Going way back to Athearn BB days, there were a number of diesels, both A and B units, that were available as either powered or dummy units. I liked dummy units because even though it was unlikely you would ever need more than two powered units, dummies allowed you to have a more prototypical looking lashup without the expense of three or four powered units. I had Athearn F7 dummies, both As and Bs and had a GP7 dummy B unit. Now, hardly anyone offers dummies any more. I did see one in a catalog a few weeks ago but that seems to be an exception. Most of what I see offered today is powered units only. Is this because manufacturers just don't make much money off dummies or they figure that our consists are so short people are unlikely to want more than two units on the front end so why not power them both.
I came into the hobby only a few years ago so I guess the dummy units were long gone by then but if I was to take a guess I suspect it is due to DCC, where you can speed match and consist with relative ease.
There were multiple reasons for 'dummy' units:
The last two items have largely been made obsolete by DCC. With $30-40 freight cars and $300 engines, I suspect that a 'dummy' engine will be at least $100. The DC only engines are in the $120 and up range already.
Jim
Modeling BNSF and Milwaukee Road in SW Wisconsin
I spoke to a couple manufacturers once regarding this. There really wouldn't be much price difference between a powered engine and a dummy today. The only thing different from a manufacturing point would the the lack of a motor, drive shafts and truck gears - some of the cheapest components.
Most of the money is in the shells and chassis with all those details everyone loves so much. From a cost standpoint for the manufacturer, a dummy would be saving $10 or less in parts at the manufacturer level. So a dummy engine built to today's standards would only be about $20 less than a powered one (maybe a bit less if you toss out the lights) and it just doesn't make financial sense from a marketing standpoint.
Mark.
¡ uʍop ǝpısdn sı ǝɹnʇɐuƃıs ʎɯ 'dlǝɥ
Here is another reason:
Back in the day, you could only run a couple of BB units on a single power pack. So, if you wanted an ABBA set, you needed a couple of dummies to keep the amp draw down.
After can motors came in vogue, you could run 5-6 can motor equipped locos with the same pack.
Mark R. I spoke to a couple manufacturers once regarding this. There really wouldn't be much price difference between a powered engine and a dummy today. The only thing different from a manufacturing point would the the lack of a motor, drive shafts and truck gears - some of the cheapest components.
You've got it in one.
I trust this post won't get deleted like the last time I mentioned costs in China as I feel modellers have a right to know this stuff.
Dummies cost us $6 less than powered units - just the cost of the motor and flywheels.
When we announced the F9B locomotives, we offered dummies, figuring that the sales of the powered units would subsidize the dummies. We were wrong. All of the initial orders were for dummies and that was going to make the F9B unprofitable.
So we had to - out of the blue - announce a $40 price increase on the dummies just a few days after announcing the project. We still don't make any money on them, but at least we're not losing money on them.
That was the first and last time Rapido ever offered dummies!
-Jason
Jason Shron - President - Rapido Trains Inc. - RapidoTrains.comMy HO scale Kingston Sub layout: Facebook.com/KingstonSub
I too miss the dummies, but since I can only run one locomotive on my short trains anyway, it wouldn't matter. I haven't bought a new locomotive in years; last two were used because they were in SR green and not available new.
It's too bad, as "dummies" were often an easy, cheap way to get a decorated body you wanted. It wasn't that long ago you could get an Athearn decorated dummy, with all the handrails, window glazing, etc. for $10-15.
In my case, my layout is set to rotate between time frames over a broad period, so it would be nice to be able to have body shells to have say an NP F-unit in the 1950's era that could quickly be converted to a BN F-unit in the 1970's. A few manufacturers do sometimes have decorated shells available, but not as a standard thing.
Question (pardon me if it seems rather elementary), but how difficult would it be to make your own dummy? I ask because my Son operates in N scale on DC and he has asked if we could get some unpowered locomotives for him to make an ABBA consist for his Santa Fe Super Chief (he has a powered F3A and B from Kato but would like another A and B but just doesn't have the power in his DC power pack to operate four powered locomotives). I often see damaged or fixeruppers listed on EvilBay or at train shows for fairly cheap and often wondered what it would take to simply convert them to dummy's?
Happy Modeling All!
Don.
"Ladies and gentlemen, I have some good news and some bad news. The bad news is that both engines have failed, and we will be stuck here for some time. The good news is that you decided to take the train and not fly."
Yea, Redd Foxx on Sanford & Son was always mentioning something about a big dummy he had...
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
EMD.Don Question (pardon me if it seems rather elementary), but how difficult would it be to make your own dummy? I ask because my Son operates in N scale on DC and he has asked if we could get some unpowered locomotives for him to make an ABBA consist for his Santa Fe Super Chief (he has a powered F3A and B from Kato but would like another A and B but just doesn't have the power in his DC power pack to operate four powered locomotives). I often see damaged or fixeruppers listed on EvilBay or at train shows for fairly cheap and often wondered what it would take to simply convert them to dummy's? Happy Modeling All! Don.
You could do that but it could get expensive. I don't know what locos cost in N scale but I'm in HO. When my diesel fleet was mostly Athearn BB, a powered unit was around $30 and I think you could get a dummy for around $20 (1980s dollars). Now I am running high end DCC locos with sound and they typically run in the $250-$300 range. A dummy of course wouldn't need to have DCC or sound, but even a DC version of the same loco would probably be about $150. You could go to a lower end loco to convert to dummies but you would need to find one in the same roadname and preferably the same paint scheme and even then, the color shades might not match. I know its unlikely to happen, but I wish buying a factory made dummy was still an option.
One other advantage of dummies I didn't mention in the OP was you didn't have to worry about direction or polarity. In a DC layout, if you had an A-A or an A-B-A lashup, you had a problem if both A units were powered since typically the cab would be on opposite ends which means the locos would want to go in different directions. If you wanted that kind of lashup, you would need to rewire one of the A-units. With DCC of course, that isn't a problem.
I never fund a solid reason for buying a dummy since they have limited use..I always preferred the power units since I could easily put 'em to work without the need of a second unit to pull them..
I still have a BB "super power" C&O A-B-A power set in one of my storage totes.I ought to get those engines out ad use 'em during the fair.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
jecorbettOne other advantage of dummies I didn't mention in the OP was you didn't have to worry about direction or polarity. In a DC layout, if you had an A-A or an A-B-A lashup, you had a problem if both A units were powered since typically the cab would be on opposite ends which means the locos would want to go in different directions.
That is not true unless one of the A units was wired incorrectly in the first place. Back-to-back DC powered A units move in the same direction when DC is applied to the rails per NMRA Standard S-9.
http://www.nmra.org/standards/sandrp/s-9.html
alco_fan jecorbett One other advantage of dummies I didn't mention in the OP was you didn't have to worry about direction or polarity. In a DC layout, if you had an A-A or an A-B-A lashup, you had a problem if both A units were powered since typically the cab would be on opposite ends which means the locos would want to go in different directions. That is not true unless one of the A units was wired incorrectly in the first place. Back-to-back DC powered A units move in the same direction when DC is applied to the rails per NMRA Standard S-9. http://www.nmra.org/standards/sandrp/s-9.html
jecorbett One other advantage of dummies I didn't mention in the OP was you didn't have to worry about direction or polarity. In a DC layout, if you had an A-A or an A-B-A lashup, you had a problem if both A units were powered since typically the cab would be on opposite ends which means the locos would want to go in different directions.
You are correct of course. A complete brain cramp by me.
I've been away from DC too long. What I said would be true of a DCC engine unless it was MUed to the lead engine.
Surprisingly...Bowser still produces dummies in a few of their models. F's definitely...not sure about anything else. Till November I had a local source for surplus BB and got several dummies for $3 each and powered them myself for around $45 each.
Mark H
Modeling in HO...Reading and Conrail together in an alternate history.
All the reasons given above are probably correct. But you can still find dummies out there, I was in Phoenix this last weekend and went to a local hobby shop (amazing that there's still one alive and kicking) and he had several used ones on the shelves for sale. But I have found them in yard sales and the flea markets from time to time, however they are usually the cheap toy stuff. Once in aawhile you will get lucky and find a good one but not very often. With a little.bit of modelers licence and sme skill you can make some of the TOY stuff look pretty good .
Keep it on the high shiny stuff Neil
Here are a few thoughts from someone who was behind the counter of a hobby shop or two back in the days when dummy locos were still common.
First off, it did not have anything to do with being able to run multiple powered units in DC, other than the power pack limitations of the most basic train sets. Model railroaders with larger layouts have been buying or building power supplies that will run 4 unit lash ups of Athearn Blue Box locos long before I got into this hobby in 1968.
And it has even less to do with any ablity of those locos to run well together on DC. As I have explained many times on this forum, despite propaganda to the contrary, DC locos of the same brand and type run fine together, and many that are not the same brand and type can also be run MU'd or "double headed".
But, back then, if your Athearn super weighted geared F7 would haul 40 cars - which they will, and your layout only allowed you 25 car trains, but you wanted the AA or ABA look, why spend the money - an Athearn F7 dummy was only $9.95 at the time when the super geared version was $29.00?
Especially if you never really planned to run them any other way.
But even back then, lots of "more serious" modelers, with larger layouts had no use for dummys and ran all powered ABBA sets, or groups of 3-4 GP7's, or whatever with no problems. I still do - in DC - imagine that?
I have not owned a dummy loco since about 1975, can't imagine why I would want one. I think in addition to the cost issues Jason and other pointed out, there is no longer any market - or - maybe there is no market because of the cost issues?
Sheldon
Rapido...all of the initial orders were for dummies and that was going to make the F9B unprofitable.
SP&S modeler, 1960's give or take a decade or two for some equipment.
http://www.youtube.com/user/SGTDUPREY?feature=guide
Gary DuPrey
N scale model railroader
I have a few dummys from the old BB days which i'm going to use on my new dcc layout. I'm also converting my old BB DC locomotives to dummys. My plan is to set them in the yard near the locomotive repair facility.
The only dummies I have are som stewart F-units. I think 3 powered with added weight will be sufficient to pull most trains I can run. lol
I do like having the dummy F-units cause I can stick a really big speaker in it and it has pick-ups. I could wire them all together if I wanted to as well.
Vincent
Wants: 1. high-quality, sound equipped, SD40-2s, C636s, C30-7s, and F-units in BN. As for ones that don't cost an arm and a leg, that's out of the question....
2. An end to the limited-production and other crap that makes models harder to get and more expensive.
Why dummies? Well, I have another thought about that. Often you will see a locomotive somewhere in the consist of a train (often somewhere near the middle) that is just being transferred. A dummy would be a perfect excuse to add that "transfer" locomotive to a trani's consist. It would also add just another interesting move within operations as well; switching that locomotive out of the consist and moving it to the engine facility when it gets to its destination.
E-L man tomOften you will see a locomotive somewhere in the consist of a train (often somewhere near the middle) that is just being transferred.
I thought the reason that was done was for "distributed braking" or something like that.
Bruce
That's not a "transfer", 99 times out of 100 that locomotive is distributed power, set in the middle of the train to ease coupler forces, among other things.
Burlington Northern #24 EMD.Don Question (pardon me if it seems rather elementary), but how difficult would it be to make your own dummy? I ask because my Son operates in N scale on DC and he has asked if we could get some unpowered locomotives for him to make an ABBA consist for his Santa Fe Super Chief (he has a powered F3A and B from Kato but would like another A and B but just doesn't have the power in his DC power pack to operate four powered locomotives). I often see damaged or fixeruppers listed on EvilBay or at train shows for fairly cheap and often wondered what it would take to simply convert them to dummy's? Happy Modeling All! Don. you'd have to pull the motor and the worm gears. Might I inquire what powerpack your son is using?
you'd have to pull the motor and the worm gears. Might I inquire what powerpack your son is using?
He is using one of my older Tech 4 200's from when I ran DC on my HO layout (since switched to DCC). It works like a charm with two Kato F3's pulling his 8 car Kato Super Chief, but begins to waiver in performance with three powered Kato F3's and drops off significantly with four. I know that a newer power pack would probably cure this, but it's just not in the cards right now. That's why I figured a couple dummy's would do the trick. I have seen fix-er-upper Kato's for between $15 and $30ish that have motor issues. So I was just curious to see how much work it would be to buy a couple and scrap the internal workings and use them as dummy's. But...upon further reflection after reading this thread, I may be better suited to simply save up for the newer controller for him. Thanks for the input though...always appreciated !
Happy modeling!
EMD.Don Burlington Northern #24 EMD.Don Question (pardon me if it seems rather elementary), but how difficult would it be to make your own dummy? I ask because my Son operates in N scale on DC and he has asked if we could get some unpowered locomotives for him to make an ABBA consist for his Santa Fe Super Chief (he has a powered F3A and B from Kato but would like another A and B but just doesn't have the power in his DC power pack to operate four powered locomotives). I often see damaged or fixeruppers listed on EvilBay or at train shows for fairly cheap and often wondered what it would take to simply convert them to dummy's? Happy Modeling All! Don. you'd have to pull the motor and the worm gears. Might I inquire what powerpack your son is using? He is using one of my older Tech 4 200's from when I ran DC on my HO layout (since switched to DCC). It works like a charm with two Kato F3's pulling his 8 car Kato Super Chief, but begins to waiver in performance with three powered Kato F3's and drops off significantly with four. I know that a newer power pack would probably cure this, but it's just not in the cards right now. That's why I figured a couple dummy's would do the trick. I have seen fix-er-upper Kato's for between $15 and $30ish that have motor issues. So I was just curious to see how much work it would be to buy a couple and scrap the internal workings and use them as dummy's. But...upon further reflection after reading this thread, I may be better suited to simply save up for the newer controller for him. Thanks for the input though...always appreciated ! Happy modeling! Don.
Burlington Northern #24 He hasn't Nfected you yet?
He hasn't Nfected you yet?
I stand corrected. That is the more plausable explanation for the locomotive in the middle. The switching move to the engine facility is still not out of the question. If the unit is used for power distribution, however, on the prototype it could move on its own power. So much for that, I suppose.
Soo Line fanBack in the day, you could only run a couple of BB units on a single power pack. So, if you wanted an ABBA set, you needed a couple of dummies to keep the amp draw down.
Jim,MRC's "Golden Throttle Pack" could handle up to 5 Athearn locomotives.It was the power pack to have in the 60s.
EMD.Don Burlington Northern #24 He hasn't Nfected you yet? LOL! To be completely honest, I have taken a shine to these new N scale locomotives. My Son's Kato F units are very sweet, and his growing collection of Kato SD70ACe's in the Norfolk Southen heritage schemes are top-notch. The Kato Super Chief passenger cars have fantastic detail. In fact, I have found the level of detail on these newer N scale locomotives and rolling stock to be outstanding. Performance wise, smooth, quiet, reliable, stout. N scale has come a long way over the years . I am currently working on building a Canadian Pacific SD40-2F "Red Barn" using a Kato SD40-2 mid-production internal workings/undercarriage and Kaslo shops shell/exterior parts. Slow going but enjoyable...which is the point right. Happy modeling! Don.