Hey gang. A couple of weeks ago I opened a topic about my new Canadian National Mikado that I had just finished working on when one of our members (CNCharlie) commended me on a job well done but said that Canadian National never painted the smoke boxes or fire boxes on any of their locomotives graphite silver. This has bothered me ever since then so I ask that you go out onto the web and look up Canadian National Mikado on Wikipedia and tell me what you see. This was the photo I worked from to do the work on my engine. I also found two other photos of the same engine (#3254) on other sites. I'm not trying to make CNCharlie look bad but just want it known for the record that I know what I'm talking about...
Tracklayer
Well, I looked-up Canadian National Mikado on Wikipedia and there was no picture of a CNR Mikado. Besides that, they state that the CNR "operated a few Mikados", when there were actually 466 of them in-service in 1943.
There were roads which painted those areas silver, usually using an aluminum paint, but the CNR was not among them. Graphite, while it has a silvery cast to it under some lighting conditions, is pretty-much the same colour as the lead in a pencil, which is also graphite. When graphite was applied to smokeboxes and fireboxes, it was as a powder and was mixed with linseed oil. The smokebox on the 3254 does look fairly light in the photos below (where it's not streaked with soot), but it's certainly not silver. You should bear in mind that this locomotive is restored and may have some other treatment used on those areas. I have lots of books on the CNR and don't recall seeing a photo of any of their locos with a silver firebox/smokebox, nor do I recall seeing any such thing on the ones which were running in my hometown when I was a kid.
There's a discussion in this Forum on painting graphited smokeboxes, but I can't seem to get a working link to it. The last post in it was on February 21, 2012.
Wayne
Tracklayer,
Looks like silver to me:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Steamtown_NHS_Train
Frank
Edit: sorry won't show the pic.
If it works, click on pic' for size:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_National_3254
I dunno Frank....it looks grey to me.
It's certainly different from what I recall seeing when they were still in regular service. I remember the first time I saw a photo in Trains magazine of a loco with a silver-painted smokebox (CB&Q, I think) and I remarked on how unusual it looked to my eyes.
Sorry Frank,gotta go with Wayne on this one looks dirty light gray to me too.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
Just a little info: I paint many Military figures and Armor with Citadel paint from the UK the color I use and the name on the bottle is called Boltgun Metal and it looks exactly like the color in the photo, like a dark gray silver. There is no mistaking it for black or silver.
doctorwayne I dunno Frank....it looks grey to me. It's certainly different from what I recall seeing when they were still in regular service. I remember the first time I saw a photo in Trains magazine of a loco with a silver-painted smokebox (CB&Q, I think) and I remarked on how unusual it looked to my eyes. Wayne
Here is the link.
http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/88/p/202943/2219962.aspx#2219962
Geez, I hate to agree with Frank, but I think he is correct in this case.
If it ain't silver, it sure looks silver.
Poor CN Charlie !
Rich
Alton Junction
Here is an interesting thread on painting to get the look and color of a graphite smokebox:
http://forum.atlasrr.com/forum/topic.asp?ARCHIVE=true&TOPIC_ID=42358
zstripeMilitary figures and Armor with Citadel paint from the UK the color I use and the name on the bottle is called Boltgun Metal and it looks exactly like the color in the photo, like a dark gray silver.
Frank,Sounds like a ideal color for the smoke box on a weathered locomotive..
Interesting, but I still stick with my original comments. It does look like Steamtown used a silvery colour on that smokebox so if that is the loco Tracklayer is trying to re-create then it is fine, but if it is CN practice I would stick with Dr. Wayne as his knowledge of CN steam is very great indeed.
CN Charlie
I don't mean to dis Steamtown, but they are a business operation to showcase their veteran steamer and rolling stock fleet. They don't necessary have any one steamer in the same condition or configuration in which they received it. Yes, they've improved almost all of them, thankfully, but it doesn't mean what you see today is how they operated in revenue service for CN.
Here is a coloured photo from fallenflags.org: 1956
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/cn/cn-s3209jpa.jpg
Another: Now clearly showing graphited smokebox, but south of the border
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/cn/cn-s3377jpa.jpg
Another coloured photo, this time back in Ontario, Canada, no apparent graphite
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/cn/cn-s3315jpa.jpg
A B&W back in Canada, but this time seemingly with graphited smokebox:
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/cn/cn-s3471.jpg
And as if you needed something entirely different in appearance, here's a coloured photo, in Canada, of a CNR Mike with graphited boiler and blackened smokebox:
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/cn/cn-s3503jpa.jpg
Not convinced?
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/cn/cn-s3547jpc.jpg
Did you notice the Belpaire firebox?
IOW, it depends on the light, camera position, age, place, and condition of the locomotive. In some cases, the boiler is lighter in appearance and the smoke box blackened, in others the boiler is dark and the smokebox apparently graphited in rather obvious contrast, and in others the whole shebang is black, black, black.
-Crandell
Be cautious about relying on preserved, restored, fan trip or museum steam (or other rolling stock) for indications of how it looked in service. This is particularly true for situations where they are operating the locomotive.
For example there are many photos out there of the last steam excursions on the Chicago & North Western that would give a totally misleading idea as to how the North Western painted its steam locomotives -- apparently certain fans took it on themselves to paint driver tires and running board edges with aluminum paint just before the excursions began.
There were practical reasons why some railroads used different and special paint on smokeboxes and fireboxes (in part having to do with heat damage to regular black paint) and a museum or operating line may be motivated by those practical reasons rather than historical accuracy. I cannot speak to CN or this particular engine at all, just a caution about concluding too much because of how a locomotive looks at a museum or preserved in a park currently.
Dave Nelson
CNCharlie Interesting, but I still stick with my original comments. It does look like Steamtown used a silvery colour on that smokebox so if that is the loco Tracklayer is trying to re-create then it is fine, but if it is CN practice I would stick with Dr. Wayne as his knowledge of CN steam is very great indeed. CN Charlie
Thanks guys.
A brief comment on graphited smokeboxes and fireboxes.
When freshly applied and rubbed up, graphite in linseed oil was almost as silvery as aluminum paint. That appearance would only last on the smokebox until the loco started working steam. On the firebox/mud ring it might not even last that long.
As soon as the metal got decently hot (hot enough to burn off ordinary paint) the graphite would quickly take on that pencil lead/bolt metal color.
By the end of a long, hard run the linseed oil would be well-carbonized, and the color would be a close approximation of flat black.
Back in the day, photographers (especially company photographers) would try to catch locos in fresh and clean condition. "Rid hard and put away wet," wasn't popular with publications or railway PR departments.
So, is your model loco just rolling out of the roundhouse, just leaving the yard or just short of tying up at the far end of a mountainous division? Only the engineer, Road Foreman of Engines and DS know for sure.
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964 - with full-jacketed steam, no graphite)
By the way. What was the purpose of the graphite in the first place ?... I'm sure the reason was more than to just dress the loco up for show.
Just a quick caveat about using Wikipedia to prove a point. My daughter's friend was visiting and told how he had used Wikipedia to win an argument. He went into the article, modified the entry to match his position, then used it to prove his point. Just remember, Wikipedia is only as accurate as the community that creates and monitors the topic.
Edit: I just realized this could sound snarky to the OP. I was not in any way accusing anyone of this same behavior, just pointing out that Wikipedia is not an guaranteed source of truth.
Richard
Interesting thread and no I didn't take offense at all. Heck even manufactures make mistakes. I wish Bachmann had actually looked at a few photos of CN steam before they came out with their Mogul. If they did then it wouldn't have had a bright silver smokebox and firebox. Not to mention a number used for Mountains.
BLI wasn't much better with their GTW Pacific but I was able to remedy that with a brush and some black paint.
RideOnRoad Just a quick caveat about using Wikipedia to prove a point. My daughter's friend was visiting and told how he had used Wikipedia to win an argument. He went into the article, modified the entry to match his position, then used it to prove his point. Just remember, Wikipedia is only as accurate as the community that creates and monitors the topic. Edit: I just realized this could sound snarky to the OP. I was not in any way accusing anyone of this same behavior, just pointing out that Wikipedia is not an guaranteed source of truth.
Tracklayer By the way. What was the purpose of the graphite in the first place ?... I'm sure the reason was more than to just dress the loco up for show. Tracklayer