Looking for help here. Just started testing my layout and am having trouble with my engines all (BLI deisels) derailing through the Peco code 83 turnouts. all other rolling stock does fine.Does anyone havve this problem? Any suggestions as to what I should try? Enginges derail as they reach the frog. This is happening on three different turnouts.
Wheels in gauge? Some turnouts are more forgiving than others.
Dave
Just be glad you don't have to press "2" for English.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQ_ALEdDUB8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6hqFS1GZL4s
http://s73.photobucket.com/user/steemtrayn/media/MovingcoalontheDCM.mp4.html?sort=3&o=27
What's the frog # of the turnouts?
Are the diesels 4 axle or 6 axle (3 axles per truck)? 6 axles and sharp, low numbered, frogs may be a problem.
Is the turnout laid flatly? If laid with even a slight twist or bow to it, it can cause problems.
- Douglas
Six axle diesels, even long ones, should have no trouble through a #5 or higher. If they are derailing at the frog, it is often the case that what is happening behind that truck, way back down the frame, is where the real problem lies. I found this out a number of times. If the rear part of the frame is rolling or dipping, it may have the effect of rotating the frame too much forward and lifting one or more axles just enough on the leading truck that the flanges don't make contact with the inner face of the rail head.
I have many Code 83 Pecos, the #6 Insulfrog variety. They all work 100% reliably. If the frog flangeways are clear, if the guards are in spec according to the NMRA gauge, and the turnout itself is flat with reasonably tangential approaches/exits all meeting it at grade, I couldn't imagine that it's anything else but the locomotive. But, if the turnout isn't properly suspended/supported along its entire length, both rails at the same height across from each other throughout, if the frog isn't high centered due to uneven support below it, or too low, or if the approaches in all three cases are highly curved, you can expect lots of headaches.
-Crandell
I' have experienced a problem with a couple of Peco turnouts causing derailments. The problem with mine were the guard rails being a little to tight entering the turnout. I used the blade of a small screw driver slipping it between the rail and the guard rail and giving it a slight twist to open the gap a bit.
Worked for me but I realize there are many other possibilties.
Just my worth.
Bob
Don't Ever Give Up
You do have an NMRA gauge don't you? No track should be put into service until you have thoroughly checked it and no equipment should go onto the layout without being checked.
My experience with PECO code 100 switches has been an occasional wide flangeway between the running rail and guard rail right across from the frog. This will allow flanges to pick the point of the frog and climb up on top of it. If this is your problem the easy fix is to glue a little strip of styrene to the inside of the guard rail. A piece .005 or .010 thick works for me. You can shave it down a little if need be once the glue sets.
Be happy in your work,
Charlie
Just adding to what charlie said, Checking with an NMRA gauge is a must. I hand lay all my turnouts, in code 70 and 55. When there has been a problem the gauge always reveals it. I'm running 6 axle diesels and even a couple 2-10-2s through #4 switches. The diesels handle it fine. The steamers struggle, but make it. (gonna replace those #4s) But I'd never be without that guage, both for trackwork and checking all engines and rolling stock. Dan
It would help greatly to know if the Peco turnouts are Insulfrogs or Electrofrogs and the number of each turnout.
It would also help to know what type of diesels, particularly the number of axles.
Rich
Alton Junction
I'm thinking vertical or horizontal kinks in the trackwork. Take a look at the ends of the turnout where the rail joiners are. Do the approaching tracks meet the turnout tangentially, either straight-on or with a smooth, uninterrupted curve? Or is there a sharp transition, even only a degree or two of angle, at that point?
Similarly, take a metal straightedge and place the edge along the turnout. How well do the approaching tracks match up vertically? Again, only a couple of degrees of angle here will cause problems. In this case, the locomotive will stay with the angle of the approaching track until its halfway over the joint, and then tip to the angle of the turnout. That's the point where it will derail.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
Also, we are always quick to blame the turnout, because that's where the engine appears to jump the track and short. However, I've had situations where an engine actually was hitting some bad trackwork several feet before the turnout. It was able to "hold it together," even though the lead truck was riding high on the railhead, but when it got to the turnout it would come off the rest of the way. Watch closely and see where the engine is first leaving the rails. You may be surprised.
charlie9You do have an NMRA gauge don't you? No track should be put into service until you have thoroughly checked it and no equipment should go onto the layout without being checked.
Great words of wisdom there..
IF only everybody would follow that simple step they could easily obtain derailment free operation.
Since the cars are going though the switch without issues then I highly suspect the problem is the truck or out of gauge wheels.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
Popbagz,
To The Forums.
If You don't have one already, get one and test engines and rolling stock. All answers, are speculation, without knowing for sure:
NMRA gauge is critical on flex track and hand laid turnouts.
But a commercial turnout? Not likely.
Quote:
I totally disagree with You! I have had commercially made turnouts, with tight guard rails and tight points from the factory. Also points having too blunt of an edge. The older Shinohara turnouts, were notorious for tight guard rails and points. They were all soldered when they were made.
Frank
richhotrain NMRA gauge is critical on flex track and hand laid turnouts. But a commercial turnout? Not likely. Rich
Sorry,Rich,I gotta agree with Frank..Some of the commerical switches needs TLC before they are place in service.
I've been lucky all of my C100 Peco switches was spot on the gauge when checked.
Gotta side with Frank on this one too. Commercial turnouts are frequently out of gauge and/or have other problems that require tune-up.
Rob Spangler
Well, guys, I gotta disagree with all 3 of you.
Over time, I have had nearly 100 turnouts, Code 83 and Code 100, #4 and #6, Atlas and Peco.
Never had one out of gauge.
Sure, even commercial turnouts may have problems with points, guard rails, etc., but not out of gauge.
MisterBeasley Also, we are always quick to blame the turnout, because that's where the engine appears to jump the track and short. However, I've had situations where an engine actually was hitting some bad trackwork several feet before the turnout. It was able to "hold it together," even though the lead truck was riding high on the railhead, but when it got to the turnout it would come off the rest of the way. Watch closely and see where the engine is first leaving the rails. You may be surprised.
I'm going to go with Mr B's 2 replies. Chances are the turnout is not out of gauge but the track leading to the switch would cause the problems. It's common sense to know that the engine is following the path of the preceeding rails and when it enters the switch, it can't handle the sudden change in direction.
Joe C
dominic c I'm going to go with Mr B's 2 replies. Chances are the turnout is not out of guage but the track leading to the switch would cause the problems. It's common sense to know that the engine is following the path of the preceeding rails and when it enters the switch, it can't handle the sudden change in direction. Joe C
I'm going to go with Mr B's 2 replies. Chances are the turnout is not out of guage but the track leading to the switch would cause the problems. It's common sense to know that the engine is following the path of the preceeding rails and when it enters the switch, it can't handle the sudden change in direction.
Yeah, Joe, I have had that same experience.
Rich,
I would like to know, where I said that the turnouts were out of gauge?
When you lay flex track, it is also advisable to use a three point track gauge when you lay it, not a standards gauge.
Respectfully!
richhotrainSure, even commercial turnouts may have problems with points, guard rails, etc., but not out of gauge. Rich
That's why you use the NMRA gauge to check the switch for problems..I won't even consider laying a switch without checking it first.
I suppose that's one reason I have derailment free operation.
zstripe Rich, I would like to know, where I said that the turnouts were out of gauge?
Frank, you didn't say it anywhere, and I didn't say that you said it. Rob said it.
BRAKIE richhotrain Sure, even commercial turnouts may have problems with points, guard rails, etc., but not out of gauge. Rich That's why you use the NMRA gauge to check the switch for problems..I won't even consider laying a switch without checking it first. I suppose that's one reason I have derailment free operation.
richhotrain Sure, even commercial turnouts may have problems with points, guard rails, etc., but not out of gauge. Rich
I have no argument against an NMRA gauge. I have one myself.
My disagreement is with the assertion that commercial turnouts are often out of gauge.
May I add to the confusion............ I would like to see the trackwork going into the turnout. Perhaps there is an S curve or (as mentioned earlier) a vertical/horizontal kink.
And then there is the loco itself..... low hanging coupler, binding trucks, etc.
Lastly, my personal favorite, a couple pieces of ballast concealed between the rail and guardrail...........
Other than the above, something is kafloowey with the turnout..............
ENJOY !
Mobilman44
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central
zstripe
What does that diagram have to do with the OP's problem?
BTW, where is the OP?
Returning to the OP's problem, all of his engines (all BLI diesels) derail through all of his Peco Code 83 turnouts.
He doesn't mention whether he has other turnouts in addition to the three Peco turnouts.
We need to hear more from the OP.
richhotrainWe need to hear more from the OP. Rich
That we do and a photo would help.
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I'm not overly concern with a S curve-unless they are made out of 15" radius curves laid back to back..Nor am I concerned with the switch coming off a curve.
The more I think on this my shot in the dark would be a binding truck on the locomotive or a possible kink before the switch.
BRAKIE The more I think on this my shot in the dark would be a binding truck on the locomotive or a possible kink before the switch.
It could be, but if one goes back and read the OP's initial post, all of his engines derail on all of his Peco turnouts.
While that statement leaves open any number of possibilities, statistically, that would seem to rule out the locos and the turnouts because it is hard to believe that all of the turnouts are faulty and/or all of the loco trucks are faulty.
More likely, he has general problems with his track work.
richhotrain ...if one goes back and read the OP's initial post, all of his engines derail on all of his Peco turnouts. While that statement leaves open any number of possibilities, statistically, that would seem to rule out the locos and the turnouts because it is hard to believe that all of the turnouts are faulty and/or all of the loco trucks are faulty. More likely, he has general problems with his track work. Rich
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