"Getting them built"

[CNJ831]

I'd have to say that Lance Mindheim's letter in the Railway Post Office section of the latest MR is one of the most poignant in a very long time. Therein Lance points out how far too many modelers today are caught up in the idea that the only way they are going to enjoy the hobby is in building a "fantasy" layout far beyond their finances, ability, and available time.

Refering to the modest layouts of Bob Madison and Bob Warren, which appeared in the article regarding paperwork in the September issue, Lance correctly points out that it is more important to set one's sights on a layout of a size that can be well executed in a reasonable amount of time and at a realistic cost. Far too many hobbyists either endlessly delay starting a layout or get bogged down in the very early stages of huge designs simply because they feel "big and complex" is the only way to go.

I expect that both Madison's and Warren's fine looking, well detailed, small layouts could be replicated by most hobbyists in from a few months to under a year, start to finish, at the cost of no more than several thousand dollars even for the Niniget Cove example.

These two layouts are in striking contrast to the basement-filling efforts that typically dominate the pages of MR and the other publication. Few of these could be replicated for less than $15,000-$50,000 and would take an individual a great many years to complete even with the assistance of a group of talented friends.

While we all like to see photo's of some grandeous layout, I think many fail to appreciate that the endless monthly diet of such pictorials offered us by the magazines skews the preception that our goal should be to build a working, scenicked layout that is within our finances and available time. I can not begin to relate how many benchwork-with-track layouts I've seen that don't advance at all year to year -- or the number of pseudo-hobbyists I have talked with that have never built even the simplest track arrangement but instead have been "planning" their layouts for years without ever taking a first step.

CNJ831

[Anonymous]

CNJ831,

I agree. I still have thoughts of a basement filling layout someday - but first I need to get a basement lol. In the interim I am working on a more modest project so if that "someday" never comes around I still will have a layout that runs and provides enjoyment.

Ben King is an excellent example of a smaller layout that provided its owner with years of enjoyment. His scratchbuilt structures were works of art!

[cwclark]

I read the article and somewhat agree with it except for the part about huge layouts..I've had small layouts in the past and to me, they were done in no time and became very boring after a few months of the completion of the layout...that is why i'm building a large layout this time...some of us don't want to get done with the layout...I find it challenging to build a large layout for the sake of the "building" aspect of the layout...I have thirty more years on this earth give or take a few years if the lord is willing to keep me around that long, and the building process keeps me busy for many years in something i really enjoy with many things to do before it is complete ...I guess it boils down to the individual and what they want...to me, the complexity of the building of the layout is just as important as the complexity of it's operation. that's why my layout is going to be large...it keeps my hands busy...I believe the planning stage is the most important part of the layout so that it does'nt become an "armchair" project or a distant pipe dream because the railroad was planned on immpossible or unachievable outcomes... .if the layout is well planned there should be no problem simplifying the complexity of an operation on the larger layout as an individual wants as compared to the complexity of as small of a layout the individual wants to achieve...Chuck[:D]

[Anonymous]

I toatally agree that layouts should be built within the scope of the builder's space,time, money and ability. I admire those layouts and hope to follow in thier footsteps.

[dragenrider]

I've been wrestling with this very problem. I have an opportunity to purchase an office trailer (similar to the one mentioned in the new MR) and start to build an extensive layout. My 12 x 4 is just too small. [:(]

The other side of the coin is that I've already had a huge layout. It was so overwhelming with all the things to be done, until nothing was ever finished! The expense to start over on a big layout will eat a hole through my monthly train budget. Is it worth it? [?] We only live once and that's the end of it. How can I allocate my time, money and resources effectively and continue to enjoy myself the most?

Maybe wisdom says I just need to add on to my current layout. That's cheaper and would prevent having to start over.

Still pondering it...[%-)]

[ClinchValleySD40]

I suppose it depends on what a person considers a large layout. And even if only large layouts were featured, you'd never know it by the pictures. Very rarely do we see a picture looking down an aisle or something more broad than a super close up of a town with a train passing through. Sorry, that really bugs me, I want to see at least one picture of what I would see when I walk into the train room.
Everyone should only model/build what they feel comfortable with, large or small. Time, money, obligations need to be considered when making your decision.

[Anonymous]

I have been in this very situation, grand designs yet nothing built! I even started a few benhworks, however I never even got to laying track because I moved. So after 20 years, I finally am building a layout. The first decision was to build it in modules. I settled on 2ft by 3ft as it could easily go through doorways. I have mapped the modules to available space and decided on an overall track plan. Now I have about 8 modules built with screening for mountains. These modules will allow me to run point to point and has a few sidings. The plan then is to put in scenery and structures for this area and as time and money permits- extend the operation. The point being that I will have something operating, something to create and yet I can eventually take over the basement!

Cheers,
Allen

[Fergmiester]

Allen [#welcome]

I think you definetly have the right idea, something I wish I had gone with is the module concept. If I had to move it would take a chain saw to dismantle the layout. I had my first operating session the other night, which was in itself a great motivator to get work done on the layout, that the size of my layout was as big as I should go as if I expanded any further I would loose te ability to maintain what I had let alone getting it finished. My plan is to build my layout over a period of several years. Bottom line is that I'm "getting it built".

Regards
Fergie

[Big_Boy_4005]

There's a lot of truth to all of this, and I speak from experience. I have always been one to create grand designs. I was in the process of getting started on a dream layout, when we decided to move. We designed the house with a large basement in mind. I ended up with almost 2000 square feet for trains, and that was less than half the basement. The time has come to build the layout, and I have a decent start. The plan is just right, it is all I could ever want. The problem is I think I need to form a club to get the job done. The project is just so large.

[fec153]

dragenrider- can your current layout be moved into the trailer? If so,move it and then expand it.
Fla.Phil

[cjcrescent]

I think that planning is really the most important part of building a layout. This should include more than just the track. It should include all aspects of construction. This was brought home to me when reading Linn Westcott's book on JA's Gorre & Daphetid. John had poured part of his base scenery in concrete after excavating part of the basement, and as such included extra wiring in the runs encased in concrete. These wires were for signals that he knew would not get to installing for many, many, years. He included them at that time because it was easier to go ahead and include them with the other wires, than to try and run wire after the layout was "ready" for signalling. I got the impression that his whole layout was planned and built like this.

[jfrank138]

Lots of wisdom in these posts! I would add one concept: Try to design a plan that can be added onto when and if time, energy, and finances permit. My O-scale basement empire is about 3 ft deep (varies a bit) and 27 ft long; it provides building and operating pleasure and if I never go further, so be it. On the other hand if I ever fini***his part I have a plan to expand it in stages to fill the basement. BTW the planning itself is pleasurable.
John

[Vampire]

Guess I'd better go downstairs and read that letter now! I too have fallen into the "building rut". It's not that my designed layout is huge (11x13' L-shaped) but it is a 3-level design due to the limited space and there are a few construction details that I'm not comfortable with yet, like the 6% ruling grade up to level 3. It's not very long but I'm still not sure if even my short trains can make that hill (at least with a single loco).

In my defense I did design the layout in modules so it could be moved when the time comes. Also I've been pre-occupied with work, health and home issues for awhile. Just aren't enough hours in the day sometimes. I read a quote from a poem while touring the Amish country in Pennsylvania this summer (Strasburg/Lancaster area). It read, "Those were the days that I could master, The pace was slow and I was faster".

Still, when I think about seeing that model Shay twisting around the hills with a short string of empty hoppers heading up to the mines my enthusiasm renews. Now time to do some reading and video watching!

[Fergmiester]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Vampire

Guess I'd better go downstairs and read that letter now! I too have fallen into the "building rut". It's not that my designed layout is huge (11x13' L-shaped) but it is a 3-level design due to the limited space and there are a few construction details that I'm not comfortable with yet, like the 6% ruling grade up to level 3. It's not very long but I'm still not sure if even my short trains can make that hill (at least with a single loco).

"Those were the days that I could master, The pace was slow and I was faster".

Don't fret! My ruling grades on the main line are 5% over a 3' length and depending which steam engine I'm hauling with I can haul between 10 an 60 cars. Double heading and pusher service are also options. It's not the best case scenario but as I have under/overpasses it's what I have to deal with. And looking at some of the rail beds in my neck of the woods it was a problem for some of real railways. The trick with grades is the easement. If you go into them gradually it will take some of the problems out of it and make it easier for you locos to keep their momentum and prevent them from jumping the track. I have a branchline with an 8% grade is on a 18" radius. I can haul 5 cars with an IHC mogul with some slippage or little slippage with a "Berk" or "Mike". It would be the perfect location for a 2-6-6-2.

Regards
Fergie

[Anonymous]

This is a great post and hits very close to home.

I've been looking forward to building a large layout for the past 30 years. We recently moved into a new home that has an unfinished bonus room over a 4 car garage. When I finally get that room completed ( insulated, sheet rock A/C & heating ), I hopefully won't be too old to have the energy to start the layout I've been dreaming about ever since my Dad set up our Lionels for Christmas back in Brooklyn when I was a kid.

I also plan to build in sections. All of the bench work will be completed first, but I'm going to concentrate on one scetion at a time. There will be spurs heading out into,,, " no mans land ", to keep the anticipation of the next phase fresh every time I enter that room![:D]

[joeh19012]

I thought I should reply to these postings. After I knew we were moving into a house with a basement--ahem, 20 years ago--I began planning for my "ultimate layout." As I read and planned, and planned and read, I discovered there were some things NOT to do--like build a layout in unfinished space, have no lighting, etc.

Well, getting a finished basement took a while, and when that was done, the size of the space was different. Back to the drawing board. I took my original (professionally designed) plan and clipped and squeezed it from about 216 sq ft overall to around 160 sq ft. Surprisingly, the overall track plan didn't change too much. I thought I had that done when I started looking at grades from one part of the layout to another. Back to the drawing board again. Finally--and recently--I read a post here or an article in MR that basically made the point "keep it simple." Other posts recommended building sections so the RR would be portable. Back to the drawing board.

I finally have a simplified, workable plan for creating sections (a bunch of them) in which no turnouts bridge a gap and which all will go through my 30" doorways flat. I still have my free standing L-girder support system from the second revision, and I am going to place my sections on top of it like an open grid system, bolting them together and using at least terminal strips to keep my wire buses connected. Unfortunately, about 40% of my turnouts (which I purchased over time) are the old style Walthers power-routing, DCC-hostile types. I may modify some of them.

Planning is important, but so is getting started. There are plenty of good excuses: helping kids with homework, taking your children to ball games and college tours, family vacations, walking the dog, and oh yeah, work. Now that I'm eligible for AARP, I hope I can get something up and running. I have the inventory, now I have to get the assembly line running. Good luck to the other armchair and reformed armchair folks out there--I hope you get going soon.

[jeffshultz]

I dunno if I'd want to build an "uberlayout" (I get to operate on the Siskiyou Lines, which generally cures me of that desire), but I do know that I want more than a 2x8 that I currently have. I want some switching, some interchange, and hopefully a bit of scenic running as well. But I don't want to need an entire crew to show up to run it either.

[SpaceMouse]

I have a 4 x 8 layout and although it would take me a year to finish it. I know I want more. Still, I know that the layout I'm planning will take in the 5 year range if I keep at it at my current pace. But I want something that can be worked by 4-6 people, because for me I think trains are better as a team sport.

[Anonymous]

I'm actually looking at building a 4X8 because I'm planning on moving in the next few months. when I finally do move the new house is supposed to have a rather large basement. I'm not building the 4x8 as a module, I'm building it as a stand alone track with an E-Z command station(Im getting a bigger system when I get the bigger layout started). It will have alot of hard curves and grades. it will be the test bed for all new trains:)

[jeffshultz]

One problem I have with the 4x8 shape is that it's a real pain to manuever out through doors and around corners, especially if it has any scenery on it.

As is, I'm in an apartment and my 2x8 layout will probably be going out the front window to the ground below to avoid having to negotiate the tight corner into the stairs.

[Anonymous]

/shrug I'm still in the drawing board stage, school just got out not to long ago and being unemployed seems to put a massive dent in the money you can spend on a layout.

[selector]

Jeff's wording struck me: "...some scenic running..." That is what would make a layout worthwhile for me. I now know that staging is a must, so building in a yard is the way to go if you don't want to go to the trouble of under-layout tracks or behind-wall tracks. That is a given for me. But I also want very much to see passenger trains and long coal drags snaking their way through bluffs, along rivers (a la Hudson, and Fraser) and into a string of tunnels. That can't be accomplished in 6 or 8'. So, the trick for me will be to find a better lit location (wife is pressing me to get the basement livable...finished), and then to have a main with runs exceeding 15'. (sigh!) A finished basement and a considerably larger layout are not going to happen anytime soon. Maybe next year.

[Anonymous]

OMG DO NOT make the basement livable or you'll see your layout shrink, she wants you to make it livable so she can take it over. basically all I'm saying is once a woman sees a finished basement she thinks 2 thinks either 1) hey I can store collectible,useless **** down here or 2) this is a good space for a den, then we can invite our friends over to play cards or stuff like that(she says our friends, she means hers not yours). so whatever you do, do not make the basement livable, heck make some pipes leak and tell her it'll cost some serious $$$ to fix, to scare her off.

[Anonymous]

O and "livable" to a man and a woman are 2 different things, get some heat, A/C down there, bare walls, cheap strip lighting. so make it "livable" to you not her.

[railroadyoshi]

I would say one of the worst parts is when you can solve 1 or 2 of the 4 roadblocks
(time, money, space and skill)
My parents are building a home with a 40x60 (perhaps larger) basement, but there is no way i can utilize that space with my allotted money, time, and my skill. I will still end up with a 10x20 space, which to me is an empire

[selector]

Yes, it is an empire....to be sure!! But, if it is at all practical, can you let them know now that you are interested in a sizeable portion of that basement? What I mean is, would they be amenable to ceding you a good 15 X 30' area with a view to future expansion? Of course, if you are likely to be moving out into the big world before long, it is all moot, no?

(Hint- Moms hate losing their sons, especially #1. So, if you were to...um,...lay it out for her, as in, "Mom, it sure would be a dream to have this super layout in your basement. If I were to move out, I wouldn't move far 'cuz I would need to get back here often to work on the layout and run my trains. Otherwise, I'll have to look in Spokane. They have basements there." [:D]

jadormdrache, LOL!! You are too right.

[Pruitt]

My layout falls into the "huge" category. I don't spend near the time on it that I need to, so it may never be mostly complete, but I am making slow progress.

I've built small layouts in the past, and if that's what one finds satisfying or interesting, that's fine. If space is limited that is certainly a constraining factor. But "instant gratification" seems to be the underlying rationale for a lot of the "small but finished" crowd.

For myself, I'm not going to build a layout that is too small for my tastes (as long as I have room to build more), just so I can get it done within a year. Chuck (cwclark) has a good point - how long until some of those "shake the plan" layouts that get finished quickly get boring to run?

Lots of "shoulds" here - should build within their time constraints, should build within their financial means, should build what can be completed in a reasonable time, etc. Who died and made all these "you should" addicts model railroading gods, anyway? As far as I'm concerned, there's only one "should:" Everyone should quit telling everyone else how to approach their leisure time activities. Pointing out pros and cons of large layouts vs. small. diesels vs. steamers, N scale vs. O scale, Digitrax vs. NCE, or whatever the topic, is perfectly fine. Telling everyone why the "should" do something a certain way, is not.

This is a hobby - approach it as that. Model Railroad your way, and don't bother with the "you should" crowd. If someone wants to tackle a layout that is way beyond their means, more power to them. The means are never static. What is over the horizon today is well behind you tomorrow.

[BRAKIE]

CNJ831,I agree that to many modeler bite off more then they can chew in building that super size dream layout and many may become discourage with the hobby and quit not realizing its not the hobby but,their own unrealistic goals due to their limited time,funds and other time consuming commitments.In my opinion the modeler should build a layout that fits their skill and time.Again in my opinion a small highly detailed layout beats a unfinished super layout..
Contrary to the popular belief a small layout needs not be become boring to operate..That is due to poor track planning due lack of understanding what a railroad does for a living or far worst following a track plan found in a magazine or layout book.[xx(][:(] Of course a large poorly plan super size layout is no better then a small poorly plan layout.[}:)]
So,design and build a layout that fits you and your skills,time and funds.[:D]
As for me I prefer the smaller highly detailed layout that can be operated solo or with 2-3 at the most and that is easily maintain.[:D]

[Jetrock]

I prefer building a small layout with expansion in mind. My current pike is only about half the square footage of a 4x8 plywood sheet, but both are modular components that can be easily expanded to become part of a greater whole. Most small layout designs can be built with this feature in mind--how hard is it to let the mainline run off one side of the layout?

Modular designs also have advantages when it comes to moving--if I move, I just unbolt my layout from the shelf I built for it to sit on, rather than having to take a chainsaw to it.

I don't have a great deal of time for modeling, so by building a small bit at a time I can finish a section and have the joy of completion (and showing off!) in far less time than would be required for the pike I eventually want to build.

[oleirish]

I agree with most here "keep it simple stuped" I've done large and small,current layout is a 34"X8' switching .My next is in the planing stage.It will be in three sections,two 4'X4' modules,with a 24" or 36"X4' in-between and vary moveable, and can be changed around some.Or added too.[^]

JIM