S&S:
Reread your original post carefully and pay particular attention to the things you chose to highlight.
You posted a list of possibilities, all of which pointed to the CEO being at fault and you then complained about the CEO's actions since the accident. You credited your Dad with the list.
I am not an auditor, but I spent many years as an investigator, a trainer, and a supervisor. People frequently fail to do things they were trained and/or ordered to do. Sometimes it is intentional, sometimes it is just an innocent error. It is not possible for the CEO to monitor all employees all the time. It is not automatically his fault if one of them fails.
A dispassionate investigation is required to determine what happened here. There is insufficient information in the various press articles for anyone here to make a determination who is at fault. There is insufficient information available to us for us to claim anyone is a scapegoat. I have no idea why the engineer has been suspended, but I bet the CEO does.
It will be interesting to see the results of the investigation. There are many possibilities. It could be employee negligence, it could be inadequate rules or training, it could by criminal activity by someone not associated with the rail road.
Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
My apologies to you and my Dad.
My dad came up with the list, I came up with the elaborations. Everything in bold is my dad's. I definitely messed up. I'm ticked off at the CEO, and it came through. I'm sorry.
I should have emphasized that it seems that the management system failed, and the CEO's actions seem suspicious, or possibly misinformed. The CEO has not handled this well.
I can't wait to see what they find as well. Criminal activity seems unlikely to me, but still a definite possibility. I like the negligence option. Failing to set enough handbrakes when on a grade is just plain ignorant.
Although not his fault, the CEO is the public face of the company, and again, he did not handle this well. Even if the attitude at a railroad is "stuff happens", that view should never be expressed to the public.
Again, I'm sorry for letting my anger at the CEO influence my writing.
S&S
Modeling the Pennsy and loving it!
No apology is required. Discussion is how differences of opinion are resolved.
I do not know anything about the CEO or that particular railroad. As such, I have no opinion of either.
Still friends?
One thing I did notice was that Mr. Burkhardt ardently defended his employee at first. That then changed. The things that people are bagging on him for where said prior to whatever changed with regard to new information that now makes the employee's actions suspect.
Yes, too soon to judge here about the specifics.
I'll stand by my argument that this incident requires an examination of rules and operating practices to see if they are sufficient to deal with the hazards known to exist now, if not prior to this tragedy. Crude oil is nasty stuff, but in terms of its potential to injure by exposure it's way down the list of some really nasty things that are transported by rail. Part of the reason for rail transport in the first place is the assurance of safety and integrity of the system with some of these substances, because road transport and other methods pose greater risks. This is an advantage I'm sure the railroads don't want to sacrifice by failing to address all the issues this incident raises.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
I thought he flip-flopped a lot. Could have been that he just changed his story as he got new information. Still, changing your story too many times costs your public opinion because it looks like you are constantly misinformed or ignorant. When giving a press conference, you should never speculate.
Still have to give Mr. Burkhardt points for defending his employee initially.
As well as an examination of the actions of employees and condition of equipment, an examination of rules and procedures of both the railroad and any regulatory agencies are always part of an investigation like this.
Phoebe Vet:
If you Google Rail World Inc. there is an entire page on their site dedicated to Mr. Burkhardt. Seems a bit showy for my tastes - in my opinion a paragraph or two would have been plenty on a company site - but it gives a pretty good background.
From what I've picked up on the MM&A, they have had what I would say is an unusually large number of accidents since 2003 when Rail World Inc. bought the line. To be more specific, there were over 140 accidents, several serious. They average just under 18 over 14 per year. Some Google searches for MM&A should turn up more. Not all places list all the accidents because some took place in the US and some in Canada, and apparently the MM&A did not report all the accidents to both.
mlehmanOne thing I did notice was that Mr. Burkhardt ardently defended his employee at first. That then changed. The things that people are bagging on him for where said prior to whatever changed with regard to new information that now makes the employee's actions suspect.
You're darn right a supervisor will stick up for his employees. It is expected. And it is expected that your employees will stick up for you. If that is not the case, you do not belong in that position. Beyond that Mr. Burkhardt should have kept to the line of how sorry he was that such a thing should happen, and what he can and will do to help set thing as right as possible. Obviously he cannot bring people back to life or heal the emotional wounds that have occurred. Buy you certainly do not want to make things worse.
You tell this to the press and you add that the investigation is continuing and that you are cooperating, and will cooperate with the findings of the TSBC. That is where you keep your focus and you do not undercut your employees. You stand by them until all of the facts are out and then if your employee is at fault you deal with that issue when it comes. You may say, "Yes, the employee has been suspended, and this is the standard practice in a situation like this and that nothing can be read into this."
ROAR
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
Mr. Burkhardt, CEO of Rail World Inc. and the MM&A made a serious blunder after he arrived in Quebec. The business language of Quebec is French, and Mr. Burkhardt talked in English, and did not bring any translators. This naturally caused outrage in Quebec, and even the Prime Minister was upset about this.
I would think that someone on Mr. Burkhardt's staff or one of his lawyers, etc. would have known that he should have spoken in French or had a translator with him. Perhaps he never got told, or it never made it up the chain of command.
BroadwayLionYou stand by them until all of the facts are out and then if your employee is at fault you deal with that issue when it comes.
This has generally been the case in incidents I have seen and had dealings with. The one thing I have wondered about is the employee in question has been suspended without pay. I have seen a lot of employees suspended in my years and it has always been with pay in these kind of situations. Also employees that have found themselves on the receiving end of an investigation have always been treated with a great deal of respect and handled with kid gloves pending the outcome. That is only being a good manager. Emotional finger pointing by any manager/CEO tells me they should not be holding that position.
There must be something already known, otherwise the company is putting itself in a questionable legal situation by removing a persons livelihood so early on after the incident. It is more cost effective to retain a person on the payroll than to deal with the fallout of punishing an innocent employee.
Brent
"All of the world's problems are the result of the difference between how we think and how the world works."
BATMANThere must be something already known, otherwise the company is putting itself in a questionable legal situation by removing a persons livelihood so early on after the incident.
Yeah, those were my thoughts. Something physical must have been found that called into question what I presume were the employee's original statements about tying down the brakes.
There was a great deal of destruction, but my guess is that the physical evidence may now show the proper number of hand brakes were not properly set, possibly putting previous statements in question. My guess is that when this is done, it is for the cars closest to the locos. I still haven't figured out if the locos led or were following the train's cars, so don't know if the cars in question led the way in the runaway or if they were on the other end and possibly less damaged.
I presume that a set brake would still indicate it was applied, while the lack of application would be similarly obvious. Anyone know?
mlehman I still haven't figured out if the locos led or were following the train's cars, so don't know if the cars in question led the way in the runaway or if they were on the other end and possibly less damaged.
I still haven't figured out if the locos led or were following the train's cars, so don't know if the cars in question led the way in the runaway or if they were on the other end and possibly less damaged.
There have been reports on CNN and elsewhere that there were 5 locomotives at the head end of the train, and that they went another 1/2 mile beyond the site of the derailment and fire before stopping.
I've got some updates on MMA from huffingtonpost.com and huffingtonpost.ca.
The engineer who was responsible for the train that derailed was involved in another incident not quite a year ago. On August 3, 2012, engineer Tom Harding operated a train that derailed in a Canadian National yard in Ste-Hyacinthe, Quebec. The CN spokesman wanted to make it very clear that Mr. Harding was a MMA employee at the time. http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2013/07/11/tom-harding-lac-megantic-explosion_n_3581552.html?utm_hp_ref=canada-business
20 people are now confirmed dead, and MMA and Rail World Inc. CEO Mr. Burkhardt said that "We think he applied some hand brakes, but the question is, did he apply enough of them? ... He said he applied 11 hand brakes. We think that's not true. Initially we believed him, but now we don't."
The article then takes a darker turn, where several MMA employees refer to several Quebec residents as a "------- frog" Here are some quotes from the article:
"In a sign of the tensions present, the Montreal Gazette reported Wednesday that an MMA employee from Illinois called a local resident a “------- frog” during a dispute over the taking of pictures. Gazette photographer John Kenney was taking pictures of parked MMA rail cars near Lac-Megantic Tuesday when an MMA employee, identifying himself only as an investigator from Illinois, “approached [Kenney] and screamed at him menacingly,” the newspaper reported."
"When a local resident, Alex Larabee, intervened in the dispute, he reportedly got an earful of abuse. “I asked him if [the rail cars] were leaking. I asked in French and he started swearing at me in English, calling me a ------- frog and all that,” Larabée said, as quoted at the Gazette. “It really shows their flagrant lack of respect for us (residents),” Larabee said."
"Quebec Premier Pauline Marois toured the devastated town Thursday, taking another opportunity to criticize MMA for its response to the crisis. Marois had earlier faulted Burkhardt for what she said was a slow response, and called the company's chief behaviour "deplorable'' and "unacceptable.'' She renewed some of the criticism Thursday."
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/07/10/quebec-train-crash-brakes_n_3574564.html Link is R rated for language.
Another article said that engineer was torn up about the wreck. "An employee at the inn where Harding slept one or two nights per week says she specifically remembers the horrified expression on his face when he scrambled outside following a massive blast and saw the inferno engulfing the town." "Catherine Pomerleau-Pelletier doesn't remember hearing him utter a word amid the chaos, but she thinks she was looking into his eyes the instant he realized his unmanned, crude-oil-filled train had just slammed into the downtown core."
" "I saw him arrive, I looked at him and I didn't say a word or anything because he looked very, very, very shaken up," said Pomerleau-Pelletier, a barmaid and receptionist at the century-old l'Eau Berge inn.
"He didn't do anything, but his face was pretty descriptive."
"It said everything." "
In addition the article added this bit of information from Mr. Harding's taxi driver that night. I find it rather interesting:
"The taxi driver met Harding on Friday night at the spot where he parked the train before it roared into town. He said his regular customer seemed fine, with nothing out of the ordinary. However, Andre Turcotte did say that the idling train appeared to be belching out more smoke than usual, so much so that he recalled that oil droplets from the locomotive exhaust landed on his car. He said he asked Harding twice whether the puffs of smoke were particularly hazardous for the environment. Turcotte said his client calmly responded that he had followed company directives to deal with the issue. A short time after they left, the locomotive caught fire, a blaze that was extinguished by the local fire department."
http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2013/07/11/colette-roy-laroche-lac-megantic-mayor_n_3581615.html
My friend, ex forum member TA462 was visiting some of his wife's relatives that live in the town of Lac Megantic when the accident happened. They were suppose to visit for a few days and then head east to PEI. I've sent a couple text messages but I haven't received any responses yet. Its very strange because anyone that knows Dave knows that his life revolves around his Blackberry. He wouldn't just turn it off. I hope they are OK and just relaxing on a lake somewhere with no phone or Internet service.
ONR FANMy friend, ex forum member TA462 was visiting some of his wife's relatives that live in the town of Lac Megantic when the accident happened. They were suppose to visit for a few days and then head east to PEI. I've sent a couple text messages but I haven't received any responses yet. Its very strange because anyone that knows Dave knows that his life revolves around his Blackberry. He wouldn't just turn it off. I hope they are OK and just relaxing on a lake somewhere with no phone or Internet service.
ONR FAN,
Wow, I sure hope he is merely out of range. The alternative would really hit home here even more than it already has. Dave's a good guy, despite his differences with the forum. I'll keep him and his kin in mind. Please let us know if you hear from him.
As for the clueless, clumsy Americans, apologizing for their boorish behavior seem inadequate under the circumstances.
mlehmanclumsy Americans
Russell
ONR FAN My friend, ex forum member TA462 was visiting some of his wife's relatives that live in the town of Lac Megantic when the accident happened. They were suppose to visit for a few days and then head east to PEI. I've sent a couple text messages but I haven't received any responses yet. Its very strange because anyone that knows Dave knows that his life revolves around his Blackberry. He wouldn't just turn it off. I hope they are OK and just relaxing on a lake somewhere with no phone or Internet service.
Fingers are crossed here. Keep us in the loop.
mlehmanI presume that a set brake would still indicate it was applied, while the lack of application would be similarly obvious. Anyone know?
It goes without saying that this will be looked into, however GRAVITY is all that holds railway trucks to the rail cars. When they over turn the trucks will travel in a different direction from the car and this would destroy the chain that pulls the brakes in on the wheels.
An examination of the remains may show that the chain was pulled in a the palls were set, but the absence of finding this does not prove that they were not set, nor does finding a chain pulled and locked prove that it was actually pulled tight enough to hold the brakes tight.
Of the cars that remained upright we would expect to find enough cars with the brakes set. However the best evidence of properly tightened brakes would be the wear and burning on the wheels against the rails and against the brake pads. The absence of such damage to the wheel sets would be devastating.
BroadwayLion It goes without saying that this will be looked into, however GRAVITY is all that holds railway trucks to the rail cars. When they over turn the trucks will travel in a different direction from the car and this would destroy the chain that pulls the brakes in on the wheels. An examination of the remains may show that the chain was pulled in a the palls were set, but the absence of finding this does not prove that they were not set, nor does finding a chain pulled and locked prove that it was actually pulled tight enough to hold the brakes tight. Of the cars that remained upright we would expect to find enough cars with the brakes set. However the best evidence of properly tightened brakes would be the wear and burning on the wheels against the rails and against the brake pads. The absence of such damage to the wheel sets would be devastating.
Actually its relatively easy to figure out which cars had handbrakes set. If you go to the Canadian TSB website they have some detail pictures of the accident site. Cars that had the handbrakes set will have the chain wound up tight into the handbrake apparatus and the chain out of the bottom tight. Whether the car is on its trucks or upside down. So they can easily tell if the handbrakes were set.
On many US roads the handbrakes are required to be tested by releasing the air brakes after the handbrakes are set to make sure the train or cut holds on the grade. Several US roads also require approximately 50-75% more handbrakes to be set than the MMA required for a similar train on a similar grade.
There are dozens of details that have to be determined by the TSB to find the cause.
I hope the friends of those on the list turn up OK.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
Dave,
Thanks, I suspected that was the case, all things being equal. That would explain the change in how Mr. Burkhardt is describing the situation they found after his first statements were made.
Rather amazing the locos led this train down the hill and stayed on the tracks. I think I heard it was either 10 or 15 mph track speed limit and they estimated it reached speeds of 60 mph before the accident occurred.
csxns mlehmanclumsy AmericansWhat is with this?
Just to clarify, I wasn't referring to physical clumsiness, but to cultural clumsiness. It's Quebec, they speak French there. Why a smart guy like Burkhardt would show up and not be able to communicate for lack of a translator suggests insensitivity, at best, in a moment like this. Surely there's someone bi-lingual among the MM&A staff -- or it's no small wonder they are having miscommunication issues with the local fire department.
mlehman csxns mlehmanclumsy AmericansWhat is with this? Just to clarify, I wasn't referring to physical clumsiness, but to cultural clumsiness. It's Quebec, they speak French there. Why a smart guy like Burkhardt would show up and not be able to communicate for lack of a translator suggests insensitivity, at best, in a moment like this. Surely there's someone bi-lingual among the MM&A staff -- or it's no small wonder they are having miscommunication issues with the local fire department.
Also, several American MM&A employees refereed to Quebec residents as "------- frogs." Right now I am very embarrassed to be an American.
@ORN FAN
Geez I hope he is OK. As of two days ago, no official list of missing people had been released.
I really hope that he wasn't in Lac Megantic when the accident happened. We will all keep Dave and his family in our prayers.
Phoebe VetI am not an auditor, but I spent many years as an investigator, a trainer, and a supervisor. People frequently fail to do things they were trained and/or ordered to do. Sometimes it is intentional, sometimes it is just an innocent error.
Then their training needs to consist of repeatedly hammering into their skulls the fact that if they fail to do "X", then people can die, until it becomes second nature to them to do "X". Simply giving someone a checklist (Do X, then do Y, and then finally do Z) is fine for flipping burgers, not for being in control of a train.
Steve S
Schuylkill and Susquehanna Right now I am very embarrassed to be an American.
Don't be. There is not a place on the planet that doesn't have people of questionable character. I have been a lot of places in the world and we are all more alike than most people think. Good and bad.
Steven S Phoebe VetI am not an auditor, but I spent many years as an investigator, a trainer, and a supervisor. People frequently fail to do things they were trained and/or ordered to do. Sometimes it is intentional, sometimes it is just an innocent error. Then their training needs to consist of repeatedly hammering into their skulls the fact that if they fail to do "X", then people can die, until it becomes second nature to them to do "X". Simply giving someone a checklist (Do X, then do Y, and then finally do Z) is fine for flipping burgers, not for being in control of a train. Steve S
Let me know when you figure out a way to do that.
Do YOU ever do something you know is wrong? Maybe driving "just a little" over the speed limit, or driven home after "just a couple" of drinks? Do you wear your seat belt EVERY time you move the car? Do you ever say "That's close enough" when performing a task?
People take short cuts. It's human nature. When you get caught or an accident results you pay the price.
It might be worth repeating that they are still looking through all the wreckage, including nearby buildings that were leveled, and that means still finding bodies. Some will possibly never be recovered, and that means identification will be impossible. Meantime, back at the TSB investigating team, they are still working through their protocols. The word is that it will likely take months. Then comes the analysis, and later will come the report. Possibly, only possibly, there will be subsequent changes to current regulations, but I'm not the betting type, and you'll see no money on the table from my pocket on that one. I'd advise all of you to keep breathing in the meantime.
Latest is 28 confirmed dead.
It may end up declared the worst rail disaster in Canadian history. That, and all else is pure speculation at this point. There isn't even a word on the whereabouts of the engineer Harding.
Crandell
1) I don't drink.
2) Yes, I always put on my seat belt. In fact it has become second nature to me. I don't even have to consciously think about it. It's automatic.
3) There aren't many (if any) tasks that I do that could result in the deaths of dozens of people and the destruction of half a town.
Oh, crap. What was Dave's last name? This is a list of victims released by the CBC today, and there's a David on it...
http://www.cbc.ca/news/interactives/lac-megantic-faces/
Please God, let me be wrong... I miss TA462...
Streamlined steam, oh, what a dream!!
OMG! Could TA462 really be David Martin, one of the victim's?
Its already a very tragic story, and to have a forum member would be unbelievable.
Michael
CEO- Mile-HI-RailroadPrototype: D&RGW Moffat Line 1989