Where are we heading?

[richhotrain]

ONR FAN

 

Like I've already said Rich, when you guys do that it's like the poster is being spanked for asking.  It turns new people off the forum when they ask a simple question and get the HERE WE GO AGAIN post. 

 

ONR, go back and reply my initial reply to the OP which was the 3rd reply on this thread.

I never said Here We Go Again or anything like that.

The reason that you continue to disparage me is because I responded to a reply that you made raising the issue of "old timers" saying Here We Go Again.  You started all of this fuss, but now you are blaming it on others.

Rich

[richhotrain]

ONR FAN

Just an observation. You long time forum members are constantly bringing up that threads like these cause grief on the forum. Sure they can but so far the posts have been informative. The only people complaining are the long time members who are on this forum everyday. Don't forget that not everyone has the time to be here everyday. I'm lucky if I have the time to surf the forum once every few weeks. Between running a business, the house, the wife and kids there really isn't much time left. Maybe easy up on the HERE WE GO AGAIN type posts? Not everyone was here the last time a thread like this was brought up.

 

This is where it all started, ONR.

[SooLine720]

Yes, I would also say the hobby is declining. There aren't many teens in this hobby. But for more reasons than one can figure.

Whether a kid stays interested depends on other people. Basically saying, a lot of teens THINK it's "uncool" and would rather spend a day on the cell phone, or playing Call of Duty,  than a day building a layout. Of course, not many kids actually give the hobby a chance. Of course I think the hobby is a great one that is very interesting but some people don't, not trying to be negative. Another reason not many kids are in this hobby is because of "bullying." Though I'm not a victim of this, some schools have VERY mean people that like to harrass others because of their hobby. This accounts for the decline of kids. Like I mentioned before, these "bullies" never gave it a chance. They don't realise this is a great hobby that is productive and enjoyable. It is a scary reality that some people don't realise. I'm currently in high school and most of my friends know about my hobby and don't mind it. Sometimes the joke but it's never a big deal. But harrassment should NOT prevent you from enjoying a great hobby. Another reason for the lack of younger model railroaders is the cost of model railroading. The hobby is quite expensive not all people can get a magnificant layout, with lots of rolling stock. I hope this helps, and for all the younger folks that like model railroading, DON'T let other people influence your hobby. I also hope everyone knows that I'm not trying to be negative, I'm just informing you guys about this information.

[ATLANTIC CENTRAL]

SooLine720

Yes, I would also say the hobby is declining. There aren't many teens in this hobby. But for more reasons than one can figure.

 

Every survey, in any place in time, that has ever been done, puts the average age of model railroaders somewhere between 34 and 44.

When I was a teen (and even preteen) model railroader back in the dark ages of the late 1960's and early 1970's it was not a poplular hobby amoung young people. I attended a high school in an upper middle class area, with over 3000 students and I assure you I knew enough of them to know there was only about a dozen of us interested in model trains.

Again, having worked in a hobby shop from age 14 until age 23, I'm not buying the "young people are future of the hobby" thing. Yes, I worked in the local hobby shop all through my high school years - I knew who at school playe with trains and who did not.

But as explained earlier, my version of the hobby is alive and well here and is my only concern.

Sheldon

[Jimmy_Braum]

I can agree with the bullying factor hurts some people.  I took a ton of grief for being a model railroader as a teenager, but I always had the model railroad club I belong to to look foward to make that week better. 

[widetrack]

People, it is a hobby, it is meant to be fun, if you are not having fun then you can always find another hobby thats more to your liking, thats one of the nice things about a hobby. As for whether or not it is dying out I would have to say no, all hobbies go thru similar cycles, I used to fly RC planes, got out of it because it became to expensive for my wallet at the time (crashing to many of the dang things). Some think that the hobby is in decline, others see it as growing, I believe that it is holding its own pretty good right now but I think that it is probably going to lose a lot of people in the next several years, mostly in the way of those few remaining LHS's. This will be in large part due to the increasing number of those buying online. its unfortunate but that is in a way the only way to get some things now.

There is a smaller number of people getting into the hobby, I believe this is because of the rise in technology of video games. Why would any young kid want to PLAY with TOY TRAINS when he can spend the entire weekend saving Zelda? I think that some of those in the younger generation will come around, those with a bent for trains anyway, The hobby will survive, it has been in a decline before and will probably see it again but it will recover.  Most people simply dont have the extra money for things now that they did before, I spent this last weekend in Phoenix visiting my brother there and we took a ride to a LHS/club layout, there was a large amount of older stuff there for sale. Some of it was what I would call Toy stuff but there was a large amount of very good quality older stuff to be had and the price was very reasonable on all of it.

I purchased two early 80's? roundhouse locomotive kits, And had a good long chat with the store owner and several other customers about just this same topic. We all agreed that this hobby will recover, it will take time but it will happen. Its important to keep in mind people that time always changes things, a lot has changed since I first got into this hobby and I suspect that a lot more will change by the time I leave it, but there will always be those who just like to play with trains.                       

Neil

[mlehman]

I gonna agree with Sheldon here. How to engage young people in the hobby has always been a challenge. I started young (13 yo), but like many fell away once I got out of school and started working. Lots of distractions for a young person, no matter their era or location. By the time I was 25, though, I was already starting to armchair things again and just over 30 when I made a commitment to narrowgauge and began working on the module that was the first piece of my current layout.

That said, the challenge of recruiting young people remains. Encourage them, invite them to ops sessions, give them old gear no longer needed that might help their porjects along. Don't tell them what or how to model, they'll figure that out, but try to give them the space and resources to support their efforts.

Not all clubs welcomed youngsters even back in the day, but the shrinking club scene is probably part of the cause here. While clubs often serve populations with limited space for home layouts, they also were great opportunities for young people to learn with a relatively low bar to entry that needs crossed -- then one enjoyed the privilege of access to a large layout beyond the means of most teenagers.With clubs few and far between or which have converted to modules and thus have no permanent home, it's that much harder for young people to participate unless special accomodations are made for their presence.

[BRAKIE]

mlehman

Not all clubs welcomed youngsters even back in the day, but the shrinking club scene is probably part of the cause here

Mike,I agree..The Bucyrus club has two or three father/son(s) members.

I know of a young lad way back in the 60s that visited the Columbus HO club faithfully every second Tuesday (that was visitors night) of the month and after awhile they allowed this young lad to run trains across the point to point layout..This went on for several months..One night the young lad was offered a membership and he joined at the age of 15 instead of the required age of 16.

I don't think clubs will do that today since most require a prospective member to be 18 and I heard of one club you had to be 21 for "insurance reasons"..

 

BTW..That young lad was me.

[NP2626]

Where are we heading?  It is impossible to say.  Certainly the modeling (Model Building) part of hobbies in general seems to be on the decline.  This "FACT" alone doesn't give me a very good outlook towards the future.  Still, my abilities to predict the future have been so dismall that what I think is going to happen and what actually does happen, have been shown to consistantly be two different things.

The reality for me is, as long as I can enjoy the hobby the way I want to enjoy it for the short amount of time I have left to enjoy it, I don't give a dang about the future as it will be the way those people in the future, choose to enjoy it. 

[zstripe]

Where are WE Heading? Seeing as how, I don't have a mouse in my pocket. I can only speak for myself. And the principle behind that is quite simple. Either lead follow, or get the heck out of the way. That being said, I was never much a follower. I try to make the correct decisions, based on that, and a HOBBY is secondary to that belief. Whether it is dying or not, is beyond my control, so why waste my time talking about it. Growing up in the streets of Chicago, or any big city for that matter, tends to make one tuff and I'm glad for that, for years later, I found myself in a Foreign country, fighting for something, I did not know that much about, no Bullys, but people that are trying to kill me, so reality sets in and that is self-preservation and that is what I believed in, not a hobby.

I will however agree with SHELDON'S reply and some other's.

Frank,striped

[Jimmy_Braum]

The club I belong to has two memberships, regular (18) and junior (10-1. With an adult willing to join). I was an exception to this. I joined at 10 and was sponsored by a clubmember. Here I am now, 22 and still a member. 

[John Busby]

Hi Harold A

I think the hobby is dying a slow death.

We will end up like Meccano a historical curiosity we are from an age when every boy wanted to be the driver of what ever the flash named express train was that captured the nation we where born in was. They where the great men of our child hood, and came with the smell of smoke and something akin to baby oil, the thrashing of coupling rods as they hurtled along steel rails at high speed. To take us to places real and imagined.

Trains of today don't offer that any more its all harsh reality and clean lines, and may places you will wait a long time before they ever see a train again if they ever do. The evedence in many places that a railway even existed has gone under concrete and tarmac. 

In some ways cost is a factor I think this because a lot of the buildings I see advertised are now pre built and I think quite expencive the supply of Kits my prefered option it is cheaper and leaves me to have some input into the result and I can bash them if I choose.

Analogue locomotives my prefered option are getting harder to find new I prefer new inspite of cost but they are cheaper by a long way when compared to digital locomotives, that because of a control option I chose years ago

I literaly cannot use them it will blow part of my control system that will shut the lot down.

the model press seem to be printing less how to articals

I often wonder if this is because the numbers that can actualy build something are slowly going the way of the dinosaurs.

The death of local hobby shops is not helping these where allways a good place to get advice and what you needed at the same time.

We are in an age where it is wanted now and the digital entertainment options are many and varied and the young don't seem to want to make any thing any more.

None of us will ever see the real NX01 Enterprise built because come the right century there will not be any one left who can build anything.

I noticed some one mention all the wonderfull fiddly bits that break on current models as a plus

While not wanting to go back to the toy town era I see it as a minus because it has got too fragile and you become to scared to use the model as the manufacturere intended

If we could encourage more make it practical skills and less computor game couch potatoe we might have a chance.

But it's the digital age so no chance.

Time for this old dinosaur to head for the swamp.

regards John

[Steven Otte]

Talking about the topic is fine. Talking about talking about the topic (bemoaning what others have said, what you expect they're going to say, or even the fact that the question has been asked) is a bit too meta. Keep it civil and on-topic, please.

[mlehman]

BRAKIE

I don't think clubs will do that today since most require a prospective member to be 18 and I heard of one club you had to be 21 for "insurance reasons"..

Larry,

Having worked in non-profit adminstration, when there's discussion of insurance and minors, it's often about the fact that there are less than nice people in the world and insurance companies typically charge extra for coverage of organizations where minors and adults participate together. Not that such things didn't occur in the past, it's just the sort of issue that raises costs, as well as awareness, nowadays.

That said, model railroading is hardly alone in needing to work around this problem. That's one reason why I mentioned that it does take extra effort to offer the opportunity for young people to participate in the hobby. I certainly admire your own outreach efforts at the county fair to engage with young folks, as that's an excellent way to do something about the future, rather than express anxiety that it's a sign the hobby is on death's door. No, like most things in life model railroading is what you make of it yourself -- for yourself and for others.

[superbe]

I have not read most of the threads.

I see the long term future of model railroading as dim. This is based on what I have obseved but may not be factual.

When I joined the forums 6 years ago there seemed to be a lot more newbies loging in and asking basic questions. IMO there are less and less each year.

To me this is an indcation of where this hobby is headed.

Just my    

Bob

[mlehman]

superbe

When I joined the forums 6 years ago there seemed to be a lot more newbies loging in and asking basic questions. IMO there are less and less each year.

Entirely possible, but I can't say I've noticed much difference.

On the other hand, social media has exploded in that time span. I'm certain a lot of the younger crowd is there, where we don't see it. At least I don't, as I avoid socila media like the plague. But factor that into the complex and changing world of model railroading in some form. A lot of newcomers may never bother with the forums except to Google what they need, when they need it. Just as with written mail, things like forums and email have life cycles -- and people who stick with them, rather than change.

Glad I'm not getting paid to worry about accessing those new demograhics. I much prefer hanging here with the rest of the oldtimers and anyone new who'd like to participate. This has actually been a really good thread, minus a few rough edges, in laying out a lot of different ideas useful in thinking about what we can do to encoruage a healthy hobby.

[Rastafarr]

I'd love to teach people that ISLs and microlayouts can be a blast. Living spaces are smaller and space is at a premium compared to thirty or forty years ago; not a lot of youngsters have space for a big (or even medium) sized layout.

Would it not be better to start a newbie with an 18" by 36" HO or N switching layout? Something that can be stuffed in a corner? That teaches that there's more to this hobby than simple continuous running around a loop of track?

[EMD.Don]

People still build ships in a bottle, wooden sailing ship modeling is healthy, plastic models of aircraft, cars, armor, ships, sci-fi etc are still being bought and built. To the same extent as they were in the past? I don't know but probably not. But the fact that these hobbies are still being enjoyed leads me to believe model railroading will still be around in some shape or form for long after all of us have powered our layouts down for the last time. I am optimistic. As others have already pointed out, our hobby is extremely diverse. Model railroading as you and I individually/personally view it/enjoy it may not be the same 50 years or so from now. But a version of model railroading will still be here. I look at my young Son who loves trains, both real and model, and frankly I am excited for what his generation will have available to them that I don't and likely won't. Look at the innovative growth many of us have see and I see no reason for it to stop. Slow...perhaps...stop...no I don't believe so. So, I guess I don't see the "death of model railroading" as being one of the four horses of the apocalypse. Optimism folks. The glass is half full to me...and I really don't think said glass has ever honestly been full in model railroading history. Enjoy...have fun...talk to those who are interested in listening and/or learning...but keep calm and model on folks

Happy modeling!

Don

[tstage]

Where are we heading?  Pro-ba-bly to page 5.  Just sayin...

[mlehman]

Rastafarr

I'd love to teach people that ISLs and microlayouts can be a blast. Living spaces are smaller and space is at a premium compared to thirty or forty years ago; not a lot of youngsters have space for a big (or even medium) sized layout.

Would it not be better to start a newbie with an 18" by 36" HO or N switching layout? Something that can be stuffed in a corner? That teaches that there's more to this hobby than simple continuous running around a loop of track?

 

That is a really good idea, as that is certainly the first barrier anyone faces in this hobby beyond building kits -- Where do I put a layout?

In fact, the was a recent discussion on what next year's MR project layout will be. Maybe they should take a good stab at something that's clearly smaller than a 4x8. Many look down on the 4x8 as not big enough to be a statisfying layout, when the fact is that layouts much smaller than that can be quite popular. They're certainly a more accessible way into the hobby than the layouts we usually see in MR and the other mags.

[bigpianoguy]

"Where are we heading?  Pro-ba-bly to page 5.  Just sayin..."

Wow, tstage, you can, like, see the future. I never thought it would go this far. They should, like, you know, hire you as a staff writer or something...dang, so close...

[BRAKIE]

mlehman

 

BRAKIE

I don't think clubs will do that today since most require a prospective member to be 18 and I heard of one club you had to be 21 for "insurance reasons"..

 

 

Larry,

Having worked in non-profit adminstration, when there's discussion of insurance and minors, it's often about the fact that there are less than nice people in the world and insurance companies typically charge extra for coverage of organizations where minors and adults participate together. Not that such things didn't occur in the past, it's just the sort of issue that raises costs, as well as awareness, nowadays.

That said, model railroading is hardly alone in needing to work around this problem. That's one reason why I mentioned that it does take extra effort to offer the opportunity for young people to participate in the hobby. I certainly admire your own outreach efforts at the county fair to engage with young folks, as that's an excellent way to do something about the future, rather than express anxiety that it's a sign the hobby is on death's door. No, like most things in life model railroading is what you make of it yourself -- for yourself and for others.

 

Mike,I know of one club that allows 16 year olds to join but,a parent must be present during the club meeting and the student members have guide lines to follow like no operating power tools,wiring and other safety type rules..

There has to be a workable soultion where its a win-win for all including the insurance company.

[mlehman]

BRAKIE

Mike,I know of one club that allows 16 year olds to join but,a parent must be present during the club meeting and the student members have guide lines to follow like no operating power tools,wiring and other safety type rules.. There has to be a workable soultion where its a win-win for all including the insurance company.

Larry,

I agree. The solution you mentioned is one.

The problem is some folks just don't want to go that extra mile or have to worry about special coverage beyond if the building catches on fire. In my own experience, the organization I work with has outreach to all ages as a specific part of our mission, so that helps when someone says something is inconvenient or requires a little extra effort.

That's why outreach work like yours is so vital. As adults, we have to make that happen or we risk letting the future slip away from us.

[Greybeard]

As a newbie to the group, not to the hobby, my input may or may not be appreciated.  Here goes anyhow.

My interests are in steam, logging, which pretty much limits my time frame. With this in mind,

There is a local club, but their interest is in the town I live in, modern era.  DCC only, or, the door is slammed to me.  No big deal, I can live with that.  Most of my loco's were purchased before DCC became the god of control systems.  That's not a complaint, just the facts.

As with many other hobbies, my first purchases, some 40 years ago, were impulse, not reasoned, meaning I have a lot of stuff I'll never use.  It was only after I had my first "layout" that I began to think about what I wanted it to be and how to go about making it reality.

I don't live in a mountainous area, almost flatland here, and neither the east or west coast railroads have any appeal to me, not when I live within half an hours drive from Milwaukee.  Most of the trackage that was existent when I was a kid is gone, the right of way is now bike trails.  I don't have a lot but memories to go on, but I can remember seeing steam daily on the branch running through my home town.

I'm far from being a kid now, and with failing eyesight, detailing and repainting cars for the RR I want to be the main line is out of the question. 

Retired, fixed income, and more than 40 loco's, DCC is out of the question for purely financial reasons.  Sound means nothing to me, I like quiet.  Nor do I enjoy complexity, the KISS principal still works very well.  I have a 12 volt supply, ten amps capability, and each throttle costs me less than ten bucks, ten amps can run a lot of trains. 

I don't have unlimited room, at the most a 5 by 9 without encroaching too much on my living area is about it. 

Now for my complaints, and it's with the manufacturers.  Any given manufacturer produces either easterm or western railroads, as if the center of the country didn't exist.  I will never see a UP or NYC loco in this area, period.  CHoices for those that I would see or would have seen in the past are very few, extremely limited.  I was fortunate to pick up a Fox Valley Hiawatha loco, before the retailer I use ran out of them.  I was also fortunate to pick up a complete 8 car Milwaukee road passenger set, before IHC decided to let them die.  I also have the same set in C&NW, and a Hudson to pull it.  Not available now, at least not in the heavyweight cars.  IHC has a sawmill kit on their website, my guess is it's something out of stock and they have no intention of restocking, as the order I sent over a month ago has not been shipped.  Nor has my CC been charged.

My equipment has been dormant in my attic for some years, maybe fifteen, but bringing it down has only shown me that what I need to complete a layout has slowly disappeared.  I can scratch the buildings I need, maybe even do some weathering on them, but the materials I need for that are becoming hard to find.  Plastic is available, but I don't work in plastic.  I have a good stock of scribed wood, but when that's gone, I have no assurance another supply will be available. 

The original question, I can't answer.  Costs are running amok, the disdain for pure DC layouts growing, but that's just the state at this time.  Using IHC loco's, code 100 is about the only option I have, I can live with that.  Clubs respond to their members, manufacturers respond to the market, where it's leading, I don't know.  Nobody does.

Rich.

[MisterBeasley]

When I returned to the hobby about 8 years ago, I had been spending most of my free time playing games in front of a computer screen.  I discovered, somewhat to my surprise, the joy of doing something physical, making real things with my hands instead of images on a screen, and actually getting stuff like paint and plaster on my fingers.

But, even though everyone who sees my layout seems pretty impressed, I don't think I've gotten anyone to seriously consider joining the hobby.  I guess it's not contagious.

[Geared Steam]

I thought it had already died? At least that's what a post back in 2005 had said...

I hadn't really noticed since I have all the locos. cars, kits I can use. 

[hellwarrior]

What can we do if we don't want this hobby to disappear?  Do you know any actions that should help to attract younger audience to this hobby?

[Soo Line fan]

Maybe buy a cell phone jammer?

[Rastafarr]

hellwarrior

What can we do if we don't want this hobby to disappear?  Do you know any actions that should help to attract younger audience to this hobby?

 

HW, people have been howling that this hobby is dying since the sixties; the complaint is nothing new and has very little substance behind it. Every hobby's taken a blow in the last few years -- recession and all that jazz -- but the sheer profusion of train stuff available for purchase is copious evidence that things are gonna be just fine.

Changing, yes; dying, no.

[crhostler61]

Hello Everyone,

Initially I hadn't intended on getting into this thread...but it has reached a point where I feel I need to.

I hope what I have to say in this post might...I say might, help calm some fears and debates about the original idea in the thread.

First and foremost...I am not promoting or supporting my employer...they don't deserve it. 

I work for Amazon.com at their 900,000 sq ft sortable fulfillment center in northern Nevada. In any given week I can see directly/physically into as many as 100,000 customer orders...if I chose, and only ever knowing who they go to when I problem solve orders...a very rare thing. I began to see model railroading appear about 9 years ago. I see many 'model hobby' orders. Trains, cars, planes, rockets, ships, radio control, doll houses, etc. I see no more or less now than I did 9 years ago. The only major increases I've seen in anything is...consumer electronics and 'adult' toys...go figure. 

I think our hobby has just changed with the times, as with so...so many other things. I see this regularly being in online retail. 

Manufacturers needed to adjust their production according to consumers wants and needs. And as a result we become frustrated with the changes. I've been in the hobby for more than 40 years and have witness increadible change. Manufactures have come and gone, others absorbed by once competitors. Some went away because they couldn't compete. Some like Athearn have changed their manufacturing practices to suit the changes...RTR over BB.

Our LHS...are victims of change. Like the many businesses that have disappeared as a result of my employer. Unless they are resilient and diverse, but also in a good location they are giving way to the large online retailers who can sell for less and in greater volume.

(Am I really saying anything here that we don't already know?)

Personally...I think model railroading, like the other 'model hobbies' has a future as it has had...driven by those who enjoy it.

Next time the kids squawk that they want a new Xbox, get them a DCC/sound equipped SD70ACE or a Big Boy that just happens to be numbered 4014.   L...O...L!

Okay...I said what I wanted to say. I'll put on the kevlar vest and take the shots if anyone wants.

Have a good one

Mark Hoffman