In the current related thread about TT gauge, I got to thinking.........Who among the HO gaugers of the period that are here, abandoned HO for N gauge? I realize that few abandoned HO with the first introduction of N gauge as it was pretty much cheap junk garbage in its intial introduction. But given two or three years after its introduction, how many here in these forums left HO or any of their favorite gauges very soon after N came on the market.
I further realize that some waited 5 or 10 years to switch over, but how many leaped right in feet first? I am not talking about folks who bought their first trains in N and are still in it, either. Just the old guys who were already MRs and saw its introduction after they were established MRs.
N certainly dropped right into a niche that TT did not due to a number of reasons.
Modern man introduced N gauge about the time it invented Town Houses and the baby boomers, now young professionals, were apartment dwellers. The timing was perfect! Cramped living quarters and busy life styles saw smaller pikes look more appealing. Smaller cars were cool as the gas crunch began with 28 cent/gal gas morphing to nearly a buck a gallon. Miniaturization of every appliance, electronic item and convenience was the hot new norm of the day........ why not model trains!?
Poor TT...... After WWII, bigger was better! Bigger homes, bigger cars, bigger TV sreens. Bigger paychecks....Wow! Just give it to us bigger and better. TT?...No thanks.
How many folks liked N who were already MRs took it up and stayed with it.
(Psst...hey.... I bought two nice N sets in the 70's and put 'em on a small table but the concept was still born to my way of thinking and they are now packed away in boxes.) I never, ever left HO for real........Just a couple of one night stands with N.....A flirtation that didn't take.
Richard
If I can't fix it, I can fix it so it can't be fixed
I started modeling with N in 1979. Bought an Atlas trainset, built a small layout. never got to the ballast-scenic part. Put it away but still collected N equipment and structures. Built an HO layout for switching. Ran it for awhile and put it away and restarted with N. Went back and forth HO to N, N to HO until 1997 when I started building my present layout. Joined a club with HO and N, so now I can model and run both scales at the same time. I still collect HO to run at the club and shows.
Interesting. Not a pre-N old guy, but bounced back and forth rather constantly over these many years. Cool.
I see the need for the smaller scale as you decribe w/ so many not having the adequate space for a reasonably sized layout. N scale has come "light years" is running quality and level of detail. As I age and dexterity and eyesight diminishes, I could not work in that small a scale. I am starting to have issues just w/ HO. I still like the fine detail closer to true scale of HO over N and also do like the actual running characteristics of the larger scale.
I would be "hard Pressed" to ever consider a change unless space available were forced to a very smallish area and no club setting was close.
These sentiments would be equal even w/o the consideration of the thousands of HO pieces I already have.
Modeling B&O- Chessie Bob K. www.ssmrc.org
Yeah, I hear ya'. I am currently working what is a very long shelf style layout in HOn3 and that is a plenty small modeling effort for me!
Not a chance buster. When Sheldon put a N scale engine in his mouth on the Big Bang Theory, it sealed the deal for me
HO Rules!
Joe C
dominic c Not a chance buster. When Sheldon put a N scale engine in his mouth on the Big Bang Theory, it sealed the deal for me HO Rules! Joe C
Joe, hilarious way to put it but true for a lot of us!
According to Sheldon, he put an N "gauge" engine in his mouth! With all the accuracy they put into the physics used on the show, you'd think someone on their staff would know that HO and N are "scales" and are not referred to as gauges other than when discussing rail or wheel spacing.
Hornblower
Interesting and funny comments so far. I realize that not a lot of folks have had a chance to view this post yet, but I do hope at least one old guy changed over rapidly when N was introduced. Of course a goodly number of such folks are either dead or are so anti-computer that they are not online. I would hate to think N gauge did not impress, "up front" a single old guy here enough to change over back in the old days near its birthing. Gotta' give what few of us who are around and still working, time to get home and read the OP here.
I fear that if not one single response is in the positive, i.e.("yep, I left S scale to go to N in 1970"), then that would mean a couple of things. No one moved over to N from their introductory scale until well after N scale was "mature"....or..... No one moved over until they had to. (Moved from a big home layout into a townhouse, apartment or old folks home.) It would also point to the fact that most current N scalers are post 1970's newbies and N attracted them right off the bat and they stuck there enjoying its constant advance to a truly wonderful scale.
I'll also bet that a number of N scale originals are now in other gauges as their skill levels improved and their nerves and muscle/hand-eye coordination deteriorated. Remember those who were 14 and got into N scale in the early 1970's would all be in their mid to late 50's now! Wow, I suddenly feel really old having built my first little HO layout in 1959.
Never model something small enough your dog can swallow
I've bounced in the past between the two, but 10 years ago I went G, and have never looked back.
Have fun with your trains
Started in S (5 years old) then to HO (11 years old). My last layout before going into the army (drafted in 1968) was HOn2-1/2
I bought my first N scale in 1968. Atlas E8 and some freight cars. Had a small unscenicked layout which I stored in an extra locker in my barracks at Ft Bliss Texas. During an inspection (during which I was not present) an officer ordered it thrown away, but the Sargent saved it for me.
Have beem primairly N ever since although I play around some with O and On30.
I tried to sell my two cents worth, but no one would give me a plug nickel for it.
I don't have a leg to stand on.
I briefly dabbled in HOn2 1/2 (or HOn30 as some insist) so I was sort of there, in that I was buying N gauge track. I didn't put the trains in my mouth even though they could be said to be N gauge.
My motivation was that AHM was giving up on their line and was all but giving the trains away -- a complete set of 0-4-0, cars, and an oval of track was $4.98 or some such. They were fun but I never really developed the interest. Now that those trains have been reintroduced with improved drives but at much higher prices, I do look at them and think what I could do with a contractor's type railroad - a real 30 inch gauge prototype in other words -- in a small space.
N had no interest for me until they got the couplers and wheel flanges and track height code to better standards by which time it was too late for me to switch. When N was new it would attract a crowd because it really could run well, and seemed to be highly detailed. It was when it was photographed that the various compromises became evident, and to me, unacceptable. N scale stuff now photographs beautifully as can be seen in MR and GMR as well as the various N specific magazines. This website for example has extraordinary photos of N modeling: http://modutrak.cgwrr.com/MiNi/Berryville.htm
Dave Nelson
My first encounter with N scale was in the mid 1970s when I was about eleven years old and agreed to buy a boxed set from a neighbor for $10.00. At that time the only scales I knew of was HO on up to the larger scales. Anyways, I put the track together and ran it for a few days but then realized that I wasn't going to be able to raise the money to pay for it so I had to return it to the neighbor. After that I swore that if I was ever able to have my choice of scale it would be N scale which is what I've been into since 1989 when I built my first layout. The only problem now is that my eyesight isn't as good as it used to be so I may one day have to sale out and move up to HO. :(
Tracklayer
Back in '68 I bought my first N Scale set a Atlas set with a RSC2 and 3 cars..I bought additional cars,track and several switches and built a 1' x 5' ISL that last several months.
I had to "sneak" around to buy N Scale because N Scale was not to be taken seriously since it was a toy novelty and a passing fad-spend your money on HO..Early N Scalers had a lot to endure as far as being the bunt of a joke and what all..
Standard slams of the day was "How do you see them itty bitty choo-choos?" or " Do you use a magnifying glass to see those tiny things?
From 78-87 and from 95-2000 I was in N and again from 2008-2011.
I still miss the Normal Scale.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
My first was American Flyer S scale in the 60s from Santa, but the first scale trains I bought with my own money we HO in about 1970. I switched to N in 1980 when I went into the Air Force due to the moves. That was right around the time that Atlas introduced their first quality N scale locomotives. So I'm probably not officially part of the group you're referring to, but close to it. Stayed in N until about 1997 when I went back to HO because I became more interested in the work-a-day world of the local than in mainline freights. Now if I had the space I'd go up to O to get even more up close to the personal feel.
narrow gauge nuclearI fear that not one single response is in the positive, i.e.("yep, I left S scale to go to N in 1970"),
Actually Nuclear, you are talking about me. Though I'm not quite sure on the year, it was actually in the late 60's. I had Flyer since I was a kid, when everyone else I knew was into HO. I had a Flyer layout in our old house, but it got torn down when our family moved and was never reassembled. It wasn't much but an oval of track on a table top anyway. With one siding and a plywood tunnel on one end.
I got interested in N-Scale about the time that Aurora came out with their "Postage Stamp" line of trains, but it took another Christmas or two before my folks consented to buy me a starter set. It was an Atlas set (made by Rivarossi, actually) with a Fairbanks Morse C-Liner, 3 cars, and a caboose. I started my first N-scale layout soon there after, and modeled in N-scale for most of my teenage and adult years. Though I have also dabbled in G, and in HOn30.
And now, as Paul Harvey would say; "the rest of the story". Two or three years back I was at a local swap meet, and something compelled me to buy a Flyer set that was very similar to the trains I had as a kid. Long story short - I don't own any N-scale anymore, I collect vintage Flyer.
I have figured out what is wrong with my brain! On the left side nothing works right, and on the right side there is nothing left!
I started with HO at age 5, been that way ever since! I did have a brief flirtation with n in the early 80's. I had a 4 ft square layout on foam that I kept under my bed in my old apartment, but went back to HO with the 1st house purchase. I still have a small "display" train in a case upstairs, but its just that,,display only.
BTW, what do you mean, old guy??
Karl
NCE über alles!
I started in HO as a kid in the early 1960s and stayed with it when I got back into the hobby in the late 1970s. Because my earliest trains were Lionel and American Flyer, to this day I think of HO as a small scale. I'd never even consider switching to N because it is too doggone small. I get frustrated enough working with small parts in HO. I'd be a basket case if I tried to work in N. I have too much invested in HO to consider switching now, but if I could start over, I'd give serious consideration to S scale. To me, it is the perfect size. HO is the king however when it comes to the abundance of merchandise available.
narrow gauge nuclear In the current related thread about TT gauge, I got to thinking.........Who among the HO gaugers of the period that are here, abandoned HO for N gauge? I realize that few abandoned HO with the first introduction of N gauge as it was pretty much cheap junk garbage in its intial introduction. But given two or three years after its introduction, how many here in these forums left HO or any of their favorite gauges very soon after N came on the market. I further realize that some waited 5 or 10 years to switch over, but how many leaped right in feet first? I am not talking about folks who bought their first trains in N and are still in it, either. Just the old guys who were already MRs and saw its introduction after they were established MRs. N certainly dropped right into a niche that TT did not due to a number of reasons. Modern man introduced N gauge about the time it invented Town Houses and the baby boomers, now young professionals, were apartment dwellers. The timing was perfect! Cramped living quarters and busy life styles saw smaller pikes look more appealing. Smaller cars were cool as the gas crunch began with 28 cent/gal gas morphing to nearly a buck a gallon. Miniaturization of every appliance, electronic item and convenience was the hot new norm of the day........ why not model trains!? Poor TT...... After WWII, bigger was better! Bigger homes, bigger cars, bigger TV sreens. Bigger paychecks....Wow! Just give it to us bigger and better. TT?...No thanks. How many folks liked N who were already MRs took it up and stayed with it. (Psst...hey.... I bought two nice N sets in the 70's and put 'em on a small table but the concept was still born to my way of thinking and they are now packed away in boxes.) I never, ever left HO for real........Just a couple of one night stands with N.....A flirtation that didn't take.
I was working in the model train business when N scale first started, I don't remember too many people switching. Mostly it was people new to the hooby who were interested by the size.
Personally, nothing against N scale, but I never even gave it a thought. I like to build stuff, and even as a teen, I could tell N scale was too small for me to enjoy working in.
I actually considered switching scales in the other direction several times many years ago. Either going to 1/4" two rail or scale rail S scale, but I'm habby I stayed with HO - and there is no turning back at his point.
N scale has come a long way, but it is just way ttoo small for me.
Sheldon
I'm not an "oldtimer", but I DID abandon HO for N scale from 2001 to 2005.
I got into the hobby when I was 5 when I recieved a Tyco "Brown Box era" trainset. Although it was junk, it did help paved the way for my eventual entry into the hobby during my teen years. I've managed to build a layout during that time, but space was limited and I was confined to just a 4x6. Over the years, I would look at the N scale items that were available and thought about switching scales only to stop myself when I realize that I would be giving up a fairly large collection of HO if I did switch. By 2001, I was living in a studio apartment and decided to take the plunge, so I sold off everything and started fresh in N scale.
Although N was a great space saver, I started having problems working with tiny parts like motors and gears in the mechanisms (which did cause a great concern as I knew that someday those parts would have to be replaced. I've found out later that most N scalers just replace the whole truck assembly.) This, along with the fact that most N scale couplers are truck-mounted and are plastic, led me to abandoning N scale in 2005. Since then, I've worked in O scale (2-rail) and S scale, but had decided to go back to HO as I really don't have the space for O or S.
Looking back...I've really regreted changing scales in the first place.
Well, it won't be happening to me. While I am somewhat limited on space, I have too much invested to switch over to N-scale at this point. Besides, the availability of steam in N-scale is woefully lacking compared to HO. The detailing is better, too.
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
I actually started with N, but it didn't take long to move to HO. The detail and mechanical work I like to do is much easier, and there's so much more available.
It takes some work to keep it going, but I do have a small N setup going around a little Christmas tree at work right now. It's led by a Life-Like 0-6-0T, which I've done some major work on to keep it running smooth(ish). Replacing the motor's stock magnets with neodymium was a massive improvement!
_________________________________________________________________
For me it was the mid seventies. I had some HO I was doodeling with and my dad was in HO steamers etc. A new hobbyshop opened up in town with the usual stuff and HO trains. One day I went in and he had all sorts of N scale set up and for my space confines I new it would work.
I started then with the lawn mower sounding engines etc., but look at N scale today. My N scale fleet runs right up there with the best HO out their and product availability is wow, compared to when I started. Back in those days except for a few standard items you had to scratch build. I learned those skills and use them today. So for me everything fell into place and made me a better model railroader because of the hurtles I had to jump in the early days of N scale.
With what I have now and N scale knowhow now, I would never go back to HO because I can build almost twice the railroad in the space I have available to me and I will never move from my home. I have however sectioned it, just in case my Son would want it when my time is up and I move to the great engine in the sky. Doug
OK So far we have one and only one old HO guy who more or less switched over in the late sixties and a whole bunch of folks who switched from N to HO. A few admitted that they never were in HO and started in N and are still there. Plus the usual cadre of HO folks swearing they will never go to N no matter what. The N gaugers, however, seem to be a little more tolerant of other's scales and are happy and secure in their scale.
While this is no big statistically viable study, my general impressions are well founded.
1. You have to almost start in N scale to adopt it and stay in it.
2. Few if any old hand MRs in all other scales rushed to drop their scale in a dash to N scale much prior to the early 70's when N was sort of maturing. In short, very, very few went to N scale unless it was their introduction to model railroading and first purchase.
3. An undetermined number who started in N have left it for other scales.
4. N is a scale that is readily accepted by folks in cramped spaces and first time buyers. N currently continues to attract new MR's
5. It is generally known that N is the second most popular scale after HO.
6. Those who leave N may leave out of frustration due to its size, often the very thing that brought them in.
7. Fewer leave N scale today as the offerings in the scale are relatively competitive with HO and many started in N and are heavily invested in it. N scalers seem to be mostly of the more modern era modelers though new comers to HO are also mostly of the modern era. (there are exceptions of course.)
It is difficult to determine what the true flow is either in or out of N scale. Both HO and N are very secure in their futures as the king and Queen of all MR scales with no genuine competitors in sight.
narrow gauge nuclearA few admitted that they never were in HO and started in N and are still there. Plus the usual cadre of HO folks swearing they will never go to N no matter what. The N gaugers, however, seem to be a little more tolerant of other's scales and are happy and secure in their scale.
Richard,
I guess it depends what your modeling interests are. Since I'm into steam and early diesel of the NYC, HO made much more sense because of availability.
It doesn't mean that I'm "less" tolerant of non-HO scales or insecure about my choice of scale. It means I have far more choices of good and fairly accurate locomtives in HO than I would in N. Other than a couple of mediocre Bachmanns, a Kato 2-8-2 Mike, and a Proto 2000 0-8-0 switcher, N-scale steam is VERY limited.
I do enjoy viewing N-scale layouts and admire the amount of layout you can get from the same footprint as HO. Even so, that isn't worth me switching if the locomotives and rolling stock I desire aren't available to me in a given scale.
narrow gauge nuclear 1. You have to almost start in N scale to adopt it and stay in it.
Totally false. As are most of your other conclusions. (Similar to the "Fishing for DCC problems" thread you ran a while back.)
Nearly all the active N scalers I know (like myself) did HO first. They are far from homogenous, and they don't all model modern era -- by a long shot. That's why early diesels like the S4 and S2 are seeing new models from manufacturers and brisk sales.
You are drawing many conclusions based on a false sample set. There are far fewer active N scalers on this forum than on others such as Railwire and Trainboard. If you asked your question there, you would have a more diverse picture of N scalers (not that it matters). For whatever reason, the most active N scalers have drifted away from the MR Forum over the years (or maybe it's threads like this).
As usual, any thread on the MR Forum about N scale is made up mostly of "damning with faint praise" from HO scalers. Comes from the makeup of the population and does not necessarily represent any "truth" about N scale.
My friends and clients model in a variety of scales, and each has its strong points. But asking questions of a forum made up primarily of HO scalers is no way to learn about what is really going on in N scale.
Layout Design GalleryLayout Design Special Interest Group
I did mention that the statistical validy was not there, but from those who answered or cared enough to answer we had a range of answers. The OP was directed specifically to old scalers prior to N who went to N, regardless of where they are now. Folks do change scales for a host of reasons as the respondents noted.
Both the HO scalers and the N crowd or supporters have chimed in but only one older scaler. I more or less got answers from everyone but my target audience. Oh well.
All scales are fine. I was looking for older guys who took to N scale like a fish to water and nothing more. I really do not understand the battle mentality I see here sometime. Folks seem to get their back arched up over some of the simplest things.
I could have arched my back over everyone who replied who were not old folks modeling way before N, but I listened and took in their thoughts. I assumed that they were not islands and have had experiences and picked up on the general flow between scales.
I guess I never considered this an HO forum only and hope that is not really the case or the hobby and model railroader will suffer for it. Scale bigotry is not good. Scale choice and the reasons for it is a freedom and a sharing of thought.
I shared my thoughts based on my life time observations and discussion with others in the MR community over my many years and the few answers to the OP.
As for the DCC problem "fishing" post you noted. found at
http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/11/t/133072.aspx
That was a good discussion by many folks who openly shared some common issues they found while either entering or working with DCC systems. There was little contention there. DCC issues are best aired so that the system can grow and morph into a ever improved version of itself. I assure you I was not stirring a contentious pot, but genuinely curious about the issues found by my fellow DCC operators.
My issue is simple: if the data set is admittedly "limited" and the respondents are "everyone but my target population", then it's simply unreasonable to state:
narrow gauge nuclear my general impressions are well founded.
my general impressions are well founded.
If you had said, "These are my personal opinions of N scale, though I have never modeled in it nor done research with the active N scale population", that's your prerogative and I wouldn’t have commented. But when seven somewhat incorrect statements are presented as a valid synopsis of this thread and therefore the N scale environment, it's just not accurately reflecting the state of N scale.
There's no "battle mentality" on my part -- I work with HO scalers (and O scalers, and O Gaugers, and those in #1 Gauge, etc., etc.) every day. But as with his thread, 90% of the responses to any N scale topic on this forum are of the "Well, it's better than years ago, but I'd never switch from HO scale" variety. This forum (unfortunately, in my view) is not reflective of what the more active N scalers are doing -- or even of the N scale content being presented in MR magazine.
Points taken.
Anyone else an old timer who switched to N scale early on?
I'll agree with our cuyama that the data collected does not support the conclusions presented. But I'll go a little further to say that I didn't see the hostility toward N that both you and he have concluded, nor that this is an HO only forum. Many said, as I did, that we went from HO to N and back to HO because it didn't satisfy our needs. That isn't hostility toward N or any other scale. Rather a recognition that each of us has a different goal for our railroad, as well as different constraints to work under. It's that interplay of goals and constraints that results in so many different views. Just like for me thinking about switching from HO to O scale occasionally, we each have moments and thought of "if I switched to X scale, I could do this..." but dang it, then I couldn't do that.