OK, the OP's question was answered and the rest of this is looking like stuff I don't want to know the answer to. Time to move on.
Dr. Frankendiesel aka Scott Running BearSpace Mouse for president!15 year veteran fire fighterCollector of Apple //e'sRunning Bear EnterprisesHistory Channel Club life member.beatus homo qui invenit sapientiam
alco_fan How is xenophobia on-topic in a model train forum?
How is xenophobia on-topic in a model train forum?
Once again I have resisted commenting on this type of discussion.
But I have the perfect answer to this problem. And yes it is based on my previous experience managing a train department in a hobby shop, running my own MATCO tool business, working other retail settings, being self employed most of my life, and my knowledge of the economics of manufacturing and retail.
All we have to do is start paying retail price for our model trains. Then the hobby shops will reopen, the mail order outlets will offer free shipping, they all will have plenty of product on the shelves and we will have model train heaven on earth.
Why? Because then there will be enough profit to find investors willing to put up enough money to make enough of this stuff, stock inventory for future sale, and not worry about selling it all in the next two weeks as per the current "preorder", limited production, 30% off list price business model.
There you go - problem solved.
Sheldon
PS - Once again, for the benefit of those who have only been at this hobby a decade or two, 40 years ago there was virtually no discounting in this industry. ALL those Mon and Pop hobby shops you all lament about loosing, all charged full retail prices back in the 40's, 50's, 60's and even into the 70's.
But what would I know, my Uncle owned one and I worked in two others?
And it was likely economists that urged all these companies (like Atlas) to get into China in the first place!
Carl
"I could never belong to any club that would have me as a member."
b60bpOh yeah, that's something to aspire to. They may be, someday, as accurate as weather forcasters. Ever notice how every month's economic indictors, be it rate of growth, inflation, unemployment figures, investment returns are always greeted with the same terms? "unexpected" ....."surprising"....."unanticipated", etc.
And the NEVER tell you what the REVISED figures are.
LION took all of his money out of the market and put it in Jelly Beans.
ROAR
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
[.
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NittanyLion I hope none of you people are economists.
I hope none of you people are economists.
You want six or seven answers? Ask four or five economists.
Benny
b60bpWhere is Model Power track made, anyway?
It used to be made in eastern Europe, I believe that it is now made in China. I'll have to look at a piece to be sure. So if Model Power can sell Chinese track for $3.00 a stick and Atlas can sell it for almost $6.00 a stick it seems that the ragged ekomonists above have gotten it exactly right. (GASH I hate to say that!)
richhotrain AVRNUT The only real reason that so much of this stuff is produced in China now is not to keep retail prices low, but to keep profit margins high. Just look at the prices on some of these things.......hundreds of dollars for a locomotive, produced in a country where workers are paid pocket change per hour. Thus, the profit margins on these things are surely several hundred percent, even after factoring in shipping costs. I will never be convinced that the same items could not be produced here & retailed for the same prices. The only difference would be a 50% or 100% profit margin instead of a 300%-400% profit margin. As China's industrial base expands, the workers there are starting to demand better more livable wages & they're starting to get them too. Costs of overseas shipping are constantly increasing too. It's inevitable that sooner or later the costs of producing this stuff in China will reach a point that it is no more profitable than producing the stuff here. Might just as well bring the production back home now, be done with it & have the items readily available. Even if they are at a slighly higher cost, at least you would be able to get them when you need them. These ongoing shortages, production issues & profiteering are not doing the hobby any good and are only driving up prices anyway. Carl All arguments to the contrary aside, I entirely agree with you, Carl. The notion of producing goods in China to lower the cost is a myth. Rich
AVRNUT The only real reason that so much of this stuff is produced in China now is not to keep retail prices low, but to keep profit margins high. Just look at the prices on some of these things.......hundreds of dollars for a locomotive, produced in a country where workers are paid pocket change per hour. Thus, the profit margins on these things are surely several hundred percent, even after factoring in shipping costs. I will never be convinced that the same items could not be produced here & retailed for the same prices. The only difference would be a 50% or 100% profit margin instead of a 300%-400% profit margin. As China's industrial base expands, the workers there are starting to demand better more livable wages & they're starting to get them too. Costs of overseas shipping are constantly increasing too. It's inevitable that sooner or later the costs of producing this stuff in China will reach a point that it is no more profitable than producing the stuff here. Might just as well bring the production back home now, be done with it & have the items readily available. Even if they are at a slighly higher cost, at least you would be able to get them when you need them. These ongoing shortages, production issues & profiteering are not doing the hobby any good and are only driving up prices anyway. Carl
The only real reason that so much of this stuff is produced in China now is not to keep retail prices low, but to keep profit margins high. Just look at the prices on some of these things.......hundreds of dollars for a locomotive, produced in a country where workers are paid pocket change per hour. Thus, the profit margins on these things are surely several hundred percent, even after factoring in shipping costs. I will never be convinced that the same items could not be produced here & retailed for the same prices. The only difference would be a 50% or 100% profit margin instead of a 300%-400% profit margin.
As China's industrial base expands, the workers there are starting to demand better more livable wages & they're starting to get them too. Costs of overseas shipping are constantly increasing too. It's inevitable that sooner or later the costs of producing this stuff in China will reach a point that it is no more profitable than producing the stuff here. Might just as well bring the production back home now, be done with it & have the items readily available. Even if they are at a slighly higher cost, at least you would be able to get them when you need them. These ongoing shortages, production issues & profiteering are not doing the hobby any good and are only driving up prices anyway.
All arguments to the contrary aside, I entirely agree with you, Carl.
The notion of producing goods in China to lower the cost is a myth.
Rich
Right on! The notion that Atlas track became cheaper when it's production was shifted to Red China is utter nonsense. If it did become less expensive, the consumer would never know it. I've been in this hobby a long, long time, and it hasn't been that long since Atlas sent everything over to the commisars. I was just glancing at an MR issue from early 2005. One of the discount mail order houses, Standard Hobby Supply, wanted $7.19 for an Atlas #282 turnout. Allowing for inflation, using the government calculator, that turnout should cost $8.58 today, providing it was still made in the USA. T&K Hobby, a deep discounter, lists the Red Chinese version at $14.36.
A few other examples, all Atlas. Switch machine $4.99, inflated should be $5.99, costs $8.36, another Red Chinese bargain. Code 100 flex cost $2.19, should be $2.61, costs $22.79 per five or $4.56 a section. Ya just can't beat these prices can ya? Nothing like made in China to bring costs down. I was reading where a book costs $.59 to print in China, and $.61 in the US. Allowing for freight, customs, etc, another rip off to the US consumer.
I prefer not buying from history's most murdering government anyway, but paying a premium to do so is even worse. Another good reason to buy Micro Engineering track. There's an outfit in Montana who makes really nice flex track, the same outfit who makes narrow gauge kits and lots of parts, Precision Scale, I believe. There track was only about $28 for six, suggested retail, so discounters should be able to sell it for around $22 per six. Peco is most excellent as well, and Walthers can fill in the exotic needs. If I'm going to buy an import I'd rather buy from a friend then an enemy, so Peco and Shinohara would be my choices. Where is Model Power track made, anyway?
Regards,
Benny Peters
Atlas made a business decision to make track off-shore. They have been doing that for a long time.
The real news is that Atlas is not the only name in track. There are other players too. Micro Engineering, Peco, Rapido Trains has an upcoming product, and others. Or handlay your track.
And to all those who think Ford paid $5 a day, well, he did, but few people qualified for that. That was Ford's social engineering experiments at their best. Sounded good in the press, but no one really looked past the headlines. The real Henry Ford is not what you know.
Connecticut Valley Railroad A Branch of the New York, New Haven, and Hartford
"If you think you can do a thing or think you can't do a thing, you're right." -- Henry Ford
trwrouteGee whiz...just use Micro-Engineering stuff. It's made in Missouri and is readily available. My layout is completely done with ME code 70.
I agree Chuck. If buying American made is important to you, buy the products that are made in the USA. That's Micro Engineering and Central Valley for your flex track and turnouts.
Chris
wcu boy I am the "old son of a guy" who started this thread. I did not realize that I would cause such a 'flurry" of comments. But, they have been great responses. Thank you all!! I am looking for atlas flex track and any Atlas code 100 turnouts that might be available. One gentleman in this thread gave me an internet source for my needs. I will follow-up on his and others' suggestions of internet suppliers. It is disappointing to me:however, that I have been a loyalist in support of my local hobby store for so many years where I usually give my business to assist in its longevity as a business. Unfortunately, things have changed so radically that I cannot find what I need anymore in my local hobby store and I have to go to internet sources. I know that this is our present situation, but I am wondering how much longer our hobby can survive when one has to run to the internet for everything when we can have the local salesman at the hobby store be our ally when we need something quickly. It is a sad day when we discount the personal touch of a human being in lieu of a mechanical entity such as a computer to meet our hobbying concerns and needs. THAT"S MY TWO SENSE??
I am the "old son of a guy" who started this thread. I did not realize that I would cause such a 'flurry" of comments. But, they have been great responses. Thank you all!! I am looking for atlas flex track and any Atlas code 100 turnouts that might be available. One gentleman in this thread gave me an internet source for my needs. I will follow-up on his and others' suggestions of internet suppliers.
It is disappointing to me:however, that I have been a loyalist in support of my local hobby store for so many years where I usually give my business to assist in its longevity as a business. Unfortunately, things have changed so radically that I cannot find what I need anymore in my local hobby store and I have to go to internet sources. I know that this is our present situation, but I am wondering how much longer our hobby can survive when one has to run to the internet for everything when we can have the local salesman at the hobby store be our ally when we need something quickly. It is a sad day when we discount the personal touch of a human being in lieu of a mechanical entity such as a computer to meet our hobbying concerns and needs. THAT"S MY TWO SENSE??
wcu boy I know that this is our present situation, but I am wondering how much longer our hobby can survive when one has to run to the internet for everything when we can have the local salesman at the hobby store be our ally when we need something quickly. It is a sad day when we discount the personal touch of a human being in lieu of a mechanical entity such as a computer to meet our hobbying concerns and needs.
I agree..Computer shopping takes the human side out of shopping but,its future.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
IRONROOSTERWe're all just pooling our ignorance here
For the win.
And I will also note that some have an unending stream of ignorance to ... er ... _place_ into the pool
At the risk of making this thread on topic: To the original poster so what parts do you need?
The economic "experts" can yammer away, but it is likely that you can solve your problem with products that are available now, either from the atlas flex that is already in stock or alternatives from Peco, Walthers, ME,, etc. Or if you only need a couple of pieces, they can be found on eBay. What do you need?
rrebell Soo Line fan Some companies are already moving production to India and Mexico. Even though I am well versed in economics, I never unberstood why Mexico is not utilized more as there is still cheap lanor there and it is close so transport cost would be less?
Soo Line fan Some companies are already moving production to India and Mexico.
Some companies are already moving production to India and Mexico.
They're already at capacity and too expensive. We've been using Mexican labor since the 60s.
rrebellI never unberstood why Mexico is not utilized more as there is still cheap lanor there and it is close so transport cost would be less?
Mexican labor may be cheap, but nowhere near as cheap as China was or other places still are around on the other side of the world.
There is also a political dimension to this. What were they doing during WW-II? In those days we had friends and we had enemies. The countries that we conquered (Germany and Japan) we helped to rebuild, we made them into friends, and so our eyes were looking across the oceans. We did much trade with both Germany and Japan in the 50s and 60s. One of our allies became an enemy, and hid all of eastern Europe and Asia under curtains of iron and bamboo. We went into Vietnam to protect the world from Communism, for all the good that expenditure of life and treasure bought us. But in helping to resolve that debacle, Nixon for better or worse went to China and opened that door. The Chinese Camel (Dragon?) stuck its nose in the door of the tent, and liked what it found there.
Mexico, on the other hand, was not on our radar at all, nor was most of South America. We should be as close to Mexico as we are to Canada, but then, I know where Canada was during WW-II.
Just to add some fuel to the economic fire, but a news program last night pointed out which continent has low operating costs, a largely underutilized population under 30 that are just hanker for jobs in the next decade;
Africa,
While there are some serious trouble spots, most nations there are stable, and the Chinese are investing like crazy over there to get their companies into the various national economies, probably with an eye to shifting alot of factory production there in the next 10-20 years, not for their domestic consumption, they have more than enough capacity for that inside their borders, but to continue to be a production source for low cost over-seas exports...IOWs the USA and its Wallmart consumer buying mentality.
Have fun with your trains
Jim
The good Lion made excellent points..
Tool/die makes have been replaced with computers. Assemblers will still be required for final assembly-or sell the models as kits with several employees packing the kits..
Of course for the RTR models there will be a learning time which means mistakes will be made.
It can be done.
richhotrain Now that the U.S. is part of the global economy, it is about to benefit from the cyclicality that used to be reserved to the regional aspect of the U.S. economy. As soon as production returns to the U.S., you will see the domestic economy thrive once again and prices will fall as a result.
Now that the U.S. is part of the global economy, it is about to benefit from the cyclicality that used to be reserved to the regional aspect of the U.S. economy.
As soon as production returns to the U.S., you will see the domestic economy thrive once again and prices will fall as a result.
Is old news. LION had discussed this in a term paper in the mid 1970s. As each new place takes the place of another for "cheap labor" each place sees an increase in the standard of living until the whole world is on a par with the use. Not, maybe in number of dollars earned, but the majority of such workers will have decent housing, decent food, decent clothing, electricity and most of all HOPE.
As this happens, manufacture will spread to every corner of the world, and it will also revive in the USA. Then *we* will be the ones with the latest factories and methods. BUT these manufactures will be mostly automated, and will not be the labor intensive tasks of yore. They will indeed hire workers, but you ought to have some degree of higher education behind you for this kind of work.
AVRNUT That's exactly my point! There will soon be little economic benefit to having your product made in a country that is thousands of miles away from the majority of your customers. Might just as well get out now & bring it back home, where you have more highly skilled workers, more productive workers & better control over production. Many U.S. companies are already doing so. Here's an article that Atlas should probably read: http://www.csmonitor.com/Business/new-economy/2012/0510/As-Chinese-wages-rise-US-manufacturers-head-back-home Carl
That's exactly my point! There will soon be little economic benefit to having your product made in a country that is thousands of miles away from the majority of your customers. Might just as well get out now & bring it back home, where you have more highly skilled workers, more productive workers & better control over production. Many U.S. companies are already doing so. Here's an article that Atlas should probably read:
http://www.csmonitor.com/Business/new-economy/2012/0510/As-Chinese-wages-rise-US-manufacturers-head-back-home
Great article!
Alton Junction
rrebell AVRNUT The only real reason that so much of this stuff is produced in China now is not to keep retail prices low, but to keep profit margins high. Just look at the prices on some of these things.......hundreds of dollars for a locomotive, produced in a country where workers are paid pocket change per hour. Thus, the profit margins on these things are surely several hundred percent, even after factoring in shipping costs. I will never be convinced that the same items could not be produced here & retailed for the same prices. The only difference would be a 50% or 100% profit margin instead of a 300%-400% profit margin. As China's industrial base expands, the workers there are starting to demand better more livable wages & they're starting to get them too. Costs of overseas shipping are constantly increasing too. It's inevitable that sooner or later the costs of producing this stuff in China will reach a point that it is no more profitable than producing the stuff here. Might just as well bring the production back home now, be done with it & have the items readily available. Even if they are at a slighly higher cost, at least you would be able to get them when you need them. These ongoing shortages, production issues & profiteering are not doing the hobby any good and are only driving up prices anyway. Carl The average person inChina gets a reasonable pay with the average in Gansu being $730 us a month, a 1 bedroom apt there can be $100 a month.
Nor do any of us run a small manufacturing business.
We're all just pooling our ignorance here.
Enjoy
Paul
SP&S modeler, 1960's give or take a decade or two for some equipment.
http://www.youtube.com/user/SGTDUPREY?feature=guide
Gary DuPrey
N scale model railroader