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Why A 4' x 8' Sheet Of Plywood For A Layout?

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Why A 4' x 8' Sheet Of Plywood For A Layout?
Posted by BATMAN on Saturday, February 15, 2014 3:24 PM

Out in my garage/workshop I have some sheets plywood. They measure 5' x 9' and 5' x 10' and my father in law has a couple of 6' x 12' sheets.  Ten years ago when my then 5 year old son made me haul the trains of my youth out of the farthest reaches of no-mans land known as the crawl space I set it up on the 5'x 10' sheet. It was "Treble O" scale  about the size of "N scale"  The 5' x 10' offered lots of breathing room for all I had.

Going forward to getting model railroader mags. and joining the forum I saw a 4'x 8' sheet was the prefered way to go for so many newbies.  Though I chose to jump to a room sized layout upon my return to the hobby, I couldn't help but wonder why those that choose a 4' x 8' sheet of plywood don't jump up to a larger sheet? Also has MR magazine ever done "Beginner layouts on a 5' x 10' or 6' x 12' sheet of plywood?  This would help with the issue's of small radius curves and not having quite enough room for that hill climb at a reasonable grade.

I bet all those that opted for the 4' x 8' sheet could have fit in a little larger size sheet of plywood. I have just not ever seen it suggested to someone going with a 4' x 8'.

Brent

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Posted by NittanyLion on Saturday, February 15, 2014 3:38 PM

Pretty straightforward really: walk into anywhere that sells lumber in America, walk out with a 4x8 sheet of plywood and a few 2x4s that happen to be about eight feet long for a frame and some legs.

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Posted by tstage on Saturday, February 15, 2014 3:43 PM

Brent,

I don't know about Canada but here in the States 4 x 8 is VERY common and a standard for plywood sheeting.  I'm going to wager to guess that anything larger than 4 x 8 is more difficult to find other than at a lumber yard and might even be a special order item.  Since MR is based here in the States (WI) and 4 x 8 is the common standard, that's the reason they choose that size.  With that said, the recent MR layout is slightly larger (5') in width because the plan is more triangular in shape.

I would love a larger length and width for my layout.  However, a 4 x 8 is just the right size to fit at one end of my basement (perpendicular to the long wall) in order for me to have access on 3 sides.  That's why I've been toying with the idea of a partial around-the-wall redesign so that my curved radii can increase from R22" to R30-36".  That would give me the ability run not only my freight cars but also my passenger cars, as well.

Tom

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Posted by davidmurray on Saturday, February 15, 2014 3:55 PM

Hi Guys:

I live in Ontario, Canada and have never seen a sheet of plywood larger than 4'x8', even on DIY shows.

Four by eight sheeting matches 16" or 24" on center for the building trades.

Dave

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Posted by maxman on Saturday, February 15, 2014 4:07 PM

BATMAN
They measure 5' x 9' 

You could, at one time, purchase 5X9 foot  sheets for ping pong tables.  The standard ping pong table dimensions are 152.5 cm by 274 cm, which works out to about 5 X 9 feet.  Not many folks go into the big box stores looking to build ping pong tables any more

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Posted by dstarr on Saturday, February 15, 2014 4:09 PM

If you have a larger sheet, go with it.  Thing is, 4 by 8 is the standard plywood size, and I've never seen anything bigger.  I hear you can get 5 by 9 for ping pong tables, but I don't remember ever seeing it in a lumber yard. 

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Posted by galaxy on Saturday, February 15, 2014 4:18 PM

You must have specially milled plywood or plywood form olden days?

As was said, VERY common to find a 4x8 anywhere here.

I hav never seen anything larger in plywood than 4x12, not even on the home improvement shows either.

I HAVE seen longer sheets of drywall, though, up to 4x 12 & 4x 16 footers! They are rare and the 4x16 footer drywall has to be special order/deliver. i only saw it on a short film about making drywall at the factory. 16' is double the 8' length they said so it could be made for special places.

and as mentioned the 4 foot width divides by 16 On Center for builders easily enough.

JUST because I have NOT seen it {a 5x9 sheet of plywood} doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

But a quick look at HD's website doesn't reveal anything larger than 4x8, though I did not check every nook and crany. A quick search for "5x9 plywood" HD said back "sorry no matches found".

Geeked

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Posted by IRONROOSTER on Saturday, February 15, 2014 4:22 PM

4x8 is the largest I have ever seen.  If you get 2 sheets of 4x8 and have them each cut across at 5'4", you get 4 pieces that can be arranged into a 5'4" x 12' tabletop.  If you have the room, this is probably a better start than 4x8 for HO.

Enjoy

Paul

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Posted by TomLutman on Saturday, February 15, 2014 4:27 PM

You can special order larger sheets of plywood, up to 16ft in some materials, but you run into stability ( expansion/contraction), type material, thickness, weight, and cost. It would be more cost effective to add on to the 4x8.

Besides, you ever try to get a 5x12 chunk of wood down a set of stairs.....WITHOUT putting a hole in the wall or wiping out something?

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Posted by tomikawaTT on Saturday, February 15, 2014 4:29 PM

Apparently each country has its own 'standard' size.  Here in the US, it's 4 x 8, and larger sizes are special order items.  Houses are built to use that size, both plywood and drywall, and that's what ordinary DIY folks find at their big box home improvement centers.

In Japan, the equivalent is one tatami, which works out to 3 x 6 - and that's the standard size for a sheet of plywood.  Houses which employed tatami flooring had rooms specified as four, six, eight or other counts of tatami, not specified by wall dimensions.  The very common 9x9 room was specified as 4 1/2 tatami, and the mats were spiraled with a half-mat in the center.

Since four feet = 1219.2mm I rather suspect that plywood sheets in other parts of the world which have active forest products industries have more convenient metric dimensions.  Or they might have gone the way of Japan, which had been standardized on the non-metric tatami for a good many centuries before the metric system was developed.

I actually built a model railroad in a one-tatami closet back in the early '60s.  The Akane USRA 2-6-6-2 I accidentally acquired looked seriously ugly rounding the 400mm radius curves - but it handled them.

Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)

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Posted by cacole on Saturday, February 15, 2014 4:35 PM

An older Atlas track plan book calls for 5x9 foot plywood sheets, which were apparently fairly standard back then.  Today's standard sheet is 4x8 feet.  Don't know when the size changed.

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Posted by BroadwayLion on Saturday, February 15, 2014 4:57 PM

4x8 is easier to handle, and as has been pointed out, fits 16" studs either way. 5x9 is ping pong table.

Largers sizes, especially in panelling is possible. My shop teacher did some contracting in the summer time, and for one job that pecified perhaps a 10 or so lenght of panneling, he doubled the price on his estimate. When questioned he said it was "in case I make a mistake". The outraged homeowner said 'Mistakes are on you." Reply: "Fine, go find someone else to do it." He got other estimates, and all of them came in at more than double what he offered, so they came back to him, and he did the job.

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Posted by NittanyLion on Saturday, February 15, 2014 5:41 PM

cacole

An older Atlas track plan book calls for 5x9 foot plywood sheets, which were apparently fairly standard back then.  Today's standard sheet is 4x8 feet.  Don't know when the size changed.

 

I remember ping pong tables being way more common in the past and lots of kids around having trains on ping pong tables.

Now that my friends and I are roughly the same age as our parents were back then...none of us own ping pong tables.  Then again, we all had a grandma that owned an electric organ and none of our parents did!

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Posted by BroadwayLion on Saturday, February 15, 2014 5:52 PM

NittanyLion
I remember ping pong tables being way more common in the past and lots of kids around having trains on ping pong tables.

Remember that pingpong tables used to be large, heavy affairs. Now a days they are flimsy folding things that I would not trust a layout. on. The east blob on my layout consists of two pingpong tables end to end, but these were built by us, and you would have no trouble parking a tank on them. Well, perhaps a volkswagen.

 

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Posted by "JaBear" on Saturday, February 15, 2014 5:58 PM
Gidday Brent, just for the record, the 8 x 4 foot sheet is also the standard here in New Zealand, though now I would order a 2400 x 1200 (millimetre) sheet, and though Chuck has pointed the exact conversion from imperial to metrics, 2438.4 x 1219.2 mm, an 8x 4 foot sheet is what I’d end up with! Huh? Confused

 Not that the timber dimensions here would have had any bearing layout designs on US model railway magazines though.Smile, Wink & Grin                                                                                                   

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Posted by jmbjmb on Saturday, February 15, 2014 6:03 PM

Not only because 4x8 is a common size, but it also fits 18 inch radius for HO.  Most new modelers think in terms of table tops so they build a 4x8 table and put the track on it.  When you get away from the "table" idea and think in terms of roadbed (like L girder) then the rectangle starts to fade away.

That said, sometimes I think I should go ahead and built a 4x8 just to see what can be done in that size, like the Virginian.

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Posted by riogrande5761 on Saturday, February 15, 2014 7:38 PM

18 inch and 22 inch radius were probably designed and standardized because of the 4x8 plywood straight jacket.

As for 5x9, I would heartily recommend that except I've never seen a 5x9 sheet in my life.  I think that is a good minium size however and allows more reasonable curves in HO.

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Posted by wrumbel on Saturday, February 15, 2014 9:58 PM

My first layout in 1961 was built on a 5 x 9 sheet of 3/4 plywood.  I remember the night my dad brought it home on the roof of his 1960 Ford Galaxy!

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Posted by BATMAN on Sunday, February 16, 2014 2:34 AM

I doubt you will ever find anything larger than a 4' x 8' sheet at a big box store. There are specialty plywood shops around here that carry larger stuff. I was talking to my Father in law and asked what the larger sheets were used for and he said all our sheets came from a sign company that made large roadside billboards and signs for real estate companies selling things like farms or comercial properties where a large sign is needed. He said you can get plywood 16' long that is used in the Yacht building industry.  Also I read that modern fully computerized mills can change the size of the sheets they produce with the push of a few buttons and will do batch orders.  4' x 12' sheets are being used in the construction of these new monster Mcmansions that have 12' ceilings.

I suppose if you wanted to build a layout on plywood and didn't know that anything larger than a 4' x 8' existed why would you even look for it. It may be just something to consider if you can hunt down a plywood specialty store or it just becomes more readily available. I use to move my 5' x 10' plywood prairie back and forth between the dining room and family room when my son and I set up the old stuff. The track was nail down but it was a gut buster to move. I think foam was a marvalous invention.Laugh

Brent

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Posted by alco_fan on Sunday, February 16, 2014 10:18 AM

BATMAN
I suppose if you wanted to build a layout on plywood and didn't know that anything larger than a 4' x 8' existed why would you even look for it. It may be just something to consider if you can hunt down a plywood specialty store or it just becomes more readily available.

Or just buy a saw. I live in a pretty big town and there are no "plywood specialty stores". There are a couple of good lumber dealers but the cost of a 5X10 plywood special order there would be way more than two quality 4X8 sheets _and_ the saw.

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Posted by BATMAN on Sunday, February 16, 2014 10:33 AM

alco_fan

 

 
BATMAN
I suppose if you wanted to build a layout on plywood and didn't know that anything larger than a 4' x 8' existed why would you even look for it. It may be just something to consider if you can hunt down a plywood specialty store or it just becomes more readily available.

 

Or just buy a saw. I live in a pretty big town and there are no "plywood specialty stores". There are a couple of good lumber dealers but the cost of a 5X10 plywood special order there would be way more than two quality 4X8 sheets _and_ the saw.

 
Thats how you and I would do it. However a lot of plywood users are people that don't have that ability or interest in the carpentry end of things and that's why they go with a basic sheet of plywood in the first place. I have people come over and get me to cut up things for them and they are terrified of my power tools.
 A 5' x 10' sheet is certainly more $ than a 4' x 8' sheet but not a lot. My jaw has dropped at the money some have spent on custom made benchwork, so spending a few bucks on a custom sheet of plywood wouldn't seem unreasonable if that's what they wanted.

Brent

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Posted by maxman on Sunday, February 16, 2014 11:41 AM

BATMAN
A 5' x 10' sheet is certainly more $ than a 4' x 8' sheet but not a lot.

Since none of us can seem to find any place that would sell a 5X9 sheet, it would be interesting to know your point of reference concerning price.  What are you comparing?

I would agree that the plywood manufacturers probably have the ability to change sizes, but how many sheets are you willing to order?  One?  A hundred?  A thousand?  I doubt very much that the local lumber store is going to be interested in special ordering one 5X9 piece.  Maybe a big sign shop actually has access to the stuff, but that guy isn't going to run a piece of plywood through his books at cost either.

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Posted by Geared Steam on Sunday, February 16, 2014 11:50 AM

I'm assuming we are talking about modelers who are not capable of sawing, gluing and screwing plywood sheets together? 

 

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Posted by bogp40 on Sunday, February 16, 2014 12:15 PM

There are specailty plywood suppliers that will stock or order  sizes larger than the traditional 4x8. Generally used for signs, specialty substrate on casework, store fixtures and tops. Not all species are available in larger panels. If one was to need a panel so large for our purposes, a search will show suppliers, but usually in larger cities or manufacturing areas.

I use one of these suppliers for cabinet grade, and flexible panels in various wood species.

http://www.boulterplywood.com/

The first Google search showed this:

http://www.eagleplywood.com/

 

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Posted by IRONROOSTER on Sunday, February 16, 2014 1:25 PM

alco_fan

 

 
BATMAN
I suppose if you wanted to build a layout on plywood and didn't know that anything larger than a 4' x 8' existed why would you even look for it. It may be just something to consider if you can hunt down a plywood specialty store or it just becomes more readily available.

 

Or just buy a saw. I live in a pretty big town and there are no "plywood specialty stores". There are a couple of good lumber dealers but the cost of a 5X10 plywood special order there would be way more than two quality 4X8 sheets _and_ the saw.

 

The big box lumber/hardware stores near where I live will cut it for you.  At least one cut is free, I have never asked for more.  Makes it esaier to haul home.

Enjoy

Paul

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Posted by tomikawaTT on Sunday, February 16, 2014 2:38 PM

My local big box suppliers do a brisk trade in 2 x 4 sheets of (mostly) thinner plywood.  I guess the amateur cabinetmakers around here specialize in night stands and other small items.

I recall some years back MR suggested cutting a triangle off a 4 x 8 sheet and reattaching it to make a shed-shaped surface for one track plan.  That was back when there were several suggested plans in each issue (and, boy, did I just date myself!)

Since my construction sequence has me making cardboard track pattern templates first I have no problem with using small or odd-shaped pieces of ply when I cut my cookies.  I just make sure to keep everything properly aligned.  OTOH, I've reached the point in physical capability where handling even a 4 x 8 sheet of plywood is more of a challenge than I need.  4 X 8 foam, no problem (yet.)

Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)

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Posted by BATMAN on Sunday, February 16, 2014 3:50 PM

 

 

maxman

 

 
BATMAN
A 5' x 10' sheet is certainly more $ than a 4' x 8' sheet but not a lot.

 

Since none of us can seem to find any place that would sell a 5X9 sheet, it would be interesting to know your point of reference concerning price.  What are you comparing?

I would agree that the plywood manufacturers probably have the ability to change sizes, but how many sheets are you willing to order?  One?  A hundred?  A thousand?  I doubt very much that the local lumber store is going to be interested in special ordering one 5X9 piece.  Maybe a big sign shop actually has access to the stuff, but that guy isn't going to run a piece of plywood through his books at cost either.

 

 
I have two specialty plywood places about fifteen minutes away from my house where you can go buy larger sheets as singles. I have not been there in a long time but when you own a pick-up truck you have a lot of best friends all of a sudden.Laugh Anyway my friend was buying a 5' x 10' sheet of birch ( i think it was Birch) It's what they make slate billiards tables with, so I was told. The price of the 5' x 10' was about 60% more than the 4' x 8'.  The price difference (%) was the same for all grades, only the $ amount changed depending on the grade. For some the price difference may be an issue, for others maybe not. Someone might prefer paying for a larger sheet over the thought of mating up two smaller pieces. Also the price of lumber goes up and down like the price of gas so it's a crap shoot.
Anyway the point of the thread was to make people aware that they are not stuck using 4' x 8's if they want a sheet of ply for their layout. You just need to make the effort to look beyond Home Depot.
 
As a side note, there is a mill in B.C. that is making sheets from Fir that are approximately 9' x 41' when converted from metric. They are just the right size to fit in a container for shipping to China. I have no idea what the Chinese are doing with the stuff. I have been searching You-Tube for the video as it was on the news a few months back. Maybe someone will have better luck than I looking.
All I know is that a 9' x 41' sheet would make a heck of a Plywood Prairie layout.Surprise

Brent

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Posted by ACY Tom on Sunday, February 16, 2014 4:05 PM

I recall seeing sizes larger than 4x8', but that was when I was a kid, over 50 years ago.

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Posted by riogrande5761 on Sunday, February 16, 2014 4:24 PM

ACY

I recall seeing sizes larger than 4x8', but that was when I was a kid, over 50 years ago.

 

Of course what matters is present day.  50 years ago is only good if you have a time machine.

BTW, I've noticed at Home Depot and Lowes, the 4x8 sheets of plywood are pretty warped.  I decided to us OSB (Oriented Strand Board) nominally 1/2 inch thick as it has little or no warp and only costs about $8 at my local home depot.

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Posted by BATMAN on Sunday, February 16, 2014 4:32 PM

bogp40
The first Google search showed this: http://www.eagleplywood.com/

Pics of larger sheets on Bobs' link. Thanks for posting Bob.

Brent

"All of the world's problems are the result of the difference between how we think and how the world works."

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