QUOTE: Originally posted by Bill Conner MTH makes the best trains in O gauge and they'll do the same in HO. DCS is by far the best system in O gauge. You HO guys will forget about Athearn Genesis once MTH puts their fine models on the market. Mike Wolf doesn't get enough credit for his revival of O gauge and he'll do the same for HO.
QUOTE: Originally posted by Joe Polska I don't know why MTH and Mike would want to bother with HO anyway.
QUOTE: There are too many importers in it already and the pie only has enough slices.
QUOTE: Besides, O gauge is a lot better and more fun and the people in it don't count rivets and nitpick as much. Give me 3 rail toy trains any day![C):-)]
"I like my Pullman Standards & Budds in Stainless Steel flavors, thank you!"
QUOTE: Originally posted by garyseven Andy Edleman You have shown grace under pressure. Thanks for posting.
QUOTE: Originally posted by Bill Conner Thanks to Andy Edleman for his professional and rational response to this issue. I'm also excited about DCS coming to HO. MTH is the leader in O gauge trains and will become the same in HO in a matter of time. HO really needs a shot in the arm and Mike Wolf is capable of doing it.
QUOTE: Originally posted by Allan Miller So, if I'm to understand the above comments correctly, HO is a head-in-the-sand segment in model railroading that does not need to grow and does not welcome new entrants and innovations. Kind of a strange approach to sharing and growing a hobby--any hobby--and certainly unlike anything I have seen in my years as an active participant in model railroading!
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
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Simon Modelling CB&Q and Wabash See my slowly evolving layout on my picturetrail site http://www.picturetrail.com/simontrains and our videos at http://www.youtube.com/user/MrCrispybake?feature=mhum
QUOTE: Originally posted by Allan Miller "I also fail to see a logical basis for bashing MTH simply because they have announced their intention to enter the HO segment of the hobby--
QUOTE: Originally posted by amedleman Paul3: 2. I am not familiar with the actual specifics of the speed control methods the other manufacturers utilize. If they aren't in violation then there is no problem. Their engineers need to determine those issues which is why they received notification in the first place.
QUOTE: 3. Please remember that you do not need a new control system (DCS) to operate an M.T.H. HO locomotive. Any exisiting DCC controller will work. If you have already invested in a DCC system it will run the M.T.H. engine in command mode. Below are the features you will have access to when using a DCC controller: - Operate Locomotive At Scale Speeds - Activate Whistle/Horn or Bell Sounds - Hear Squeaking Brakes - Enjoy Synchronized Puffing Smoke Timed To Driver Revolutions - Activate Passenger Station or Freight Yard Sound Effects - Activate Doppler Sound Effects - Control Smoke Operation - Control Locomotive Master Volume - Adjust The Locomotive Chuff Rate Next, are the features you will have access to when using a DCS system: - 22 Independent Volume Control Settings - 16 Adjustable Chuff Rate Settings - 3 Adjustable Smoke Intensity Settings - Adjustable Brake Sound Effects - Adjustable Wheel “Clickity-Clack” Sounds - 15 Selectable Custom Sounds - 4 Adjustable Diesel Engine Ditch Lighting Effects - 120 Adjustable Engine Speed Settings - 3 Adjustable Locomotive Direction Start-up Engines - Simple Lash-up Creation - Simple Route Creation - Simple Scene Creation - Record/Playback 90 Minutes of Operation - Downloadable Locomotive Sounds Sets - Independent Locomotive Chronometer - Independent Locomotive Odometer - Independent Locomotive Trip Odometer - Track Signal Quality Test - Linear Track Length Meter - Trip Odometer - 2 Independent Engine Reset Features - Doppler - Broadcast Your Voice Through The Train's Speaker - Independent Whistle & Bell Sounds - 120 Speed Steps – Control engines speed in increments of 1 smph. - 42 Levels of Programming Option - Labor/Drift Chuffing Sound Control - Diesel Rev Up/Down Sound Control - Speed Boost & Brake Control - One Touch Smoke On/Off Control - One Touch Volume Level Control - Engine Sounds Mute Button - One Touch Headlight On/Off Control - One Touch Proto-Cast™ Control - One Touch Engine Startup Control - One Touch Engine Shutdown Control - One Touch Passenger or Freight Sound Activation - Sound Packages Downloadable from MTH Website .
QUOTE: 3. The K-4 is just our first HO engine. We have made over 200 models in our Premier Line O Gauge product line having long ago recognized that O consumers have different tastes. We expect no different a reaction from HO consumers. If the K-4 isn't your bag, wait for the next engine. Incidentally, the K-4 is $50.00 less than the Broadway version and contains many more features as detailed in both the DCC and DCS lists above. You'll find even more details at www.mthhotrains.com
QUOTE: 4. Amperage draw is a big factor in O because most of the locomotives are produced from die-cast metal and are thus quite heavy. Our AC operated O Gauge Challenger engine outweighs our G gauge model by about five pounds even though the G model is 17 inches longer (engine and tender). It takes more power and amperage to get those O trains moving. Consequently, the electronics must be robust enough to handle the more intense power requirements. Our experience in testing DCC in an AC, hi-amp environment (a locomotive and string of seven passenger cars can easily draw 6 or more amps) was very underwhelming. More importantly, DCC is limited by the number of features it offers and the complexity of its operation. Since DCC had no presence in the O Gauge AC market, developing a newer system that was easier to use and had a lot more features would be far more appealing to new consumers. Our long-term goal is to expand the marketplace by attracting new consumers. If we were going to invest in a control system (DCC or otherwise) we needed to be very confident that the return on the investment to develop the control system would be worthwhile. If new consumers are attracted to the hobby, whether it be in O, G or HO because of DCS, then our return on investment will continue to be strong. The marketplace as a whole will also be greater if more consumers are attracted to it. We think DCS does that.
QUOTE: 5. Since none of the DCC manufacturers ever bothered to inquire what our licensing terms would be, they can't comment on whether they were favorable. As with any legal agreement, the terms would be confidential anyway. 6. Sorry for the confusion about the notification. As my original post indicated, the DCC community was notified about both our method of speed control (in one scale mile per hour increments) and our form of 2-way communication.
QUOTE: Originally posted by simon1966 Many of the threads on this and other forums concern the demise of the hobby shop, the lack of new people coming into the hobby, the ageing model RR population etc. etc. The industry has been concerned enough to introduce the "Greatest hobby" initiative. Even if you "hate" MTH, or have no interest in their products or DCS system, how can having a successful company spend millions on product development and then presumably a considerable ammount in marketing, be bad for the industry? If MTH is serious about targeting the general population to bring in new hobbiests then they will likely be marketing outside of the traditional model RR media. An advert in MRR mag will hardly access new modellers! Just supposing they have success at this, then many other companies would benefit as well. (Scenery makers etc). So while I am happy with DCC and have no intention to switch to DCS, I wish MTH success in attracting new folks to this hobby. One thing I sincerely hope is that members of this list will treat modellers with courtesy and respect that come to this list as MTH users!
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Bill Carl (modeling Chessie and predecessors from 1973-1983) Member of Four County Society of Model Engineers NCE DCC Master Visit the FCSME at www.FCSME.org Modular railroading at its best! If it has an X in it, it sucks! And yes, I just had my modeler's license renewed last week!
QUOTE: Originally posted by JerryZeman Dear Mr. Edelman; Here are my rambling thoughts regarding your latest post. QUOTE: Originally posted by amedleman Paul3: 2. I am not familiar with the actual specifics of the speed control methods the other manufacturers utilize. If they aren't in violation then there is no problem. Their engineers need to determine those issues which is why they received notification in the first place. Here is the crux of the problem numerous people have with MTH regarding their stand with the DCC community. MTH issues a letter to the DCC community informing them of their patents. Now the DCC community has to invest the time and money determining if any future developments are afoul of MTH patents. Who gets to pay for the cost of doing all this research, notification etc to MTH? Yes, you guessed it, the consumer. The DCC community is a collection of rather small companies as compared to the size of MTH. I suspect that many of them lack the financial resources to comply with your wishes. They are not, after all, not Lionel. [;)] I would suspect that MTH is an approximately US$40-50 M / yr. business. Most of the DCC manufacturers would probably not make US$2M. QUOTE: 3. Please remember that you do not need a new control system (DCS) to operate an M.T.H. HO locomotive. Any exisiting DCC controller will work. If you have already invested in a DCC system it will run the M.T.H. engine in command mode. Below are the features you will have access to when using a DCC controller: - Operate Locomotive At Scale Speeds - Activate Whistle/Horn or Bell Sounds - Hear Squeaking Brakes - Enjoy Synchronized Puffing Smoke Timed To Driver Revolutions - Activate Passenger Station or Freight Yard Sound Effects - Activate Doppler Sound Effects - Control Smoke Operation - Control Locomotive Master Volume - Adjust The Locomotive Chuff Rate Next, are the features you will have access to when using a DCS system: - 22 Independent Volume Control Settings - 16 Adjustable Chuff Rate Settings - 3 Adjustable Smoke Intensity Settings - Adjustable Brake Sound Effects - Adjustable Wheel “Clickity-Clack” Sounds - 15 Selectable Custom Sounds - 4 Adjustable Diesel Engine Ditch Lighting Effects - 120 Adjustable Engine Speed Settings - 3 Adjustable Locomotive Direction Start-up Engines - Simple Lash-up Creation - Simple Route Creation - Simple Scene Creation - Record/Playback 90 Minutes of Operation - Downloadable Locomotive Sounds Sets - Independent Locomotive Chronometer - Independent Locomotive Odometer - Independent Locomotive Trip Odometer - Track Signal Quality Test - Linear Track Length Meter - Trip Odometer - 2 Independent Engine Reset Features - Doppler - Broadcast Your Voice Through The Train's Speaker - Independent Whistle & Bell Sounds - 120 Speed Steps – Control engines speed in increments of 1 smph. - 42 Levels of Programming Option - Labor/Drift Chuffing Sound Control - Diesel Rev Up/Down Sound Control - Speed Boost & Brake Control - One Touch Smoke On/Off Control - One Touch Volume Level Control - Engine Sounds Mute Button - One Touch Headlight On/Off Control - One Touch Proto-Cast™ Control - One Touch Engine Startup Control - One Touch Engine Shutdown Control - One Touch Passenger or Freight Sound Activation - Sound Packages Downloadable from MTH Website . As I stated in my earlier post, there are some awesome features of DCS relative to controlling sound. Personally, though, some of the features such as brake sound and crewtalk are just plain lame. As an individual that works in the railway supply industry, the unrealistic nature of this stuff makes me think "toy train". Several of the features in your list are already easily accomplished with DCC. Spend some time with NCE DCC and you will see what I am talking about. If you are ever in the Chicago area, I would be glad to give you a demonstration, and then maybe you would have a better perspective of the HO marketplace after seeing things from our perspective. QUOTE: 3. The K-4 is just our first HO engine. We have made over 200 models in our Premier Line O Gauge product line having long ago recognized that O consumers have different tastes. We expect no different a reaction from HO consumers. If the K-4 isn't your bag, wait for the next engine. Incidentally, the K-4 is $50.00 less than the Broadway version and contains many more features as detailed in both the DCC and DCS lists above. You'll find even more details at www.mthhotrains.com The language regarding Broadway's offering smacks of MTH looking for a way to "&$^# back" at BLI. I have two problems with what is stated above. For starters, if MTH and BLI need to snipe at each other through legal means, then, by all means, knock yourselves out. However, to drag BLI's name through the mud, and demonstrate a linkage between them and Korea Brass is ridiculous. You already won your US$40M judgement against Lionel (which I have no problem with). BLI has a loyal following in HO (and I am not one of them), and all you do is set yourself up for the same MTH vs. Lionel bashing that occurs in the three rail arena. Secondly, three rail manufacturers seem to think that everybody on the planet is a slobbering Pennsy freak. Couldn't you find something that would be popular that hasn't been done before in lower cost HO, like, say, a Great Northern O-8 mikado, or a CB&Q O-5 northern? Or, if you just have to set your sites east of Chicago, an L class NYC mikado? Unless hobby shops do an outstanding job of selling people new to HO on your current offering, along with a DCS unit to control it, there are going to be a whole host of shelf queens out there. QUOTE: 4. Amperage draw is a big factor in O because most of the locomotives are produced from die-cast metal and are thus quite heavy. Our AC operated O Gauge Challenger engine outweighs our G gauge model by about five pounds even though the G model is 17 inches longer (engine and tender). It takes more power and amperage to get those O trains moving. Consequently, the electronics must be robust enough to handle the more intense power requirements. Our experience in testing DCC in an AC, hi-amp environment (a locomotive and string of seven passenger cars can easily draw 6 or more amps) was very underwhelming. More importantly, DCC is limited by the number of features it offers and the complexity of its operation. Since DCC had no presence in the O Gauge AC market, developing a newer system that was easier to use and had a lot more features would be far more appealing to new consumers. Our long-term goal is to expand the marketplace by attracting new consumers. If we were going to invest in a control system (DCC or otherwise) we needed to be very confident that the return on the investment to develop the control system would be worthwhile. If new consumers are attracted to the hobby, whether it be in O, G or HO because of DCS, then our return on investment will continue to be strong. The marketplace as a whole will also be greater if more consumers are attracted to it. We think DCS does that. This has to be one of the biggest lines of balderda***hat I have run across from a manfuacturer in quite a while. 1. You state that DCC has no application in O gauge. You are incorrect. It has no application in three rail O gauge. It has been used extensively in O scale. Jim Scorce of NCE uses his system on his own O scale railroad. 2. Yes, amperage draw in three rail is a concern, and on the modular three rail group that I belong to, we regularily hit 9 amps with MTH and other locomotives, and lighted passenger cars. And we occasionally trip a Z4000s circuit breaker. DCC power supplies are available in 10 amp configuration. If MTH had any intention of using DCC at the onset, you gentlemen would have figured out a way to make your own 10 amp, or for that matter 15 amp power supply that could have been applied to two rail. The technology definitley allows for larger power supplies. 3. I guess that you figure that the majority of your sales are going to be from people new to the hobby. Hey, that is great if your technology can grow the market. And once that happens, then HO can benefit from the same internecine sniping that occurs in the three rail arena. Oh, I can't wait [:(]. 4. If you were to develop a control system to incorporate the features of DCS in DCC, the investment that would be required would be higher than you presently have using DCS, which you already invested in. However, now you are pushing a totally incompatible control system into the HO market, which is exactly what the DCC stamdards aimed to keep from happening . I've lived through the days of competing command control systems (Dynatrol, CTC-16, Keller, and when DCC came along it was like a breath of fresh air. Nothing did more to improve my enjoyment of the hobby more than the conversion from Dynatrol to DCC. QUOTE: 5. Since none of the DCC manufacturers ever bothered to inquire what our licensing terms would be, they can't comment on whether they were favorable. As with any legal agreement, the terms would be confidential anyway. 6. Sorry for the confusion about the notification. As my original post indicated, the DCC community was notified about both our method of speed control (in one scale mile per hour increments) and our form of 2-way communication. Yes, the DCC community received your notification, and has elected to ignore you. This is kinda like the kids in the schoolyard ignoring the bully that shows up. Since nothing out there in the DCC world current offered conflicts with MTH's beloved patents, they have no reason to talk to you. All you have accomplished is throwing future development of DCC, a common platform, into doubt. They have a potential legal hand grenade thrown into their midst , and either don't have the resources to fight it, or don't know the best way to respond to you. As a DCC user that has no involvement with the DCC SIG, I can't say for sure which it is. From the user perspective, all I can say is I am incensed that DCC development is being constrained by MTH's actions. You may be legally correct, but your public relations has taken one hellofa hit. My advice to you would be for MTH to contact the DCC SIG, and try to work through issues in a businesslike forum that works for the betterment of all concerned. Here is the link: http://jdb.psu.edu/nmra/dccsig.html I believe that MTH would maximize it's investment in your HO offerings by playing within the current structure as opposed to the current path down which you have embarked. I, for one, would be favorably disposed toware MTH product if this was to occur. If you choose to follow the current path, then no matter what your offerings, I will ignore any of your future offerings. Some on the posters on this forum, and on the O Gauge Railroading forum will lamblast my choice in this matter, but I personally feel that a line in the sand needs to be drawn regarding MTH's conduct on the issue of DCC standards. And your company is free to go down whichever path you choose. Best regards, Jerry J. Zeman, Jr.