mlehman More cars and variations being produced also make it far more likely that something specific the modeler wants will be produced.
More cars and variations being produced also make it far more likely that something specific the modeler wants will be produced.
Perhaps this is a fundamental assumption that needs questioning. Is it really true? In one sense it is, but in another, it may be a miscalculation. On one end is the model everyone can use, but isn't perfect for many. On the other end is the model that only a few people want. Yes, those few people are getting exactly what they want. But is that highly specialized, almost "custom" market sufficient to sustain the hobby as a whole?
For example, my latest purchases have been from the used market. I'm still going to have to paint them since I couldn't find the scheme I needed, and I'll have to fabricate some missing parts, so my work will be about the same as if I had started with a generic Undec. When these were on the market new, I didn't need them. When I did need 'em, they were no longer available new. Likewise, what's on the market today, I don't need. Yet I can't afford to buy product I don't need on the off chance I might need it someday.
To me the best solution is for the manufacturers to have a somewhat steady stream of certain standards that will sell at a steady pace while they then bring one of a kinds for the specialty market. A steady core stream would level things out and keep buyers buying between the big "splash" models.
mlehman Things seem to have calmed somewhat, so let's continue, because I think there's fundamentally more agreement here than disagreement, as shocking as that might sound. Sheldon, I was thinking of smaller outfits and got to thinking after I wrote that it probably doesn't apply to the Atlases, Athearns, Bachmanns, etc of our little neck of the hobby universe as we were discussing here. That and start-ups that never quite started up. I vaguely recall a SD-40, passenger cars, maybe a throttle, but my CRS doesn't pull up details. In any case, I don't think you're suggesting that the laws of capitalism should be suspended for model railroading. And it's certainly true that many small businesses, no matter what the field, are just one bad decision away from going broke -- and do so regularly. Yes, it is about knowing your customers at all levels in this biz. Sure, buying a inventory on your best hunches and then seeing what sells is one way to determine what they want. Another is clearly pre-ordering, whatever you may think of the practice. Guess which one is less costly in terms of capital, probably gives a better idea of how many models might actually be sold, and has been widely adopted in the industry? All I can say is that folks who have adopted it seem to be doing OK financially in a tough environment -- they're still bringing in new product regularly -- and that it isn't what one or two outliers are doing. It's virtually an industry standard, at least for those vendors who make a practice of importing stock from overseas. I also don't see how things now are really all that different than in the past for a hobby shop committed to stocking trains. Instead of ordering the same carton of 40' boxcars with the same selection of roadnames and numbers twice or three times a year, you order in what's available in the warehouse at your distributor or vendor. I guess I don't see how the first option does much for the regular customer, which as folks know are the bread-and-butter of retail, but how the second option is more likely to generate an impulse buy. There's something else going on here that also hasn't been mentioned. As we know, most hobby shops either have an online presence or are seriously thinking about it. When that does happen, that inventory that used to be picked over by folks mostly within 30 miles or less of the store is now available on the web. Now consider that car that came in that turned out everyone wants. Now it's possible for people all over the world to be checking Podunk Junction's inventory. That means even when stuff is stocked in a particular hobby shop because of the good judgement of the owner and turns out to be popular, the local guy that wants it may get beat if he didn't pre-order. And the store owner who does still order for stock still needs to be careful, because unsold stock could build-up that no one wants, because there were too many produced for the demand. That's what tended to build up in the old days when inventory was relatively cheaper. Special ordering is part of it, but it's actually about the cost of inventory overall and that probably wouldn't change even if we went back to the same car paint and road number stocked for years. The real trick in retail is keeping the shelves stocked with merchandise that sells. Pre-ordering is pretty tangential in my book to whether or not a shop owner decides to stock his shelves or not. It certainly doesn't prevent it in any way I can figure out. One's inventory is determined by access to capital, customer knowledge, and good judgment from being in the trade. Special ordering simply provides a more varied palette of choices. More cars and variations being produced also make it far more likely that something specific the modeler wants will be produced. Should that then be stocked to eternity? Probably not. People anymore rarely buy duplicate car numbers unless doing a unit train, even if they're not that big on prototype conformity otherwise. And someone else is probably thinking of a car they'd like produced, which if the vendors is smart, they move on to do. Yes, you do need to grab things when they are available, but if you don't, they're still available somewhere at some price that can be found through the internet. Finally, I suspect your aversion to modern modeling is coloring your views on this more than you may realize. I think it's a generational thing, I certainly share the same aversion. But the idea of there always being new product to sell by keepin' up with the Joneses is a marketing dept's dream, if for no other reason than to keep things from getting stale.
Things seem to have calmed somewhat, so let's continue, because I think there's fundamentally more agreement here than disagreement, as shocking as that might sound.
Sheldon,
I was thinking of smaller outfits and got to thinking after I wrote that it probably doesn't apply to the Atlases, Athearns, Bachmanns, etc of our little neck of the hobby universe as we were discussing here. That and start-ups that never quite started up. I vaguely recall a SD-40, passenger cars, maybe a throttle, but my CRS doesn't pull up details. In any case, I don't think you're suggesting that the laws of capitalism should be suspended for model railroading. And it's certainly true that many small businesses, no matter what the field, are just one bad decision away from going broke -- and do so regularly.
Yes, it is about knowing your customers at all levels in this biz. Sure, buying a inventory on your best hunches and then seeing what sells is one way to determine what they want. Another is clearly pre-ordering, whatever you may think of the practice. Guess which one is less costly in terms of capital, probably gives a better idea of how many models might actually be sold, and has been widely adopted in the industry? All I can say is that folks who have adopted it seem to be doing OK financially in a tough environment -- they're still bringing in new product regularly -- and that it isn't what one or two outliers are doing. It's virtually an industry standard, at least for those vendors who make a practice of importing stock from overseas.
I also don't see how things now are really all that different than in the past for a hobby shop committed to stocking trains. Instead of ordering the same carton of 40' boxcars with the same selection of roadnames and numbers twice or three times a year, you order in what's available in the warehouse at your distributor or vendor. I guess I don't see how the first option does much for the regular customer, which as folks know are the bread-and-butter of retail, but how the second option is more likely to generate an impulse buy.
There's something else going on here that also hasn't been mentioned. As we know, most hobby shops either have an online presence or are seriously thinking about it. When that does happen, that inventory that used to be picked over by folks mostly within 30 miles or less of the store is now available on the web. Now consider that car that came in that turned out everyone wants. Now it's possible for people all over the world to be checking Podunk Junction's inventory. That means even when stuff is stocked in a particular hobby shop because of the good judgement of the owner and turns out to be popular, the local guy that wants it may get beat if he didn't pre-order.
And the store owner who does still order for stock still needs to be careful, because unsold stock could build-up that no one wants, because there were too many produced for the demand. That's what tended to build up in the old days when inventory was relatively cheaper. Special ordering is part of it, but it's actually about the cost of inventory overall and that probably wouldn't change even if we went back to the same car paint and road number stocked for years.
The real trick in retail is keeping the shelves stocked with merchandise that sells. Pre-ordering is pretty tangential in my book to whether or not a shop owner decides to stock his shelves or not. It certainly doesn't prevent it in any way I can figure out. One's inventory is determined by access to capital, customer knowledge, and good judgment from being in the trade. Special ordering simply provides a more varied palette of choices. More cars and variations being produced also make it far more likely that something specific the modeler wants will be produced. Should that then be stocked to eternity? Probably not. People anymore rarely buy duplicate car numbers unless doing a unit train, even if they're not that big on prototype conformity otherwise. And someone else is probably thinking of a car they'd like produced, which if the vendors is smart, they move on to do. Yes, you do need to grab things when they are available, but if you don't, they're still available somewhere at some price that can be found through the internet.
Finally, I suspect your aversion to modern modeling is coloring your views on this more than you may realize. I think it's a generational thing, I certainly share the same aversion. But the idea of there always being new product to sell by keepin' up with the Joneses is a marketing dept's dream, if for no other reason than to keep things from getting stale.
Mike, I don't disagree with any of that. As you say there is likely more agreement than disagreement.
A few fine points if I may. There is a difference between the following:
Athearn announcing something they are definately going to make (we know they will make it, they have OWNED the tooling for 4 decades and sold them all every time), taking preorders from dealers, using that to guage demand, and possibly increasing or decreasing final production size, or scheduling a quickly timed second run.
VS,
BLI announcing a B&O P7 Pacific, taking preorders, showing artwork, issuing part numbers, never getting enough orders, scraping the project, years later reviving the project, doing a half way job by making a USRA light Pacific, sticking a USRA heavy Mikado boiler on it, getting the paint job, loco names and road numbers not correctly matched on half the production and calling that a success that I should be excited to buy - 4 or 5 years later?
While they may ALL be using preorders in one way or another, Athearn, Bachmann, Walthers, Bowser (who has canceled a few projects do to lack of interest), are still LARGELY making trains first, selling them second, not the other way around.
It may be a fine point, but there is a difference.
Sure shops should special order, sure, nobody can have EVERYTHING in stock ALL the time.
You make the comment about source of supply, and we have talked about this before. To sell at any discount of 20% or more, you need to be buying at least most of your product direct from the manufacturer - or you are doomed to failure. You may not believe that, and there may be a few guys with no overhead who can work on next to no margin, but for the most part, it can not be done.
There is an old joke among hobby shop owners:
"how do you make a small fortune in the hobby business?" - "start with a large one"
Yes it is a tough business, preorders have not made it better.
As for inventory that does not sell, we never tracked that by item (there were no computer inventories), we tracked the DOLLAR turnover of our inventory. As long as that was were it should be, we assumed every piece of inventory we had, had value. Sure, you would occasionally identify something that was no longer selling, and not reorder it when it did sell. Or even have a "small" sale to send it on its way. But never did you look at stuff like Athearn freight cars and say this stuff has been here too long - let's blow it out.
Make the trains, then sell them.
Sheldon
BRAKIE Burlington Northern #24ok, my reasons for my thoughts and my thoughts on this topic still stand. Thank you for your responses guys, seems like I'm the odd man out. No,not the odd man out..You're a N Scaler which means you need to buy what you want now or lament later like I said earlier. N Scale doesn't give much of a option if you need that (say) GN GP35 in BSB since very few is made above the pre orders and has the tenancy to sell out quickly...
Burlington Northern #24ok, my reasons for my thoughts and my thoughts on this topic still stand. Thank you for your responses guys, seems like I'm the odd man out.
No,not the odd man out..You're a N Scaler which means you need to buy what you want now or lament later like I said earlier.
N Scale doesn't give much of a option if you need that (say) GN GP35 in BSB since very few is made above the pre orders and has the tenancy to sell out quickly...
SP&S modeler, 1960's give or take a decade or two for some equipment.
http://www.youtube.com/user/SGTDUPREY?feature=guide
Gary DuPrey
N scale model railroader
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
"JaBear" Burlington Northern #24Bear I never got to answer your post, I had been saving and waiting but recent events have caused the money for the locomotives to disappear because money was directed towards other things that were not MRRing purchases. my last Model railroading purchase was probably in late may, early June I can't remember when. My work also cut my hours down to zero so I've lost a lot in money and time, hopefully I can get a new job soon. Gidday Gary. Cold comfort, for a young bloke,I know but I suspect that most of us on this forum have gone or still go through your scenario from time to time. I've got a quiet patch now but as my signature indicates I prefer to look on the optimistic side of life, and besides I do have projects stashed away so I can keep my hand in. Hope things work your way. Cheers, the Bear.
Burlington Northern #24Bear I never got to answer your post, I had been saving and waiting but recent events have caused the money for the locomotives to disappear because money was directed towards other things that were not MRRing purchases. my last Model railroading purchase was probably in late may, early June I can't remember when. My work also cut my hours down to zero so I've lost a lot in money and time, hopefully I can get a new job soon.
Gidday Gary. Cold comfort, for a young bloke,I know but I suspect that most of us on this forum have gone or still go through your scenario from time to time. I've got a quiet patch now but as my signature indicates I prefer to look on the optimistic side of life, and besides I do have projects stashed away so I can keep my hand in. Hope things work your way.
Cheers, the Bear.
"One difference between pessimists and optimists is that while pessimists are more often right, optimists have far more fun."
ok, my reasons for my thoughts and my thoughts on this topic still stand. Thank you for your responses guys, seems like I'm the odd man out.
and we made it 4 pages with out a lock.
Bear I never got to answer your post, I had been saving and waiting but recent events have caused the money for the locomotives to disappear because money was directed towards other things that were not MRRing purchases. my last Model railroading purchase was probably in late may, early June I can't remember when. My work also cut my hours down to zero so I've lost a lot in money and time, hopefully I can get a new job soon.
EMD.Don BRAKIE Burlington Northern #24 ok, so it's an unfavorable thing for the hobby according to some. I can see why you guys don't want to pay on pre orders but what if it were an option? For me the answer would be no way.. Why? A lot of the new releases have QC issues..I would rather wait and read reviews and watch videos on the new engine on you tube then base my purchase on my judgment. Me too! I model on a hard and tight budget (and I doubt that I am alone in that...and I doubt that that is something new in this hobby). That doesn't mean that I don't want/desire/covet subject A. Nor does it mean that subject A is out of my price range or that pre-ordering is beyond my financial means. It merely means (...to me...) that I cannot risk tying up a tight modeling budget on something that may or may not happen, or may or may not perform for the amount of cash dropped on said item (a.k.a QC issues). I want to know that item A is worth what I am dropping coinage wise pior to dropping said coinage. Now, some astute individual will counter that there are no guarantees in life regardless. And I agree. However, I like to mitigate the risks and go from there. Hence no pre-order for this modeler. If I snooze and lose...so-be-it. Them's the brakes and such is life. No mambe-pambe, everyone's a winner here. I simply cannot take the risk....personally. But if you can and want to...have at it! I have survived this long and suspect that I can still hang on for awhile longer . Each to their own. Happy modeling. Don.
BRAKIE Burlington Northern #24 ok, so it's an unfavorable thing for the hobby according to some. I can see why you guys don't want to pay on pre orders but what if it were an option? For me the answer would be no way.. Why? A lot of the new releases have QC issues..I would rather wait and read reviews and watch videos on the new engine on you tube then base my purchase on my judgment.
Burlington Northern #24 ok, so it's an unfavorable thing for the hobby according to some. I can see why you guys don't want to pay on pre orders but what if it were an option?
For me the answer would be no way..
Why?
A lot of the new releases have QC issues..I would rather wait and read reviews and watch videos on the new engine on you tube then base my purchase on my judgment.
Me too! I model on a hard and tight budget (and I doubt that I am alone in that...and I doubt that that is something new in this hobby). That doesn't mean that I don't want/desire/covet subject A. Nor does it mean that subject A is out of my price range or that pre-ordering is beyond my financial means. It merely means (...to me...) that I cannot risk tying up a tight modeling budget on something that may or may not happen, or may or may not perform for the amount of cash dropped on said item (a.k.a QC issues). I want to know that item A is worth what I am dropping coinage wise pior to dropping said coinage. Now, some astute individual will counter that there are no guarantees in life regardless. And I agree. However, I like to mitigate the risks and go from there. Hence no pre-order for this modeler. If I snooze and lose...so-be-it. Them's the brakes and such is life. No mambe-pambe, everyone's a winner here. I simply cannot take the risk....personally. But if you can and want to...have at it! I have survived this long and suspect that I can still hang on for awhile longer . Each to their own.
Happy modeling.
Don.
Don, well said. I too am very "risk adverse", not just with model trains but with most financial matters, and it has served me well in life.
I have said on here many time how I only buy models that fit my theme and that I am not a "random collector". Also, I have in 40 plus years at this hobby, only purchased one or two models I latter changed my mind about and sold.
I have most everything I have purchased in the last 35-40 years. I think carefully before buying and am not an "impulse" shopper.
I would be seriously po'ed if I plunked down the big bucks for some preorder and it turned out to be a dog.
Still shopping at those shops with big bloated inventories of model trains that actually exist.
"Ladies and gentlemen, I have some good news and some bad news. The bad news is that both engines have failed, and we will be stuck here for some time. The good news is that you decided to take the train and not fly."
Well, I only preordered one time, and it worked out OK, but I don't like the price games that seem to be played with the brands that promote the "preorder" scheme the most.
Now I special order all sorts of stuff from my LHS that is in stock somewhere - but these are products with know track records, not vapor wear that may not run worth a darn.
jmbjmb Burlington Northern #24 I really want to pay up front for my models. I do it for my video games and it has yet to fail me. Paying up front is what I'm trying to avoid. Been burned by that on locomotives. Yep, manufacturer was coming out with just what I wanted, in the paint scheme I wanted. But had to pay deposit up front. We'll wanting this product, I bit the bullet and put down the deposit (at least I used my Amex). And then ................ waiting .................. Finally, the product arrived in the states, couldn't wait to get mine. Only it never showed up. Waited some more. Called the shop that took the order (on line shop, no LHS near me, but it was one of the biggies with good reputation). Oh, sorry they said. All sold out. Even though I PREORDERED and they had my money for a year, they didn't order enough, but if the demand was high enough they might make it again and I could PREORDER again next time. At least, like I said, I used my AMEX card and got my money back, but they had had it for a year, using my money to finance their product development and purchases, and then not making enough product to meet demand. A preorder wasn't a customer to them; it was an interest free loan. Preorder is good only for the manufacturer, not the customer, and not for the hobby as a whole over the long term.
Burlington Northern #24 I really want to pay up front for my models. I do it for my video games and it has yet to fail me.
I really want to pay up front for my models. I do it for my video games and it has yet to fail me.
Paying up front is what I'm trying to avoid. Been burned by that on locomotives. Yep, manufacturer was coming out with just what I wanted, in the paint scheme I wanted. But had to pay deposit up front. We'll wanting this product, I bit the bullet and put down the deposit (at least I used my Amex). And then ................ waiting .................. Finally, the product arrived in the states, couldn't wait to get mine. Only it never showed up. Waited some more. Called the shop that took the order (on line shop, no LHS near me, but it was one of the biggies with good reputation). Oh, sorry they said. All sold out. Even though I PREORDERED and they had my money for a year, they didn't order enough, but if the demand was high enough they might make it again and I could PREORDER again next time. At least, like I said, I used my AMEX card and got my money back, but they had had it for a year, using my money to finance their product development and purchases, and then not making enough product to meet demand. A preorder wasn't a customer to them; it was an interest free loan.
Preorder is good only for the manufacturer, not the customer, and not for the hobby as a whole over the long term.
jmbjmbPaying up front is what I'm trying to avoid
Russell
jeffrey-wimberly This thread is wandering away from pre-ordering again. I saved it from being locked once already.
This thread is wandering away from pre-ordering again. I saved it from being locked once already.
There is a small manufacturer business model (used to be called basement manufacturers and sellers) that can and does work. On the manufacturing side, it features small quantity production using techniques such as photo-etching, resin and metal casting, and laser wood cutting. These small manufacturers best serve hobby niches where demand is not big, and kits are more appreciated than RTR. After all, assembly labor is at a premium for the small manufacturer. But the business model doesn't scale up in size very well. As a result, most of the small manufacturers go out of business after a decade or two when the owner gets tired of the business.
Actually, some of these small manufacturers can last a long time if someone is willing to take them over. Silver Streak kits are still being manufactured by Ye Olde Huff n Puff. http://www.yeoldehuffnpuff.com/sstreakkits.htm Suydam structure models are still being made by Alpine Division Models. http://www.alpinemodels.com/index.html . LaBelle Woodworking is still in business even if it has moved from Oconomowoc, WI to Cheyenne, WI: https://www.labellemodels.com/ , Of course, LaBelle appeals only to those whose interest is in early 20th Century railroading.
There are other manufacturers that have been around a while like Bethelehem Car Works, that specializes in passenger cars (generally East Coast prototypes) and a number of their kits sell for about the same as Walthers RTR passenger kits. The BCW kits come less trucks and couplers.
Of course, you'll have to pay full retail, (oh the horror!) because these items aren't discounted.
I wonder how many people would be willing to pay $60 for a caboose kit that, while it comes with trucks, will have to be painted as well as assembled. I wonder how many people would be willing to assemble the caboose even if given one as a gift. Here are the instructions. http://www.wrighttrak.com/attachments/File/SP_Caboose_Instructions.pdf Since there are several variations for the caboose, it might be wise to have a copy of Tony Thompson's "Southern Pacific Freight Cars Volume 2: Cabooses" for reference and an aid to deciding which variation you want.. There's a copy available on eBay not. Only $94.99 plus shipping. At least you can amortize the cost of the book across multiple caboose projects.
As far as locomotives go, the Brits are lucky in that they have DJH. Of course, the Brits use 3 different gauge combinations for 4MM scale so that motors, gears and wheels have to be ordered separately. However, DJH does make some HO scale kits that include everything and one of them is a US Army Transportation Corps S160 2-8-0. It sells for 325 GBP (about $500 US). http://www.djhmodelloco.co.uk/prodpage.asp?productid=3073 Those who have been around for a while will remember that DJH did some US kits, an NYC J-1D Hudson, USRA Light 4-6-2 and 2-8-2 and an ATSF 3160 Class 2-8-2. Round about the early 90's, these kits were discontinued and blown out because no one was buying them. They were good kits, but weren't cheap. As I recall, they were selling north of $250/each in the late 1980's.
Anybody willing to pay over $450 US for a 2-6-2T tank engine? http://www.ironhorsehobbies.co.nz/wa-locomotive-s-scale-1-64-kitset.html
It's one of the ironies of modern life that the only place you can get Sn3 steam locomotive kits is from a country that has a population less than half that of Los Angeles County http://www.railmaster.co.nz/railway/loco.htm
Andre
Dr. Frankendiesel aka Scott Running BearSpace Mouse for president!15 year veteran fire fighterCollector of Apple //e'sRunning Bear EnterprisesHistory Channel Club life member.beatus homo qui invenit sapientiam
zstripe Sheldon, GOTTA,,hand it to you Sheldon,,,,,''Good Show'',,''Jolly Good Show'' Cheers, Frank
GOTTA,,hand it to you Sheldon,,,,,''Good Show'',,''Jolly Good Show''
Cheers,
Frank
Alton Junction
richhotrain ATLANTIC CENTRAL Name one. I have ben in this hobby and in and out of this business for 40 years, I know of no company that went under because of one looser product. You name the company, and there is a good chance I know the history, Bachmann
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Name one. I have ben in this hobby and in and out of this business for 40 years, I know of no company that went under because of one looser product. You name the company, and there is a good chance I know the history,
Name one. I have ben in this hobby and in and out of this business for 40 years, I know of no company that went under because of one looser product.
You name the company, and there is a good chance I know the history,
Bachmann
Bachmann, originally a 1900's Philadelpia brush manufacturer, who later got into the injection molded train set structure business (Plasticville), and later started importing cheap Hong Kong train sets.
Molding brush handles and plastic buildings used the same machinery.
Kader bought the company to have an American name and base to market their products in North America - Hired Lee Riley of Pro Custom Hobbies to develop "modeler grade" product line - short version.
DON7,
If I recall correctly, BLI,in the part two Video,of the Atlanta Train Show,,showed Cody,one of their new engines,,,A SW 1...
This hobby is littered with the bones of those who took good companies and miscalled a new product, bringing down the whole company and the other products they made with it. Better a cancellation than a hasty rush to market or bringing down the whole company in the process of not knowing when to say no.
I had thought that I would be unlikely to preorder any model railroad item. I prefer to read reviews about the item and now with the computer age you can quite often check u-tube and see the product running.
That changed when BLI announced that they were going to produce a HO Great Northern locomotive the S1 Northern engine.
BLI requested those who would buy the product to preorder, there was no cost associated with the preorder.
I did per-order, I, sent a note that I would buy at least two if not three engines. On their site at that time you could preorder the locomotive. (How many remember that BLI used to maintain a Forum)
On the calender that BLI kept this engine kept being delayed, this went on for a couple of years, then, finally they announced that they would not produce that engine as there was just not enough interest.
The next time I ran across an item that I was interested in was the Rapido HO Canadian, a full set of three engines and 10 passenger cars.You had your choice of which era and paint scheme.
This time the preorder came with a cost, a deposit of around $400 if I remember correctly. This deposit was to be refundable should the item not be produced. The total cost was approximately $1,300.
I had purchased a number of Rapido HO passenger coaches and was very impressed with them, I had a number of these coaches in CNR, GN and CPR road names. These coaches were very detailed, tracked well and in the case of support Rapido was great, a truck badly our of alignment, a replacement set sent out the next day, a problem with a paint job and a replacement body was sent out. Quality control was less than perfect, but any complaint was taken care of.
I decided to buy two of these sets in two different eras.
The product was late as there were delays, these were always mentioned in their newsletters, I would rather wait until an item was fully completed rather than accept something that was incorrect.
When the model was finally produced, there were a few minor problems, but service was excellent and those problems were speedily dealt with.
Should Rapido consider making any item that I was interested in I would not hesitate to preorder, and it the item was to be rather expensive, I would certainly pay a deposit, refundable of course.
mlehmanOn the other hand, I do expect a shop to have a lot of the basics: scenery materials, various specialties like couplers, scratchbuilding supplies, paint. But I've been told before here you don't make any money on that. On the other hand, if that's what customers want?
Yes,basic stock will help the bottom line far better then a fat zero because its not in stock.
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And how exactly are shops supposed to stock in the limited-run environment of today. Buy one of everything? Buy nothing and order in everything? Nope, somewhere in between. that fabulous gray area where the certainty that if we just stocked far fewer SKUs, it would somehow be a better, more profitable hobby for everyone sort of fades into the fog of reality.
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Here's where good common sense in knowing your customers needs come into play..You order what sells locally.
As a example no need to order a W.P. GP9 if such doesn't sell.Now you know C&O sells so,you buy extra.
To draw the crowds why not have a 10% off (say) freight cars one Saturday morning and next Saturday 10% off locomotives? You will still make money on your "eye candy" which leads to impulse buying.
Don't laugh..It works like a charm. Its simple old school "suck 'em in" method that major box stores use today to entice customers to enter their store then its "welcome to the parlor said the spider to the fly."
We see it as their weekly sales flyer.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL I will repeat, we could see this coming back then, We could see the discounting coming. My owner and I knew then it would be "go big or go home". ANY retailer in any industry must understand and know his market and have the right size store and enough capital to be effective - business has been that way forever.
I will repeat, we could see this coming back then, We could see the discounting coming. My owner and I knew then it would be "go big or go home". ANY retailer in any industry must understand and know his market and have the right size store and enough capital to be effective - business has been that way forever.
In my thinking, that is a key take-away. Most of the mid-size, train-only, hobby shops have gone by the wayside. The same is true for the importer/manufacturers. There has to be sufficient capital, and sufficient diversity in product for when things go wrong. The collapse (took far more orders than they could produce) and buyout of Sanda Kan has caused near failure of more than one line of Chinese-built locomotives.
just my thoughts
Fred W
BRAKIEPaul,I don't think anybody is suggesting a shop needs to stock everything.. A shop does need to keep current up to date stock.
Larry,
I don't think you said it, but several others suggested that it was either that or an empty store -- because it's a lot easier to knock down strawmen here online than to determine what customers want. I actually don't expect to find much of what I specifically may want when I walk into any hobby shop, except Caboose and a few others, because I'm in narrowgauge.
On the other hand, I do expect a shop to have a lot of the basics: scenery materials, various specialties like couplers, scratchbuilding supplies, paint. But I've been told before here you don't make any money on that. On the other hand, if that's what customers want?
I think Paul has some very good points about how difficult it is to keep stock when customer needs are wide-ranging. The thing that keeps customers like that, like me, is service.
I really don't know anything about the stalled BLI project. Too "East Coast" for me, that one. But even knowing nothing, I have to ask: Would the project have even been attempted without pre-orders? This sounds like a vendor trying to ascertain if demand for a loco that is decidedly middle of the pack in potential customer demand is there to support at least one run. If the answer is "Not Yet" then wait a little longer may be the right call. Should they produce a loco that the numbers tell them can't sell well enough to make a profit?
If there was no pre-order system, in the old days a vendor might just go ahead and build a bunch, then find themselves stuck with a bunch -- probably far more than the small numbers that draw close-out pricing and customers saying "No Fair! when they see it...it wouldn't be that cheap if they were really making a profit, so how could they sell the whole run at close-out price??? Nope, doesn't make sense to me either, just as building locos you're not sure you have customers for doesn't.
Finally, is it the vendor's fault when they invest money to get a project started, then find they'll not recover what it takes to bring it to market? No, it isn't, if enough people aren't willing to buy into their dream of a great product. Instead of condemning folks for putting announced projects on hold or canceling them altogether under those circumstances, we should be glad they have the good business judgment to do so. This hobby is littered with the bones of those who took good companies and miscalled a new product, bringing down the whole company and the other products they made with it. Better a cancellation than a hasty rush to market or bringing down the whole company in the process of not knowing when to say no.
richhotrain ATLANTIC CENTRAL Paying for your preorder would not solve the problems of companies like Broadway Limited who announce stuff and never make it, or who take years to follow through, or better yet, take years and then still get the model wrong by taking short cuts, and simply don't care, like BLI did with their Pacifics. How often has that occurred with BLI? Just curious. Rich
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Paying for your preorder would not solve the problems of companies like Broadway Limited who announce stuff and never make it, or who take years to follow through, or better yet, take years and then still get the model wrong by taking short cuts, and simply don't care, like BLI did with their Pacifics.
Paying for your preorder would not solve the problems of companies like Broadway Limited who announce stuff and never make it, or who take years to follow through, or better yet, take years and then still get the model wrong by taking short cuts, and simply don't care, like BLI did with their Pacifics.
How often has that occurred with BLI?
Just curious.
Rich
Rich, I have not tracked all the stuff, but just from the unhappy people waiting on here, and the stuff I know the details about like the Pacifics, it is a lot. Projects have been announced, never done, pushed back for years, done poorly, etc. Personally I am so unimpressed with that company.....but that is just me, I know I an "old fashioned" in my views on a lot of stuff.