QUOTE: Originally posted by rexhea Unless a person is only looking at a layout as a novelty, I think it's a mistake to purchase a system that cannot be power expanded or have the capabilities that you may want in the future--regardless of cost
QUOTE: Originally posted by enduringexp Nothing that I have read so far states the power level, including the Bachmann site. If it is indeed incapable of running 10 locos (or a little less) on it's own, that is a severe limitation. Where did some of you get the more detailed info on this?
QUOTE: Originally posted by rrinker Originally posted by pedromorgan Perfect so long as you never aquire more than 10. Having more than 10 locos is elitist? Please...). Having more than 10 locos in not elitist. Saying that a system has no value because it does not accommodate more than 10 locos IS ELITIST. There are many things used by the advanced modeler that I will never use. I don't discount the value of those things just because I will never use them. I believe the hobby has room for equipment appealing to all levels of experience and budget. -Jerry Reply JerryZeman Member sinceJanuary 2001 From: US 117 posts Posted by JerryZeman on Sunday, October 3, 2004 8:55 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by enduringexp Why does everyone against it keep saying it is for a SMALL home layout. I don't quite understand, but what does size have to do with it? If I have 5 locos running on a 4X8 or 5 locos running on a 25X40, what's the difference in DCC requirements? I would think (a stretch as I know little about DCC) that number of locos operated plus number of stationary DCC accessories dictates whether or not a system will work. Am I at least correct on that part? If I have 5 locos, NO DCC accessories, and no sound, do I NEED more to run my layout, or is more merely a luxury? Is "more" like buying a Ford Chateau Van now while you are single because you might get married and have a ton of kids later? Also, to those that voted #1, you actually have that large of a home layout? This poll is for home layouts, not clubs, etc. Is it 100% yours, or is it a joint venture with other modelers, thereby making it more of a club style layout? Since I voted in this poll, I think I'll chime in. For starters, yes, I have a large home layout. Is it a joint venture with other modelers? That depends on your perspective. Very few people have the time, or the talents to complete a large home railroad in isolation. From a monetary aspect, I bought and paid for everything on the RR. From a work standpoint, I trade horsepower-hours with a few close friends. One of my friends is really good at kitbashing structures. I hate it. I'm real good at spray painting and scenery. I paint his motive power, and have sceniced part of his railway. I've looked at the ad for Bachman's offerings. Intruiging, but definitely NOT for a large layout, or in my opinion, a medium sized layout. Here is why: 1. You can't walk around with your train. At least from the ad, it doesn't appear that this throttle will roam out of the range of its power tether. 2. 1 AMP simply isn't enough power. I've got some old Tenshodo and United articulateds with open frame motors to which I added DCC decoders, and they pull appx. 3/4 amp EACH under load. MU a couple of old Athearn diesels together, and you have hit the limit. 3. Point well taken about accessory decoders. I've wired my extension with NCE Switch-It decoders, as opposed to creating panels. The jury is still out on whether or not it was a wise move. I'm not knocking Bachman's offerings, just giving my perspective on its limitations. I do however feel that there are better offerings out there, with more flexibility (and more expense) for those with medium sized layouts and larger. regards, Jerry Zeman Reply hminky Member sinceJanuary 2003 From: Dover, DE 1,313 posts Posted by hminky on Sunday, October 3, 2004 8:54 AM It appears there is a paste on area where you write the locomotive the button controls, did any one look at the advertisements. I think it is a perfect small layout beginner system. Wholesale trains has it for $53 dollars, I am sure most people have that much invested in equipment and kits they will never use or build. Just a thought Harold http://www.pacificcoastairlinerr.com Reply rrinker Member sinceFebruary 2002 From: Reading, PA 30,002 posts Posted by rrinker on Sunday, October 3, 2004 7:08 AM QUOTE: Originally posted by pedromorgan i think i can give a small answer to that last point. i live in england where this page takes an eternity to load, an eternity to log in and an eternity to post a poll and an eternity to send this! (and yes i do have broadband!) i would really like to get involved in dcc. however i am yet to find a system that i can adopt to do exactly what i want. i have about 100 locos and there can easily be 40 on the layout or in yards. so dcc would be great. however as someone pointed out earlyie, i cant possiably remember the adresses for 40+ locos. i want a column of loco numbers and descriptions (just like on the bachmann thing) but down the left i want 3 or 4 buttons with the throttle i am holding representing one of the buttons. for example if i want to run my mallard and i have the red controller i can find mallard on the list and press the red button and control the loco across the whole layour from my wireless handset. it is faily simple really i just havent figured out how to implement it yet. no need to remember adresses and evry loco can be left on the track and up to 4 can be controlled at any one time. although as i write this ia am seeing limitations such as running in multiple could be a problem. hmm perhaps i have to rethink this one! Peter Morgan i am now going to go and make a cup of T while i send this!!!!!!!!!!!! You can do mostly what you want with a computer and just about any of the DCC systems out there. But my question is, WHY? It does not seem easier to me to page through a list of locos and hit the red or blue button next to the engine I want to run, rather, it seems far easier to me to operate the all but the basic starter systems do - I want to run the locomotive with the number 572 on it, I just punch in 572. Nothering to remember, no pages of information, nothing. This is what bugs me about the bachmann and MRC starter systems (although at least Bachmann has provided space to write in what loco each button controls. Perfect so long as you never aquire more than 10. Having more than 10 locos is elitist? Please...). The original MRC Prodigy (not the new Prodigy Advanced) just had the dial to sleect 1 of 16 locos. On systems like that, you have to remember somehow that 4-6-0 #1843 is #5 ont he controller, and 2-4-0 #3281 is number 9, etc. I'm sorry, this does NOT make it easier for beginners. This same issue existed prior to DCC as well, when mst command systems were capable of 16 or 32 locos max, there was no easy way to use actual loco numbers rather than keep some sort of 'cheat sheet'. The ability of DCC to use the numbers right on the loco with no requirement for each address to be sequential (ie, you can skip around and use whatever you want) is probably one of the most revolutionary features, and certainly makes things easier to use. Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more. Reply Javern Member sinceNovember 2001 From: US 732 posts Posted by Javern on Saturday, October 2, 2004 11:48 AM for beginners and small layouts it appears a good value, I for one am not interested in the numerous extra things the higher end systems can do, I want DCC control yet I'm more into scenery. Reply Roadtrp Member sinceNovember 2003 760 posts Posted by Roadtrp on Saturday, October 2, 2004 11:40 AM I think the Bachmann system is a great system for beginners like me. I have no doubt that it will handle my three locomotives just fine! I had not intended to look at DCC. Now after finding out about the Bachmann system, I plan to give it a try. No offense, but do some of you know how danged elitist you sound? [:)] -Jerry Reply pedromorgan Member sinceJune 2004 From: London 313 posts Posted by pedromorgan on Saturday, October 2, 2004 8:03 AM i think i can give a small answer to that last point. i live in england where this page takes an eternity to load, an eternity to log in and an eternity to post a poll and an eternity to send this! (and yes i do have broadband!) i would really like to get involved in dcc. however i am yet to find a system that i can adopt to do exactly what i want. i have about 100 locos and there can easily be 40 on the layout or in yards. so dcc would be great. however as someone pointed out earlyie, i cant possiably remember the adresses for 40+ locos. i want a column of loco numbers and descriptions (just like on the bachmann thing) but down the left i want 3 or 4 buttons with the throttle i am holding representing one of the buttons. for example if i want to run my mallard and i have the red controller i can find mallard on the list and press the red button and control the loco across the whole layour from my wireless handset. it is faily simple really i just havent figured out how to implement it yet. no need to remember adresses and evry loco can be left on the track and up to 4 can be controlled at any one time. although as i write this ia am seeing limitations such as running in multiple could be a problem. hmm perhaps i have to rethink this one! Peter Morgan i am now going to go and make a cup of T while i send this!!!!!!!!!!!! Reply CNJ831 Member sinceApril 2001 From: US 3,150 posts Posted by CNJ831 on Saturday, October 2, 2004 8:02 AM enduringexp - I think you have a highly valid point about armchair or wouldbe modelers dominate this forum. If one carefully reads through the various threads you all too often notice in answers to questions, statements like, "when I build my 50'x120' layout...", "the 60'x80' layout I'm planning...", or, "I have 6' completed on my 125' point-to-point layout so far." The impression I get is that the majority of forum members are more talk than substance when it comes to personal experience in building a complete model railroad. This is also reflected in a great many of the replies to posted questions, which as someone else complained in another thread, are just talk for talk's sake and offer no actual information or help! With regard in addressing specific questions concerning DCC system performance, the last figures I saw published indicated that only 15% or at most 20% of hobbyists operated with DCC. My guess would be that perhaps a third of these fully understand and can give valid advice on various systems. This is likely the reason for so many having read this thread but so few having commented on the question. CNJ831 Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, October 2, 2004 6:51 AM kbfcsme, Is that your home layout? Also, why does this thread have 174 views, but only 12 votes?? If it is being viewed, doesn't it take about 3 seconds to vote? Is the forum filled with lots of "armchair" railroaders that don't have layouts? This question/poll would apply to everybody that has a layout. Reply Edit Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Friday, October 1, 2004 2:05 PM 11 cabs, even more operators, and buku engines. I cant even imagine life with Bachmanns limtations.[:p] Reply Edit Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Friday, October 1, 2004 1:46 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by enduringexp Why does everyone against it keep saying it is for a SMALL home layout. I don't quite understand, but what does size have to do with it? If I have 5 locos running on a 4X8 or 5 locos running on a 25X40, what's the difference in DCC requirements? I would think (a stretch as I know little about DCC) that number of locos operated plus number of stationary DCC accessories dictates whether or not a system will work. Am I at least correct on that part? If I have 5 locos, NO DCC accessories, and no sound, do I NEED more to run my layout, or is more merely a luxury? Well, it all depends on those 5 locos, and how many of them you run at the same time. From what I've read, the Bachmann Easy-DCC is a 1 amp system, which can probably run at most 3-4 'modern' locos at the same time. If you have older, higher amperage locos, that number is lower. So if you're only running one or two single loco trains at a time, the Bachmann system may be all you need. Once you start consisting trains, the Bachmann system will run out of juice pretty quick. At that point, you'd need to add a booster, and I don't think (though I may be wrong) that boosters are available that work with the Bachmann command station. In that case, it'd be time to put the Bachmann on eBay and invest in a bigger system. I would have loved to have something like the Bachmann DCC system 10-12 years ago when I built my first 4x8 layout, since I never ran more than 2 locos at once. But with my new 7x9.5 u-shaped layout, I plan on running multi-loco consists, with trains passing in long sidings, local way freights, and at least one yard loco idling if not active while the other trains 'cruise' the mainline. I went with the Zephyr because of its expandability for the future, and because it has the power I need now to keep a couple of locos moving at least. Reply Edit Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, September 30, 2004 10:46 PM Why does everyone against it keep saying it is for a SMALL home layout. I don't quite understand, but what does size have to do with it? If I have 5 locos running on a 4X8 or 5 locos running on a 25X40, what's the difference in DCC requirements? I would think (a stretch as I know little about DCC) that number of locos operated plus number of stationary DCC accessories dictates whether or not a system will work. Am I at least correct on that part? If I have 5 locos, NO DCC accessories, and no sound, do I NEED more to run my layout, or is more merely a luxury? Is "more" like buying a Ford Chateau Van now while you are single because you might get married and have a ton of kids later? Also, to those that voted #1, you actually have that large of a home layout? This poll is for home layouts, not clubs, etc. Is it 100% yours, or is it a joint venture with other modelers, thereby making it more of a club style layout? Reply Edit cacole Member sinceJuly 2003 From: Sierra Vista, Arizona 13,757 posts Posted by cacole on Thursday, September 30, 2004 9:57 PM It's definitely a beginner's system for a small home layout -- not for a club by any stretch of the imagination. Reply davekelly Member sinceDecember 2003 From: Rhode Island 2,216 posts Posted by davekelly on Thursday, September 30, 2004 8:52 PM Stan, Glad to finally see a review of the Bachmann system. I'm glad you like it after comparing it to the others more "advanced" systems out there. My thought is I could buy the thing. Test out this DCC idea for a while and I don't like go back to DC or if I do, move up to one of the other systems. Bet I could get $20 or $30 for it on ebay. Much better idea than trying out a $300 system and then deciding I didn't like DCC. Heck, thanks to ebay it will cost me less to test out this DCC thing than taking the family to dinner and a movie. Thanks for posting your opinion!! DAve If you ain't having fun, you're not doing it right and if you are having fun, don't let anyone tell you you're doing it wrong. Reply darth9x9 Member sinceDecember 2002 From: US 665 posts Posted by darth9x9 on Thursday, September 30, 2004 8:47 PM I expect to keep at least 10 crews busy at one time. There will be several dozen trains in staging to keep things interesting. BC Bill Carl (modeling Chessie and predecessors from 1973-1983) Member of Four County Society of Model Engineers NCE DCC Master Visit the FCSME at www.FCSME.org Modular railroading at its best! If it has an X in it, it sucks! And yes, I just had my modeler's license renewed last week! Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, September 29, 2004 3:15 PM I like the E-Z command for these reasons 1) I don't plan to have 10 locos 2) even if i did, I would not have them all on the layout one time. 3) It is cheap ! 4) It is simple ! If I do need a more advanced system down the road, I can just get one. I just want to wire the layout for DCC from the begining, rather than change it from DC to DCC later. I just don't have the money for a large system right now. The one question i have is this: Can I connect walk around thorrotels to it ? Reply Edit bcammack Member sinceDecember 2002 From: US 403 posts Posted by bcammack on Wednesday, September 29, 2004 3:02 PM Heck, I just want to leave one locomotive idling on the siding while I use the other. Regards, Brett C. Cammack Holly Hill, FL Reply stanames Member sinceSeptember 2002 24 posts Posted by stanames on Wednesday, September 29, 2004 2:22 PM Randy I think you are comparing the Bachmann system to the wrong set of desired features. The Bachmann EZ Command appears to have a street price of about $70 or not much different than a good DC power pack. When you compare the system to its competition it is far and away superior. Now you can get into DCC for about the same price as DC. Independent control of 10 DCC locomotives and 9 functions is pretty impressive for that cost. And I also should note that Bachmann took the responsible step of seeking and achieving full NMRA Conformance. When you compare the EZ Command to a top of the line NCE, Digitrax or Lenz system, its features are a tad shy but then I seriously doubt it is trying to compete in that market. I have a 1500 feet of track on my large scale layout with 23 DCC locomotives. I generally operate with 30 amps of power. When I have an operating session with 10 or more engineers the current Bachmann offering is not up to the task. But then I doubt that I am the intended market. Still I have hooked up the system to my layout and have fun operating when I am switching in the shed. Its quite an impressive system. By far the easiest to use and clearly the easiest to install. The system is currently designed for a typically home layout. I have visited a lot and single operator layouts with less then 10 locomotives on the layout tend to predominate the market. Its great that finally a manufacturer has decided to develop a system for this market and I suspect that we will see many more things from Bachmann due to the inclusion of the expansion plug in the rear. I suspect they have a lot more in store for us. If we are to see this hobby grow then we need to address both ends of the hobby. You do not grow future model railroaders if the price of entry is a top of the line system with top of the line locomotives. You grow the hobby with high quality equipment priced so that the average user can run multiple trains at the same time without an EE degree. Stan Ames Reply 12345 Subscriber & Member Login Login, or register today to interact in our online community, comment on articles, receive our newsletter, manage your account online and more! Login Register Users Online There are no community member online Search the Community ADVERTISEMENT ADVERTISEMENT ADVERTISEMENT Model Railroader Newsletter See all Sign up for our FREE e-newsletter and get model railroad news in your inbox! Sign up
Originally posted by pedromorgan Perfect so long as you never aquire more than 10. Having more than 10 locos is elitist? Please...).
QUOTE: Originally posted by enduringexp Why does everyone against it keep saying it is for a SMALL home layout. I don't quite understand, but what does size have to do with it? If I have 5 locos running on a 4X8 or 5 locos running on a 25X40, what's the difference in DCC requirements? I would think (a stretch as I know little about DCC) that number of locos operated plus number of stationary DCC accessories dictates whether or not a system will work. Am I at least correct on that part? If I have 5 locos, NO DCC accessories, and no sound, do I NEED more to run my layout, or is more merely a luxury? Is "more" like buying a Ford Chateau Van now while you are single because you might get married and have a ton of kids later? Also, to those that voted #1, you actually have that large of a home layout? This poll is for home layouts, not clubs, etc. Is it 100% yours, or is it a joint venture with other modelers, thereby making it more of a club style layout?
QUOTE: Originally posted by pedromorgan i think i can give a small answer to that last point. i live in england where this page takes an eternity to load, an eternity to log in and an eternity to post a poll and an eternity to send this! (and yes i do have broadband!) i would really like to get involved in dcc. however i am yet to find a system that i can adopt to do exactly what i want. i have about 100 locos and there can easily be 40 on the layout or in yards. so dcc would be great. however as someone pointed out earlyie, i cant possiably remember the adresses for 40+ locos. i want a column of loco numbers and descriptions (just like on the bachmann thing) but down the left i want 3 or 4 buttons with the throttle i am holding representing one of the buttons. for example if i want to run my mallard and i have the red controller i can find mallard on the list and press the red button and control the loco across the whole layour from my wireless handset. it is faily simple really i just havent figured out how to implement it yet. no need to remember adresses and evry loco can be left on the track and up to 4 can be controlled at any one time. although as i write this ia am seeing limitations such as running in multiple could be a problem. hmm perhaps i have to rethink this one! Peter Morgan i am now going to go and make a cup of T while i send this!!!!!!!!!!!!
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
QUOTE: Originally posted by enduringexp Why does everyone against it keep saying it is for a SMALL home layout. I don't quite understand, but what does size have to do with it? If I have 5 locos running on a 4X8 or 5 locos running on a 25X40, what's the difference in DCC requirements? I would think (a stretch as I know little about DCC) that number of locos operated plus number of stationary DCC accessories dictates whether or not a system will work. Am I at least correct on that part? If I have 5 locos, NO DCC accessories, and no sound, do I NEED more to run my layout, or is more merely a luxury?
Bill Carl (modeling Chessie and predecessors from 1973-1983) Member of Four County Society of Model Engineers NCE DCC Master Visit the FCSME at www.FCSME.org Modular railroading at its best! If it has an X in it, it sucks! And yes, I just had my modeler's license renewed last week!