One of the golden rules that always gets touted is, "Never make your layout deeper then 30 inches, because that is the limit of your reach"That becomes quite a connundrum and is quite limited in some ways. For example, if you want a 30" turn radius, you would always have to shove your track to the far outside to make the curve and reach limit. And it's especially problematic for helixes that commonly sit in corners.What happens if you are modeling a very busy yard, or service facility especially in a city? That doesn't leave much room for scenary behind the track or in front of the track. Some buildings are nearly 12" deep alone!
Some of the best mega layouts I've seen violate the 30" rule all the time.So I would like to humbly make a suggestion: The 30" reach rule be appended with a big fat * at the end. And that * would read like this:
* You shouldn't plan a layout with a bench depth greater then 30" UNLESS you observe the following:1. The deepest your track should reach is 30". Scenery is okay beyond the 30" as long as you have an access hole.
2. Track beyond 30" is okay IF you keep trackwork simple (limit switches, a constant source of derailment) and have an access hole.
3. Realize that anything past 30" will still collect dust. So make sure you can reach it to clean with extension wands or access holes.4. If you don't provide an access hole, realize you may have to climb up OVER the layout and possibly break scenery in the process.
And yes I've worked on two layouts with > 30" depth (two in fact, my own and my club)
Don - Specializing in layout DC->DCC conversions
Modeling C&O transition era and steel industries There's Nothing Like Big Steam!
Maybe they should change it to the ''The 30'' inch rule'' Plus common sense. Then add your four reason's, or maybe you would think that it should already be realized. I don't believe, I will be losing much sleep over it ,one way or the other.
Sometimes, people learn better, by doing.
Striped
IMHO the 30" rule should be changed to "use good common sense" which is far better then what the "experts" taught over the last 50 years.
A 30" reach may be comfortable for a tall person but,those of us that is on the short side may find that 30" reach rough to do without learning over the layout on tippy toes."
Hows that?
I stand 67 1/2" and if my layout is 48" that doesn't leave much room for that 30" reach especially if there is scenery along the front of the layout..
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
DigitalGriffin* You shouldn't plan a layout with a bench depth greater then 30" UNLESS you observe the following: 1. The deepest your track should reach is 30". Scenery is okay beyond the 30" as long as you have an access hole. 2. Track beyond 30" is okay IF you keep trackwork simple (limit switches, a constant source of derailment) and have an access hole. 3. Realize that anything past 30" will still collect dust. So make sure you can reach it to clean with extension wands or access holes. 4. If you don't provide an access hole, realize you may have to climb up OVER the layout and possibly break scenery in the process.
Once you provide the access holes, you are keeping the 30" rule. So what is the big difference?
My layout has a couple areas that violate the rule. I've been living happily with it for years, the trade off for the use of the space gained has proven to be well worth it. My layout can support my 200 lbs easily, as seldom as it has ever needed to. Don't forget the other rule; your layout, your rules!
I can do a 36" reach, if I have to, more because I'm tall than athletic. But it's not easy anymore for a lot of reasons. I was just talking with an operator today about how far it was to the center of the big penisula. It's about 7' across, within a few inches, because I have 28"minR curves through there, pretty tight to the -- even tighter -- aisle.
This is what it looks like.
The service area basically sits in "no hand's land" -- you can gain a few inches by having a short stool to stand on -- just don't loose your balance when reaching in. It also helps that it's mostly 3/4" ply out there. There are parking lots where I can rest a hand to get into the "red zone" more easily. Just have to be careful. And there is a popup hiding under there, out of service, beneath the parking lot at the grocery wholesaler. Once things get so far., I hope to never need it again, although it served it's purpose.
The service area basically sits in "no hand's land" -- you can gain a few inches by having a short stool to stand on -- just don't loose your balance when reaching in.
It also helps that it's mostly 3/4" ply out there. There are parking lots where I can rest a hand to get into the "red zone" more easily. Just have to be careful.
And there is a popup hiding under there, out of service, beneath the parking lot at the grocery wholesaler. Once things get so far., I hope to never need it again, although it served it's purpose.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
"Some of the best mega layouts I've seen violate the 30" rule all the time."
I agree! Rod Stewart's layout comes to mind. Also, the Gorre and Daphitid (sp?) had some reach issues if I recall. What about that massive display in Germany with an airport and all?
My track plan has all the track within a 30" reach but the scenery will extend up to 18" further in the corners. I'm 6' 2" and I have tested the 30" reach. No problem but I will make obstacles like light poles etc. removable.
Dust? I'll just get out the garden hose! Seriously, I am considering dust minimization strategies like positive air pressure and weatherstrip on the entry door.
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
It's only a rule if you choose to adopt it, otherwise, do as you wish, and let the experts worry about it.
"The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge but imagination."-Albert Einstein
http://gearedsteam.blogspot.com/
The so-called, "30 inch rule," is a recommended practice, not a standard.
The actual rule should read, "Be sure anything that will have to be maintained can be reached." That doesn't necessarily mean reached with both feet on the floor outboard of the fascia. If you want a scene 2+ meters wide, be aware that you will need a topside creeper or a trapeze rig to get to that extreme rear corner.
For that matter, as Brakie mentioned, 30 inches at a height of 48 inches may be excessive if that puts the scene at armpit level. Of course, a solidly-built step stool will do wonders for that problem - but, again, that lifts the feet off the floor and changes the access geometry.
My own layout runs to narrow shelves or shallow scenes on both sides of peninsulas less than five feet wide. There is one run where the full depth of the 19 foot 4 inch table is slightly over thirty inches - to the back of the backdrop. That's my main operating location, track level 44 inches. I kept everything that may need significant attention within 500mm of the fascia. The only rails back there in hard-to-reach land are one thoroughfare (TTT main) and the stub ends of single-ended yard tracks.
Small scenes not including rails can be lifted out (wiring, if any, is connected with plugs) for cleaning or superdetailing. If I can't raise the bridge, I lower the river.
The one thing I absolutely avoid in my construction is pop-up access. I have to deal with the reality that I'm not as flexible as a gymnast. Others might not have that problem - yet.
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
Don't forget, in addition to your arm length, height, and agility, the length of your reach is in direct proportion to the size of your gut. Same goes to the size of the access hole. Especially the older you get. I have a duckunder and a corner access on the my current layout that I started 6 years ago. Everywhere else has available reach. Problem is I didn't anticipate a few spine surgeries related to severe arthritis conditions. Able to move around fairly good, but not like I was able a few years back. Try to plan ahead if all possible.
Willy:
Ya! Access hole has to equal the size of my gut. OOPs - there goes half the layout!
Reach-in ability is a combination of heigth of the layout from the floor, heigth of scenery/and or rails along layout edge factored against the sleeve length of your arms. The closer to eye level yout layout is, the shorter the reach-in is without the use of stepstools, top side creepers, etc.
The front of my layout is at 36", with streets, tracks, and sundry short buildings. Needing to buy shirts with 34" sleeves, I can reach comfortably 33-35" into the layout-depending on what I am reaching over or through. Tracks in the mountains along the back side of the layout are 41-42" elevation. Reach-in from the backside is only about 18-20", even though my arms have not lost any length during the front to back side commute.
Don H.
Dave:
The aisles seem to be getting a little narrower too. Must be the wood expanding.
Willy
hmmmmm, 30 inches deep is the RP for HO, would 15-18" be the prime depths of a layout?
there's a lot on could do in 15-18" the Tenino Western is a great example of that.
SP&S modeler, 1960's give or take a decade or two for some equipment.
http://www.youtube.com/user/SGTDUPREY?feature=guide
Gary DuPrey
N scale model railroader
You have confused the term "rule" with "recommendation".
The recommendation is that you consider your reach in determining depth. That is somewhere around 30 inches for most people at average bench heights.
Things that will effect YOUR limit include your height, your bench height, how many sides of the benchwork are accessable, the existance or not of access holes, and your ability to climb on or hang over the layout.
In a nutshell, it is a mistake to build something you cannot reach. The same logic is used for tunnels.
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
Rules?
In a perfect MR world, we would all like a layout with depth and yet be able to have everything within arms reach.
Well, for most of us that just ain't gonna happen.
My layout fills an 11x15 room, with room for the door to open and the middle of the layout/room open for the operator. This was my second layout of similar design in 16 years, and I was fully aware that I would be giving up convenience for more square footage of layout.
The trick is to make the furthest reaches bullet proof - well laid trackage with minimal derailment possibilities. Also, in putting down scenery (after significant testing of course), start with the furthest areas and work inward. This is obviously a very common sense thing - but common sense ain't all that common.
To sum up, put your design on paper and draw it in scale. Then measure you "reach spans" and determine if they are acceptable to YOU, or if you can deal with them if they are not.
ENJOY !
Mobilman44
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central
NP 2626 "Northern Pacific, really terrific"
Northern Pacific Railway Historical Association: http://www.nprha.org/
NYC-Big 4 Dave: The aisles seem to be getting a little narrower too. Must be the wood expanding. Willy
I thought this also, only to realize it is "us" that are "getting wider"
Duck unders seem to get lower, benchwork wider and need more light in that room.
Modeling B&O- Chessie Bob K. www.ssmrc.org
What about that massive display in Germany with an airport and all?
--------------------------------
Miniatur Wunderland Hamburg, Germany addressed that problem with pathways across the display that operators can walk on for maintenance and other problem solving. Some U-Tube videos show operators doing this. Nortlandz in NJ does something similar
George In Midcoast Maine, 'bout halfway up the Rockland branch
DigitalGriffinOne of the golden rules that always gets touted is, "Never make your layout deeper then 30 inches, because that is the limit of your reach" That becomes quite a connundrum and is quite limited in some ways. For example, if you want a 30" turn radius, you would always have to shove your track to the far outside to make the curve and reach limit. And it's especially problematic for helixes that commonly sit in corners.
It is a RULE! Rules are made to be broken. But you break them at your own risk. You already know why the rule is there, and you know why you want to by-pass the rule. Do the benefits out weigh the advantages? What other accomodations are you making for access. Are they resonable.
The 30" rule will allow a 60" wide table, and *that* is ok is it not?
LION has a 72" wide table. Him cannot reach the middle of it.
LION has put nothing in the middle of it. Nope, not even anything.
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
Rules? We don't need no steenking rules! Besides, there's only one rule that counts. "It's my fantasy, I'll do what I please with it."
Rich.
I always assumed that the 30 inch rule (perhaps better as "rule of thumb") referred to the track, not the layout per se. By all means disregard it if you wish, or rewrite it if you wish. But just remember this: yes the 30 inch rule is a rule, and rules are made to be broken.
But Murphy's Law never changes.
Dave Nelson
NP2626 There is absolutely no reason for people to get bent out of shape over the O.P. wanting to discuss this "RULE"! If you feel this discussion has come up to often; or, are tired of discussing it, well surprise, surprise, we don't need your opinion and would just as soon you simply ignored the question and moved on!
Okay I'm very curious, exactly what post are you talking about "getting bent out of shape" Nowhere do I see anyone saying what you claim is being said?
> ! <
I see some jokes about "expansion" of lumber vs the waistline, does those offend you? If so it shouldn't, some of us are just big boned.
OK, point is? People can build how they want. There are a lot of basic guidlines out there on everything from min radius to reach to layout height. All of them come with costs and benefits. It's up to each builder to determine the best mix for themselves. But always remember there's usually a reason for the guidlines and what seems a reasonable violation today may not be in 10 years.
Well, looking at your suggestions as the alternate to the rule - it looks like you are actually adhering to the rule. If you have access holes, then you you aren't beyond a 30" reach. If the layout is say 5 feet wide but you have an access hole along the back - no part is more than 30" away.
Static scenery more than 30" from the edge isn't a problem, other than how the heck do you get it there without leaning on and smashing the track that runs in front of it.
Not so sure on the curves. My previous layout had 30 and 32" radius curves. Each section was 2 feet wide. The made the reach from the inside corver to the outside corner about 34". (That Pythagorus dude was pretty sharp - diagonal would be square root of 8 feet long, which is about 34") However, the track was not right at the outside edge, the center of the curve was more than 4" in from the edge and easily accessible. From the outside - even the inside track wasn;t much more than a foot from the outer edge.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
I never believed in that rule. For one thing, I think it should only apply to the track, not the entire scene. I like deep scenes. My urban area is 4 feet deep with no access hatches. I have one section that is 4.5 feet deep. Sounds crazy doesn't it. The farthest track is only two feet from the aisle. I look at the other two feet as a three dimensional backdrop. Naturally, I scenicked that part of the layout first so I would have to do nothing more than maintenance after that. When I do have to reach that deep, that's what step stools are for. The foreground structures are removeable and if necessary, which occassionally it is, I climb up onto the layout, watching carefully where I put my feet. I've looked at that Top Side Creeper as an option but so far haven't found it to be necessary.
The rest of the layout is 3 feet deep and again, no problems. I do have some industrial spurs near the backdrop which are difficult to reach, but again, that's what step stools are for. The foreground is my classification yard so there are few structures to worry about when I reach in. The only access hatch I have on my layout is behind my roundhouse which sits inside of a corner curve. Couldn't do without that one.
I've adhered to the 30" recommendation in my yard and at places on my layout (turnouts) that might invite problems with a derailment, but I have several areas that definitely violate that recommendation--and by choice. Luckily, I'm over 6'tall and have a 36" reach. However, for those areas in which the depth is more and I just MIGHT have a problem, I also have a Topside Creeper that I bought for mountain scenery work. Helps me get into those awkward 'places', too.
Tom
Tom View my layout photos! http://s299.photobucket.com/albums/mm310/TWhite-014/Rio%20Grande%20Yuba%20River%20Sub One can NEVER have too many Articulateds!
jmbjmb But always remember there's usually a reason for the guidlines and what seems a reasonable violation today may not be in 10 years.
Very true that..
When I was young narrow isles and duck unders was no issue..Now that I'm older duck unders and narrow isles is out..
My old knee bones no longer likes to duck walk under a layout and my wide load needs more room to maneuver.
Well I'm 67, and have read most of the books and "rules" of buildiing!!! I broke the 30 inch rule and went 36 inches.... I have waited 42 years to build my layout... Started it 2 weeks ago, I'm so happy!!! solved the reach problem with a 18 by 18 by 36 inch box made out of 3/4 plywood...no problem with the reach!!!! Ya need to be in shape to build a railroad empire!!!!
hon30critter "Some of the best mega layouts I've seen violate the 30" rule all the time." I agree! Rod Stewart's layout comes to mind. Also, the Gorre and Daphitid (sp?) had some reach issues if I recall. What about that massive display in Germany with an airport and all?
In the small print on the lower left the track plan of Stewart's layout in the Feb 2014 MR, it says "Note: Access hatches not shown". I know John Allen had several access hatches, including one under one large city where basically an entire city block of buildings lifted straight up. I imagine the one in Germany has similary cleverly hidden hatches.
I think the "30 inch rule" goes back to Bill MacClanahan or John Armstrong, and their scenery and track planning books. It's basically just saying that for the average guy, reaching anything over 30" away can be tough. Note too it's primarily talking about track, not scenery or buildings. The need to rerail a freight car is going to come up more often than the need to fix a tree that fell over, or a figure that fell over in a city scene.