Firstly, I'm new to this forum so hello to everyone.
Secondly, I have a small layout built to represent a short line terminal of my fictional railroad based in Pennsylvania. I have a boxcab to act as the lines motive power and an assortment of boxcars and gondolas so I have placed my line about the 1930s/40s era.
However I have run into a hiccup with my research. I have got to the point where I need to start putting some industries down but I have no idea what sort of traffic would be common on lines in this area. I'm guessing things like cattle and milk and general produce but none of the information I have seen to contain much in the way of "common" traffic
I have a couple of book on Penn state Short Lines, but they are mostly pictures of the trains and a little bit of background info. As I'm not a US resident I have tried using Google but its been less than helpful.
I would appreciate any advice from people who know more as to what's realistic or not!
I would think it would depend on where in PA you are placing the RR. For example, near the docks(Great Lakes or Philly) or near the steel mills? Many dairies of course in certain areas. Area around Erie had a lot of manufacturing and still has GE loco facility.
Richard
Some other regional commodities were oil, lumber, tanning bark, and other forest products, light manufacturing, and brick and tile production.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
Big coal mining country. Anthracite mines. That is a very hard, clean burning, coal.
Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
Gidday Ross, to the forums.
I am a foreigner as well and here are some sites I find very useful.....
http://www.shorpy.com/search/node/Pennsylvania+Industry
http://www.junipergallery.com/large_format_kodachromes
http://imagebase.lib.vt.edu/browse.php?folio_ID=/trans
......as you see they are fairly broad based, almost too much information!! Its just a case of refining my""search" phraseology, one day I might just get it right.
http://explorepahistory.com/stories.php
......again this is not a specific site but ???
Have Fun
Cheers, the Bear.
"One difference between pessimists and optimists is that while pessimists are more often right, optimists have far more fun."
'' JA BEAR'',
To The Forums!!!!!!!!
Cheers,
Frank
zstripe '' JA BEAR'', To The Forums!!!!!!!!
Thanks Frank, I am so overcome by your welcome, I'll have to have a cuppa tea and a lie down.
Apologies to Ross, for going
Edit: While looking for something else I found this site, again broad based but......
http://www.billspennsyphotos.com/apps/photos/album?albumid=7536494
no, that's quite alright, thanks for the welcome.
I was trying to avoid going for somewhere obvious that will mean I have to have long trains or that gets seen a lot so trying to avoid coal or lumber
Would a brick factory or a tanning plant be something I could locate at the end of a shortline?
Ross ---
The character of a Pennsylvania shortline depended entirely on geography. Of course, I guess that's true of every RR everywhere. Pennsylvania, historically, was shortline heaven, and the commodities handled were mind-bogglingly diverse.
Right smack in the middle of the State was Centre County (hence the name), which was home to the Bellefonte Central RR (BFC). There were no coal mines on the line, but coal was mined on the PRR's nearby Snowshoe branch, and the railroad brought coal and other commodities to Penn State University at the town of State College. The BFC's most important commodity was limestone and related products, but there were feed mills, retail lumber yards, etc. on the line.
Bituminous (soft) coal predominated in the western part of Pennsylvania; Anthracite (hard) coal predominated in the Northeast. Other types could be found in pockets here & there, such as the semi-bituminous coal of the Broad Top Mountain area (south central). The steel industry was a major economic force throughout the State, as was (and is) agriculture. In the deep forests of the north central part of the State, trees were cut for the tannin in their bark, and a very important leather tanning industry developed. The Wellsville Addison & Galeton RR called itself "the Sole Leather Route". I believe the Chestnut Ridge Railway served lead/zinc smelters or some such thing.
My best advice is to READ READ READ. Think about the industries that are most interesting to you, and unless you choose citrus farming, I'll bet you can find a Pennsylvania shortline that served those industries. I don't know where you live or how much trouble you might find in seeking out material on obscure Pennsylvania shortlines. Some books that could be helpful are:
PENNSYLVANIA SHORT LINES IN COLOR Vol. II and Vol. II, by Gary R. Carlson, Morning Sun Books, Inc., 9 Pheasant Lane, Scotch Plains, NJ, 07076 2003; 2005.
RAILS to PENN STATE, The Story of the Bellefonte Central by Michael Bezilla and Jack Rudnicki, Stackpole Books, 5067 Ritter Road, Mechanicsburg, PA, 17055, published 2007, 310 pages.
Anything by Paul Pietrak (Buffalo & Susquehanna, Buffalo Rochester & Pittsburgh, and other area RR's). These are probably all out of print
The MA & PA, A History of the Maryland & Pennsylvania Railroad, by George W. Hilton, 1963. My copy was published by Howell-North, but I believe a more recent edition is or was available.
You'll probably have to look for used books to find these.
Tom
... and a brick manufacturing plant would work perfectly. Around Mount Union, PA, the narrow gauge East Broad Top RR brought ganister rock to plants that manufactured firebrick for use in steam generating plants (such as locomotives). Brick kilns could be found at lots of locations around the State.
If you get bit by the narrow gauge bug, the best book on the East Broad Top is:
EAST BROAD TOP by Lee Rainey & Frank Kyper, Golden West Books, San Marino California, 1982, 256 pages. This is another one you'll have to find on the used market.
How far back do you want to go? The Delaware and Hudson Canal Company in PA brought us the very first railroad steam engine.
http://www.stourbridge.com/stourbridge_lion.htm
I have the two books by Morning Sun, which is where my inspiration for setting my line in Pennsylvania comes from.
I also have a couple of the Morning Sun books on logging lines and interurbans as well. It sounds to me almost as if a combination of the Wellsville and the Bellefonte might be the best combination for me with regards to what industries would be ones I would want to model.
I am assuming that most of these industries would have a brick-built structures so could be something I could kitbash up from DPM or similar structures?
I've considered both Bellefonte Central (BFC) and Wellsville Addison & Galeton (WAG) as prototypes for modeling, but have settled on RR's that are closer to the area where I was born. I HIGHLY recommend the book Rails to Penn State, which I mentioned earlier.
The WAG was an offshoot of a line that began as part of the Buffalo & Susquehanna RR. It was absorbed by the Baltimore & Ohio in the mid-1930's but continued to operate with mostly old B&S equipment. It was spun off to become the WAG in the mid 1950's. I'm not aware of any currently available books on the WAG, but Pietrak's book on the B&S might be found on eBay if you're patient. WAG used a couple old B&S 2-8-0's (B&O class E-60, once available as a brass model from Sundancer), plus some unusual diesel switchers that had come from service for Ford Motor Co. Later, they got some EMD F7A units. Cabooses were B&O I-10's that had come from BR&P. This design was also used by Montour RR, Detroit Toledo & Ironton, & others. MR had plans for the caboose, the 4-4-2 passenger locos, and the E-60 2-8-0 in the past (MID-1950's for the first two; late '30's -mid '40's for the 2-8-0).
BFC used 2 old C&O 2-8-0's and an older DT&I 2-8-0 from the late '30's till the postwar period when they bought 3 H9s 2-8-0's from the Pennsylvania RR. They dieselized with EMD SW9 5323, bought in 1953 and EMD SW1200 5624, purchased in 1956. PRR H9s engines have been available in several versions in brass, plus a Bowser kit. I think Paragon is going to release a PRR H10s, which could be modified into an H9s. Bowser's Old Lady 2-8-0 could stand in for the exC&O 2-8-0's. Accurate BFC cabooses would have to be scratchbuilt or kit modified.
Those recommendations apply if you intend to model either railroad faithfully. If you plan to freelance, then you're free to do as you wish. You could even combine both and represent a fictitious RR that served both a limestone quarry and a tannery. In any event, your railroad would also serve an area heavy in agriculture, so it would also have the typical traffic in other commodities. Freight cars of the Pennsylvania RR would dominate, with the B&O, Erie, NYC, and other Eastern railroads having a significant presence.
As always, a trip to the actual areas would be very instructive, but that may not be possible. That's why I asked where you live. You don't have to answer that question if you don't want to.
In any event, I wish you good luck. A model railroad based on either of these lines (and others in Pennsylvania) could be very challenging and satisfying.
ACY ... The MA & PA, A History of the Maryland & Pennsylvania Railroad, by George W. Hilton, 1963. My copy was published by Howell-North, but I believe a more recent edition is or was available. ....
...
....
3rd Edition available from the Maryland and Pennsylvania Historical Society as well as other places.
Even if you choose not to follow the Ma&Pa, this book is well written about a gem of a shortline railroad.
Good luck
Paul
I'm keeping an eye out for all the books that were listed that I don't have, I'm even trying to get hold of any other books Morning sun might have published.
I have noticed that most of the lines in Book 1 all seem to be steel company owned lines, and most of them seem to have eventually ended up with SW1500 or MP15s in their later lives.
I am assuming the WAG diesel switchers were 30s units as well, and something I could modify my MDC boxcab to resemble. I cant seem to locate my Volume 2 of the Morning Sun book at the moment to check what it looks like, some hunting needed I think! I have a feeling mine will end up and a combination of both roads but not a model of either.
A visit to Pennsylvania would be a bit difficult for me as I live in the UK though, eventually I will get out to the US to visit the area, I just don't expect it will be that soon.
For ease of modelling I was planning to use mostly suitable pre-30s era PRR stock and say that the branch was owned by them but sold-off pre-WW1. Other than that I already have a Spectrum Doodlebug that I had cut down into a baggage only unit, going to get another one to cut down into a passenger-only unit to run as a pair.
All good except the idea of converting the MDC boxcab into an ex-Ford diesel. These were 300 h.p., 132 ton, General Electric center-cab units with unique grilles at each end, vaguely evoking the appearance of a Ford automobile. Scratchbuilding would probably be the only option. Overland announced an expensive brass version several years ago, but I don't know whether they actually released the model. In any event, WAG didn't obtain these engines until the 1950's, which is after your target time period. Since you're planning to freelance, you could probably use the boxcab as an in-plant switcher for a tannery or a gypsum plant. There aren't too many early HO diesels available, although the Atlas High Hood switcher might be useful. For steam, many shortlines of Pennsylvania bought used locos from the PRR, Pittsburgh & Lake Erie, and other large nearby railroads. If they were prosperous enough to buy new engines, they often bought from Baldwin in Philadelphia or from some of the ALCO plants. The most common wheel arrangement was probably a 2-8-0, but 0-6-0's, 2-6-0's, 4-6-0's, and occasionally 2-8-2's were seen (the latter on roads with heavier trains). Geared engines (Shays, Heislers, or Climaxes) were often used to get the lumber that provided tanbark for the tanneries.
Earlier you asked whether brick buildings would be appropriate. Absolutely! WAG's main shop area at Galeton, PA was loaded with brick buildings: roundhouse; shop; and station/offices. Most of the town buildings would be wood, and smaller stations would be wood. Brick would be appropriate for most tannery buildings. On the Bellefonte Central, a lot of concrete was used. Their water tower was on a concrete base at the Coleville shop, and the enginehouse looked like solid concrete, although that may have been concrete covering a cinder block structure. BFC's coaling station was also concrete.
Do some more research, let your imagination take you where it will, and most importantly, HAVE FUN WITH IT!
If you decide to make the trip over here, I could probably give you a pretty good tour, with advance notice.
Ahhh, ok, Just found the WAG page on Wikipedia as well so it looks like they may have had a small 50-ton boxcab when they started up but not for long. Some useful information on there are well, just a shame there is only a single picture of a boxcar and nothing else!
A concrete coaling dock and water tower sounds good to me, the Peco GWR style metal water tower could be painted up to look concrete quite easily, although I'm not sure how much work it would take to "Americanise" it, good starter project though!
I have a few (well, four!) of the older "cheapo" Bachmann USRA style 0-6-0 switchers which I suppose I could use for power over my line, I would just need to find a way to make them look a bit more Pennsy style or say they have been purchased second-hand to replace older engines. I am assuming with steamers "trade-ins" of an older loco for a newer one as was done with early diesels was not something that was done.
Having said that, I like the HH600 model so I may end up getting one eventually.
And thank you very much for the offer to show me around if I get over there, its greatly appreciated!
Just as an aside, I have been going through a box of rolling stock that I found at my mums yesterday and I have found a large number of Roundhouse 36ft reefers, boxcars and a pair of old time tankers plus a Bachmann Spectrum Russian Decapod (which also has a spare Bachmann short Vanderbilt tender), an 0n30 Porter 0-4-0 and an outside frame Consolidation (also 0N30)
Would the Decapod be a bit too big of a loco for a shortline or would it do as their only power?
Considering going narrow gauge as well now as I have seen the Backwoods Minatures 2-8-2T conversion for the Consolidation, just not sure which would be more realistic, standard gauge or narrow gauge.
First, I want to invite others to chime in here. Surely I'm not the only guy with some ideas here.
Ten-drivered locos were pretty rare on shortlines in PA, although the Russian Decapods were sold to lots of shortlines, and larger lines, especially in the Southeast of the USA. The Pittsburg Shawmut & Northern had an odd 2-10-2 which was disliked and disposed of; and the Buffalo & Susquehanna had a 2-10-0 which they soon sold off to the Soo Line in the upper Midwest. Most PA shortlines preferred 2-8-0's, largely because many of those lines had some pretty severe curves & the Consolidations were more nimble. The Erie Railroad was a large trunk line that owned a lot of Russian Decapods and used them on light branches and in local freight service. If you modeled the WAG or its predecessor the Buffalo & Susquehanna, you could probably justify an Erie Russian "Deck" working the interchange at Addison NY or Wellsville NY, just a few miles from the PA border.
The narrow gauge Porter engine you describe would mostly be appropriate for industrial service (mines, quarries, very small lumber yards, or switching around a manufacturing plant). The narrow gauge 2-8-0 would be a lot like engines used on several narrow gauge operations, including the East Broad Top, although the outside frame was a bit unusual.
The Bachmann USRA 0-6-0's actually represent more than just the USRA engine. There were later copies built during WWII and the years leading up to it. Wheeling & Lake Erie in Ohio built 30 of them in the 1930's in their own shops and bought 6 copies from American Locomotive Works (ALCO) during the 1940's. ALCO and Lima Loco Works both built copies for the US Military services during the 1940's, and many of these were sold to various small RR's after the war. The Pennsylvania RR did have some USRA 0-6-0's, although I think they were mostly used on PRR lines farther west. The Bachmann engine is not a bad little beast, although the Proto 2000 version would probably be better, with a matching higher price. A small fleet of these might make for a nice little shortline/switching roster, although a road engine with a leading truck would be more representative of common practice in PA. I know lots of 0-6-0's like the LMS 4F's were commonly used as mainline freight haulers in the UK, but over here we generally like a pony truck on our engines for over-the-road service.
But don't forget: IT'S YOUR RAILROAD, so you can decide any way you like.
Bowser has announced that their General Motors EMD F7 units will be available in Wellsville Addison & Galeton livery (ca. 1960's - 1970's, I think).
Ross,
While It is great to model exactly what was where, there is also something we affectionately call "protolancing".
It's YOUR RR, run what you like/can/afford/want!
You can be as Prototypical as you can be, then freelance the rest, hence the term "proto-lancing". OR you can freelance the bulk of it based on a prototype.
So if you only have access to certain Locos, rr cars and want to use them, will it really matter if they used a 0-6-0 or an 0-4-0 porter or a boxcab?
Same with choosing your industry! If you want a Brickyard, have at it, somewhere, somehow, Bricks were probably made in Pennsylvania as a LOT of older building/homes/rowhouses are brick! SO were a lot of "paved roads" around here in the days before common Asphalt {and concrete}. It would be somewhat a "sureity" that bricks were made in PA too!
So don't fret over "getting it right" if it seems not possible or daunting.
Its YOUR RR, run what you like!
Its a Hobby, Have FUN!
-G .
Just my thoughts, ideas, opinions and experiences. Others may vary.
HO and N Scale.
After long and careful thought, they have convinced me. I have come to the conclusion that they are right. The aliens did it.
Ross Chapman Would the Decapod be a bit too big of a loco for a shortline or would it do as their only power?
The Gainesville Midland had 10 Decapods IIRC, some were Russians, others were similar copies. Nothing nearly as big as the PRR giants. Something about needing light-footed locos for some of the older bridges on the line at that time. One or two of them ran way into the late '59 or 1960 (depending which source you believe).
Brad
EMD - Every Model Different
ALCO - Always Leaking Coolant and Oil
CSX - Coal Spilling eXperts