LION thinks that in many cases "pre-ordering" is nothing more than a poll to see what interest is out there. Once they get enough pre-orders they will design the molds and order the products to be made. If they do not get so many pre-orders they will quietly shelf the idea.
ROAR
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
NittanyLion BRAKIE Let's let business 101 be business 101 and use common sense instead. Common sense is often flawed and built on bad data. There's a reason Business 101 exists. For example, I'm in the space business. Common sense would tell you that you should mass produce (or at least order more than two) probes, rovers, and what have you to take advantage of economies of scale. But, in practice, that fails because the demands of every mission are so unique that you have to build from scratch almost every time. Common sense says "build a Mars rover just like the one you just built, it'll be cheaper, but put life detection sensors on it!" Real Engineering says "You've changed the mass, center of gravity, and power demands. Swapping in a $250,000 sensor is going to cost us $9 million. And it still might not work."
BRAKIE Let's let business 101 be business 101 and use common sense instead.
Let's let business 101 be business 101 and use common sense instead.
Common sense is often flawed and built on bad data. There's a reason Business 101 exists.
For example, I'm in the space business. Common sense would tell you that you should mass produce (or at least order more than two) probes, rovers, and what have you to take advantage of economies of scale. But, in practice, that fails because the demands of every mission are so unique that you have to build from scratch almost every time. Common sense says "build a Mars rover just like the one you just built, it'll be cheaper, but put life detection sensors on it!" Real Engineering says "You've changed the mass, center of gravity, and power demands. Swapping in a $250,000 sensor is going to cost us $9 million. And it still might not work."
What's that got to do with buying model trains?
The modern age bean counters has ruin a lot of things and some came up with terrible ideas such as requiring a deposit.Thankfully calmer heads with common sense prevailed in all but a few instances and no deposit is required..
Common sense in purchasing models today requires modelers look before commenting dollars and Business 101 isn't needed for that..
Far too many models today suffers defaults from wrong details to shoddy workmanship.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
In before the lock!!
Anyway, there is NO comparison between model railroading and video games. Pre-ordering a video game ensures you'll receive a copy when released, not left standing in line if sold out. Pre-ordering in the model railroading world is for manufacturer's to see if the demand is there to even make the product.
I have only pre-ordered one item. It is the Athearn SD70Ace NS Heritage in the Penn Central paint scheme (DCC with sound). I was hesitant because of the price and estimated delivery date. But since I WANTED one and didn't want to take a chance on them being sold out or getting bilked by other sellers, I pre-ordered. The delivery date has been moved up (from Feb 2014 to Oct 2013) and since they have been displayed on Athearn's web site, youtube channel and the National Train Show, I am EXTREMELY EXCITED about it.
I am not entirely enthused about pre-orders and would not be happy if the company went out of business before delivery or changed their mind and would have to fight to get a refund. Athearn is a large company and the chance of this happening was slim. When I pre-ordered, the final price was actually lower than advertised.
Inspired by Addiction
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cacole Well, it is, after all, just a hobby -- and I'm not going to suffer any pain if an item is never available for me because I didn't pre-order it.
Well, it is, after all, just a hobby -- and I'm not going to suffer any pain if an item is never available for me because I didn't pre-order it.
There is a pain killer called on line stores that orders enough for store stock and of course e-bay and the local use market...
After reading reviews and watching videos of the new engine you can make a wiser decision on buying or if you should avoid the engine.
I don't pre-order because, like a couple posters above have already mentioned, I want to see, feel, touch, and more importantly READ about the item before I drop hard earned (and scarce) money down on the item. If it means I miss out on the item because to few were produced and those that were had already been spoken for via pre-order or whatever...oh well, such is life. I have read too many stories/posts where people have dropped a chunk of coin down on an unseen/unreviewed/untested product only to be disappointed...and slightly less wealthy . Hey, each to their own and if pre-ordering is your bag then have at it and enjoy. It's just not for me personally.
Happy modeling!
Don.
"Ladies and gentlemen, I have some good news and some bad news. The bad news is that both engines have failed, and we will be stuck here for some time. The good news is that you decided to take the train and not fly."
I have experience in the retail business, buying and selling... nationally. The company, big or small, that does the best job of keeping inventories low and turnover high is the winner provided they make sound business decisions in other areas also. I don't know what type financial arrangements most mrr companies have to make with the actual manufacturer, how much money they have to put up front. Depends on how well they can negotiate a contract and what their past record is on orders/payments etc..... I suppose.
Could it be, with the advent of the internet, selling has gotten so competitive and actual profit margins so low that 'manufacturers' have no choice other than going to the pre-order business model?
As far as games go, I think I read somewhere that the video gaming industry makes more money annually that the Hollywood movie industry. The following quote is from the Seeking Alpha website..
"The one-day record holder for a movie premiere is Spiderman 3, which brought in $59 million in ticket sales on its opening day.Spring's opening blockbuster brought in $500 million in sales. It was the biggest entertainment opening ever. But it wasn't a movie…Grand Theft Auto IV, a video game, recorded sales of $310 million… on its first day."
That is a chunk o' change.
I have no idea what I will want to buy six months from now.
I don't pre-order.
If that means a company doesn't want me as a customer that is their decision and I can live with it.
Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
With the QC problems some manufacturers are having I would think long and hard about plunking down some hard cash for a unseen model.
At least when I buy a engine on line I've already read reviews and watch videos on you tube and have a general idea of what I'm buying or I will find out why the engine is to be avoid.
This thread, like many many others like it will most likely be *locked* sooner than later as a flame war topic.
There is something in the business world called 'JIT,' standing for "just in time" in the manufacturing and business Sector. It means supplies/products, etc. Come "just at the right time they are wanted or need". Why? you ask? because space, stockpiling and warehousing supplies/parts/products COSTS money! So delivery will be "JIT".
The other business tactic is the "preorder" suppliers to make sure the 'JIT' is "perfect", with no more, no less than needed.This is supposed to guarantee a "sell out" and have none or few left over on the shelves anywhere.It also "guarantees' The manufacturer can produce enough for ther profits to happen. If not enouhg pre-orders,then not produced.
Here is the main reason you will get a backlash:
The problems early on in the MRRing field was that suppliers/LHS's/online etailers were requiring a full paid upfront or partial downpayment on Per-orders, and often the manufacturer would either shove off production so far into the future, or NOT produce the item at all. This meant retailers had to refund money they most likely had already SPENT and did not have then to refund, so ALL PRE-ORDER payments stoppped. Now payments SHOULD be charged/paid ONLY when the item is delivered or ships.
I pre-ordered ONCE, and will NEVER AGAIN.. I didn't have to pay up front, but ordered about a year in advance of it's intended delivery date. It Came in about 2 months late, and when they called me about them, to say they were in, My financial picuture had changed drastically. Whereas I could aford them when I ordered them and had the money then, I had major repair bills to house and vehicle that drained that cash option. They offered me a payment plan which I took, but still meant paying off the CC over time that I could not budget for. So never again for me. IT MIGHT, but that is a LOOSE MIGHT have been better if I pre-paid, but that would have ment less morning for the vehicle repair, the new furnace I had to have installed, etc. The money went where it was really needed, not on some "toys" for this "big boy"!
If the hobby fails, and I say IF {another flame topic} I say it will due to the pre-order, JIT, and failed production syndromes as people are getting tired of it. The waiting is the hardest part and the total cancellations of production is heartbreaking to many.
Look at the recent track supply problem. Many wanting to start in the hobby cannot because of lack of available track! WHe itr DOEs become avaiable, it is GONE quickly, a sucessfull sell-out!
I prefer items to be shelf-ready when I want what I want when i want it!!! I want to see, touch,feel smell, taste a product before I buy it. So do many others.
On the other hand, It MAY keep knuckle heads like me from spending too much money {like I should NOT have above}.
Some MRRers can preoreder and wait the up to 3 yearss for an item or not be upset if it gets cancelled. BUT, Mnay ALSO are severely disappointed when the product either gets further delayed or cancelled.
-G .
Just my thoughts, ideas, opinions and experiences. Others may vary.
HO and N Scale.
After long and careful thought, they have convinced me. I have come to the conclusion that they are right. The aliens did it.
Gidday Gary, I'm just thinking out loud so don't take anything I say too seriously!!! and besides my thoughts are in no particular order.
Can video gaming and model railroading be compared when it comes to numbers of participants? With no basis of fact I would think that model railroaders would be a very small drop in the ocean of gamers. Does the disparity of numbers actually have any relevance in this discussion??
A deposit up front would be a good idea, far too many people are all keen at demanding that X is a must have item yet when if they have to put their money where their mouth is , they are suddenly missing in action. Strange that eh !!
What we model railroaders tend to forget is that a lot of the model railroad manufacturers are not large multi national corporations but fellow enthusiasts with the good ideas and desire to share them and perhaps make a few dollars on the side (?) and while complaints regarding dishonoured arrangements are thankfully very few and far between, I'm afraid I work far too hard to let my money possibly disappear into someones pockets.
Self discipline, perhaps an old fashioned concept but over the years if I've wanted an item badly enough I've put money aside, in the bank, and forgotten about it until I've got the purchase price, then Bingo!! Getting a Wife, kids and a mortgage tend to change priorities so at times that money put aside has become unforgotten.
To be fair I personally don't like the concept of pre-ordering, but understand why it happens, and so consider myself very lucky that I'm not hanging out on someone offering to perhaps manufacture the AlcoEMD GP109-262 Phase 190 in the autumn 1912 Union Burlington freight colour scheme, (with out the Mars light.)
Cheers, the Bear.
"One difference between pessimists and optimists is that while pessimists are more often right, optimists have far more fun."
This thought occurred to me moments ago and begged the question why had I not pondered it sooner.
In the model railroading world a pre order is free there is no upfront money, whereas in the video gaming world a pre order requires money up front.
If I had the chance to put money up front on some stuff I had pre ordered but cancelled due to complete lack of hours at my PoE, I may still have been able to get it if I had put money down up front.
Before there's a mass backlash to this thread atleast allow me to say that putting money down up front could be offered as an option for pre ordering model train stuff. Like say the upcoming F3's made by IM that I really wanted. they came in two tone green and would've been perfect on point of my Centralian set.
Another thing that would work is placing a small amount and paying it off as the release date nears, (Gaming companies do this).
SP&S modeler, 1960's give or take a decade or two for some equipment.
http://www.youtube.com/user/SGTDUPREY?feature=guide
Gary DuPrey
N scale model railroader