Thanks to all the guys who responded to my thread on BLI locomotive breakdowns. I agree that their service department makes a fairly good effort to keep up with things but they have produced a few foul ups too. My Reading T-1 came back from one servicing totally unable to hold the tracks. An inspection revealed that they had left the springs off of the leading pair of drivers and the pony truck. Luckily I had some driver springs that I could install and I improvised a pony truck spring as well. My C&O T-l came back from an internal mechanism repair with a new trailing truck added. Since the trailing truck is free floating with no wires or other contacts I couldn't quite follow that move. Three separate service cycles have failed to resolve my J-1s intermittent headlight and sound problem. I'm left with the thought that they must be taking a terrible beating on the bottom line because of all these quality issues, not to mention the threat to their reputation in the industry and hobby. I'm actually having better luck buying used brass engines which are simple enough that a non-techie life me can service them in house.
I just received my new BLI Northern 4-8-4 ATSF today. I hope I don't have any problems with it. Last year I got a PRR M1a and it derailed once, and the whole thing was fried. They repaired it and apparently they replaced everything in the tender, due to shorting issue that fried everything. Ever since then, its been running great and very happy with it.
I haven't tried this new one yet, will get to that later tonight. But I went to their website and registered it with an extended 2 year warranty. If you don't, you only get a 1 year warranty.
Michael
CEO- Mile-HI-RailroadPrototype: D&RGW Moffat Line 1989
I hear that there is only one guy doing repairs. I forget his name right now. He a really nice guy but he must be swamped. Especially with all the new releases. I guess I've been lucky when it comes to repairs. When my serviced engine returns it's fixed.
Joe C
There used to be two guys who did the repairs. I forget their names, but I do recall two different guys.
The use of springs on the pilot truck and the trailing truck is a favorite repair technique on BLI steamers. It seems to work, but it also seems that there should be a better way to keep those trucks on the rails.
I had a lot of problems with two Santa Fe steamers, a 2-10-2 and a 2-10-4, but the springs seeemed to fix the problem.
In my experience, if a BLI steamer works out of the box, it remains a good runner. If a BLI steamer has preformance problems out of the box, return it immediately to the vendor for a refund, not BLI for repairs. Once a lemon, always a lemon.
I do like BLI locomotives, but that is the reality of the situation.
Rich
Alton Junction
JimValleThree separate service cycles have failed to resolve my J-1s intermittent headlight and sound problem.
Jim.
If your J1 is like mine there are a couple of places to check. The first is to remove the front truck and tighten the screw under it. The next is to check for flash or bits of plastic left over from the molding process in the connector to the loco. I had to clean out one of mine with a pin vice and drill bit. Next is to check the other end of the tether. Inside the tender they wire tie the tether to the decoder. One of mine was so tight it cut through the wires. This is why I have extra tethers.
If you can tinker with brass you can definitely tinker with plastic.
Pete
I pray every day I break even, Cause I can really use the money!
I started with nothing and still have most of it left!
Steam locomotives, real or model, always require more special care and maintenance.
That is reality.
I experienced only minor issues with more than a half dozen BLI steamers.
However, since I find diesels to be easier to live with, I have replaced all steam locomotives on my layout.
My new BLI Paragon E6, E7 and E8 diesels all run just fine, with no issues other than the engine idle becomes mind-numbing to listen to, and the kids and wife complain about the sound, so I turned the diesel sound level way down, and everyone is happy now.
UP 4-12-2 Steam locomotives, real or model, always require more special care and maintenance. That is reality. I experienced only minor issues with more than a half dozen BLI steamers. However, since I find diesels to be easier to live with, I have replaced all steam locomotives on my layout.
Interesting, I have considered doing the exact same thing,
richhotrain There used to be two guys who did the repairs. I forget their names, but I do recall two different guys. The use of springs on the pilot truck and the trailing truck is a favorite repair technique on BLI steamers. It seems to work, but it also seems that there should be a better way to keep those trucks on the rails. I had a lot of problems with two Santa Fe steamers, a 2-10-2 and a 2-10-4, but the springs seeemed to fix the problem. In my experience, if a BLI steamer works out of the box, it remains a good runner. If a BLI steamer has preformance problems out of the box, return it immediately to the vendor for a refund, not BLI for repairs. Once a lemon, always a lemon. I do like BLI locomotives, but that is the reality of the situation. Rich
Always interesting, in many cases the first thing I do to many steam locos is remove the factory springs on trailing trucks and pilot trucks. Not always, it depends a little on the exact design, but generally I find them not needed and a they reduce pulling power.
As for once a lemon always a lemon, I would apply that to most brands, not just BLI - maybe they learned that at BACHMANN a long time ago - that's why they mostly just give out new locos.
I have fixed a few lemons, but I don't have tons of faith in manufacturer service departments doing so. And from the stuff I read on here over the years, BLI tries very hard, but still fails a fair amount of the time.
I find that most of these models have built in design flaws that are easy to fix.
Example - early runs of READING T-1 from BLI/PCM seemed tail heavy and the tender drawbar would not work in the close coupled position - it rubbed the tender frame. I filed off the area of the frame that interfered with the drawbar, and added about 3 oz of weight in the big empty space in the smokebox (clearly left open for the future smoking version - gee wiz). That balanced the loco and made it run perfectly.
I wonder how many of them they got back with complaints about those two items?
Sheldon
JimValle Thanks to all the guys who responded to my thread on BLI locomotive breakdowns. I agree that their service department makes a fairly good effort to keep up with things but they have produced a few foul ups too. My Reading T-1 came back from one servicing totally unable to hold the tracks. An inspection revealed that they had left the springs off of the leading pair of drivers and the pony truck. Luckily I had some driver springs that I could install and I improvised a pony truck spring as well. My C&O T-l came back from an internal mechanism repair with a new trailing truck added. Since the trailing truck is free floating with no wires or other contacts I couldn't quite follow that move. Three separate service cycles have failed to resolve my J-1s intermittent headlight and sound problem. I'm left with the thought that they must be taking a terrible beating on the bottom line because of all these quality issues, not to mention the threat to their reputation in the industry and hobby. I'm actually having better luck buying used brass engines which are simple enough that a non-techie life me can service them in house.
I stopped purchasing BLI after the Daylight GS4's came out about three years ago. One of my two GS4's became a dust collector on my desk and the other one had Soundtraxx installed to replace the BLI sound. The end result was better for the new sound decoder but the model has too many problems with voltage pick up and intermittent shorts. Several of my friends experienced the same types of problems with that particular model, but I would hope some of those models did run OK and are on layouts bringing some joy to the owners.
From what I am told, others seem to run great.
CZ
I'm happy to report, that the new BLI Northern 4-8-4 I just received yesterday. Is good, real good. I tested everything and she runs perfectly fine. Wheewee. Hope it stays that way.
Motley I'm happy to report, that the new BLI Northern 4-8-4 I just received yesterday. Is good, real good. I tested everything and she runs perfectly fine. Wheewee. Hope it stays that way.
Michael, congrats, you should be good.
I will repeat my earlier comment in case you missed it.
richhotrain Motley I'm happy to report, that the new BLI Northern 4-8-4 I just received yesterday. Is good, real good. I tested everything and she runs perfectly fine. Wheewee. Hope it stays that way. Michael, congrats, you should be good. I will repeat my earlier comment in case you missed it. In my experience, if a BLI steamer works out of the box, it remains a good runner. If a BLI steamer has preformance problems out of the box, return it immediately to the vendor for a refund, not BLI for repairs. Once a lemon, always a lemon. Rich
Just like your thumper and my 9 Spectrum USRA heavy Mountains that run perfectly?
Again, that theory applies to all these things.
Sheldon, yes, I agree.
The term "lemon" applies to a lot of things, not only model railroad locomotives, but also other mechanical and electrical objects like automobiles, appliances, etc.
If something starts out as faulty, it seems to remain faulty. One element gets repaired and another one fails.
I have had this happen with automobiles, kitchen appliances, etc.
richhotrainIn my experience, if a BLI steamer works out of the box, it remains a good runner. If a BLI steamer has preformance problems out of the box, return it immediately to the vendor for a refund, not BLI for repairs. Once a lemon, always a lemon.
Not necessarily. My PCM (BLI) I1sa broke the axle gear. One day it was fine the next was not. Just like the P2K, Athearn, Atlas and other axle gears.
Newer runs of diesels may run good and be more reliable than model steam locomotives but they have fewer moving parts. Maintenance of the prototype steamers were massive. Heating and cooling cycles, sediments and contaminants in the water, Friction, and wear from use. The prototype were living and breathing machines built to strict tolerances. Our models are mass produced loosely fitted and sometimes not well designed.
It is not just BLI steamers that have issues. I have a Spectrum 2-8-0 that has been rebuilt twice and still has problems. My P2K 2-8-8-2 is one of the worst running locos I own. One of my P2K 0-6-0 broke some wires from the draw bar and the other the draw bar just fell apart one op session. For the price of those P2K locos I could have bought brass. Three guys in the club have the Athearn Mike and all three had to be rewired and one had the rear driver center section break apart for no apparent reason.
So here is my take on this issue. 7 BLI that 3 had issues. 3 Spectrum that 2 had major problems and one too light to pull anything. 3 P2K steamers that all had issues, and 3 Athearn with 3 problems.
Like the old bumper sticker I had with a picture of the UP Big boy that said "If you can't run with a big boy then stay in the shop"
Don't get me started on brass.
Rich,
Although I've had my share of BLI steamers that needed minor repairs and/or tweaks, the "lemon factor" has not really pertained to me. Once the repairs were made by BLI, only one needed to be sent in a 2nd* time. (*The 2nd trip was for a different issue.) The other repaired models have all run just fine.
Since most of my purchases for locomotives have been online, mailing the locomotive directly into BLI for repair seemed more logical to me than just mailing it back to the vendor. I reasoned that having direct contact with BLI and explaining to them (via e-mail) the problem(s) I was experiencing with the locomotive would hopefully help them out in the long-run to understand what quality issues needed to be addressed with their own particular manufacturing outfit.
Now, whether that has really helped BLI at all?...I have no idea. All of my BlI steamers have had only minor issues. If the problem was bad enough though, I might consider sending it back to the vendor for either a replacement or a refund. Since I'm buying railroad specific models (NYC), most of the time I'd rather have the unit repaired.
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
locoi1sa richhotrainIn my experience, if a BLI steamer works out of the box, it remains a good runner. If a BLI steamer has preformance problems out of the box, return it immediately to the vendor for a refund, not BLI for repairs. Once a lemon, always a lemon. Not necessarily. My PCM (BLI) I1sa broke the axle gear. One day it was fine the next was not.
Not necessarily. My PCM (BLI) I1sa broke the axle gear. One day it was fine the next was not.
Pete, was that axle gear broke when you took the loco new out of the box?
Or did the axle break later, and after how much running time?
tstage richhotrainIn my experience, if a BLI steamer works out of the box, it remains a good runner. If a BLI steamer has preformance problems out of the box, return it immediately to the vendor for a refund, not BLI for repairs. Once a lemon, always a lemon. Rich, Although I've had my share of BLI steamers that needed minor repairs and/or tweaks, the "lemon factor" has not really pertained to me. Once the repairs were made by BLI, only one needed to be sent in a 2nd* time. (*The 2nd trip was for a different issue.)
Although I've had my share of BLI steamers that needed minor repairs and/or tweaks, the "lemon factor" has not really pertained to me. Once the repairs were made by BLI, only one needed to be sent in a 2nd* time. (*The 2nd trip was for a different issue.)
Well, then, it wasn't a "lemon".
My point is that if the loco is a "lemon", it will show its true color (yellow - - - LOL) if it needs continuing repairs, for the same problem or another problem.
Not all locos with a problem right out of the box are lemons, but a problem right out of the box is a sign of potential trouble down the line.
richhotrainMy point is that if the loco is a "lemon", it will show its true color (yellow - - - LOL) if it needs continuing repairs, for the same problem or another problem.
I agree with you there, Rich.
richhotrainOr did the axle break later, and after how much running time?
The loco was four years old when the gear broke. Like I said one day it was running great and over night the next morning it developed the hitch in its step. It cost me $5 for the gear and about an hours time to replace it. It probably had about 50 to 75 hours of run time with and without heavy loads at that time. Except for my T1 all my BLI steamers get run at least once or twice a week that all of them has worn the plating off the wheels. My Blueline (BLI) M1b has never seen the back shop for class repairs and it must be at least 7 years old with hundreds of run time hours. Wheel cleaning and a quick lube is all that it has received since new.
I hope this doesn't jinx me but I just took inventory of my BLI roster and I tallied 31 locomotives going all the way back to the first J-1 Hudson model #001 back in... 2001? I have never had to return any of them
The only "issues" I've had with any of these engines has been the reed switch "chuff sensor" on two certain NYC Hudsons and the occasional "lost" program of the decoder requiring a factory reset. I have changed out the QSI upgrade chips on four engines with excellent results.
Overall, I think BLI has been a huge asset to the hobby and has given us some fantastic values when you consider what was available in the past. I have a handful of brass engines that will forever be display pieces since I don't have the ambition to paint, decal, re-wire, and install DCC & sound when I can get an R-T-R BLI engine for a comparitively paltry sum.
Based on my experience I would recommend BLI to anyone...
Take care, ED
Just My , some people, can actually fix, so called,'' lemons ''.
Cheers,
Frank
gmpullman I hope this doesn't jinx me but I just took inventory of my BLI roster and I tallied 31 locomotives going all the way back to the first J-1 Hudson model #001 back in... 2001? I have never had to return any of them The only "issues" I've had with any of these engines has been the reed switch "chuff sensor" on two certain NYC Hudsons and the occasional "lost" program of the decoder requiring a factory reset. I have changed out the QSI upgrade chips on four engines with excellent results. Overall, I think BLI has been a huge asset to the hobby and has given us some fantastic values when you consider what was available in the past. I have a handful of brass engines that will forever be display pieces since I don't have the ambition to paint, decal, re-wire, and install DCC & sound when I can get an R-T-R BLI engine for a comparitively paltry sum. Based on my experience I would recommend BLI to anyone... Take care, ED
Here Here
But I also want to add that though I wholeheartedly agree with Ed, I can't say that I never had to return an engine to BLI. I have slightly more BLI engines than ED. I also have had to send many to BLI for repairs. But were I've been lucky is that once I got the engine back, it was fixed and never had to be sent back a second time.
zstripe Just My , some people, can actually fix, so called,'' lemons ''. Cheers, Frank
That would be me, and my two BLI USRA Heavy Mikados that I had to strip all the way down to the frame and drivers and rebuild like building a Bowser kit. Both had wobbly, out of quarter drivers, binding side rods, etc.
Both run very nice now, and are sporting Athearn Genesis Delta trailing trucks and Bachmann Spectrum long tenders (and no sound or DCC).
Which is wonderful if one has the time, patience, still steady hands, and skills needed to do the work properly.
As for me...it was easier to dieselize, but I know that won't work for most folks--and I'm not advocating that it should--only stating that is my "reality".
This particular forum is so busy that even the most recent postings end up 'way back on pages three, four and five. A fresh posting does a better job of keeping the topic alive and, just to prove it, posting II has a lot more respondents with lots more good feedback. Check it out!
Call me paranoid, but my fear is that we will eventually go through a period where the majority of modelers and manufacturers dieselize due to these issues. Athearn had no to almost no steam forever.
There was a long long (long) period where a rich diversity of plastic steam was simply nowhere to be found.
It seems at least possible, that if enough people get fed up with poor quality control and the ridiculous amount of rebuilding that one sometimes has to do, there will be very little to no steam sold, eventually.
For the money these items cost, even with SOME expected tinkering to do, it's really, in my view, inexcusable.
I have to admit that even I've been buying more diesels lately even though my original intent was an all steam R.R.
I know that I won't ever be steam-less at least 50/50 s/d, but BLI's continuing issues HAVE kept me from going through the hassle of repairs/returns when locos are produced in such limited/pre-order batches these days and if it goes missing in shipping, I might never find another and certainly don't look forward to being forced to make the effort (again and again).
BLI in particular needs to fix this. I agree that Spectrum's replace policy is more satisfactory and their life time warrantee really persuades me to spend my money with them more often.
I have MRC versions of Athearn's Big Boy and Challenger and I've always got one eye on 'em. I think the Big Boy's decoder is finally flipping it's lid. I hope not. Just sitting there buzzing. I'll have to get it on a program track to see what's up.
I have pre-ordered my lst Proto 2000 GN F7s. (another thing I swore i'd never do!) Hope they behave themselves.
I absolutely love and in most cases, prefer steam but I'm beginning to feel steam shy...
Jim
Raised on the Erie Lackawanna Mainline- Supt. of the Black River Transfer & Terminal R.R.
It's a little aside of the topic, Jim, but Athearn has produced at least four different steamers in the past four or five years if I recall correctly. I think there was a skyline cased mountain type for SP, or something like it, plus the Challengers, Big Boys, and the FEF's.
The steamer market is slowly going the way of the Dodo. No, not in ten or twenty years, but maybe thirty? Modern diesels are very compelling for the younger set in the hobby, and few enter the hobby as youngsters wanting more than Thomas for steam; they want the monster diesels they see. When MTH and Heritage steam are so expensive, I think Bachmann and BLI are well-placed to serve the needs and desires of steam fans who have few options except brass otherwise for what those needs and desires are. Apart from a very few cases where the complaints are justifiably loud because of an engine having to go back three times, or because they have run out and must offer something you don't want in exchange, those companies put out a good product. Almost all of us providing our evidence here seem to have rather good purchase experiences, including with the odd repair.
Mind you, I don't buy BLI engines unless they have landed at their repair facilty because I won't pay their prices, even discounted 20%. That means my less costly purchases are repaired and run well....already.
-Crandell
ATLANTIC CENTRAL zstripe Just My , some people, can actually fix, so called,'' lemons ''. Cheers, Frank That would be me, and my two BLI USRA Heavy Mikados that I had to strip all the way down to the frame and drivers and rebuild like building a Bowser kit. Both had wobbly, out of quarter drivers, binding side rods, etc. Both run very nice now, and are sporting Athearn Genesis Delta trailing trucks and Bachmann Spectrum long tenders (and no sound or DCC). Sheldon
Sheldon,
Just like my youngest,Son,used to say,'' We fix-em,anything''. His most favorite line,to me,while I was working in the garage,would be, '' Hey ! Dad '', my thought would be,,Now what? But it was fun. No sound or DCC, Thank You.
zstripe ATLANTIC CENTRAL zstripe Just My , some people, can actually fix, so called,'' lemons ''. Cheers, Frank That would be me, and my two BLI USRA Heavy Mikados that I had to strip all the way down to the frame and drivers and rebuild like building a Bowser kit. Both had wobbly, out of quarter drivers, binding side rods, etc. Both run very nice now, and are sporting Athearn Genesis Delta trailing trucks and Bachmann Spectrum long tenders (and no sound or DCC). Sheldon Sheldon, Just like my youngest,Son,used to say,'' We fix-em,anything''. His most favorite line,to me,while I was working in the garage,would be, '' Hey ! Dad '', my thought would be,,Now what? But it was fun. No sound or DCC, Thank You. Cheers, Frank
That is pretty much of a flip response, guys, don't ya think?
Some people can fix a lemon, some cannot, and most don't really want to, and why should they?
You spend a couple of hundred bucks or more to buy a product, you expect it to work.
Frank and I both come from the "craftsman" era of the hobby, we don't really mean to be "flip" about it.
We don't like having to "fix" brand new stuff that was supposed to be RTR, but being pragmatic, fixing them gets the desired result if you know how to do it - you don't "settle" for poor performance or a different model, or spend time and money on shipping, etc.
This is again why I consider Bachmann a much better "value" overall. Their prices are generally lower, the problems, when there are problems, tend to be minor, easy fixes that don't leave my workbench unresolved - OR - Bachmann replaces them without even a blink. And yes sometimes they don't have the same loco, but for the few I have had to return they have done pretty well.
Remember BLI did not even have parts to fix my Mikados, and made no offer of any other kind of help - others on here have related similar stories.
So your same psychology applies, I would rather buy a $120 Bachmann 2-8-4, add a little weight and a few details, tune up the drive a little while it is apart, as opposed to buying a $275 loco from BLI, have to remove the sound system I don't want, and STILL run a moderately high risk of a poor running drive that will require work or need to be returned.
I just bought another Spectrum 2-10-2 this week - new in the box - at a bargin price - $75 - runs perfect.
After I sell the worthless decoder it will be effectively $5 or $10 cheaper. Then I will swap around some parts I already have, letter it ATLANTIC CENTRAL, and the fleet grows.
Score:
Bachmann steam - 30
BLI/PCM steam - 6 (4 of which now have Bachmann tenders)
Proto steam - 4
Mantua steem - 2 (one with a Bachmann tender)
Athearn steam - 1
Rivarossi steam - 1
BUT, I will admit, most of the prototypes made by BLI don't even interest me at all. Most are too big, to west coast, or too PRR.