speak!
Others enjoy being by themselves and that is there problem!
I want to be part of a team of Operators that make the Model Railroad emulate the Real thing in as far as the Layout Owner has decided to go!
While it can NEVER be the real thing - it is as cloas as I or others can get without going to work for one!
In our I-80 OPs Group we have many types!
Some that feel OPERATIONS! is as WHERE & WHEN Do we Go!
Others are just happy to run on a layout once in a while - while building their own Layout for OPERATIONS!
Still Others do not have a Layout at all - but really enjoy the friendship of the Group and enjoy the 3D Game of OPERATIONS!
And there are Still Others that could care less if they attend an OPs Session or not! And these types are the OPERATIONS? (in which their response is WHY? do I have to do operations).
This Last bunch are the ones that drift in and out of the Hobby and the ones that seem to have the most to say about why the others like us, that OPERATIONS! is the most improtant thing in Model railroading, shouldn't think this way!
It seems too many should be working on their Layouts or actually build one instead of being on the many other Forums giving advice when they don't even have a layout or never will!
But then it take all types to make the World - doesn't it! ;-)
Sorry, but I can´t help it - I have to add my to it.
Each one of us has a different reason for being in this hobby. We have builders, collectors, operators, rail fans - there is room for just any craze one can think of in this hobby. It is as colorful as mankind, and I am thankful for it. It´s the icing on top of the cake, the spice in the soup or the mustard on the hot dog.
There is one thing I find rather detrimental to our hobby - it´s the "us vs. them" attitude which is often displayed. Intolerance never has led to anywhere positive. Whenever I read the phrase "serious operator" or serious model railroader, it´s the attempt to look down on people, who may not have the skills or the knowledge those persons have. Again, that does not lead anywhere other than fruitless segregation.
Anyhow, how can someone be a serious operator without getting up very early in the morning, when the rest of the world is still asleep, just to run the morning milk train?
Ulrich,There are serious operators that is far above my modest approach.They may use time tables and train orders to train movement govern by CTC and dispatcher.
IMHO the only "us vs. them" is a mind set since many is turned off by the simplest operation plan or as some puts it-operation is to much like work yet,they have no real clue on how relaxing simple operation can be.
As far as a milk train those runs was usually held down by employees with lots of seniority.
I suppose that having a 12 hour long OPERATIONS! Session would then be considered Crazy?
I have hosted 7 of them so far on my Layout and #8 is in the planning stages!
When I put out the e-mail for one of these OPTUDs (OP Till U Drop) I get over 100 replies from some as 3 hours drive times away!
And the Ages range from 7 & 10 years olds to those in their 80s
Unfortunately I can only handle 25 Operators at one time !
So I break up the Session into 3 - 4 Hour long groups.
Way too many want to stay and run all 12 hours!
So there must be more than a few of us that like OPERATIONS! - over the other parts of the layout building process! ;-)
Bob,
I tend to enjoy multiple aspects of the hobby, operations included, though perhaps the little three car trains my layout will support don't amount to much in contrast to serious operators. And I've tried to include ops thoughts in every layout I've built over the years from the time I first read Chubb's "Brakeman on the Yellow Extra" in MR years ago. But it hasn't been my sole goal, and the limitations of time, money, and space often create compromises that seem to annoy serious operators. But if I may, and in hopes that we can all come to the same side, I'd like to point out some things that create the impression of "non operators not welcome here."
cmrproducts Others enjoy being by themselves and that is there problem! This Last bunch are the ones that drift in and out of the Hobby and the ones that seem to have the most to say about why the others like us, that OPERATIONS! is the most improtant thing in Model railroading, shouldn't think this way! It seems too many should be working on their Layouts or actually build one instead of being on the many other Forums giving advice when they don't even have a layout or never will!
First I'd like to address these quotes if I may. The first statement pretty much says who doesn't go into group operations has a problem. Why would you assume that others have a "problem" just because they get their entertainment differently.
Then you seem to assume that anyone who is not a serious operator isn't in the hobby for long. I don't know, been modeling railroading since 1972.
Next you state that non operators don't build layouts and shouldn't be on the forums. I thought we all had something to contribute, including those who research and provide creative thoughts.
In this one post, you use the term "OPERATIONS", in all caps, eight times. In internet etiquite, that is considered screaming. If you scream at people that often they will either fight back or just leave and not come back.
I'm not trying to push an argument here, but hoping we can all understand that we have a common hobby - model railroading and that hobby needs us all working together to promote it rather than fragmenting into the more than thou factions.