LensCapOn As a modeler who has moved from HO to N, after reading this thread I believe this speaks for all N modelers. Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr! (and Sob!)
As a modeler who has moved from HO to N, after reading this thread I believe this speaks for all N modelers.
Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr! (and Sob!)
Ken G Price My N-Scale Layout
Digitrax Super Empire Builder Radio System. South Valley Texas Railroad. SVTRR
N-Scale out west. 1996-1998 or so! UP, SP, Missouri Pacific, C&NW.
maxman ATLANTIC CENTRAL The question is how does the public express to them this "demand"? Has a manufacturer ever asked you what models you would like to see made? Or, do the manufacturers simply say, "we think Big Boys will be popular, so lets make some", or, "the other guy made Big Boys and he did not go broke, maybe we should make some?". If they sell, they make more. So there may well be a long list of stuff that would sell, that no one has made...... How the public expresses the demand is a good question, and I have not seen an answer to this here, yet. No, no one has asked me personally what I'd like to see made. And I'm not certain that this would even be a worthwhile task. I envision that for every 100 people surveyed there would almost be that many different answers. One of the now extinct model railroad publications used to have a rolling stock survey where people were asked which type model, tank car for example, they'd like to see and periodically those models would be manufactured. In the case of the Big Boys, I don't know the logic of that manufacturing decision. I certainly don't want one. However, it seems that there are several vendors of them, and that there are multiple runs. And I don't think the produced models are languishing on the dealers shelves. So until that happens I think that some manufacturers will continue to produce them. Concerning the long list of potential models, for example the Pacifics/mikes/consolidations/ten wheelers you would buy, well that's nice, but how many are you going to buy? You may buy two or three, but who is going to buy the other 997 from the lot of 1000 that is produced? And with steam engines the problem I see is that there are too many variations to come up with any standard model that would satisfy the masses. In the case of the Pacific there is the USRA light Pacific, the USRA heavy Pacific, plus whatever number of different prototype railroad Pacifics that might be out there. And obviously a generic Pacific will satisfy no one. (I believe that one vendor had a Paciific model that was roundly criticized here because it had something on it that "wasn't right".) And this potential model thing is not limited to steam. I would like to see a GE C32 dash 8 model. If "they" produced these I would buy two. But again, because only Conrail originally had these, who is going to buy the other 998? So, the only way any of these wish list models will get produced would be for someone to step up with their own money to fund the project and be responsible for the involved risk. All I see here is criticism of the existing vendors for not spending their money and assuming their risk to manufacture something that I maybe might want. Somehow I don't see that happening.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL The question is how does the public express to them this "demand"? Has a manufacturer ever asked you what models you would like to see made? Or, do the manufacturers simply say, "we think Big Boys will be popular, so lets make some", or, "the other guy made Big Boys and he did not go broke, maybe we should make some?". If they sell, they make more. So there may well be a long list of stuff that would sell, that no one has made......
How the public expresses the demand is a good question, and I have not seen an answer to this here, yet.
No, no one has asked me personally what I'd like to see made. And I'm not certain that this would even be a worthwhile task. I envision that for every 100 people surveyed there would almost be that many different answers. One of the now extinct model railroad publications used to have a rolling stock survey where people were asked which type model, tank car for example, they'd like to see and periodically those models would be manufactured.
In the case of the Big Boys, I don't know the logic of that manufacturing decision. I certainly don't want one. However, it seems that there are several vendors of them, and that there are multiple runs. And I don't think the produced models are languishing on the dealers shelves. So until that happens I think that some manufacturers will continue to produce them.
Concerning the long list of potential models, for example the Pacifics/mikes/consolidations/ten wheelers you would buy, well that's nice, but how many are you going to buy? You may buy two or three, but who is going to buy the other 997 from the lot of 1000 that is produced? And with steam engines the problem I see is that there are too many variations to come up with any standard model that would satisfy the masses. In the case of the Pacific there is the USRA light Pacific, the USRA heavy Pacific, plus whatever number of different prototype railroad Pacifics that might be out there. And obviously a generic Pacific will satisfy no one. (I believe that one vendor had a Paciific model that was roundly criticized here because it had something on it that "wasn't right".)
And this potential model thing is not limited to steam. I would like to see a GE C32 dash 8 model. If "they" produced these I would buy two. But again, because only Conrail originally had these, who is going to buy the other 998?
So, the only way any of these wish list models will get produced would be for someone to step up with their own money to fund the project and be responsible for the involved risk. All I see here is criticism of the existing vendors for not spending their money and assuming their risk to manufacture something that I maybe might want. Somehow I don't see that happening.
Agreed to a large degree, but a few points.
There is no reasonably accurate, reasonably well detailed plastic/diecast USRA Heavy Pacific on the market. The Generic BLI model is a USRA Light running gear, 73" drivers, outfitted with a USRA Heavy Mikado boiler - close but no cigar. The USRA Heavy had 79/80" drivers. By making just a few additional parts, BLI could make their Pacifics and Mikados much more accurate. Bachmann has done this with lots of their locos, including their new USRA Mike and Pacific.
As for asking me personally how many of some of those locos I would buy, well, if we base it on my existing fleet, it might be more than 2-3.
Spectrum USRA Heavy Mountains - 9 units
Spectrum Baldwin 2-8-0's - 8 units
Spectrum USRA 2-6-6-2's - 5 units
Bachmann LIMA 2-8-4's - 5 units
BLI USRA Heavy 2-8-2's - 2 units
Spectrum USRA Light 2-10-2's - 3 units
various brands USRA light 4-6-2's - 4 units
BLI N&W 2-6-6-4 - 2 units
Proto 2-8-8-2 - 2 units
etc, etc.
Some of these I plan to aquire a few more of.........
So I ask this question, how many people have nine Big Boys.........
The willingness of modelers like me to buy multiple copies to get that fleet feel has to at least partly make up for "famous loco collecting".
Look at my roster list above, who invested the least in tooling and sold me the most locos? The company that made more "ordinary" prototypes............
Sheldon
steemtrayn If we can have this, why not this:
If we can have this,
why not this:
Almost three years now, and still no BP20.
Dave
Just be glad you don't have to press "2" for English.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQ_ALEdDUB8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6hqFS1GZL4s
http://s73.photobucket.com/user/steemtrayn/media/MovingcoalontheDCM.mp4.html?sort=3&o=27
ATLANTIC CENTRALThe question is how does the public express to them this "demand"? Has a manufacturer ever asked you what models you would like to see made? Or, do the manufacturers simply say, "we think Big Boys will be popular, so lets make some", or, "the other guy made Big Boys and he did not go broke, maybe we should make some?". If they sell, they make more. So there may well be a long list of stuff that would sell, that no one has made......
Medina1128 I'm sure as has been mentioned before, the manufacturers base their product line on public demand. As younger modelers get into the hobby, they model what they're familiar with; modern railroads with modern equipment. There are fewer modelers that grew up with steam. I wonder what the current demographics of modelers are.
I'm sure as has been mentioned before, the manufacturers base their product line on public demand. As younger modelers get into the hobby, they model what they're familiar with; modern railroads with modern equipment. There are fewer modelers that grew up with steam. I wonder what the current demographics of modelers are.
The question is how does the public express to them this "demand"?
Has a manufacturer ever asked you what models you would like to see made?
Or, do the manufacturers simply say, "we think Big Boys will be popular, so lets make some", or, "the other guy made Big Boys and he did not go broke, maybe we should make some?". If they sell, they make more.
So there may well be a long list of stuff that would sell, that no one has made......
Marlon
See pictures of the Clinton-Golden Valley RR
emdmikethe wonders of Blackstone have chosen to pretty much ignoir anything outside of DRGW, where as I am a C&S and SPNG fan.
I'm pretty sure Blackstone's goal was to do D&RGW stuff first and then move on, of course that will probably take a long time but hopefully they will do something like C-16s and C-18s after the new Mikes so they can cover something other than just the D&RGW and RGS, with 16 and 18s they could pretty much do every major NG railroad in Colorado other than the C&S.
BMMECNYC ATLANTIC CENTRAL BMMECNYC fieryturbo To be fair, most of the F units are toy grade (Sorry Athearn, your Globe F units are no longer modeler's grade now that 67 years have passed) I always thought that the Genesis F units looked pretty good. Turbo is refering the old "blue Box" Athearn F unit, now sold under the Roundhouse name, not the Genesis F unit. Sheldon Ah, Wasnt planning on purchasing one of those anyway. But to say most are toy grade? If you ignore Bachmann and Roundhouse by default, that leaves Rapido, Genesis, and Intermountain. Not really toy grade...
ATLANTIC CENTRAL BMMECNYC fieryturbo To be fair, most of the F units are toy grade (Sorry Athearn, your Globe F units are no longer modeler's grade now that 67 years have passed) I always thought that the Genesis F units looked pretty good. Turbo is refering the old "blue Box" Athearn F unit, now sold under the Roundhouse name, not the Genesis F unit. Sheldon
BMMECNYC fieryturbo To be fair, most of the F units are toy grade (Sorry Athearn, your Globe F units are no longer modeler's grade now that 67 years have passed) I always thought that the Genesis F units looked pretty good.
fieryturbo To be fair, most of the F units are toy grade (Sorry Athearn, your Globe F units are no longer modeler's grade now that 67 years have passed)
I always thought that the Genesis F units looked pretty good.
Turbo is refering the old "blue Box" Athearn F unit, now sold under the Roundhouse name, not the Genesis F unit.
Ah,
Wasnt planning on purchasing one of those anyway. But to say most are toy grade? If you ignore Bachmann and Roundhouse by default, that leaves Rapido, Genesis, and Intermountain. Not really toy grade...
Agreed.
Of course a Blue Box Athearn F7 set with diesel dressup kits, GSB cab interiors, American Limited close coupling and diaphrams, and a replacement can motor makes a pretty nice model......even if its not "perfect".
And lets not forget Stewart/Bowser - another very nice version.
My favorites are Intermountain and Genesis as the best balance of detail and running quality.
fieryturboTo be fair, most of the F units are toy grade (Sorry Athearn, your Globe F units are no longer modeler's grade now that 67 years have passed)
To be fair, most of the F units are toy grade (Sorry Athearn, your Globe F units are no longer modeler's grade now that 67 years have passed)
...but I still can't get a nice set of "Final Four" era WP F-units for my HO layout.
Julian
Modeling Pre-WP merger UP (1974-81)
ATLANTIC CENTRAL DAVID FORTNEY I agree with both of you guys that we need smaller prototype steam. I would love smaller steam but the mfgs seem fixated that only large steam Sells. But there must be a reason they keep making, big boys, cab forwards, SD70Aces, es44's, etc. The only thing I can think off, it must sell and the bean counters love it. David, it is a known fact that production batches are much smaller than a decade or two ago. The question is not if big locos sell, the question is what additional variety would sell if produced. Increased variety expands long term interest in the hobby, growing the future markets. What happens when everybody has a Big Boy and only Big Boys are produced? That is obviously taking it to the extreem, but we are headed in that sort of direction. I have no problem with those who just want to collect/run famous and flashy locos, but my modeling interest is about capturing a specific realistic time, place, and image. I have little interest in spending money outside that goal. I do not and will not buy stuff just because they make it. I have never owned a Big Boy or an SD70, both are completely outside my interests. I know a great many modelers just like myself in this regard. But I have 135 locomotives, 1000 freight cars, 200 passenger cars, and would buy more if the right items are produced. And not just one. If someone made a B&O B18 10 wheeler that was DCC ready for $200, I would buy 3 or 4, maybe more. Look at my partial loco list in my earlier post, I am creating a realistic working roster, not a museum collection........ Sheldon
DAVID FORTNEY I agree with both of you guys that we need smaller prototype steam. I would love smaller steam but the mfgs seem fixated that only large steam Sells. But there must be a reason they keep making, big boys, cab forwards, SD70Aces, es44's, etc. The only thing I can think off, it must sell and the bean counters love it.
I agree with both of you guys that we need smaller prototype steam. I would love smaller steam but the mfgs seem fixated that only large steam Sells.
But there must be a reason they keep making, big boys, cab forwards, SD70Aces, es44's, etc. The only thing I can think off, it must sell and the bean counters love it.
David, it is a known fact that production batches are much smaller than a decade or two ago. The question is not if big locos sell, the question is what additional variety would sell if produced.
Increased variety expands long term interest in the hobby, growing the future markets. What happens when everybody has a Big Boy and only Big Boys are produced? That is obviously taking it to the extreem, but we are headed in that sort of direction.
I have no problem with those who just want to collect/run famous and flashy locos, but my modeling interest is about capturing a specific realistic time, place, and image. I have little interest in spending money outside that goal.
I do not and will not buy stuff just because they make it. I have never owned a Big Boy or an SD70, both are completely outside my interests.
I know a great many modelers just like myself in this regard.
But I have 135 locomotives, 1000 freight cars, 200 passenger cars, and would buy more if the right items are produced. And not just one. If someone made a B&O B18 10 wheeler that was DCC ready for $200, I would buy 3 or 4, maybe more.
Look at my partial loco list in my earlier post, I am creating a realistic working roster, not a museum collection........
https://www.brasstrains.com/BrassGuide/PDG/List/Baltimore-Ohio-4-6-0/d411.20
You can set up email alerts if they come in stock. The price ranges shown when logged in are $200-350.
PRR8259 Hi Sheldon-- I went through an articulated phase and maybe someday will again, however I do agree that more workaday engines would fit the bill. I have learned to appreciate the relatively compact yet powerful look of some heavy non-USRA 2-8-2 's. See you and I actually sometimes can agree! Regarding the Big Boy it has often been postulated that it is a male ego and or inadequacy in other areas thing...Why else would BLI have just done more even as yet another "ultimate" full on brass model is coming, again??? I think many buyers just have to have one like others must have a Centennial diesel. For myself there are certain relatively forgotten 2-6-6-2's that I would rather have. John
Hi Sheldon--
I went through an articulated phase and maybe someday will again, however I do agree that more workaday engines would fit the bill. I have learned to appreciate the relatively compact yet powerful look of some heavy non-USRA 2-8-2 's. See you and I actually sometimes can agree!
Regarding the Big Boy it has often been postulated that it is a male ego and or inadequacy in other areas thing...Why else would BLI have just done more even as yet another "ultimate" full on brass model is coming, again???
I think many buyers just have to have one like others must have a Centennial diesel.
For myself there are certain relatively forgotten 2-6-6-2's that I would rather have.
John
Yes John I suspect there is a lot we can agree on.
Heavy non USRA Mikes, how about my freelanced ones:
Still unpainted in the this photo, I built five of these from Bachmann Berkshires, similar to but larger than the modern Mikes built by LIMA for the DT&I.
And after doing considerable research on the matter, I concluded, that with C&O or N&W grade trackage, the classic LIMA Berk could have built built as a Mike, with similar specs to the GREAT NORTHERN O-8 Mikes.
And I love my compact but powerful 2-6-6-2's.......
There were 25 Big Boys, there were 14,000 Mikados........
Anyway, the manufacturers are missing the boat. They could be be growing and expanding their own markets, but they are contributing to the stagnation and splintering of the market.
DAVID FORTNEY Anybody who has been part of manufacturing on the marketing side and or the financial side need the product being made to sell. There are many ways to know in a few percentage points what will sell. If your wrong too many times you better start looking for another job. If you cannot turn over inventory then you will not be in business long.
Anybody who has been part of manufacturing on the marketing side and or the financial side need the product being made to sell. There are many ways to know in a few percentage points what will sell. If your wrong too many times you better start looking for another job.
If you cannot turn over inventory then you will not be in business long.
David, respectfully, I have been in business for myself most of my life, I am 59.
I spent the first part of my working carear in the hobby/model train business. I know the numbers in this industry, I still know my share of people in this industry.
BLI and MTH fighting over the same customers is not the best way to make money.
It does not matter how many Big Boys are made by who, I'm not buying, neither are a lot of others.
Bachmann has sold me not just one copy of a given loco, but in many cases, 5 or 6 or more because they have offered "everyday" locos that fit the theme of my modeling.
Who made more money?, BLI selling one Big Boy, or Bachmann selling me nine USRA heavy Mountains, seven 2-8-0's, five 2-8-4's, five 2-6-6-2's?
Based on the modelers I know personally, the manufacturers are leaving lots of money on the table by not offering other products and fighting over the same customers.
Anyone really interested in building a long term business would be doing things to expand the hobby and the market, not shrink it.
ATLANTIC CENTRALAs steam goes, we need more Pacifics, Mikes, Consolidations, Ten Wheelers.....that is what I would buy..... Sheldon
Sheldon,If they produced a C&O G9 then I would sell all my 77/78 and 94/95 stuff change eras to around 1954/55.. I heard several old C&O men say over the years those G9s was a railroader's locomotive.
Walthers make a C&O wood caboose to go with that G9.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
As to the manufacturers all making the same things, well they produce what sells. It makes good business sense. Also the research on the locomotives is super easy. They can go directly to Progress Rail (EMD) or GE for locomotive drawings. They can stand next to the tracks anywhere in the US and snap a current photo of any road number locomotive.
Actually is does not completely make sense. If three companies already mske nice Big Boys, and have already sold a lot of them to some percentage of the customer pool, why be the 4th guy and settle for 1/4 of an already deminished market.
Why not try to figure out what else might sell at least as well or better than the deminished Big Boy market and invest in that?
It worked for Athearn and Roundhouse for about 40 years.........
If their new experiment with Loksound works out, Athearn may be the next to switch. Now if they would just get rid of those light bulbs...
Too many ES44s? Well at least there are a lot of the real thing out there. You still see even MORE Big Boys being introduced and I think there have been almost more manufacturers of Big Boys than actual Big Boys that ever existed. The quantities needed to just reak even on a plastic model mean you will pretty much never see a loco that sold dozens in the real works mas produced (there have been exceptions, like those Alco C415s that have been done by more than one manufacturer) but in general for the specials and rare locos you have to look to brass where the higher price of the model can pay for the research and tooling to produce it and they don't have to sell 10's of thousands of them. Mass production manufacturers make what sells, and today's locos sell, Big Boys sell.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
riogrande5761 From what I've read, the IMR SD40-2's haven't met the ultimage SD40-2 criteria either. IMR is still struggling to establish a quality line of HO engines. I agree, it may take Athearn to produce Genesis SD40-2's before you see the "last word" in that diesel in HO.
From what I've read, the IMR SD40-2's haven't met the ultimage SD40-2 criteria either. IMR is still struggling to establish a quality line of HO engines. I agree, it may take Athearn to produce Genesis SD40-2's before you see the "last word" in that diesel in HO.
So what you are saying the "ultimate" SD40-2 in your mind will be equipped with lightbulbs, Soundtrax Tsunami sound that you can barely hear and McHenry couplers? I'll pass on that thanks. As you can tell I am less than impressed with Athearn Genesis offerings of late (I bought the most recent run of B&M GP7s with HEP). They were great, except for the long list of things I had to do to the locomotive to get it to run, to include completely re-assembling the trucks and gluing in all of the small detail parts that had no evidence of glue on them and were floating around in the box. Oh and I forgot to mention the plastic clips they use to attach the wires to the decoder.
I also own a SD70ace from Athearn Genesis it did not have these problems. I bought it without a decoder because of the above mentioned poor sound performance.
Scaletrains.com is releasing SD40-2s with road specific details. They have already announced their second run. I will let you know how they run, if they come as a kit you have to assemble in from loose parts floating in the box, etc.
Also Scaletrains.com is producing ES44 Tier 4 GEVOs, so I guess that would make 7 manufacturers.
FWIW 2 out of 3 of my Intermountain SD40-2s run flawlessly. My third one may have a warped truck frame, that Intermountain has offered to replace for free (they have offered to let me fix it myself or send it back).
As far as MTH customer support goes, I have never had an issue with getting a hold of them for issues with my O gauge equipment. They have been responsive to both my email and phone inquiries.
I want an EMD SD18 in Chessie System paint. I'm not holding my breath on that one (although it is a valid paint scheme for several railroads and leasing companies). There just were not all that many produced to begin with.
ATLANTIC CENTRALIt is still amazing how few Pacifics there are in HO considering it was the third most produced wheel arragement in North America. As steam goes, we need more Pacifics, Mikes, Consolidations, Ten Wheelers.....that is what I would buy.....
Mike
The manufacturers can't know for sure what else might be popular until they make it.
It is still amazing how few Pacifics there are in HO considering it was the third most produced wheel arragement in North America. As steam goes, we need more Pacifics, Mikes, Consolidations, Ten Wheelers.....that is what I would buy.....
Uncle_Bob I wish someone (preferably Kato or FVM) did an AC6000 in N scale,
I wish someone (preferably Kato or FVM) did an AC6000 in N scale,
Broadway Limited Imports are making the SP, CSX, UP, and I think two others.
Amtrak America, 1971-Present.
The reason allot of SD70acs's, ES44ac/DC, F units and others are made is that they sell.
The mfgs. have to make what sells not those esoteric locomotives that have few modelers. Brass builders are the mfgs. Of choice for those type of engines.
No different than every mfg needing to do thier version of the F unit, Big Boy ect. What is needed is more of the "work a day" engines from the steam era, a nice low hood GP7/9 to cover the rebuilds working for so many short lines, GP10 from the Paducah and BN rebuild shops. Or concentrate on making all the details functional. No more fake beacons, all should flash in a prototype manor on both DCC and non DCC models in this day and age. Constant bright LED headlights and ditch lights(if equipted) should be the norm. Lots of room for improvement, and yes, in todays fickle economy, there should be much less duplication between mfg's. Thankfully I am in G scale with a side of HOn3. Don't need much in G, I have plenty and for HOn3, the wonders of Blackstone have chosen to pretty much ignoir anything outside of DRGW, where as I am a C&S and SPNG fan. So older brass engines and kits are on my "to be found" list. Mike
Silly NT's, I have Asperger's Syndrome