BRAKIE richhotrain I think that you guys are going down the wrong path. Wouldn't a better strategy be to hire a more skilled worker or give that worker better training? Rich That would be in their best interest for a quality product-along with a decent livable wage to ensure the worker won't quit for a better paying job.. Make millions in profit, give bonus to the directors while paying the workers low unlivable wages will result in unhappy and uncaring workers which means shoddy products.
richhotrain I think that you guys are going down the wrong path. Wouldn't a better strategy be to hire a more skilled worker or give that worker better training? Rich
I think that you guys are going down the wrong path. Wouldn't a better strategy be to hire a more skilled worker or give that worker better training?
Rich
That would be in their best interest for a quality product-along with a decent livable wage to ensure the worker won't quit for a better paying job..
Make millions in profit, give bonus to the directors while paying the workers low unlivable wages will result in unhappy and uncaring workers which means shoddy products.
Of course, on that theory, you might still get shoddy products because in spite of the better wage, the worker might still conclude that he or she is not paid enough, so what the heck, why not assemble a shoddy product?
I'm not buying that argument. I don't deny that some assembly workers in nearly every industry may be careless or uncaring or even malicious, but I don't think you can generalize to the extent that such a practice applies to every low wage worker in every industry.
Alton Junction
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
I don't want to get too deep in this "labor" debate, but it worked for Henry Ford. In 1914 Ford and the other auto companies paid about $2.50 a day to assembly line workers. Turnover was high and training was a major cost.
On October 27, 1914, after a meeting that shocked his management and board of directors, Ford doubled the daily wage to $5.00 - and the cost of production went down! - by 10 million dollars!
And Ford did believe in the theory that his workers should be able to aford his cars. The first model T sold for about $800 in 1908. By 1927 the price was only $260 , a result of volume and productivity.
Our trains will never benefit from the kind of volume production of other consumer goods as explained by others above - so higher quality would likely come at a high cost to the consumer.
I was speaking with one of the owners of Spring Mills Depot, a small upstart train manufacturer making B&O items mostly, for those who don't about them. Their RTR B&O cabooses cost $60.00 - they quality check EVERY car after it gets here from China - that's a lot of work!That's a big part of why they are $60.00.
Sheldon
zstripe richhotrain locoi1sa You can not expect to have a perfect product assembled by someone who will never be able to afford one himself. Pete, I was with you until you made that comment. Shame, shame. Rich Pete, No offense,to anyone, but I believe that statement is true,in regards,to where,most Models today,are assembled and I believe,that is what PETE,was trying to say. It had nothing to do with,the modeling skills of the purchaser. Maybe if the manufacturers would pay the assembler a decent wage, we may get a quality product, instead of hit or miss. But realistically,we know that is not going to happen,any time soon..The manufacturers,are surely not going to dig into they're profits,to make that happen,it will eventually be passed on to the consumer. If they make 2000,of the same item and have 200 lemon's,they are still ahead. This is my opinion, nothing more. Cheers, Frank
richhotrain locoi1sa You can not expect to have a perfect product assembled by someone who will never be able to afford one himself. Pete, I was with you until you made that comment. Shame, shame. Rich
locoi1sa You can not expect to have a perfect product assembled by someone who will never be able to afford one himself.
You can not expect to have a perfect product assembled by someone who will never be able to afford one himself.
Pete, I was with you until you made that comment. Shame, shame.
Pete,
No offense,to anyone, but I believe that statement is true,in regards,to where,most Models today,are assembled and I believe,that is what PETE,was trying to say. It had nothing to do with,the modeling skills of the purchaser. Maybe if the manufacturers would pay the assembler a decent wage, we may get a quality product, instead of hit or miss. But realistically,we know that is not going to happen,any time soon..The manufacturers,are surely not going to dig into they're profits,to make that happen,it will eventually be passed on to the consumer. If they make 2000,of the same item and have 200 lemon's,they are still ahead.
This is my opinion, nothing more.
Cheers,
Frank
I'm not sure what Pete was trying to say, but the way I read that comment, I can only conclude that Pete was saying that a factory worker who cannot afford to buy the very product he or she is assembling either will not or cannot assemble the product perfectly. That clearly suggests to me that a low paid worker, however you define low paid, is either too stupid or too malicious to assemble the product in the correct manner.
And, now, Frank, you have upped the ante by suggesting that if you pay the worker more, the worker will be more willing to assemble a perfect product.
zstripe Maybe if the manufacturers would pay the assembler a decent wage, we may get a quality product
Maybe if the manufacturers would pay the assembler a decent wage, we may get a quality product
dominic c I am relatively a newcomer and I do expect to buy a new engine and have it run perfectly right out of the box.
Joe C I'm a "old school modeler" but, at today's prices they better run perfectly from the box..
Rich,Expect? No, one should not "expect" flaws in any product. But then one should be realistic in one's expectations. To assume perfection out of hand-made products is illogical. To expect hobby items to be of equal in MTBFR compared to million dollar product development is way out there.
That's not to say we can't be disappointed when something is flawed. And it's not to say that we can't complain publically, return the item and demand our money back. But the one thing we can't do is to fairly compare our hobby items to mass market items. It makes no sense to do so.
Paul A. Cutler III
locoi1sa dominic cWith that said, to all the "old timers", who don't think twice to repair a new engine no matter how hard the fix, well I admire you guys. I have much respect for those who don't think twice to remove a damaged decoder or any other part. Or remove a perfectly good decoder with another. I have much respect for that. I wish I could do that. There's nothing worse than to receive an engine, put it on the track, and nothing. Now I have to call the manufacturer, get an RA#, send it out, and hope to God to get it back in 6-7 weeks hopefully fixed. So again hats off to "Old Timer's" that are young at heart. Joe I don't fix my NEW steamers because I like to do it. I agree that it should not be done at all. I fix mine because I don't want to wait 2 weeks or 2 months to have it come back with some other issue. I don't know who actually works on the locomotives turned in for repair but I assume it is not the guy on the phone. If there are a hundred locomotives out of thousands turned in for repair in a week and each one takes an hour to fix and ship back then more than one person is doing this work. I feel I can take the time to do a quality job and maybe while its apart I might as well lube the gear box and axle bearings where I am sure the warranty center will not take the time to do it. I feel being a model railroader one of the skills needed the most is being able to tinker with locomotives steam and diesel. Nothing is hard where you need expensive machinery and an engineering degree. The best tool for tinkering is common sense and an understanding of how it should work. It is a fact of life that not everything new is better and lasts longer. Deal with it the best you can. The best I can do is fix it and move on. You can not expect to have a perfect product assembled by someone who will never be able to afford one himself. Pete
dominic cWith that said, to all the "old timers", who don't think twice to repair a new engine no matter how hard the fix, well I admire you guys. I have much respect for those who don't think twice to remove a damaged decoder or any other part. Or remove a perfectly good decoder with another. I have much respect for that. I wish I could do that. There's nothing worse than to receive an engine, put it on the track, and nothing. Now I have to call the manufacturer, get an RA#, send it out, and hope to God to get it back in 6-7 weeks hopefully fixed. So again hats off to "Old Timer's" that are young at heart.
Joe
I don't fix my NEW steamers because I like to do it. I agree that it should not be done at all. I fix mine because I don't want to wait 2 weeks or 2 months to have it come back with some other issue. I don't know who actually works on the locomotives turned in for repair but I assume it is not the guy on the phone. If there are a hundred locomotives out of thousands turned in for repair in a week and each one takes an hour to fix and ship back then more than one person is doing this work. I feel I can take the time to do a quality job and maybe while its apart I might as well lube the gear box and axle bearings where I am sure the warranty center will not take the time to do it. I feel being a model railroader one of the skills needed the most is being able to tinker with locomotives steam and diesel. Nothing is hard where you need expensive machinery and an engineering degree. The best tool for tinkering is common sense and an understanding of how it should work. It is a fact of life that not everything new is better and lasts longer. Deal with it the best you can. The best I can do is fix it and move on. You can not expect to have a perfect product assembled by someone who will never be able to afford one himself.
Pete
I'm not quite sure why you directed your comment to mine. I think that's great that you have the ability and know how to repair even the newest of engines. I stated in my comment that you chose to omit that I will do maintenance on the engine like grease and oil. I feel the cost of the engine is to great for me to try and fix something that I may make worse. If it's minor work, I will take a stab at it. But again These high tech engines cost to much to, in your words, "tinker" with. You also pay for a warranty, that I don't want to ruin. And I stated in an earlier post on this thread that I have been lucky that when I have sent an engine out for repair, I have gotten the engine back good as new. And I totally disagree with you on your statement, " I feel being a model railroader one of the skills needed the most is being able to tinker with locomotives steam and diesel". That's the skill most needed? I think not. Skills like building benchwork, wiring and laying track, having an imagination to come up with beautiful scenery, that's the important skills needed. "Tinkering" with engines to me takes up valuable time that can be spent doing all the other fun things of model railroading. To me, being able to repair MAJOR items or replacing MAJOR items is just a bonus that you can enjoy. You know how I move on? I send out the engine for the needed repairs and go to my inventory and run something else. In some cases another engine just like the one having to be repaired. Unfortunately, I don't have your talents yet. Hopefully I will. But should model railroaders that don't have that luxury of doing big repairs get out of the hobby?. Read again what you wrote. Tell me that you didn't basically insult a big number of people that love this hobby and can't do what you feel is necessary to be a model railroader. You even insulted the people that try to help you the best they can. My God I paid people like yourself a complement and how do you thank me by basically insulting me.
Joe C
I pray every day I break even, Cause I can really use the money!
I started with nothing and still have most of it left!
Joe C,
Well said.
richhotrain zstripe Just My , some people, can actually fix, so called,'' lemons ''. Cheers, Frank Frank, I was referring to that remark as a "crack". I wasn't offended but I did take it as a put down to people who either lack the skill or the aptitude to fix certain things like MR locos. You have to be sensitive to other peoples skill set and willingness, or lack thereof, in taking on such projects. One thing that I notice about this forum is that, on occasion, and with certain members, there is a tendency to expect newer entrants in the hobby to have the same skills, craftsman skills as Sheldon calls it, that the "old timers" have. Of course, they developed those skills out of necessity in the days when so much more product was in kit form. Nowadays, one can be a competent modeler without the need or skill to "fix" things. Rich
zstripe Just My , some people, can actually fix, so called,'' lemons ''. Cheers, Frank
Just My , some people, can actually fix, so called,'' lemons ''.
Frank, I was referring to that remark as a "crack". I wasn't offended but I did take it as a put down to people who either lack the skill or the aptitude to fix certain things like MR locos. You have to be sensitive to other peoples skill set and willingness, or lack thereof, in taking on such projects.
One thing that I notice about this forum is that, on occasion, and with certain members, there is a tendency to expect newer entrants in the hobby to have the same skills, craftsman skills as Sheldon calls it, that the "old timers" have. Of course, they developed those skills out of necessity in the days when so much more product was in kit form. Nowadays, one can be a competent modeler without the need or skill to "fix" things.
I agree with Rich.
I am relatively a newcomer and I do expect to buy a new engine and have it run perfectly right out of the box. More so when I had purchased it from a reputable company than from someone off of Ebay. Though with Ebay, if I do get a lemon, I usually send it out for repairs than return it. If something needs a minor fix, I will dive in and try. I want to learn, But I am still apprehensive to take inner workings apart and try to mend them.
With that said, to all the "old timers", who don't think twice to repair a new engine no matter how hard the fix, well I admire you guys. I have much respect for those who don't think twice to remove a damaged decoder or any other part. Or remove a perfectly good decoder with another. I have much respect for that. I wish I could do that. There's nothing worse than to receive an engine, put it on the track, and nothing. Now I have to call the manufacturer, get an RA#, send it out, and hope to God to get it back in 6-7 weeks hopefully fixed. So again hats off to "Old Timer's" that are young at heart.
richhotrain but is it really unfair to compare an HO scale locomotive to a TV set, operating perfectly out of the box? C'mon, Paul, a TV set is a lot more complicated than a DC loco. Sure it is fair to expect a loco to be perfect out of the box.
My TV has whole lot less moving parts than my 2-8-8-2. My sister in law just returned her new TV for the third time. My neighbor has had the repairman out for his new washing machine several times and the last time a plastic hose blew off inside it and almost flooded his basement. How many recall notices do you get on your car? At least the HO scale steamer won't kill someone if it runs away.
Should we take this type of abuse? NO!!! Do we have a choice if we want something new? NO!!! A friend of mine never buys anything new. He figures the problems are already worked out by the time he gets them. He does not see it as inheriting other peoples problems. But he is like me in the fact that he can fix just about anything fixable. I feel a little safer with a warranty behind a product.
What Paul means is, if you could be almost guaranteed something very close to perfection, say with a return/rejection rate of only 1/100 in our very small market or cottage industry, which is what our hobby is by comparison to Sony, Hitachi, Ford, Moen, Coca Cola, etc,...would you be prepared to either pay $500 per locomotive (for all the extra care and pre-testing prior to packaging and shipping, and then more "dealer prep" at this end of the ocean), or to have to go without because nobody would bother working in the industry because it just doesn't pay?
IOW, it's really simple economics. Enough people will put up with the 10-15% fault rate because enough of those actually getting those faulty items are willing to return them and wait to get them back repaired, or to actually take it upon themselves to deal with the repairs. That mob is also only willing to pay $200/item, some discounted much more heavily as evinced by Sheldon and others who are scrupulously patient and disciplined about it.
-Crandell
Paul3 Rich,You simply cannot compare consumer products made for the billions of people in the mass market with hobby items made for, perhaps, a market of 140,000 HO modelers. I think it is absolutely unfair to even think about comparing mass market items to hobby items. It's like comparing regular people to Olympic athletes.
Rich,You simply cannot compare consumer products made for the billions of people in the mass market with hobby items made for, perhaps, a market of 140,000 HO modelers.
I think it is absolutely unfair to even think about comparing mass market items to hobby items. It's like comparing regular people to Olympic athletes.
Paul, let's turn that argument around a little.
Are you saying, then, that we should expect to purchase flawed items like locos and rolling stock? That we should be prepared to "fix" things ourselves before we enter the hobby?
And, it might be unfair to compare regular people to Olympic athletes, but is it really unfair to compare an HO scale locomotive to a TV set, operating perfectly out of the box? C'mon, Paul, a TV set is a lot more complicated than a DC loco. Sure it is fair to expect a loco to be perfect out of the box.
Rich,You simply cannot compare consumer products made for the billions of people in the mass market with hobby items made for, perhaps, a market of 140,000 HO modelers. TV sets and kitchen appliances are made by the millions every year while the typical run of a loco or car is around 5,000. The profits are huge with TV's and appliances backed up by large corporations with massive investments from Wall St. while the hobby manufacturers are scratching to fill the wheelbarrow. Home appliances are made in large factories with hundreds of employees using high-tech precision assembly robots. Model railroad items are made by hand by maybe a dozen factory workers. Look are Rapido. They have 4 or 5 North American employees and their Chinese factory doesn't have any robots as each part is applied by hand.I think it is absolutely unfair to even think about comparing mass market items to hobby items. It's like comparing regular people to Olympic athletes. "What do you mean you couldn't run and catch that bus? Usain Bolt can run 100 meters is 9.58 seconds. Why can't you?"
UP 4-12-2 For some of us, the diesel era with its flashy paint schemes is just plain more exciting than the steam era, and my father tells of the constant rain of soot all over Butler, PA, all over freshly washed clothes and even inside the houses. It doesn't sound like it was very pleasant air, or especially for those who had to clean the houses inside and out.
For some of us, the diesel era with its flashy paint schemes is just plain more exciting than the steam era, and my father tells of the constant rain of soot all over Butler, PA, all over freshly washed clothes and even inside the houses. It doesn't sound like it was very pleasant air, or especially for those who had to clean the houses inside and out.
LOL
Quick story.
When I was a kid, around 12 years old, we moved from an apartment to our first in Chicago, just west of the GTW main line by a few houses in 1955.
My mother would hang clothes out to dry on a clothes line in our back yard. Whenever she would hear the whistle of an oncoming steam engine, she would race out to the back yard to remove the clothes as quickly as possible. Within a few seconds, smoke would be passing overhead and soot raining down into the back yard. I found it greatly amusing at the time. I would race out the front door and run down the block just in time to see that steamer racing past our block headed out toward Indiana and beyond.
I know from my friend who is the sales manager of a very good train store that overall sales of steam engines have been waning in recent years--for a variety of reasons. Even as there will always be some who model the Pennsylvania Railroad, here right in the heart of Pennsy country, sales of PRR stuff are waning...they are not what they used to be.
More and more modelers simply want to buy what they see all the time today.
I suspect there will always be some steam, but more and more are opting to buy a "fantrip version" of something they like just to have one token steamer on the layout. Of course, when the UP Big Boy returns to operation...there will be another Big Boy sales increase, but the market for everything else....????
I thoroughly enjoyed the two factory refurbished BLI Y-6B's I owned, the last Athearn Genesis Big Boy (the weathered version) and the MTH 4-12-2's (had two of those along with a WP 4-8-4 and a Rio Grande Challenger)--but my youngest son simply got bored with them, even with all the sounds, smoke, and lights...so part of my decision to dieselize was to keep him interested...with the flashy diesels. I had no mechanical issues with those last, but far from cheap, steamers--none at all--they ran very well day in and day out, and long enough to wear some plating off in some cases before we sold them.
Contrary to previous reports, he does still like trains a little and does run them when he's home from school before I get home from work...just not everyday--but I always keep something on the mainline for him to run.
Rich,
My crack as you call it, was a fact for me,not a personal attack to anyone,that it appears,to be the way you took it. I enjoy a challenge,whether it be a model, toy, piece of machinery,trk part,it is not everyone's cup of tea. I do agree though,that it would be frustrating to spend x amount of dollars,for something that winds up being a so called Lemon. But from my stand point, I would not be in that position to begin with, I really do not need,all the whistle's and bell's,on any product,not just toy trains.
My youngest Son,used to always want me to buy a truck,with all the fancy chrome and all the whistles and bells.. My simple answer was,I don't want to spend my off time,polishing chrome,or fixing the whistle's and bells. I want a truck that is dependable and will perform,it's everyday function, not how good it looks and the horn should be on this side and that should be on that side, etc. Forget about it..
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Let me approach this topic from a different point of view. At prices that I, and many others are willing to pay, I don't hold out much hope for out of the box perfection.
Let me approach this topic from a different point of view.
At prices that I, and many others are willing to pay, I don't hold out much hope for out of the box perfection.
But you should. No matter how much you or I or anyone else ultimately pays, when you look at what these locos retail for, including Bachmann and BLI, there should be perfection out of the box.
Our flat screen TVs work perfectly out of the box, so do our kitchen appliances, why not our model railroad locos?
I for one am not willing to pay Marklin/Trix prices, or MTH prices, even at normal "discounts".
And Marklin seems to be just hanging on, and MTH seems to have as many quality problems as any body else.
For me, I've had a 75% rate of issues with BLI
My only one that hasn't given me issues is a DCC-ready C30-7.
Sound/DCC C30-7: First a speaker went out really early, now the horn causes the loco to quit when F8 is active. I think this is an electronics issue
Sound/DCC NW2 #1: dies when direction reverses. Bad electronics for sure. Also derailed a lot before tinkering. ditched the QSI in favor of a normal decoder.
Sound/DCC NW2 #2: derailed a lot before tinkering. headlight went out as well.
Vincent
Wants: 1. high-quality, sound equipped, SD40-2s, C636s, C30-7s, and F-units in BN. As for ones that don't cost an arm and a leg, that's out of the question....
2. An end to the limited-production and other crap that makes models harder to get and more expensive.
Received a new HO scale BLI SW7 diesel switcher last spring, turned out to be defective. I'm no expert, but I think it was a decoder or wiring issue. After two failed factory warranty repairs I asked for and received an exchange, an NW2 diesel switcher. So far the replacement seems okay, though not as smooth a runner as my early 90s Kato NW2. Maybe with some tinkering the BLI switcher can be a better runner, but will wait and see how it pans out. BTW, at my request BLI pre-paid the shipping cost two out of three.
I realize that a $200 model locomotive has little in common with a new vehicle costing thousands. but back in the 80s I bought a new Ford, right off it had a rear main seal leak. After three failed warranty repairs and with more problems popping up due to the repairs I asked for an exchange, didn't get one. Took my lumps and traded it in, but not on another Ford.
regards, Peter
richhotrain Well, then, my beef is with Frank who made the crack. And I repeat. Some people can fix a lemon, some cannot, and most don't really want to, and why should they? You spend a couple of hundred bucks or more to buy a product, you expect it to work. Craftsman? Give me a break. Rich
Well, then, my beef is with Frank who made the crack.
And I repeat.
Some people can fix a lemon, some cannot, and most don't really want to, and why should they?
You spend a couple of hundred bucks or more to buy a product, you expect it to work.
Craftsman? Give me a break.
Rich, no offense intended to how anyone else enjoys model trains, but from day one, in 1968, when my father first showed me how to build a Silver Streak wood freight car kit, this hobby has been at least 50% about building models for me - not just buying them.
And, yes, based on the comments of my peers and the praise from my customers, I am a craftsman. In the areas of home design and construction, model trains, and automotive restoration, just to name a few.
Frank and I both come from the "craftsman" era of the hobby, we don't really mean to be "flip" about it.
We don't like having to "fix" brand new stuff that was supposed to be RTR, but being pragmatic, fixing them gets the desired result if you know how to do it - you don't "settle" for poor performance or a different model, or spend time and money on shipping, etc.
This is again why I consider Bachmann a much better "value" overall. Their prices are generally lower, the problems, when there are problems, tend to be minor, easy fixes that don't leave my workbench unresolved - OR - Bachmann replaces them without even a blink. And yes sometimes they don't have the same loco, but for the few I have had to return they have done pretty well.
Remember BLI did not even have parts to fix my Mikados, and made no offer of any other kind of help - others on here have related similar stories.
So your same psychology applies, I would rather buy a $120 Bachmann 2-8-4, add a little weight and a few details, tune up the drive a little while it is apart, as opposed to buying a $275 loco from BLI, have to remove the sound system I don't want, and STILL run a moderately high risk of a poor running drive that will require work or need to be returned.
I just bought another Spectrum 2-10-2 this week - new in the box - at a bargin price - $75 - runs perfect.
After I sell the worthless decoder it will be effectively $5 or $10 cheaper. Then I will swap around some parts I already have, letter it ATLANTIC CENTRAL, and the fleet grows.
Score:
Bachmann steam - 30
BLI/PCM steam - 6 (4 of which now have Bachmann tenders)
Proto steam - 4
Mantua steem - 2 (one with a Bachmann tender)
Athearn steam - 1
Rivarossi steam - 1
BUT, I will admit, most of the prototypes made by BLI don't even interest me at all. Most are too big, to west coast, or too PRR.
zstripe ATLANTIC CENTRAL zstripe Just My , some people, can actually fix, so called,'' lemons ''. Cheers, Frank That would be me, and my two BLI USRA Heavy Mikados that I had to strip all the way down to the frame and drivers and rebuild like building a Bowser kit. Both had wobbly, out of quarter drivers, binding side rods, etc. Both run very nice now, and are sporting Athearn Genesis Delta trailing trucks and Bachmann Spectrum long tenders (and no sound or DCC). Sheldon Sheldon, Just like my youngest,Son,used to say,'' We fix-em,anything''. His most favorite line,to me,while I was working in the garage,would be, '' Hey ! Dad '', my thought would be,,Now what? But it was fun. No sound or DCC, Thank You. Cheers, Frank
ATLANTIC CENTRAL zstripe Just My , some people, can actually fix, so called,'' lemons ''. Cheers, Frank That would be me, and my two BLI USRA Heavy Mikados that I had to strip all the way down to the frame and drivers and rebuild like building a Bowser kit. Both had wobbly, out of quarter drivers, binding side rods, etc. Both run very nice now, and are sporting Athearn Genesis Delta trailing trucks and Bachmann Spectrum long tenders (and no sound or DCC). Sheldon
That would be me, and my two BLI USRA Heavy Mikados that I had to strip all the way down to the frame and drivers and rebuild like building a Bowser kit. Both had wobbly, out of quarter drivers, binding side rods, etc.
Both run very nice now, and are sporting Athearn Genesis Delta trailing trucks and Bachmann Spectrum long tenders (and no sound or DCC).
Sheldon,
Just like my youngest,Son,used to say,'' We fix-em,anything''. His most favorite line,to me,while I was working in the garage,would be, '' Hey ! Dad '', my thought would be,,Now what? But it was fun. No sound or DCC, Thank You.
That is pretty much of a flip response, guys, don't ya think?