Just an observation. But I often see people come in and start a topic like this and you never see them post after the first post. It's like they post a topic to troll or drop a bomb and then leave and watch the fur fly. I tend to wonder when I see topics like this go on and on with few or any posts from the topic starter. Does anyone smell a rat?
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
riogrande5761Just an observation. But I often see people come in and start a topic like this and you never see them post after the first post. It's like they post a topic to troll or drop a bomb and then leave and watch the fur fly. I tend to wonder when I see topics like this go on and on with few or any posts from the topic starter. Does anyone smell a rat?
For my advavnced marketing class (way back when this was a new topic - 2004?) I did an assignment where we had to write a paper for two examples of the "best and worst" marketing examples we had seen. For "bad" I used the MTH advertisement in Model Railroader Magazine for their original HO offering as an example (the other "bad" example was the Quiznos hampsters with red crazy eyes - I still have been unable to force myself to eat a Quiznos since then). I pointed out how the advertisement did not focus on the good points of their model but rather the defects of the model they were in competition against. This mean spirited attituide was seen in other parts of the ad too. I pointed out how their advertising of their "new" patented digital back EMF system was just making their target market angry since it was an unfounded patent as other companies had been using the technology for years. The lawsuits involved was alienating the DCC market in general since the suits had held up DCC advancement for years. Where the ad did talk about the features of the MTH model it emphasized many of the "toy trainish" aspects. I suggested that they had not done good marketing research on their HO target market and just assumed it was like the O-gauge market in a smaller size (another sign of their arrogance).
Yes, this happens often. I would hope we'd cage the rat, but let it be a rat. We have been civil here. I try to keep an open mind. I know MTH doesn't make junk. I know they do take pride in their products, and that they have the same problems with hand-assembled intricate toys for a hobby market that BLI, Bachmann, and the others have to play whack-a-mole to keep things running smoothly. These aren't $1000 brass wonders, after all.
I really do wish MTH had been smarter about engaging the HO world by announcing their products, offering sensible operating choices that would make so many more interested in trying their products, and then beginning to market their DCS system to test the waters. Instead, they dropped a bunch of 'stuff' on the counter and proclaimed it was superior to what their customer base, either DC or DCC, was using at the time. Take it or leave it. Their success has been hampered ever since. Now, with the Big Boy, a lot of users report that they are having problems, and not only with the locomotives.
I get the impression it's good to be in BLI's shoes these days. They went through their dark days three years ago, and now with the court case win behind them against MTH, they are back in business and pumping out reasonably good products....with predictable exceptions here and there.
So I'm a rat because I asked a question and didn't respond to the hearsay that most of the responders posted. It's funny to me how many responses started out with " I don't own a MTH" or "someone at the club knows someone". I see this a lot that all of the forum experts respond this way on many subjects.
I have 68 steam engines, fifteen are MTH. I have had no problems with any of the fifteen. As far as being a rat, I do not have anything to do with MTH. I live in Illinois across the river from St. Louis, my layout was on the NMRA layout tour in 2001 and has been on the Mid-Continent tour.
i resent being called a rat because I asked a question and didn't respond to the BS that was posted.
selector I get the impression it's good to be in BLI's shoes these days. They went through their dark days three years ago, and now with the court case win behind them against MTH, they are back in business and pumping out reasonably good products....with predictable exceptions here and there.
Another thing MTH has done that BLI has not is alienated the various historical societies by not taking the historical societies advice when producing their products. Their K4 was a joke and the PRR modelers puchased the BLI version much more so than the MTH version. The PRR Historical and Society offered their advice but never heard from MTH but BLI worked with them to produce a prototypically accurate version. The same thing has happened with the PRR H10 BLI's is accurate but the little we have gleaned from MTH is that it is a Hybrid of the H9 and H10 and correct for neither.
The same thing happened with the B&O, correct car but the lettering had the incorrect class listed on the car, while many will not notice the modeling groups sure do and avoid "foobies" like that like the plague.
And I won't go into all the problems with the NKP Berkshire and the other "foobie" road names that MTH put on that locomotive.
Rick J
Rule 1: This is my railroad.
Rule 2: I make the rules.
Rule 3: Illuminating discussion of prototype history, equipment and operating practices is always welcome, but in the event of visitor-perceived anacronisms, detail descrepancies or operating errors, consult RULE 1!
UPFEF, you gotta understand a lot of people post here and then walk away and don't respond. If you don't like the posts you see and just sit and watch the fur fly, you can't blame some people for wondering. Just saying...
For anyone who's wondering, MTH stands for "Mike's Train House".
I think the biggest issue for MTH is their electronics. They work OK with DCC, and they run on DC, but not well. In the MR review, the K4 only got up to about 20 scale MPH on the standard 12V DC power! I've also been hearing about some issues with their electronics failing, like you run one of them for an hour and then it stops delivering power to the motor. However, their mechanical quality is top notch from what I've heard.
When compared to other models at similar prices, I haven't found the detail to be impressive. Some parts look too heavy, a major stripe may be painted too high (I'm talkin' 'bout YOU, Dreyfuss Hudson!), or some other compromise is made. When put side by side, the SD70ACe and Gas Turbines from Athearn look much better than the MTH models. Also, that new value line F unit looks about as good as the old train set Life-Like F7.
As for the 4-12-2, they included a lock for those not wanting the frame to articulate. The only thing is, it increases the minimum radius to something like 36".
I have some of MTH's standard gauge tinplate American Flyer reproductions. This is the kind of stuff they did when they first started, and this is where their products really shine. They're doing ok with the HO stuff, but they may be better off sticking with what they know best.
_________________________________________________________________
riogrande5761 Just an observation. But I often see people come in and start a topic like this and you never see them post after the first post. It's like they post a topic to troll or drop a bomb and then leave and watch the fur fly. I tend to wonder when I see topics like this go on and on with few or any posts from the topic starter. Does anyone smell a rat?
Good point, but he might just be curious to others having problems with MTH.
I purchased two of their products in HO to see how the smoke feature works and it is amazing. That said, the detail is less than I want in a model train that is premium priced. In general, they do run well but are not compatible overall to any other DCC that is the standard for HO.
CZ
UPFEF So I'm a rat because I asked a question and didn't respond to the hearsay that most of the responders posted. It's funny to me how many responses started out with " I don't own a MTH" or "someone at the club knows someone". I see this a lot that all of the forum experts respond this way on many subjects. I have 68 steam engines, fifteen are MTH. I have had no problems with any of the fifteen. As far as being a rat, I do not have anything to do with MTH. I live in Illinois across the river from St. Louis, my layout was on the NMRA layout tour in 2001 and has been on the Mid-Continent tour. i resent being called a rat because I asked a question and didn't respond to the BS that was posted.
UPFEF, the phrase '...smell a rat' is well established, and on this forum, and on others I frequent, so is the behaviour of asking an inflammatory question and then sitting back to observe the fallout. I am sure we didn't mean offense, certainly I did not. I am glad you popped in to help to constrain the dialogue.
In turn, I resent being told my opinions, or that my reading experience and recollection as I have related them here, are BS. If you don't like being labelled a rat, is calling me a liar an improvement?
One thing to note about the OP and that is that he has been a member of the forum since 2005 so he is hardly likely to be trolling as opposed to a newbie whose first post might be a flamer.
That said, once the OP did reply, he called the responses BS if the repliers started with " I don't own a MTH" or "someone at the club knows someone". Now, that hardly seems fair. He asked why so many trash MTH. He got reasonable responses.
I have never owned MTH and here is why. MTH filed three different lawsuits against BLI for patent infringement. The first two were thrown out of court. As a loyal supported of BLI, I resented those frivolous lawsuits, so I boycotted MTH.
The OP asked a reasonable question, then ridiculed the reasonable replies. Whatever.
Rich
Alton Junction
Crandel
i didn't call anyone a liar, just stated MY OPINION on people giving advice on items they have never owned. It's time too close this discussion before someone gets their feelings hurt. Till next time I have a question.
Jim
But, Jim, you never asked to just hear from owners of MTH products. You merely asked why so many trash MTH.
I don't typically buy MTH because they don't follow the prototype as closely as I like (usually). It's nothing personal, they just cater to a different market.
I hate them because of the lawsuits. The O scale market is much more fragile than HO or N and the more money the few manufactureres we have need to tie up in lawyers, the less there is to produce quality, reasonably priced models. He has done a disservice to everyone in O.
I do own a MTH passenger car set that I converted to two rail but never run because they are 10' too short and a caboose that needs major work to bring it to some sort of portotype fidelity. I have never considered buying any of there locomotives because most of their diesels are too new and their steam engines have major flaws when compared to the prototype.
Check out the Deming Sub by clicking on the pics:
Ah, MTH. Well, my introduction to MTH in my HO world was when BLI included a note in their first run of E7's that stated that certain features (notibly BEMF) of the QSI decoder had been deactivated to comply with a lawsuit filed by MTH. Anyone who knows anything about electric motor control knows that BEMF (back electro magnetic force) has been used to control motor speed for decades if not a century. It was ludicrous to think that MTH was suing over a common motor control technology that had long been in the public domain. What was especially galling was knowing that MTH got their start as a manufacturer by copying old Lionels and even a DPM design.
Over on the old Atlas HO Forum, after MTH announced their entry into HO scale, a new member signed on and began singing MTH's praises. He told us how MTH was going to revolutionize our scale, how great MTH was going to be, how well they were going to run, and so on. He presented himself as a fully satisfied MTH O gauge customer who was so excited that they were going to get into HO scale. Next thing you know, Atlas perma-banned the account and stated publically on their forum that the member in question had his ISP tracked to MTH headquarters. In other words, he was a real, honest to goodness shill.
In 2006, MTH ran ads for their new HO PRR K-4 Pacific which actually attacked BLI's version that was out already. This is unheard of in HO scale. HO manfacturers may be competitors, but they never stick it to each other like MTH did.
In 2009, MTH sued BLI for having a microprocessor controlled smoke unit, which is absurd.
In 2010, Woodland Scenics sued MTH over the incredible likenesses between Woodland Scenic's HO structures and MTH's O scale structures.
MTH's non-DCS/DCC engines run on 24VDC, which makes them a little slow on normal DC layouts.
MTH's original runs of HO DCS/DCC engines did not MU on non-Digitrax DCC systems. They also didn't allow speed matching, function mapping, or really much of any customization other than DCC address and volume. This is counter to most DCC users.
MTH DCS/DCC engines cannot use the programming track. They must be programmed on the mainline (if at all). This also means that they cannot be read, something that's been common with DCC for 20+ years (except with MRC decoders).
Recently, a member on another Forum stated that MTH will not honor any warranty unless the engine was purchased from a licensed MTH dealer. So if you have an MTH engine that has a problem, like a burned out motor or fried electronics, they'll ask you where you bought it. If it's not on a list of approved dealers, you're out of luck. Name me another HO company that does that.
As for my own personal experiences, I have found them a real bear to try to program at my 70-member club, which uses Digitrax. I am generally the one the guys turn to when they have trouble, and I have had very little success just trying to get a new address into them. Also, a friend of mine got some of their NYC passenger cars, and the name boards on the cars are all crooked (which is very obvious on a corrigated stainless steel car). As a result of these foibles, the total number of MTH engines on our 1200+ loco roster is 1.
Paul A. Cutler III
UPFEFI don't own a MTH" or "someone at the club knows someone". I see this a lot that all of the forum experts respond this way on many subjects.
First hand observations at model railroad clubs is priceless not only do you know the person you get to see the model in action regardless if its good or bad.
No club? Plently of first hand review videos on you tube that shows the engine in action.
That's how I judge a new locomotive and then make a informed decision if I want to purchase it..
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
All these posts about "a gold brick for free" and no one asks the key question.
What Scale is the Gold Brick? Bet a Z-brick would be cost affective marketing.
richhotrain LensCapOn wrote the following post 5 minutes ago: All these posts about "a gold brick for free" and no one asks the key question. What Scale is the Gold Brick? Bet a Z-brick would be cost affective marketing. That's cuz no one knows what you are talking about. Rich
Short attention span Rich?
"The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge but imagination."-Albert Einstein
http://gearedsteam.blogspot.com/
Well, I trash MTH for all the reasons listed throughout this thread.
But for me, most importantly, I trash MTH because Mike Wolf is so arrogant as to not need or want any of my money - he does not want to sell me locomotives.
Why do I say that? Because virtually all of them run like crap on DC, and I am a DC operator.
My money is not good enough for him because I am not intersted in DCC. DCS, sound, smoke, station announcements, over sized and incorrect detail, incorrect but working marker/class lights and all the other toy like gimmicks their products have.
So, I respect the wishes of Mr Wolf and do not buy his products.
I do not need my HO trains to do more, they do plenty enough just the way they are thank you.
Sheldon
At this point, asked and answered. 'Bout time to call this one baked.
-Crandell
selector At this point, asked and answered. 'Bout time to call this one baked. -Crandell
One final post before buttoning this one up, fellas - if I may. While I don't own any MTH locomotives, I do own some of their passenger cars - in particular, (8) NYC 20th Century Limited cars in the '40 scheme. I've been VERY happy and impressed with both the detailing and the operation of each car.
The keep-alive LED lighting module is steps ahead of the lighting systems of the Walthers and Rapido cars. Nary a flicker nor the need to turn off/replace batteries. It takes about one minute for each car to power up fully and they stay lit after the power is turned off for ~5 minutes. I'm hoping that MTH will offer some additional/different 20th Century Limited cars in the future.
Again, I don't own a MTH locomotive but I have seen them in action up close. While they operate quite smoothly on DCC, the detailing on the exterior is decent but not necessarily great. I prefer BLI for detailing.
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
One of my philosophies in gathering information, weather in person or from internet reviews is "Eat the meat and spit out the bone." It is very difficult sometimes to sort out fact, fiction or distortions when you are attempting to get that "honest and unbiased" data. Sometimes, I discover some of the "grass roots" websites that I want to trust for unbiased facts turn out to be funded by conglomerates or other special interest groups with alterior motives.
I try to research nearly all of my purchases like most of us here. I try to cross-reference and exhaust all of my available options. One thing I have to remind myself of is that a good portion of the reviews seem to come from consumers who have been dissatisfied or somehow let down in their experience with a product. They have an axe to grind.
Then there's the possibility of the shill or "champion"—someone who champions a favored product or disdains a certain manufacturer's product. In time these people are usually uncovered for what they are but by then a great deal of damage (reputation) may be done. This is the bone to spit out.
So it was with this philosophy that I watched MTH with a wary eye. I do not fall in favor of litigious people and Mike certainly falls into this category. I swore that I would never buy an MTH product.
Well, along comes the BLI streamlined Hudson and, of course, I had to have one (or three) but when will BLI (or Walthers for that matter) make cars that I can showcase that beautiful engine with? Wait, and wait... and wait.
Here comes MTH with a full, and pretty accurate I must admit, compliment of 1938 and 1940 Twentieth Century Limited cars... what do I do now? Turns out, I eat my words! Prompted by Tstage's photos and "mini-review" posted on these forums, I just had to do it. Figuring that MTH hasn't been on the litigation radar for some time now AND that I would never see any Century cars in the distant future I bit the bullet.
I have to agree with Tom that these cars are a "home run!" In many ways better than the Walther's counterpart. I don't have to twist, hammer and pry to get the car open, the interior details are incomparable and the lighting is superb! If MTH wants to make a bundle, they could sell their keep-alive circuitry as a stand-alone product!
Just my 2¢ Thanks, Ed
gmpullmanHere comes MTH with a full, and pretty accurate I must admit, compliment of 1938 and 1940 Twentieth Century Limited cars... what do I do now? Turns out, I eat my words! Prompted by Tstage's photos and "mini-review" posted on these forums, I just had to do it. Figuring that MTH hasn't been on the litigation radar for some time now AND that I would never see any Century cars in the distant future I bit the bullet.
well from what i can see it seems that MTH has issues when it comes to steam , they seem to have HO diesels down but the big steamers have decoder issues that go back to the dcc vs dcs that has been well covered here , wish they would just get on board with the industry standard 7 watch his buisness grow
After i got my replacement motors for my MTH SD70ACE's they are some ok running diesels.
Russell
BRAKIE richhotrain LensCapOn wrote the following post 5 minutes ago: All these posts about "a gold brick for free" and no one asks the key question. What Scale is the Gold Brick? Bet a Z-brick would be cost affective marketing. That's cuz no one knows what you are talking about. Rich Grasshopper,the answer to the Zen like riddle is found on page one in ndbprr reply...
LOL
Somehow I missed ndbprr's reply.
Where is Geared Steam when I really need him?
richhotrain BRAKIE richhotrain LensCapOn wrote the following post 5 minutes ago: All these posts about "a gold brick for free" and no one asks the key question. What Scale is the Gold Brick? Bet a Z-brick would be cost affective marketing. That's cuz no one knows what you are talking about. Rich Grasshopper,the answer to the Zen like riddle is found on page one in ndbprr reply... LOL Somehow I missed ndbprr's reply. Where is Geared Steam when I really need him? Rich
I tried to help but was too late
Hi, TZephyr
I was also in the market for a second GG1. I have my first run BLI from what, 1999? It still runs flawlessly but it is in the not too common Tuscan paint. I wanted a large keystone with single Dulux stripe G so I started looking at MTH. They "won" the tooling from the BLI lawsuit but when I took a closer look at the finish and details it just didn't measure up to what I would expect, especially for the prices I see out there for the MTH.
I decided to look for an older BLI issue. Glad I did. I found a bargain on ebay that was Dark Green Locomotive Enamel with five gold stripes which is beautiful—so now I'll repaint my Tuscan one.
I'm not going to commit myself to any MTH engines. I was once tempted by the Empire State Hudson but, alas, I'll stick with Life-Like PA's on my Empire State.
Take care, Ed