mlehman Reuters is reporting that the runaway was caused by "insufficient braking force." The TSB "would ask the federal government to review its regulations to ensure that trains carrying dangerous goods are not left unattended on the track." That sounds very much like what I think is needed. Obviously, the RRs will have input, but I think the facts speak for themselves as to the consequences of failing to mitigate this now obviously recognized risk.
Reuters is reporting that the runaway was caused by "insufficient braking force." The TSB "would ask the federal government to review its regulations to ensure that trains carrying dangerous goods are not left unattended on the track."
That sounds very much like what I think is needed. Obviously, the RRs will have input, but I think the facts speak for themselves as to the consequences of failing to mitigate this now obviously recognized risk.
Here is a link to the CBC News report: http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/story/2013/07/19/lac-megantic-train-derailment-victims-tsb.html
The TSB is asking Transport Canada to review its policies on both securing trains and for trains left unattended. Apparently this is not the first instance in Canada in recent years of unattended trains running down grades; and not the first time the TSB has been concerned enough to ask TC for reviews.
Paul, the above article has information on Rule 112-Securing Equipment from the Canadian Railway Operating Rules that you may find illuminating.
Paul,
Those are good points. I know there's a tendency to want to place blame on specific individuals. Railroads are complex interactions between lots of humans and machines. I know that from helping manage heavy-duty trucks, where the maintenance records can play a big role in determining causation in some cases. The driver may have been with the truck when something happened, but it could be the fault of the last guy to work on it, too.
With multiple cars involved in this accident, there could be a number of "last guys" nervous about what the investigation reveals.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
I had a long chat with a qualified freight engineer I know last night about this tragedy. His reasoning is:
So how did the air brakes get released? They were obviously applied at the time the engineer left the train, and there's no way they were there long enough to completely exhaust themselves. The only logical way the brakes could have been released is if someone went into the cab and moved the big red lever of the train brake to "Release". Because there was a loco fire and therefore unqualified (by RR standards) people on and around the loco, isn't it logical to assume that one of them moved the red lever on purpose or by accident as they were attempting to shut the engine down?This is not to excuse the MMA engineer completely. My friend was unfamiliar with the RR rules in Canada, but said on CSX (whom he doesn't work for) engineers are supposed to test the handbrakes by shoving with the engines before leaving the train. If they have a similar rule in Canada, the engineer is still in a world of trouble. But it appears to my friend that the MMA engineer shouldn't be the only one in trouble.
Paul A. Cutler III
Back on topic.
Here is a link to the Canadian Transportation Safety Board investigation page:
http://www.bst-tsb.gc.ca/eng/enquetes-investigations/rail/2013/R13D0054/R13D0054.asp
And here is a link to the CBC's latest update, showing that 5 more victims have been identified:
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/story/2013/07/17/quebec-lac-megantic-transportation-minister-raitt-mayors-train-mma.html
All right, We know he's OK. Let's get the thread back on topic now.
Dr. Frankendiesel aka Scott Running BearSpace Mouse for president!15 year veteran fire fighterCollector of Apple //e'sRunning Bear EnterprisesHistory Channel Club life member.beatus homo qui invenit sapientiam
MotleyI have to agree
The way to get this thread locked really quickly is to slant the topic away from the train wreck and into a discussion over whether or not a post should be deleted.
My opinion is for all of us to be happy that TA462 is okay and let the rest go.
Steven Otte Motley OMG! Could TA462 really be David Martin, one of the victim's? TA462's last name is not Martin. Though we were forced to delete it, he did reply here saying he's OK. [post edited by author to remove user's real name]
Motley OMG! Could TA462 really be David Martin, one of the victim's?
OMG! Could TA462 really be David Martin, one of the victim's?
TA462's last name is not Martin.
Though we were forced to delete it, he did reply here saying he's OK.
[post edited by author to remove user's real name]
Thank you, Steve. It's a relief to hear he's OK. Best wishes, Dave!
Stu
Streamlined steam, oh, what a dream!!
I'm thankful TA462 is OK. Any bit of good news we can find in this disaster is a blessing.
Even if he is persona non grata, I am still relieved that he is OK. I hope his property loss was insured.
Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
--Steven Otte, Model Railroader senior associate editorsotte@kalmbach.com
Its already a very tragic story, and to have a forum member would be unbelievable.
Michael
CEO- Mile-HI-RailroadPrototype: D&RGW Moffat Line 1989
ONR FAN My friend, ex forum member TA462 was visiting some of his wife's relatives that live in the town of Lac Megantic when the accident happened. They were suppose to visit for a few days and then head east to PEI. I've sent a couple text messages but I haven't received any responses yet. Its very strange because anyone that knows Dave knows that his life revolves around his Blackberry. He wouldn't just turn it off. I hope they are OK and just relaxing on a lake somewhere with no phone or Internet service.
My friend, ex forum member TA462 was visiting some of his wife's relatives that live in the town of Lac Megantic when the accident happened. They were suppose to visit for a few days and then head east to PEI. I've sent a couple text messages but I haven't received any responses yet. Its very strange because anyone that knows Dave knows that his life revolves around his Blackberry. He wouldn't just turn it off. I hope they are OK and just relaxing on a lake somewhere with no phone or Internet service.
Oh, crap. What was Dave's last name? This is a list of victims released by the CBC today, and there's a David on it...
http://www.cbc.ca/news/interactives/lac-megantic-faces/
Please God, let me be wrong... I miss TA462...
1) I don't drink.
2) Yes, I always put on my seat belt. In fact it has become second nature to me. I don't even have to consciously think about it. It's automatic.
3) There aren't many (if any) tasks that I do that could result in the deaths of dozens of people and the destruction of half a town.
Steve S
It might be worth repeating that they are still looking through all the wreckage, including nearby buildings that were leveled, and that means still finding bodies. Some will possibly never be recovered, and that means identification will be impossible. Meantime, back at the TSB investigating team, they are still working through their protocols. The word is that it will likely take months. Then comes the analysis, and later will come the report. Possibly, only possibly, there will be subsequent changes to current regulations, but I'm not the betting type, and you'll see no money on the table from my pocket on that one. I'd advise all of you to keep breathing in the meantime.
Latest is 28 confirmed dead.
It may end up declared the worst rail disaster in Canadian history. That, and all else is pure speculation at this point. There isn't even a word on the whereabouts of the engineer Harding.
Crandell
Steven S Phoebe VetI am not an auditor, but I spent many years as an investigator, a trainer, and a supervisor. People frequently fail to do things they were trained and/or ordered to do. Sometimes it is intentional, sometimes it is just an innocent error. Then their training needs to consist of repeatedly hammering into their skulls the fact that if they fail to do "X", then people can die, until it becomes second nature to them to do "X". Simply giving someone a checklist (Do X, then do Y, and then finally do Z) is fine for flipping burgers, not for being in control of a train. Steve S
Phoebe VetI am not an auditor, but I spent many years as an investigator, a trainer, and a supervisor. People frequently fail to do things they were trained and/or ordered to do. Sometimes it is intentional, sometimes it is just an innocent error.
Then their training needs to consist of repeatedly hammering into their skulls the fact that if they fail to do "X", then people can die, until it becomes second nature to them to do "X". Simply giving someone a checklist (Do X, then do Y, and then finally do Z) is fine for flipping burgers, not for being in control of a train.
Let me know when you figure out a way to do that.
Do YOU ever do something you know is wrong? Maybe driving "just a little" over the speed limit, or driven home after "just a couple" of drinks? Do you wear your seat belt EVERY time you move the car? Do you ever say "That's close enough" when performing a task?
People take short cuts. It's human nature. When you get caught or an accident results you pay the price.
Schuylkill and Susquehanna Right now I am very embarrassed to be an American.
Don't be. There is not a place on the planet that doesn't have people of questionable character. I have been a lot of places in the world and we are all more alike than most people think. Good and bad.
Brent
"All of the world's problems are the result of the difference between how we think and how the world works."
@ORN FAN
Geez I hope he is OK. As of two days ago, no official list of missing people had been released.
I really hope that he wasn't in Lac Megantic when the accident happened. We will all keep Dave and his family in our prayers.
S&S
Modeling the Pennsy and loving it!
mlehman csxns mlehmanclumsy AmericansWhat is with this? Just to clarify, I wasn't referring to physical clumsiness, but to cultural clumsiness. It's Quebec, they speak French there. Why a smart guy like Burkhardt would show up and not be able to communicate for lack of a translator suggests insensitivity, at best, in a moment like this. Surely there's someone bi-lingual among the MM&A staff -- or it's no small wonder they are having miscommunication issues with the local fire department.
csxns mlehmanclumsy AmericansWhat is with this?
mlehmanclumsy Americans
Just to clarify, I wasn't referring to physical clumsiness, but to cultural clumsiness. It's Quebec, they speak French there. Why a smart guy like Burkhardt would show up and not be able to communicate for lack of a translator suggests insensitivity, at best, in a moment like this. Surely there's someone bi-lingual among the MM&A staff -- or it's no small wonder they are having miscommunication issues with the local fire department.
Also, several American MM&A employees refereed to Quebec residents as "------- frogs." Right now I am very embarrassed to be an American.
Dave,
Thanks, I suspected that was the case, all things being equal. That would explain the change in how Mr. Burkhardt is describing the situation they found after his first statements were made.
Rather amazing the locos led this train down the hill and stayed on the tracks. I think I heard it was either 10 or 15 mph track speed limit and they estimated it reached speeds of 60 mph before the accident occurred.
BroadwayLion It goes without saying that this will be looked into, however GRAVITY is all that holds railway trucks to the rail cars. When they over turn the trucks will travel in a different direction from the car and this would destroy the chain that pulls the brakes in on the wheels. An examination of the remains may show that the chain was pulled in a the palls were set, but the absence of finding this does not prove that they were not set, nor does finding a chain pulled and locked prove that it was actually pulled tight enough to hold the brakes tight. Of the cars that remained upright we would expect to find enough cars with the brakes set. However the best evidence of properly tightened brakes would be the wear and burning on the wheels against the rails and against the brake pads. The absence of such damage to the wheel sets would be devastating.
It goes without saying that this will be looked into, however GRAVITY is all that holds railway trucks to the rail cars. When they over turn the trucks will travel in a different direction from the car and this would destroy the chain that pulls the brakes in on the wheels.
An examination of the remains may show that the chain was pulled in a the palls were set, but the absence of finding this does not prove that they were not set, nor does finding a chain pulled and locked prove that it was actually pulled tight enough to hold the brakes tight.
Of the cars that remained upright we would expect to find enough cars with the brakes set. However the best evidence of properly tightened brakes would be the wear and burning on the wheels against the rails and against the brake pads. The absence of such damage to the wheel sets would be devastating.
Actually its relatively easy to figure out which cars had handbrakes set. If you go to the Canadian TSB website they have some detail pictures of the accident site. Cars that had the handbrakes set will have the chain wound up tight into the handbrake apparatus and the chain out of the bottom tight. Whether the car is on its trucks or upside down. So they can easily tell if the handbrakes were set.
On many US roads the handbrakes are required to be tested by releasing the air brakes after the handbrakes are set to make sure the train or cut holds on the grade. Several US roads also require approximately 50-75% more handbrakes to be set than the MMA required for a similar train on a similar grade.
There are dozens of details that have to be determined by the TSB to find the cause.
I hope the friends of those on the list turn up OK.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
mlehmanI presume that a set brake would still indicate it was applied, while the lack of application would be similarly obvious. Anyone know?
ROAR
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
Fingers are crossed here. Keep us in the loop.
Russell
ONR FANMy friend, ex forum member TA462 was visiting some of his wife's relatives that live in the town of Lac Megantic when the accident happened. They were suppose to visit for a few days and then head east to PEI. I've sent a couple text messages but I haven't received any responses yet. Its very strange because anyone that knows Dave knows that his life revolves around his Blackberry. He wouldn't just turn it off. I hope they are OK and just relaxing on a lake somewhere with no phone or Internet service.
ONR FAN,
Wow, I sure hope he is merely out of range. The alternative would really hit home here even more than it already has. Dave's a good guy, despite his differences with the forum. I'll keep him and his kin in mind. Please let us know if you hear from him.
As for the clueless, clumsy Americans, apologizing for their boorish behavior seem inadequate under the circumstances.
I've got some updates on MMA from huffingtonpost.com and huffingtonpost.ca.
The engineer who was responsible for the train that derailed was involved in another incident not quite a year ago. On August 3, 2012, engineer Tom Harding operated a train that derailed in a Canadian National yard in Ste-Hyacinthe, Quebec. The CN spokesman wanted to make it very clear that Mr. Harding was a MMA employee at the time. http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2013/07/11/tom-harding-lac-megantic-explosion_n_3581552.html?utm_hp_ref=canada-business
20 people are now confirmed dead, and MMA and Rail World Inc. CEO Mr. Burkhardt said that "We think he applied some hand brakes, but the question is, did he apply enough of them? ... He said he applied 11 hand brakes. We think that's not true. Initially we believed him, but now we don't."
The article then takes a darker turn, where several MMA employees refer to several Quebec residents as a "------- frog" Here are some quotes from the article:
"In a sign of the tensions present, the Montreal Gazette reported Wednesday that an MMA employee from Illinois called a local resident a “------- frog” during a dispute over the taking of pictures. Gazette photographer John Kenney was taking pictures of parked MMA rail cars near Lac-Megantic Tuesday when an MMA employee, identifying himself only as an investigator from Illinois, “approached [Kenney] and screamed at him menacingly,” the newspaper reported."
"When a local resident, Alex Larabee, intervened in the dispute, he reportedly got an earful of abuse. “I asked him if [the rail cars] were leaking. I asked in French and he started swearing at me in English, calling me a ------- frog and all that,” Larabée said, as quoted at the Gazette. “It really shows their flagrant lack of respect for us (residents),” Larabee said."
"Quebec Premier Pauline Marois toured the devastated town Thursday, taking another opportunity to criticize MMA for its response to the crisis. Marois had earlier faulted Burkhardt for what she said was a slow response, and called the company's chief behaviour "deplorable'' and "unacceptable.'' She renewed some of the criticism Thursday."
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/07/10/quebec-train-crash-brakes_n_3574564.html Link is R rated for language.
Another article said that engineer was torn up about the wreck. "An employee at the inn where Harding slept one or two nights per week says she specifically remembers the horrified expression on his face when he scrambled outside following a massive blast and saw the inferno engulfing the town." "Catherine Pomerleau-Pelletier doesn't remember hearing him utter a word amid the chaos, but she thinks she was looking into his eyes the instant he realized his unmanned, crude-oil-filled train had just slammed into the downtown core."
" "I saw him arrive, I looked at him and I didn't say a word or anything because he looked very, very, very shaken up," said Pomerleau-Pelletier, a barmaid and receptionist at the century-old l'Eau Berge inn.
"He didn't do anything, but his face was pretty descriptive."
"It said everything." "
In addition the article added this bit of information from Mr. Harding's taxi driver that night. I find it rather interesting:
"The taxi driver met Harding on Friday night at the spot where he parked the train before it roared into town. He said his regular customer seemed fine, with nothing out of the ordinary. However, Andre Turcotte did say that the idling train appeared to be belching out more smoke than usual, so much so that he recalled that oil droplets from the locomotive exhaust landed on his car. He said he asked Harding twice whether the puffs of smoke were particularly hazardous for the environment. Turcotte said his client calmly responded that he had followed company directives to deal with the issue. A short time after they left, the locomotive caught fire, a blaze that was extinguished by the local fire department."
http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2013/07/11/colette-roy-laroche-lac-megantic-mayor_n_3581615.html