RR Car Ferry Project

["JaBear"]

Stanchions and Handrails, fabrication thereof!

 

Having reread this thread, (was it really almost 5 years ago when I actually last worked on this project???!!!), and while there have already been discussions about the railings; in response to a recent question by Lakeshore Sub, I thought I’d would put everything into one reply, and go into more detail.

 

I needed to make approximately 700 HO scale feet (8 feet) of 3 bar railing which required about 24 feet of rod of some description.

 

I ended up using K & S 0.020” brass rod, 1.70 HO scale inches, which comes in 12 inches length, instead of Tichy 0.0125” phosphor bronze rod, 1.10 HO scale inches, which comes in 8-inch lengths.

 

Which thickness is more prototypically correct, I don’t know, but I chose the 0.020” brass rod because it was far more readily available locally, and that there would be far less butt joints to attempt to solder.

 

I made the stanchions also from .020” brass rod using a jig (?) with two dressmaking pins, with the heads removed, and after several false starts, got stuck in. (I won’t mention that I seriously miscalculated the number required and had to get back into the “right” frame of mind, on several occasions. Decent sounds on the stereo did help, and I ended up making a total of 180 + stanchions.)

 

Stanchion by Bear, on Flickr

Stanchion1 by Bear, on Flickr

Stanchion2 by Bear, on Flickr

Stanchion3 by Bear, on Flickr

 

Setting the desired height of the stanchions on my vernier calipher, I positioned the stanchions in predrilled holes, threaded through the top rail and soldered the lot, checking for straightness and vertically. I should also note that a judicious drop of solder on the top rail hid any ugliness caused by the stanchion fabrication.

  

Having access to stock aluminium, I made these rail holders, I actually made three but found two sufficed, these held the bottom two rails in position while I soldered them.

 

Railing holder by Bear, on Flickr

Railing holders by Bear, on Flickr

 

Hope this is clearer than mud, and is of some use.

Cheers, the Bear.

[HO-Velo]

Bear,  Nice link!  Wish I'd seen the Solano model when she was on display locally, did however get a chance to see a model of the object of her demise:

The bones of the grand old Solano can still be seen miles upstream, https://www.flickr.com/photos/trhamiter/7452887018

Easy to see why it will be awhile before your carferry gets her feet wet.  That is an interesting and ambitious trackplan for the carferry, but from what I gather ambitious is right up the Bear's alley.  

Thanks and regards,  Peter

 

["JaBear"]

Thanks for the kind comments gentlemen.

Peter, during my research I had come across the Solano, and this web site. This is what I call exquisite modelling!!!

 

http://cprr.org/Museum/Ephemera/Solano_Ferry_Model.html

 

HO-Velo

Looking forward to seeing your carferry in the drink.

It may be a while. I’m mulling over whether I’ll conform to the local modular standards, (though I’m tending to think that my sectional units will with the use of purpose built adaptor modules be able just to plug in), and a track plan to suit.

This gentlemans’ track plan has put me on the right track; any flaws introduced will be of my own making.

 

http://smallmr.com/wordpress/author/mstull/

 

Cheers, the Bear.

[HO-Velo]

Bear, I hear ya', there is a certain satisfaction when a layout visitor takes pleasure in seeing a small and somewhat obscure modeled detail.

Your painstaking block and tackle detail is superb.

 

Hadn't thought about those big steam engines needing to be fed by gangs of hand shovels.  

Thanks for the Shorpy link, facinating photo!  During the first few decades of the 20th century there were large sidewheel carferries operating on a main waterway that is near my home.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solano_(ferry)

Looking forward to seeing your carferry in the drink.

Regards,  Peter  

[mlehman]

Absolutely wonderful modeling, Bear

["JaBear"]

Thanks Peter, though when things are not going well and with the associated angst, I just hope that I’m not beating myself up especially as I might end up hiding the detail too much!! I had a guy who models military vehicles, mainly tanks, visit and as he's the only one to have actully seen the ferry, I was pleased to hear him ask how I modelled the raincoats hanging by the door. That cheered me up no end!!

 

To your WPF question, “With three life boats I assume there will be passengers aboard?”

Passengers and passenger cars were carried but I haven’t ascertained as to the time frame but apart from the occasion that gmpullmans Ed mentioned above, I presume passenger cars would have been a rare sight in the mid 50s.

 

 I had bookmarked a link that did touch upon the subject but can no longer access the link. From memory, it said that ½ an hour was added to the passenger train schedule for running between Detroit and Windsor. Now even if it’s only 1 ½ miles between the ferry slips on both sides of the river, there must have been some very slick switching.

 

The missing information also referred to crew numbers, again I think that there was more crew rostered on during winter, I wondered at the time if more stokers were required as more power was required for ice breaking?

 

But to answer why I have settled for three lifeboats, it’s simply that when I decided to give making two a go, I thought that a spare would be handy if I made a complete pig’s ear out of one of them. But as all three “look about right” I couldn’t bring myself to waste the effort, besides while its 50 years before my modelled period, there is a Shorpy photo of the then Michigan Central RR car ferry “Transport” with a life boat on the stern.

http://www.shorpy.com/node/6874

 

However with the struggles that I’ve had in getting the block and tackles “looking about right” a wiser option may have been to stick with two lifeboats.

 

on Flickr

on Flickr

Thanks for looking,

Cheers, the Bear.

[HO-Velo]

Lookin' good Bear!  I absolutely adore your detailed wheelhouse, complete with the  "ol' man's" chair.  I agree that interiors are certainly worth the effort and best of all, lots of fun.

Regards, Peter

["JaBear"]

It’s been too long but I have finally had some time to make some progress, though I’ve posted a couple of progress photos in the last couple of WPFs.

The radio operators station.....

 

 on Flickr

 

....and Frank at the helm.

on Flickr

 

I’m still not at all sure what the interior of a Detroit Car Ferry wheel house looked like but this is what I’d expect to see.

 

on Flickr

 

Well, I’ve “finished” the wheel house though I will qualify the finished by saying that it’s been suggested to me to fit LED lighting to the spot lights and inside the wheel house to show off the interior detail, so I’ve designed it so that I can remove the roof and the wheel house itself, if I ever feel so inspired. Don’t hold your breath though.

 

on Flickr

 

 I had briefly wondered if the time spent on details was worth it now everything is together and I think, yes. The ferry is going to be on the edge of the layout so if someone wants to look, then they can see a reasonable amount.

 

on Flickr

 

m41 by Bear, on Flickr

 

Thanks for looking.

Cheers, the Bear.

["JaBear"]

hon30critter

Please don't misunderstand my suggestion. I wasn't trying to be at all critical of your choice of materials.

I didn’t take it at all that way Dave. If we can’t offer suggestions and (reasonable) opinions in a free and open manner, then the forum would be a complete waste of time, for me at least.

As it was I made soldering the joins I had to do into a far harder task than was necessary!!!

Cheers, the Bear.

[hon30critter]

Hi Bear:

Please don't misunderstand my suggestion. I wasn't trying to be at all critical of your choice of materials. I have done butt joints with the phosphor bronze wire and it is a PITA.

Dave

["JaBear"]

Gidday Dave, I’ve got and used the Tichy phosphor bronze wire for making grab irons etc, but for the railings I used the 12 inch lengths of K&S .020” brass rod; (1) because it was readily available locally, (2) because there would have been a lot more “Muttering” when the extra joins didn’t go as well as planned.  

http://www.ksmetals.com/27.html

Cheers, the Bear.

[hon30critter]

Interesting thread, and great modelling from both Peter and Bear.

Re: the use of brass for the railings, I would also suggest that phosphor bronze wire is great for that type of work. Phosphor bronze is somewhat stiffer than hardened brass so it resists being bent out of shape quite well, although I don't think it would have withstood Bear's dropping a clamp on it. However, it is still easy to form, and it solders beautifully.

I get mine from Tichy. It comes in several sizes. The only minor limitation might be that the Tichy rods are only about 8" long so butt joints would be required for longer railings like those on Bear's float. Butting the ends at a stantion would minimize the problem. I'm not sure if it's available in longer pieces from other sources but it must be.

https://www.tichytraingroup.com/Shop.aspx?SearchValue=phosphor

Dave

["JaBear"]

Gidday Peter, you are right that as long as you’re having fun, time isn’t a factor but it can be a Catch 22 situation when it comes to newcomers to the hobby or modellers who wish to expand their skill set.  I don’t wish to give the impression that it’s just a case of “a click of the fingers and it’s done” but neither that it is a long hard slog!

The threads on RTR vs. Kits alternately either depress me or amuse me, there is no right path for a modeller to go down, and it’s a case of individual priorities, including, but not only, time and money, and how a modeller obtains their fun and satisfaction from the hobby.

Currently I’m getting a lot of satisfaction from scratchbuilding, but to clarify in those two calendar years I’ve sidetracked myself on several occasions, like my two scratchbuilt flatcars, and a kitbash or two, plus like a lot of other ffolkes I still have to w**k for a living.

That said I’m looking forward to the day the ferry goes into revenue service.$$$$$ 

Cheers, the Bear.

[HO-Velo]

Bear,  Two years? I would not have guessed that your car ferry project has been in the works for that long, time is flying, but that must mean we're having fun.  Though my carfloat harbor scene was a mere fourteen months in the making I can tell you unequivocally that the first carfloat unloading and loading sequence was sweet fruit of labor.

Thanks and regards, Peter

["JaBear"]

mlehman

I think you made the right decision to go with brass for the handrails if you'll be nadling cars directly on and off the ferry. It's inevitable that you'll brush or bump them. Brass holds up well and is forgiving if need be to straighten it.

Mike, thanks for your kind words. I had thought of using music wire but then not only had I read that soldering it can be difficult but I also thought trying to make the stanchions would have been interesting, to say the least.  Working with brass was also new to me but it was obvious that it was far easier to work with and yes, it is far easier to restraighten when a clumsy oaf manages to drop a largish clamp on, of all places, where the three rails join. 

I have read where ferries have their own trolley and get rolled away from the layout and am considering how I can incorporate that idea, taking into consideration that one of the compromises is that the layout will be built as a series of exhibition modules. For the problem as I see it, or more accurately don’t, is putting freight cars back on to the ferries tracks! I think sooner or later I’m going to have to buy a rerailer ramp. 

Cheers, the Bear.

[mlehman]

Bear,

Really outstanding work there. Marvelous! I think you made the right decision to go with brass for the handrails if you'll be nadling cars directly on and off the ferry. It's inevitable that you'll brush or bump them. Brass holds up well and is forgiving if need be to straighten it.

Still, I presume you're holding back on the Really Good Stuff until WPF???

["JaBear"]

In the last instalment of WPF Mr DuPrey said “Whoa JaBear, you holding out on us?” ”  After managing to get over my rubbery bottom lip and with due consideration I decided that his comment was a fair one considering I’ve been dragging out this project for just over two years so far, though the end is now in sight!!  

So time for another update.

As with most of my undertakings, while I had a picture in my mind of how it was going to look, getting the geometry right and the actual “how to” attach the stairs took far more time before I was happy with the result. And while I did briefly consider scratchbuilding the stairs, common sense quickly came to the fore and it was decided that those offered by Plastruct were more than adequate, though their railings that went with the stairs weren’t.

So here I am, apart from painting, (have I mentioned the word tedium before????) all the railings are done, after having to make another 60 stanchions because I miscalculated how many I’d need.

 

on Flickr

 

on Flickr

 

At the present time from a modelling perspective the ferry won’t actually leave the apron, a trip across the river will be simulated by replacing the cars by the 0-5-0 method before the return. However curiosity got the better of me and unless more information is forthcoming, I gather that my assumption that the ferries would reverse out of the Wabashapron just upstream from the Ambassador Bridge then run forward the 1.6 miles to nose into the shared CNRapron adjacent to Goyeau Street on the Windsor side, then with the ferries having twin screws and a rudder fore and aft, on the return journey would reverse from the CNR apron and continue to run in reverse until just downstream of the Wasbash apron, then go forward to nose in to unload, was correct.

Thanks for looking,

 

Cheers, the Bear.

["JaBear"]

Gidday, time for another update.

How to do the railings was bugging me, the top rail was easy, just thread through the eye in the stanchions and solder. (Though the words solder and easy don’t really go together in the Bears vocabulary).

To confuse the issue I found photos that showed the “Manitiwoc” with only two rails, but I had already decided to go with the “Windsor’s” three rails. Sowith typical cussedness not only did I ignore the easier option but then made things even harder by deciding to make three holding jigs/heat sinks. Now when just using hand tools I find making two similar items challenging especially when those items require a degree of accuracy,  three was a step too far for me. However two was all I actually required.

Note: for the stanchions and the railings I used .020” brass rod, probably not that accurate but.........

 

on Flickr

 

I’m glad I took the time to make the jigs, because the job was reasonably easy, that is to say there was very Little use of undesirable language and only one attempt ay branding myself.

Allan from the Black River Valley RR used the word Tedium when I posted this photo in WPF regarding progress on the railing soldering, actually satisfaction was the word I used, the Tedium occurred while painting the railings. Aaaarrghhh!!!

 

on Flickr

 

So for a change from the tedium, and as I was in the mood, I decided to make some detail parts I require, namely 10 life buoys, 4 bitts, 4 fairleads, and 4 capstans. Now I’ve already mentioned the challenge of making two similar items so more can be even more so, especially when I wear 3.25 x spectacles when working on the finer stuff. With that sort of magnification I tend to fixate on every small flaw that is hard to see especially when the “Three Foot Rule” is in place. It also helps when Her-in-doors casually remarks “they look good” as she walks past. (Lucky to have met that girl!!! Even luckier she puts up with me!!!)

 

on Flickr 

 

 

In this last photo I’ve started to put the various items in their proper place.

 

on Flickr 

 

Thanks for looking,

Cheers, the Bear.

[hon30critter]

Thanks for the reference Bear. Now I understand how they worked and what they were used for. I hadn't associated it with the lifeboat immediately behind it. Duh.

Dave

["JaBear"]

Gidday Mike, I had to have a listen to Lee Murdock before replying, I didn’t hear the particular song but I think the daughter has itunes so will remedy that the next time I see her.

Looking not only from the other side of the world but also back in a foreign history I don’t think, even now, I fully comprehend how important a transportation system the Great Lakes has provided for the local native tribes right through to today. Size is also hard to comprehend; Lake Superior alone has about the surface area of half the South Island! I only discovered during my research that the Manitowoc Shipbuilding Company who built the Manitowoc for the Wabash RR also built, amongst other craft, 28 fleet submarines for the USN during WW2.

I did come across an aerial photo taken late 40s early 50s of the Detroit River in the vicinity of the ferry crossings and was surprised to see how much traffic, and the size of some of the ships. George W. Hiltons “The Great Lakes Car Ferries” refers to collisions and even a sinking but when considering the amount of traffic, the bad weather during the winter months and that the ferries were cutting across the flow of traffic, seamanship (should that be rivermanship?) obviously came to the fore. I wish I had bookmarked that photo.

The photos of the Windsor and Manitowoc show two lifeboats, I’m still trying to identify if there are any rafts, but I suspect by then whole passenger trains complete with passengers were not moved by the river ferries. The reason I’m going to have 3 is because all three I built turned out OK.

Cheers, the Bear.

["JaBear"]

hon30critter

Can I ask how they worked?

Gidday Dave, I struggled to identify what sort of davit was used and to be fair am still only 80% sure, and it also took me quite a while to work out how they worked. As I just mentioned in the Operating Brakes thread, it helps if I ask Mr Google the right question.

Here’s a definition from the Dictionary of Naval Terms.

“Quadrantal Davit: A boat davit in which the lower end of the arm is a steel quadrant fitted with gear teeth and the appropriate mechanism for cranking out the arm and lowering the boat.”

If you go to page 20 at this site, there is a diagram.....

http://www.maritime.org/doc/merchant/prelim/index.htm

Cheers, the Bear.

[hon30critter]

Nice detail!

I have to admit that I have never seen one before. Can I ask how they worked?

Dave

[mlehman]

Bear,

Was rereading this to remind myself of the discussion and seeing you great boat coming together. Had something to add to the numbers of lifeboats required on the Detroit River and elsehwere in the US, as well as some ferry's having larger number if room to accomodate ever one.

First, crossing the Detroit River is an international crossing that might have forced a more stringent requirement for number of lifeboats carried. For some boats with the extra life boats, I think the speculation that this increase was due to the regular carriage of passengers is also the most likely explanation.

It was also a time of rapid change in safety requirements, driven by many diisasters. Everyone remembers the Titanic, but I think there were more than 4,000 ships lost on the Great Lakes between 1860 and 1880, so lots of public pressure to do something despite the influence of the shipping companies. Wasn't just freight, lots of passengers, too. Check out the intro to a song by Lee Murdock, "The Persia's Crew," on his Lee Murdock in Concert: Great Lakes Chronicle with the Blue Water Band (Depot Recordings, 1998). I've listened to it a lot while working on the layout over the years. Great oldtimey music done in modern popular style.

["JaBear"]

Common sense finally won out and I've now made enough of the Radial type Davit.

While I hold great stock with the use of common sense in the work place, I think in that in this quote, I was using the words “common sense” instead of laziness.

Especially in light of what I said in my last reply, “But as a lot of the positive forum threads tend to do, I have been inspired to push my boundaries and try harder”.

So as the photos appear to show a type of quadrantal davit, here goes....

 

on Flickr

 

....and as my own worst critic, even though it needs a tidy up, I’m pleased with the result, now just have to complete five more.

Thanks for looking,

Cheers, the Bear.

[Santa Fe all the way!]

Looking very nice. As my hobbies include both model railroading and model ships, this project is of particular interest to me. Keep the updates coming.

["JaBear"]

Update time again.

Even though w**k has been keeping me busy, I’ve surprised myself by how much I’ve actually got done, though nowhere as much as I would have liked.

Still got the shell of the wheelhouse done...on Flickr

 

...and some details for the roof.

 

on Flickr

 

From time to time I put Foreman Fred in my photos to provide not only some light relief but also scale. At the very least I was going to put a wheel in the wheel house and as I haven’t come across any photos of the interiors of the Detroit River Car ferries wheelhouses, there are photos in this aforementioned site........

http://teamtrack.soforums.com/t625-CAR-FERRY-around-MICHIGAN-State.htm

........ of the bridge of  “SS Chief Wawatam”. So I scaled the wheel depicted to look about right with Foreman Fred and made it. Now this is where “assume” has made an ass out of me.  I now discovered that Foreman Fred is not an HO figure but an OO figure, and if you think that an extra half millimetre (0.019”) to the foot doesn’t matter, well if you were modelling an HO scale NBA team it wouldn’t!

 

on Flickr

 

So I have since reworked the wheel and found a new HO helmsman Frank.

“Why Frank” you may well ask? Well over in WPF 13-15 March zstripe made this comment “..... and that wheel house is just begging for a detailed interior....sorta like Northeastern strip wood paneling for the walls/floor....WOW!”.  My initial thought was WHAT!!!!  Besides apart from  the helmsman, wheel and the Captain, that’s all the detailing I’m intending to do, after all unless I take another close up photo who is going to look that closely anyway? And besides little parts don’t suit Bears paws!!

However I replied along the lines that as the directors of the Lachlan River RR were descended from canny Scots immigrants, there’d be none of this extravagant wood panelling nonsense.

But as a lot of the positive forum threads tend to do, I have been inspired to push my boundaries and try harder.

 The results so far.....

 

on Flickr

 

on Flickr

Any helpful comments, thoughts, or constructive criticism are welcome.

Thanks for looking,

Cheers, the Bear.  

[zstripe]

JaBear,

I can understand that...but over the year's I have developed a extreme amount of patience. I just think of my Dad..God rest His soul....He was like a bull in a china closet when it came to patience.  Not to mention, temper. Never wanted to be around Him, when He got,** angry.

Have A Good One...And New Year! 

Frank

["JaBear"]

Thanks Frank, trouble is patience is Not my strong suit and as a consequence I sometimes getGRUMPY!  

Cheers, the Bear.

[zstripe]

JaBear,

Looking good Bear. Fast or slow.. The climb...is just as important as getting to the top of the Mountain...sometimes, more so.

I have spent many an hour, testing, fitting and getting to the final result....only to learn that I put them together in the wrong sequence.....now they won't fit. LOL

Take Care! 

Frank