M.T.H. Responds To DCC Lawsuit Allegations

[Anonymous]

me;
"I have been told by many in the DCC community that prior art exists for most/all of the items on your patents. Their current problem is cost of lawyers, etc."

TMCCexpert;
You need a lawyer to send a certified letter?

me again;
You need something other that just what Andy says! You need a public anouncement by MTH that if shown prior art they will renounce the patent, and then of course dealing with MTH you need this to be a public showing.

[Anonymous]

I don't know why MTH and Mike would want to bother with HO anyway. There are too many importers in it already and the pie only has enough slices. Besides, O gauge is a lot better and more fun and the people in it don't count rivets and nitpick as much. Give me 3 rail toy trains any day!

[C):-)]

[Anonymous]

andy did say he wanted qsi to drop their lawsuit which is about patent rights which mth used in their DCS system. That has to be the reason they need money form lionel to pay qsi. sound logical or not.

[Anonymous]

All I can say is MTH is certainly choosing an interesting entry strategy into the largest and most established train market, HO scale. Rather than enter positively, they have chosen to sue and hire lawyers, and threaten and bully, thus they are spending most of their energy defending themselves.

[Anonymous]

"I have been told by many in the DCC community that prior art exists for most/all of the items on your patents. Their current problem is cost of lawyers, etc."

You need a lawyer to send a certified letter? [?]

[garyseven]

Andy Edleman

You have shown grace under pressure. Thanks for posting.

[JerryZeman]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Bill Conner

MTH makes the best trains in O gauge and they'll do the same in HO. DCS is by far the best system in O gauge. You HO guys will forget about Athearn Genesis once MTH puts their fine models on the market. Mike Wolf doesn't get enough credit for his revival of O gauge and he'll do the same for HO.

[(-D][(-D][(-D][(-D][(-D]

ROFLMAOPIMP

I'll grant you that Mr. Wolf doesn't get enough credit for his revival of three rail O, but he hasn't done a darn thing to revive two rail O.

And as far as three rail O, make mine 3rd Rail and Atlas.

HO doesn't need a revival it was doing just fine before MTH showed up.

regards,
Jerry

[Anonymous]

Andy,

[We have made it known that if any DCC firm has prior art to any of the claims in our patents that we will not waste our or their firm’s resources on unnecessary legal expenses]

I have been told by many in the DCC community that prior art exists for most/all of the items on your patents. Their current problem is cost of lawyers, etc. Could you explain your above comment and make a reference as to where this is written. I'm sure many would be interested?

[Anonymous]

To Andy;
MTH is suing Lionel for including the features (QSI decoders) that the note on the BLI site says were removed from the BLI engines. HOW IS THAT NOT SUING A DCC MANUFACTURE in the HO community?
Checking most of the litigations going on I have not found the name of Yang however most analysts says _that_ litigation will go on for years! This link for those interested; http://www.toytrainrevue.com/korea.htm and there are many more without the MTH spin!
I would be interested in references (links) that connects the Yang name and the litigation?
The address for BLI is;
Broadway Limited Imports, LLC
601 Shenandoah Village Drive, STE 9E/F
Waynesboro, VA 22980
Could you show where you found the information that this is also the address of Yang, Korea Brass, etc. as you stated? I am assuming that you know that some/many of BLI engines are made in China, right?

My final comment is IMHO indicative of the two companies, MTH and QSI. QSI has a Yahoo group and answers any questions about their sound decoders and has shown they they correct possible problems as related to DCC. Except for the fact that it runs on DC (which another sound decoder will soon do) they are manufacturing a DCC product. Could you give me the link to the MTH group which will answer any questions about your product?

Jon Miller

[Roadtrp]

I'm a rookie and have no experience with either DCC or DCS. I'm in N scale, so what happens in HO really has no impact on me. But I don't really understand what the big deal is.

MTH has patented their new technology, and wants to defend that patent. I don't see anything wrong with that. As for DCC or DCS; no one is forcing anyone to buy anything. If you want DCC, buy DCC. If you want DCS, buy DCS. Where's the problem?

As for comparisons with the Mac operating system... Apple has definitely NOT been a failure. It may hold a small percentage of the market as regards to the operating system, but it is one of the top two or three individual manufacturers in terms of units sold. That doesn't sound like much of a failure to me.

MTH is offering what it feels is a superior product. Those who are more concerned about features than compatibility will probably buy their product. Those who are more concerned about compatibility probably won't. The marketplace is all about choice, and MTH is providing an additional one. Why does that arouse so much anger?

As I said... I'm a rookie, so I guess I just don't understand.

[%-)] [%-)]

[Anonymous]

With malice toward none, may I jump in?

As a close-to-seventy-year-old person who has watched the world turn a few times, I'd caution ALL of you, manufacturers and hobbyists alike, that this whole affair, when taken in sum, is hurtling toward what might be disaster for a hobby that, in my view, has matured greatly since I was eight and my Dad gave me a pair of Lionel F-3s for Christmas.

We've seen a marketplace with more variety and quality than at any time in history. We've seen technology make possible things little kids like me (back then) only dreamed about. And yet, it seems that MTH, Lionel, Atheran's new owners and a host of others including Class 1 railroads and apparently unscrupulous business people are determined to kill the goose.

Terry Thompson, your editorial on the U.P. lawsuit was a good start - but only a start. I see you, Carstens and all the other mentor/publishers of our hobby as the last resort for reason. We've got to find some way to get everyone to understand that this IS a hobby, but is practiced by a variety of individuals not many of whom have unlimited funds or are interested in the vagaries of legal action. We are, for sure, the most litigous people in the history of the world.

To Athearn/MDCs new owners:

A little discounting won't hurt you! You've already got your money by the time the discount is applied. Those who buy for cheap ought to understand they've given up service, and hopefully they can manage with that. You're about to be surprised by what Irv Athearn and Bill Walthers (not to mention General Motors) already knew; not everyone will spring for MSRP.

To MTH:

The sandbox analogy is a good one. NMRA should be the mentor of the DCC concept. If you want to build a proprietary system then spend some of those advertising bucks telling us poor technologically-challenged folks that "Our stuff won't work with your NMRA DCC - are you ok with that?". I personally won't trade my "classic" equipment I've had for fifty years and successfully converted to "universal" DCC to get your 1mph incremental speed change, but others might - help them make an informed choice.

To BL and what appears to be your many roommates:

We've already taught you customer service is a REQUIREMENT in the retail business in general and the model railroad business in particular. Now don't spoil your new image by cheating on your competitors/suppliers.

And, finally, to Union Pacific:

Hey, *** Davidson, U.P. and I go back a long way - all the way to Edd Bailey and the U.P. 8444 off Wyoming rails (at my request) in 1966 for the first time since the death of steam.
I will defend to the death your right (just as MTH's) to protect your property. I said in a prior post that a buck a loco or car that insures prototypical accuracy is OK with me - I've seen to much Armour Yellow that wasn't over the years and it'd be great to have your guarantee that it's right. I think expanding that to the fallen flags is a bit of a reach; the flags are fallen, remember? But can't you find a little more palatable way than a fiery legalese blast in the media to announce your plan, and then maybe a kinder gentler way to summon the affected to the table?

And by the way, Athearn and Lionel, U.P. has a right to defend their logo just as you do. They just need a less bombastic way to do it.

I hope for great success with the WGH campaign, but folks, if I were just starting out in Model Railroading and read about all this stuff, I think I'd opt for R/C airplanes instead.

Really; look at the big picture! Isn't it ridiculous? I thought we were playing with trains.......

[Anonymous]

As a re-entry guy into HO that has not yet made a decision on my DCC/DCS system this so this is a topic that I will monitor very closely in the coming months. So far it is off to a roaring start.

I currently have 25 MTH O-Scale locomotive but have not bought into their DCS system. Why? Actually IMHO it has too many features. I really couldn't care less about smoke rates, clickity-clack, squeaky breaks are annoying, Doppler sound, music and voice broadcast from my locomotives and 35 other features that I will probably NEVER use.

Give me diesel/steam sounds, lights, horns/whistles and wireless operations and I am a HAPPY CAMPER.

[jacon12]

I'd just like everybody to get along and be reasonable, a lot of this[:D]
and very little if any of this[}:)]. Maybe throw in some of this[:o)] When the fighting starts the whole place gets a[B)].
Personally I like BFI's Class A 2-6-6-4 with these features:
Articulated Engine Sounds
Synchronized Chuff
Authentic Class A Whistle
Authentic Class A Bell
Squealing brakes
Doppler effect
Steam Dynamo (Sound of steam electric generator (dynamo) when lights turn on. Includes gradual headlight turn-on effect as dynamo speeds up.)

Sound of Power (change in chuff sounds with differing loads for more realism)
Coupler Crash
Air let off (in neutral)
Air pumps (in neutral)
Numerous Water sounds (in neutral - blow down, pop off & injector)
Blower hiss
Headlight (dim head light in neutral)
Slave (mutes whistle and bell for double heading)

Mechanical features will include:
Powerful 5-pole can motor with flywheel
Die-cast locomotive chassis
Die-cast tender chassis
Detailed tender underbody
Plated bell & whistle
Deck plate from cab to tender
Prototypical Swing Out Scale Coupler
Provision for Double-heading with Replaceable Coupler
Seuthe® Smoke Unit compatible
Many exceptional prototypical added-on details like piping and appliances

Prototypical cab interior, including backhead, etc.
Operating headlight
Directional backup light
Firebox Glow
Illuminated Headlight Number Board
Authentic paint scheme and correct locomotive numbers
Magnetic knuckle coupler on tender
RP-25 contour on drivers and wheels
Will operate on Code 70, 83 and 100 rail
Minimum 22" Radius recommended for best results

Though it has an msrp of $499
MTH's yet to be released K-4 has, what seems to a new person, all this and maybe a little more and operates on 18 inch curves and it's $100 less. The strictly business side of me says that this is good to compete with BFI in this segment of the hobby.
So, I'm a learnin' and its fascinatin' and I sincerely hope everybody can get along.

[Anonymous]

"The HO guys never asked for a "better" system, something MTH seems hell bent on giving them. What they want is hassle free compatability. It isn't hassle free if they have to buy additional equipment to take advantage of all the features, ie proprietary. "
-----------------------------------

I'm certain that you don't presume to speak for the HO community as a whole, but it's wrong to assert that folks may not want a better system (added versatility and features). Why should HO be any more reluctant to move forward in terms of technology than any other scale?

From what I have read, those who enjoy the level of features available with conventional DC operation will have that capability with the MTH models without buying any additional equipment. Those who have an enjoy DCC will also have that same capability and compatibility, again without the requirement to spend money for additional components. But those who may want to enjoy the additional capabilities that DCS offers will be able to access those features with the addition of DCS components--an entirely optional choice as far as the consumer is concerned. So I fail to see where the door is closed on anybody's existing or potential interest in regard to control system of choice.

I also fail to see a logical basis for bashing MTH simply because they have announced their intention to enter the HO segment of the hobby--a logical extension of their current activities in O gauge/scale, Standard Gauge, and Large Scale. The vast majority of hobbyists will, quite properly, judge them on the basis of the products they produce once these products become available. As always, the marketplace will make the ultimate case for or against MTH HO, as it would for any other manufacturer's line. Why slam the door on innovation even before it has been given a chance to be tried and tested in the hands of those who may be looking for something more or something a bit different?

Allan Miller
NMRA Life Member 4459

[Big_Boy_4005]

I too appreciate Mr Edleman taking the time to discuss these issues. For the record, I own and am very pleased with a large quantity of MTH Premier line rolling stock. I am not an MTH "basher", but rather a concerned hobbyist, and 30 year member of the NMRA. (That happens to be longer than MTH has been in business.)

I don't think that it is fair or proper for my fellow O gaugers to simply jump into this conversation and give glowing testimonials for DCS. I find it rude and counter produvtive. If you aren't a member of the NMRA or an active HO modeler, this isn't your fight.

I think that it is clear that MTH has some serious public relations issues when it comes to the HO marketplace. This isn't about the details of any lawsuit, it's about respect and image within the model railroading community. I feel that in order for MTH to expand into this new market, they are going to have to stop being perceived as a bully by their potential customers.

For MTH this is a business, for everyone else this is a hobby. The HO guys never asked for a "better" system, something MTH seems hell bent on giving them. What they want is hassle free compatability. It isn't hassle free if they have to buy additional equipment to take advantage of all the features, ie proprietary.

What these guys want is an olive branch, something that may violate every business principle that Mr Wolfe stands for. It is safe to say that he has spent a lot of money to develop this system and win the patent rights, but in his vigorous persuit of satisfaction, he has stepped on the toes of those whose support he needs the most for this to be successful.

[Anonymous]

Ouch I have a Headach now, I just read the 3 pages of this topic and let me tell you I am more confused than ever!

Mr Edelmen,

Since your company is shall we say causing this storm, would you be so kind to explain to me in laymens terms why your products should interest me. I am a new modeler and I do look for any information about a product based on it ability to work with the NMRA and work within there standards, its my way of knowing if one product will work with another. I also firmly believe that any company large or small should be a good corprate citizen to both the consumer and competitors. It is never in anyones interest to be the bad guy on either side. I am not a lawyer so all the legal speeches dont phase me so if your truley interested in the HO market may I suggest your company work with the DCC industry and the HO modelers. Find common ground Sir and we will all benefit from the fruits of our labor.


Too all the guys who have stayed on top of this topic thank you. This type of information is very importamt to everyone because we do pay for it all in the end. If MTH wins we will still pay for it from the losers who will raise there prices to pay the judgment.

Above all else lets be nice to each other we are all in this for the same reasons it our hobbies and our time to relax. Nothing good will ever come from fighting. We all lose.

If I wanted to fight and call names all the time with people I would take up Hockey.

Sincerly Polizi
AKA Will

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jacon12

but I get the feeling that if anyone bought an MTH HO locomotive and posted something about it here, he'd get crucified.

No you won't get crucified, hardly anyone would chastize you for buying MTH. Ity's just that most of us have been left with a bad taste in our mouths by MTH, if someone buys their product, that's great, fi they like it. But most of us realize there's better products out there for a better value, you just have to sift through all the BS to find the right stuff for you.

[Anonymous]

I think that MTH needs to reassure the HO community that the NMRA S.9 and RP-9 (DCC) Standards will not be litigated, patented or otherwise threatened by MTH as those standards exist today. Furthermore, MTH should affiliate itself with the NMRA and MRIA. If MTH does these things, they have a chance of prospering, if not...

[jacon12]

As the new guy in the hobby I'm still trying to fathom it all... and I mean ALL..... but I get the feeling that if anyone bought an MTH HO locomotive and posted something about it here, he'd get crucified. That leaves me wondering if I want to even get in this hobby. But, like I said... I'm new.. so what do I know yet.
In the end though I believe everyone should run what they want to run on their own layout, I don't like censorship.. IF this is what this is.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Allan Miller

Andy:

All I can say is that you are to be commended for taking the time to respond to the string of often irrational, misinformed, and even vitriolic posts presented here, and for doing so in a highly professional manner. That reflects great credit on you and the firm you work with.

Unfortunately, some of those who have posted here most certainly do not show the same level of class for the hobby they pretend to represent. Thank goodness they and their spitefull, ill-tempered comments represent nothing but the views of a small and insignificant minority!

Allan's comments are right on! The Rock also commends Andy for his professional and accurate response. These negative posts are a lot of hot air from people who are ignorant about MTH and DCS.

[Anonymous]

Andy:

All I can say is that you are to be commended for taking the time to respond to the string of often irrational, misinformed, and even vitriolic posts presented here, and for doing so in a highly professional manner. That reflects great credit on you and the firm you work with.

Unfortunately, some of those who have posted here most certainly do not show the same level of class for the hobby they pretend to represent. Thank goodness they and their spitefull, ill-tempered comments represent nothing but the views of a small and insignificant minority!

[AggroJones]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dougal

QUOTE: Originally posted by 4884bigboy
And, how many HO people really want smoke? I know I don't.

It matters for me, if its like the Bachmann smoke, no, if its like the MTH O Gauge smoke, yes, I've seen many of them and they look great!

If a smoke system had that much output, it would look fine. But, since I would be trapped in a 9 x 11 room with a robustly puffing steamer, I wouldn't utilize the smoke system.

[ben10ben]

Although I certainly don't buy MTH products, I think that we should all appreciate Mr. Edelman taking the time to type of three very lengthy and informative posts on this forum.

Paul 3, I think that I can answer a couple of your questions. First of all, with DC, your remote has a LCD display and a thumbwheel. You use the thumbwheel to dial in a speed in scale miles per hour, as read by the LCD display. It starts out as 0 when you first turn your engine on, and advancing the thumbwheel causes the engine speed to advance in scale miles per hour. The engine will maintain this speed right on the mark.
I assume that when MTH says altering the start-up direction, they mean the direction that the engines moves when you first tell it to move without pushing the direction button.

[Anonymous]

I wouldn't buy an M.T.H. product . First they are not lthat good. Second, they are overpriced for what you get. Third, Edleman acts so pious while trying to rip all of us off. If all of us walked the thin line of legallity that M.T.H.does this hobby would never get advanced. The market place will eventually deal with the likes of M.T.H.

[Anonymous]

MTH got me back into the hobby after 20 years on the sidelines. Andy Edleman has taken the time to personally respond to a number of my e-mails over the years. Not everyone is in love with MTH, but I have always found them to be "train people" who care passionately about what they do. They make great products in tremendous variety and I alwasy feel that I get at least as much as I paid for, and often more.

There are certainly plenty of folks out there who revel in MTH bashing, and I find a number of the posts contained in this topic to be outlandishly negative and critical. MTH has a right to protect their business interests. You have a right not to buy their products. But you should be a bit more open minded.

[Anonymous]

[Anonymous]

I'm a die-hard TMCC user, but I do appreciate Mr. Edleman's professional responses to this issue.

I wouldn't even be involved in this hobby if it wasn't for MTH's superior starter-sets.

Ed

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by 4884bigboy
And, how many HO people really want smoke? I know I don't.

It matters for me, if its like the Bachmann smoke, no, if its like the MTH O Gauge smoke, yes, I've seen many of them and they look great!

[Anonymous]

MTH is taking a big risk going into the HO market. I personally don't see why MTH chose a K4 when BLI announced their's first. Could it just be to get back at BLI. Maybe. Also, there's so many features on those MTH locomotives, do you really want them all?!
I mean, adjusting the smoke chuff rate? Seems a bit ''overdone'' to me. And, how many HO people really want smoke? I know I don't.
MTH also should have joined the NMRA. They should have made a system that will be easily compatible with other systems. There are so many ''should haves'', I can't list them all.
That being said, long live Athearn, BLI, Bachmann, Atlas, Proto, Stewart and countless other respectable HO manufacturers!!

[Anonymous]

My apologies to Mr. AntonioFP45.

I re-read your posts and they were all very professional. Before writing mine I should have taken your advice given to others who have posted in this thread:

"......... stay cool! It took me years to learn that when we get nasty, we often are not taken seriously!"

R.H.