Hi everyone:
Some time ago a thread was started asking how to make illuminated business signs in HO that stood perpendicular to the building front. I have searched for the thread, and I even found it once, but I can't find it again.
Anyhow, I made a suggestion about how to do it without ever actually having done it (and I admitted that), and I said I would give my suggestion a try once I found some 1/4" plexiglass to play with. Turns out that finding a small piece of plexiglass was easier said than done, but I finally came across a piece on eBay.
So, I have put my idea to work. The results need some fine tuning which I hope you can help with.
Here is the process I went through:
First test was with 3mm LEDs. The illumination is good but the wiring will be hard to hide:
For the second sign I used 0603 SMD LEDs wired in parallel using .010 phosphor bronze wire. I drilled small depressions into the edge of the sign to reduce the height that the LEDs stood out from the sign:
The next step was to glue .010 styrene around the outside edges of the sign to hide the wiring. Then the sign was masked and the outside edges were painted gloss black. I used the decals to trace the outline on the masking tape. This is the sign before painting:
And after painting. The fine scratches are the result of having to file off excess epoxy used to glue the styrene edges to the plexiglass. Unfortunately the epoxy didn't hold the styrene well at all because I forgot to wash the styrene first, so CA was used to keep the styrene in place:
Here is the sign with the decals applied. You can see that it still needs some touch up around the edges to block the light leaks. You can also see that the SMD LEDs don't provide nearly the light that the 3mm ones did so the illumination is a little patchy. It looks OK in the picture but in reality there is a bright spot at each LED and the rest of the sign is noticeably dimmer. I also had a heck of a time getting the decals to lay flat. You can see some damage on the red letters:
Since the last picture was take I have used three applications of solvaset so the wrinkles are now minimal but there are still a few.
I would appreciate suggestions on how to improve the signs.
Should I have used gloss coat to fill the small scratches? I'm not experienced in applying decals but I suspect that's where I fouled up.
How can I hide the 3mm LEDs better? I have an idea that if I sand them down to eliminate the lip and drill them further into the sign I could get the wiring profile down, but I would have to solder the wires to the LEDs before mounting them. Getting the spacing right on the wires could be a challenge.
Let's hear your thoughts!
Thanks
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
How did you glue the LEDs in? I haven't tried it yet, but in other articles I've read, something like Faller Xpert cement makes an optically clear joint - I plan to use this to attach LEDs to the cut down light pipes in my Atlas RS3's. Previously I just used heat shrink to hold the LED at the cut off end, and it works OK, but I am probably only getting a very small percentage of the light transferred. A smoother, more optically clear joint between the LEDs and the plastic would reduce the light hot spots and diffuse the light more thoroughly.
Also, there are LEDs that are smaller than 3mm but still not surface mounts. They might work more liek the 3mm, but be easier to hide. If the clear plastic is wide enough, you could file a groove in it lengthsie then drill the holes for the LEDs - this would give a palce for the wires to run, which you would then cap with the styrene like you did for the surface mount LEDs. Use magnet wire, and also wire the LEDs in seres, say 4 across the top, that way you don't have to deal with parallel wires, just one nearest the mount from the first LED, then series wires the others all the way across, put a good coat of something over them for insulation, then run the second wire back in the groove on top of the others, finally cap the whole thing with the styrene frame around the sign.
Always torn on polishing the whoel thing or roughing it up. If it's polished, the light won't actually come out the sides. The bright spots under the decal are probably where the scratches are. For best results with the light coming in at the edges, you might want to use something 800 grit or finer and actually rough up the whole surface first, although this makes applying a decal a LOT harder. Decal setting solution is a MUST - not sure how it reacts with plexiglas though, test it first, It's fine on styrene models, but the plexis is completely different and may react differently to solvents, as you noticed when trying to glue the styrene to it.
In fact i remember an old MR article on using a clear acrylic or lucite rod to transmit light. Small rough spots every so often resulted in places where the light came out, other than the opposite end from the lamp. That's the key, a totall smooth surface won;t let much of the internal light out - think of a perfectly smooth pool or pond, and how clear the sky refelction is, but when distrubed the refelction breaks up and you see the water more. Same deal, the light inside the plexi reflects back inside when hitting the smooth outside edge, and only a little escapes. Where it's roughed up, the light reflects in multiple directions, more of which are to the outisde of the material.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Hi Randy:
I used 90 second epoxy to glue the LEDs in place. The stuff I am using sets very clear. It is almost as transparent as the plexiglass is. I don't think there is much difference in transparency between the 90 second epoxy and the regular five minute stuff but the 90 second epoxy means a LOT less waiting time when you are trying to keep things aligned.
I understand your point about roughing the surface up to increase the light refraction, but as you say, a rough surface will make decal application a pain. You have me thinking that if you could glue a piece of .005" clear styrene over the top of the roughed up surface, using a glue like epoxy that would fill all the scratches, you would get much better light distribution and have a smooth surface to mount the decal on. However, that seems like a lot of work to go to when the 3mm LEDs seemed to illuminate the first sign just fine even without a roughed up surface.
One other point is that you can't have any air bubbles at all between the decal and the plexiglass. I experimented with a dry transfer from Woodland Scenics but the transfer leaves a ton of very tiny air pockets under it. When you shine the light through the air pockets it creates a bunch of tiny shadows that totally ruin the effect. The sign looks very dim. I burnished the dry transfers to the point of ruining the transfer but the shadows were still there. This was done on a fresh piece of plexiglass with no surface scratches. I also tried gluing the transfer onto the plexiglass with Aileen's Tacky glue. That eliminated the shadow effect from the bubbles but the glue took forever to dry. In fact, after two days the transfer was still very soft. I think perhaps that the dry transfer material, plus the carrying sheet, are pretty much moisture proof so the glue can't dry. Maybe if it was left for a week or two.
Randy - thanks for your input.
I think the key is that the Faller Xpert melts the palstic a bit and then when it dries it's supposedly optically clear.
The primary article I'm thinking about was in April 1973 by D. Derek Verner
Something else I was gong to add but now I can;t remember what I was going to say - hate when that happens.
A thin clear piece that is perfectly smooth to act as a decal carrier may indeed be the way to go. Makre sure it is absolutely clean and free of scratches and even fingerprints. Maybe use Future floor polish to clear coat it before applying the decal. That would get you best of both worlds, the plexi roughed up for good light transfer, and most of all, smooth light transfer, yet the perfectly flat piece for decals to adhere to. Between decal setting solution and a pin you should be able to get all the air bubbles out.
Dave,
I wonder how that would look and work,if you painted all the edges silver and then painted black over it. Do you think it would act like a mirror and reflect the light back into the sign? Just wondering! Nice project!
Cheers,
Frank
ANother good idea. I saw that in a 1940's MR article on using plastic light pipes to put lights on a Varney Lil Joe. The author suggested painting the pipes with silver, then black, to make sure most of the light reflected in the pipe and out to the ends where the front and rear 'lights' were.
Frank and Randy:
I played with the idea of painting the edges silver before I put the styrene around the sign, but I was concerned that trying to glue the styrene to the paint would not work very well. I was also concerned that if there were any spots where the silver paint could get in around any of the LEDs then the light coming from that LED would be partially blocked. Next time I will try the silver paint and make sure that the LEDs are fully immersed in epoxy.
There is one other challenge involved in making these signs. That is trying to find suitable decals. I have searched every decal maker that I could find and there are relatively few signs with the appropriate themes and colours that will make the signs work. There are plenty of signs with white lettering but they lack a colour outline to make the letters stand out. White letters by themselves don't show up. I tried photocopied signs but the printing on them is just not crisp enough to make the sign look right. The next route I will explore is custom decals but I predict that they will not be cheap because the costs of doing the artwork for several different signs. I'll have to explore some graphic arts programs to see if I can create the signs myself. Any suggestions about what programs to look at?
Can't help You with the Program's, but,somewhere in my files, I found a source, for different color transparent, Decal film. That can be used in a printer,or cut out, to put on your sign,that will show through the sign. I have to shut down soon, so later, I will find the link and post it here, for you to look at. Red, Green, Yellow and Blue colors.
Before I shut down, I found this in one of my files, maybe it will be of some use for you,hope it works:
http://www.misterart.com/architecture-drafting/drafting/films/film-sheets/grafix-colored-clear-lay-film.html?utm_source=PriceGrabber&utm_medium=datafeed&utm_term=57713&utm_campaign=PriceGrabberProducts
Thanks Frank
My initial reaction is that cutting the coloured portions of a sign out of the sheets would be quite difficult, at least for me with my often shaky hands. Putting white lettering over top of the coloured sheets won't work. The lettering will show as a shadow instead of being brightly illuminated.
I will keep the coloured sheets in mind. Thanks for the suggestion.
What if you wire the LEDs so the wires face the center and the tip faces out ward, the wires could form a square supporting the LEDs.
Hi Kyle:
I think I understand what you are suggesting. That would work if the sign were hollow but these are made out of 1/4" solid plexiglass so the lighting has to shine in towards the centre of the sign.
Thanks for your input.
Now I understand, I was thinking it would be hollow with plexiglass on the sides (like prototypical signs), didn't think about the 1/4" thickness for some reason. What about a thin sheet of clear styrene on the sides? If you want the plexiglass what about having a lighted base like the sell for te glass blocks with the designs, you could try to make your own and put it into the scenery base of your layout.
I worked at a professional model shop in New York many years ago (Even worked with Derek Verner, author of many MRR articles) and we used Plexiglas extensively in the models/displays we built (FYI: Plexiglas is the trade name of Rohm and Hass's acrylic material). One thing that may help with the sign in question here is to use milk white translucent rather than clear acrylic. The translucent material diffuses the light and reduces hot spots. The surfaces that you want light to exit or come thru should be a satin or sandblasted surface and the areas you want to reflect light should be polished. We also found that white surfaces reflected more light than silver surfaces. We always used white enamel reflectors on fluorescent fixtures rather than chrome/stainless steel in our displays for that reason. Try painting the outer edges with white enamel first and then black (after cementing the LED's to the outer edges).
These are a few things that I remember from the 'good old days' working in a model shop. I would try some of them and see if they improve the final output.
-Bob
Life is what happens while you are making other plans!
I remember what i wanted to add the other night - yes, you can turn down the flange on LEDs. Just don;t go too far, or you will lose support for the lead wires, and any pressure could move the inside part and break the fragile junction wire from the one wire to the actual semiconductor material on top of the other one - if you hold a clear LED up to the light you can see this fine wire in there.
You can turn the other end of the LED as well - just don't go into said hair fine wire or the LED is ruined. People have turned down the tops to fit them in signal masts or headlight holes
Thanks Randy:
I have actually turned down a few 3mm LEDs, although I can't remember what the project was. I understand your caution about not moving the leads once the LED is turned down. On my next attempt I will drill the turned 3mm LEDs further into the plexiglass and use magnet wire from the shortened leads so I don't have the original leads poking out of the sign. The epoxy will keep the leads from moving.
I mentioned previously that finding suitably coloured decals was a challenge. Well, last night I went nuts and ordered a bunch of decal sheets even though some of them only had one or two suitable decals on the whole sheet. I think I spent more than $100! For that I could have purchased a sheet of custom decals, but I wanted to have some material to experiment with that I don't mind messing up.
Another challenge is that even if you find a suitable decal, in most cases they don't have the matching reverse image to allow you to do both sides of the sign. Those ones will end up flat against the wall or off in a corner where only one side of the sign is visible.
Again, thanks for your input.
After reading over some of the posts, Farrellaa,replied,with an interesting,idea, although he took me back,many years,in doing so. In the mid to later 50's,I belonged,to the Chicago Boy's club, that had a plastic's shop, that you were taught,how to use all types,of plastic cutting machines,from band saws,to lathes and that type of plastic,he referred to,is all we used, no LED's back then,but small incandescent bulbs. I once made a daisy flower display,for my Mother, that I totally forgot about. I can smell,the fumes,from the plastic cutting now.
Again Good Luck In your project, should my old mind remember, anything helpful to you, I will surely, pass them on..
My first thought was that I wanted these signs to be able to stand out from the second storey of "Main Street" retail and office buildings. I had not thought about ground mounted signs for industries but your suggestion would definately work for those.
Using a thin sheet of plexiglass on either side with a hollow middle won't give the sort of light distribution, at least I don't think it would. Haven't tried it.
Bob!
Milk white plexiglass!! Why the heck didn't I think of that? Thanks. (Now I have to spend more money)
I did manage to get the white reflective surfaces right because I used white styrene to finish the edge of the sign. Also, the epoxy used to attach the styrene did a half decent job of filling the scratches and voids around the outside edges of the sign and the LEDs and wiring. Not perfect but OK.
By golly, I do believe that we are making some progress on developing these signs! Now I just need to wait until more decals arrive.
I may be absent for a few days sometime soon because my mother has just been placed in Palliative Care so please be patient.
As I mentioned I worked at a professional model shop for many years and have collected a lot of 'scrap' pcs of Plexiglas and may still have a few square inches of the translucent white in 1/8" thickness. I will have to dig around and see if I can find some and try what I had described. Don't hold your breath though, I have boxes of odd stuff from those days that I probably won't ever get to use. Plastic fabrication shops may have scraps of this that you can buy for a lot less than a small sheet.
This is actually just a slightly updated version of a theater project that appeared in the hobby press back in the 70's, with the exception of using LEDs instead of bulbs .... no offence. I made a few of those signs myself at the time, and they did look pretty decent.
A MUCH simpler approach would be to use some of Miller Engineering's electroluminescent sheets. I've used a LOT of this stuff and it's really easy to work with - just cut it to shape with a pair of scissors. You can color it, paint it and even apply color decals to it ....
http://www.microstru.com/Experimenter-Kits.html
Mark.
¡ uʍop ǝpısdn sı ǝɹnʇɐuƃıs ʎɯ 'dlǝɥ
Hi Mark:
I have purchased a Miller Engineering sign (the two part theater one) and I think it is great. I plan on using several of the Miller Engineering signs. I will follow your suggestion to get an experimenter kit (which I knew of and had forgotten about) but I kind of have a bee in my bonnet about developing the plexiglass idea. That plus the fact that I just spent a fortune on decal sheets for the signs. (Please don't tell my wife!!) I'll have to do some thinking before I decide which experimenter kit to buy.
What I want is a sign that is brighter than the Miller Engineering sign that I have. I want to cast a bit of a glow on the surrounding walls and sidewalks, and I want the signs to be bright enough to show up against the lighted store front windows below them. I did notice that the white panels in the experimenter kits seemed to be brighter than the theater sign that I have so I will definately have to give them a try. Also, I want something that is unique to my layout. I am interested in exploring custom decals to achieve that because as I said earlier there are actually rather few decals that lend themselves to making the signs. There is one other factor which is cost. I can make lots of plexiglass signs with what I have on hand and the Miller signs will add up.
Some of you may recall my efforts with HO vehicle headlights. What I hope to achieve is a street scene which mimics the lighting on a real 1950's commercial street, with lots of illuminated signs, storefront windows, apartment entrances etc. and traffic lights and vehicles. I already figured that I'm going to have to run another 20 amp line into the layout room. I will consult a licensed electrician before I run any wires.
Call me nuts but I really want my night scenes to come alive.
Then when you have,your night light scenes,figured out, You could start on the ''Vegas'' night scene.
Hope Your Mother, will be OK!
The latest (meaning, December 2013) issue of the NMRA Magazine has an article by Pierre Willermet "Electroluminescent Tape for Back-Lit Signs and Store Fronts." This product, also called "light tape," is evidently used in some of the animated signs available commercially. It can be cut, bent, and has other interesting qualities. If you do not get the magazine, find a friend who is an NMRA member and ask to borrow it.
Dave Nelson
I do remember in that early article that the author sanded the surface of the plexiglass as it helps to duffuse the light across the surface and not just out the edges. On your 3mm LED version, sanding the surface of the LEDs themselves also helps immensely in diffusing the light as well. I've used nearly a thousand of the 3mm LEDs for structure lighting, and by sanding the surface, it eliminates that pin-point of light on the ground. Kind of like comparing a spot light and a flood light.
Dave Nelson:
Thanks for the lead on the NMRA article. I have been thinking of re-joining the NMRA for a while. That might push me into action. The challenge will still lie in coming up with suitable decals. They need colour if possible but more importantly they need to have the letters outlined in black so they can be seen.
Mark:
I understand what you mean. When I sand down the LEDs so I can insert them further into the core of the signs it will also accomplish what you suggest.
By the way, my mom is much more calm and relaxed now that she has made the decision to not carry on with life. She is actually smiling. Its a bit tough to go through but for us but we are hugely relieved that she is at peace.
hon30critter I'll have to explore some graphic arts programs to see if I can create the signs myself. Any suggestions about what programs to look at? Dave
Inkscape is the perfect program for this. It's a vector graphics program (unlike Photoshop and GIMP which are raster graphics.) There should be plenty of tutorials on Youtube for learning to use it. And best of all.....it's FREE.
http://inkscape.org/
One advantage of vector graphics over raster graphics is that you can resize things without any loss of detail.
You can also reshape text by moving the control points around.
Steve S
Alright Steve!
Thank you for recommending a suitable graphics program, and I really like the price!!