richhotrainAll you have to do is look at the demise of the LHS to see where the hobby is headed.
False. The internet killed the local train store. There are a thousand times more places to buy train stuff now than ever before. And it is cheaper than ever if just once us old farts would consider inflation.
NittanyLionFor the record, a video game is $59.99 at launch. Its a pretty hard line. Its such a common pricepoint (that is, there are titles under that point but virtually nothing above) that when it shifted from $49.99 it was a major news story. I mean in mainstream news.
First I agree..That $80.00 video game was for Wii..It was $79.95.
I still use my trusty old PS1 and PS2..I can't afford the going price for a PS3 or X Box 360..
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
As part of the younger generation of modelers, perhaps I can give a different perspective. I got involved in the hobby when I was 8 and my dad bought my brother and I a Bachmann HO starter set. My brother could car less but I thought trains were just the coolest things in the world ( no doubt contributing to my popularity in grade school). We have spoken about the demise of the LHS but I remember in the 1990s both KB Toys and Toys R Us both sold HO freight cars at reasonable prices ($3 a piece). That was very affordable and unfortunately has gone the way of the dodo bird.
But my generation also grew up with Thomas the Tank Engine. I think Thomas helped spawn a new generation of model railroaders.
Also, I don't think all is lost with the hobby. I volunteer at a local railroad museum. While a lot of our volunteers are baby boomers, there are also a fair amount who are my age and younger. We have a number of high school and middle school aged volunteers who are both modelers and railfans. In fact some of them are as young as 8. I don't think the hobby is dying, but rather undergoing drastic changes, some good and some bad.
Modeling the Pennsylvania Railroad in N Scale.
www.prr-nscale.blogspot.com
Thing is, growing up with trains is no guarantee. Tony Koester's kids clearly grew up around scale model trains,yet he has indicated in some articles it didn't stick with any of them. His grandkids, on the other hand... I did grow up around model trains, and it did stick with me. My sister never got interested. My nephew is somewhat interested int eh hobby, neother of my boys is, despite both being hugely into Thomas when they were little.
The hobby may be smaller than at its peak, but it is NOT going away. Everyone sees cars, every day. Slot cars were going to wipe out model railroading. However, model railroading is still here, slot cars have all but disappeared. Despite a much greater exposure to cars and trucks as compared to trains, in the real world.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
I have no idea where the hobby is going. But, in terms of bringing youth into the hobby, or hobbies in general, a lot depends on what kids are exposed to, encouraged to pursue, and how things are explained to them. I don't fall into the above 50 (or even 40...for a little while longer at least ) age bracket, but I have been building models my whole life. My Dad introduced me to the hobby of modeling and encouraged it. I had no interest in video games or TV and computers turned me off. I have done the same with my kids. My young Son and pre-teen Daughter all would rather work with me on my layout or one of their chosen hobbies then watch TV, play video games or surf the Internet. Both would rather come with me to the hobby shop, craft/art store, or guitar shop then the mall or some electronics/video game store. I understand that all kids are different, and what works for some won't for others. I know this is subjective and open to debate, but I feel as parents, we have the power to shape and nurture our kids in a positive direction and help them to learn to appreciate what it means to acquire the skills necessary to build or even fix something for themselves...whatever that may be. But as many of you know, this takes work and patience on our (parents) part. As a teacher, I see far too many parents taking the easy way out and letting PBS, Hollywood, Game Stop or something/someone else do the work and raise their kids. In most cases these kids lack the patience or creativity to sit down and work on a hobby, let alone assemble track. To be fair to them, they also do not know where to even begin should they have the inclination to take up model building. Everything is immediate for them. Turn on the TV and there's your program. Turn on the computer and there's your internet/facebook/twitter etc. Turn on the XBox and there's your game. No patience, imagination, or special skills required or necessary. Also, everything is disposable to them so that if "whatever" breaks, don't fix it, just buy a new one. What does this mean for the future of the hobby or hobbies in general? I don't know. But I suspect there will always be a group of people/segment of society interested in model trains and modeling. But I honestly believe the model train population will never be bigger or even as big as it is currently.
Btw, I am not retired but I also model on a pretty tight budget. The latest and greatest HO scale Athearn or MTH diesels with DCC & Sound are way out of my price range/budget. But I just picked up a new Bachmann F7a with factory DCC & sound for under $100 and love it! I hope Bachmann keeps it up and keeps their prices down.
Sorry for the long post all. I yield the floor...
Happy Modeling!
Don.
"Ladies and gentlemen, I have some good news and some bad news. The bad news is that both engines have failed, and we will be stuck here for some time. The good news is that you decided to take the train and not fly."
NP2626 50 years ago the corner "Hobby Shop" was doing a good business in plastic models and slot cars. Hobby shops are a dying business, ask any owner of a hobby shop how business is and you will hear how tough that business is today and although there was RTR stuff back then, the vast majority of what was available was kits in wood and plastic. I think you're putting the blinders on by referencing what has occurred in the past. What happened in the past is in the past and what is in the future, is in the future, the two aren't mutually interchangeable.
50 years ago the corner "Hobby Shop" was doing a good business in plastic models and slot cars. Hobby shops are a dying business, ask any owner of a hobby shop how business is and you will hear how tough that business is today and although there was RTR stuff back then, the vast majority of what was available was kits in wood and plastic. I think you're putting the blinders on by referencing what has occurred in the past. What happened in the past is in the past and what is in the future, is in the future, the two aren't mutually interchangeable.
I am well aware of the future.
50 years ago the only place I could see model trains was at a hobby shop or by reading the MR magazine in the school or public library. The only trains I saw were the trains the hobby shop carried. None of my friends had or cared about model trains.
Fast forward 50 years. Kids live on the internet. They are used to shopping on the internet, That's normal. With the internet, they don't have access to the 1000 SKU's of model train stuff in the LHS, they have access to almost every single model railroad product made by every single model manufacturer on the planet. They have access to dozens of fourms to read about and discuss trains. They have access to thousands of videos of real and model trains.
The reason model railroading will survive is that we embrace technology, we embrace innovation. CNC, resin casting, sophisticated electronics, 3D printing, its all good. 50 years from now it will be very different from today.
And the "model railroading is doomed" discussion will still be going on. 8-)
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
zstripe Carl, I was the ''Goof'' that brought up ''Exposure'' and I agree,totally with your comments..If the hobby does die,,at 70,,I doubt,I will be around to see it... Cheers, Frank
Carl,
I was the ''Goof'' that brought up ''Exposure'' and I agree,totally with your comments..If the hobby does die,,at 70,,I doubt,I will be around to see it...
Cheers,
Frank
Yup, same here. Which brings up another point. It's been argued here & in other discussion that the costs of hobbies is all relevant to inflation & salaries etc and that proportionately, stuff still costs the same as it did 40-50 years ago.
Do the math. No, it doesn't! Look back at, say, the early/mid 1960's. You're an average model builder. You have a steady full time job & you make average wages. After taxes you bring home maybe $80.-$90. a week. A Quarter scale model kit of a P-51 Mustang costs roughly $1.00. Now fast forward to the present. Your take home pay is now 10 times what it was in the 60's, say $800.-$900. a week. But, does that model kit cost 10 times what it did then, $10.00? NOPE. It costs $35.- $40. or even $50.! That's 30-40,50 times what it cost in the 60's. The cost is now actually very dis-proportionately high to the rate of salary increase since then.
Carl
"I could never belong to any club that would have me as a member."
BRAKIE AVRNUTNow, if an 11 year old kid walks into the LHS (if he can find one) that kit, a couple bottles of paint, glue & a new paint brush would likely set him back $50.00!! What 11 year old kid can do that? Carl,Are we talking about the same 11 year olds that has high end cell phones PS3s,X Boxes and $45-80.00 video games? Are these the same 11 years that has high dollar R/C cars?
AVRNUTNow, if an 11 year old kid walks into the LHS (if he can find one) that kit, a couple bottles of paint, glue & a new paint brush would likely set him back $50.00!! What 11 year old kid can do that?
Carl,Are we talking about the same 11 year olds that has high end cell phones PS3s,X Boxes and $45-80.00 video games? Are these the same 11 years that has high dollar R/C cars?
For the record, a video game is $59.99 at launch. Its a pretty hard line. Its such a common pricepoint (that is, there are titles under that point but virtually nothing above) that when it shifted from $49.99 it was a major news story. I mean in mainstream news.
But yeah kids have $50 to throw at something nowadays. A bag of chips is north of $4 now. Paperback books are $8. Hardcovers are like $35 sometimes. People try to give their kids a usable amount of money. Handing your kid a $5 now means he can get a 20 oz Coke and a candy bar, but not much else.
We just had an open house at our model railroad club and parents brought their kids. There were a lot of young people interested in trains, think we even picked up some new young members. One dad brought his son and asked if his son could run his diesels during the show. I had my two "old" Proto2000, E9s running on a passenger train, he had his two new Broadway Limited, E9s with sound! We swapped them out and this is the first time he had got to run them on a large layout pulling a long passenger train. This young man was so happy for getting to run his new motive power, we new have a new member for life now. His father was delighted that we let him run on our club layout.
I know that most model railroad clubs do not allow young people to join their club, we do, and have made new model railroaders for life.
BRAKIE AVRNUTNow, if an 11 year old kid walks into the LHS (if he can find one) that kit, a couple bottles of paint, glue & a new paint brush would likely set him back $50.00!! What 11 year old kid can do that? Carl,Are we talking about the same 11 year olds that has high end cell phones PS3s,X Boxes and $45-80.00 video games? Are these the same 11 years that has high dollar R/C cars? At our train show in April I seen several 12 year olds buying Atlas DCC/Sound equipped locomotives. Where did they get the money for all this stuff? From dear old Mom and Dad just like its been for as long as I can remember.. The sky isn't falling-it may be cracked though. Remember today's kids are very computer savvy and they know how to order on line..
At our train show in April I seen several 12 year olds buying Atlas DCC/Sound equipped locomotives.
Where did they get the money for all this stuff?
From dear old Mom and Dad just like its been for as long as I can remember..
The sky isn't falling-it may be cracked though.
Remember today's kids are very computer savvy and they know how to order on line..
I suppose it's because we are all different. I'm sure there are now & were then kids who got handed the money from dear ol' mom & dad. That's where I guess I was different. My mom & dad didn't have a lot of money to hand us kids for that kind of stuff. We went out, mowed lawns, shoveled snow etc & earned our spending money.
Good Morning!
I know this has been discussed more times than you can count, but some interesting points have been brought up here. I would definetly have to agree with what Rich has said. The kids certainly have totally different interests than we did. Just look at how the country has changed since we were kids. Virtually every aspect of a kids life today is so TOTALLY different from what those of born in the the 30's to 60's era experienced. I have two grandaughters, age 15 & 17 and their whole life & mindset is so completely different from what mine was at that age that you can't even begin to compare them. I suppose it has always been that way. I'm sure our childhoods were completely different from those of our grandparents too.
I also think the point that someone has made about "exposure" has a lot to do with it too. We grew up with a great deal of exposure to hobby's like model railroading & kit building. That's what kids did then. Just about every town had a LHS or two. And if it didn't there was always stores like Woolworths & Newberrys etc. They all had hobby sections with model kits, train stuff, model paints & the like. When I was a kid we even had a local hardware store that had a hobby section. You saw hobby stuff everywhere, were exposed to it & most importantly for a kid, it was affordable!
Back around 1959-1960 when I was 11-12 years old, my best buddy & I would mow lawns in the summer, shovel walks & driveways in the winter. We could always find ways to make a few bucks. And we had two LHS's, both within walking distance & the 5 & 10 was only a couple blocks away. Saturdays we hit the LHS, maybe each with a buck or two we could spend. We could go in, buy a Revell 1/72 scale airplane kit for 50 cents; Testors paints were 19 cents a bottle, so was a tube of glue & maybe 10 cents for a new paint brush. Spend a $1.00 or $1.25 & we had hours of kitbuilding enjoyment. And, that LHS had a steady stream of kids in & out o Saturday, all buying low end purchases like that, but it was a "bread & butter" day for the LHS owner. He probably made more gross profit that day selling pocket change stuff to kids than he did any other day of the week selling higher end stuff to the serious modelers.
Now, if an 11 year old kid walks into the LHS (if he can find one) that kit, a couple bottles of paint, glue & a new paint brush would likely set him back $50.00!! What 11 year old kid can do that? Not very many. Point is, that when kids got priced out of the LHS, that was the beginning of the end for the LHS, as we knew it. A whole "bread & butter" customer base was lost. With the demise of places like Woolworths etc, came further loss of exposure to hobbies. Even the big box stores like Walmart don't have model kits, hobby stuff & trains anymore. (At least the one we have closest to us doesn't anymore. They used to.) There's very little everyday exposure to hobby stuff for the kids anymore, like we had. So, naturally, the interest isn't going to be there either.
NP262650 years ago the corner "Hobby Shop" was doing a good business in plastic models and slot cars. Hobby shops are a dying business, ask any owner of a hobby shop how business is and you will hear how tough that business is today and although there was RTR stuff back then, the vast majority of what was available was kits in wood and plastic. I think you're putting the blinders on by referencing what has occurred in the past. What happened in the past is in the past and what is in the future, is in the future, the two aren't mutually interchangeable.
Dr. Frankendiesel aka Scott Running BearSpace Mouse for president!15 year veteran fire fighterCollector of Apple //e'sRunning Bear EnterprisesHistory Channel Club life member.beatus homo qui invenit sapientiam
dehusman These same discussions have been going on for decades. 50 years ago model railroading was doomed because of plastic ready to run models and slot cars.
These same discussions have been going on for decades. 50 years ago model railroading was doomed because of plastic ready to run models and slot cars.
NP 2626 "Northern Pacific, really terrific"
Northern Pacific Railway Historical Association: http://www.nprha.org/
Hi,
I tend to agree, those of us over 50 likely grew up with trains as kids and our love for them stuck with us.
I'm 69, have 4 adult kids and several grandkids. All like to look at the layout and a few like to make the trains whistle and run around the tracks. But none are interested enough to want their own.
Sadly, I think that situation is more the norm, than not.
ENJOY !
Mobilman44
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central
50 years ago in 1963, a Baby Boomer was 17 years old and dreaming of a real layout with landscaping and mountains and forests and a determination to build it wheh he grew up and had the funds to do so.
A 17 year old today was born in 1996. How many of those kids have ever owned an electric train or built and run even a small layout?
As Don Meredith used to sing on Monday Night Football, Turn out the Lights, the Party's over.
Rich
Alton Junction
NP2626 Rich, I've always found predicting the future to be a great way to prove one's self wrong. Still, I feel you are probably more right, than wrong!
Rich, I've always found predicting the future to be a great way to prove one's self wrong. Still, I feel you are probably more right, than wrong!
It's less a prediction than it is pure reality. It is all about demographics. All of us between the ages of 50 and 80 grew up owning and running Lionel and American Flyer trains as kids. That simply doesn't happen anymore. Today's kids have different interests. It is that simple.
rrinker There are TONS of kids still interested in seeing the trains, and NOT just the modern stuff rolling by on the main line.
There are TONS of kids still interested in seeing the trains, and NOT just the modern stuff rolling by on the main line.
Wierd, I can always find the products produced for my chosen prototype, most of the time on ebay since the 'limited run' productions where all 8-10 years ago, but I find so many of them I could have purchased them all 4-5x over - in fact many of them I DID purchase twice since I had to start all over a few years ago. Not too many new locos are made for my road, but luckily the paint scheme is pretty simple, decals are available, and they still do make undecorated things. The LHS is a Hobbytown, they have almost no train stuff except some Bachmann train set level items, but I can almost always find what I need at Klein's.
Our club does shows in public locations such as hobby shows and, coming up, a railroad museum across the street from an operating steam railroad. There are TONS of kids still interested in seeing the trains, and NOT just the modern stuff rolling by on the main line.
Having said what I just said above, my own grandson is very interested in trains and I got him started in Model Railroading this past Christmas. My own two sons had an interest in the hobby when I got back into it, in 1988. Who knows if they will get back into it; or, not? This hobby is multifaceted and a fantastic experience builder and it certainly would be a shame if it were to die! However, look at what young people do in their spare time now. Many can't pull themselves out of their cell phones!
Albert Einstein said: "I fear the day that technology will surpass our human interaction. The world will have a generation of idiots".
Larry,
I will certainly agree with Your last,paragraph,,..
All you have to do is look at the demise of the LHS to see where the hobby is headed.
If I need to buy something, anything, for the layout, I wind up on the Internet searching MB Klein, Caboose Hobbies, Hobbylinc, and the like.
If I need a discontinued loco or passenger car, I search eBay.
Half the time or worse, I cannot even find available something I need.
The hobby is dying guys, face it.
Craig, I have notice a lot of young faces at train shows and trackside and I think the hobby will remain about the same in the coming years.One needs to attend train shows and go trackside to see this.I'm sure there's a lot of young forum members.
Looking back the hobby has been "doomed" before from the lack of younger modelers.When I was young most Columbus Ohio model railroad club members was older in their 40-60s.At 65 I see a lot of young faces.
I seen many roll playing games come on strong and fade away..Video games,R/C cars and model trains seems to be a constant.I've seen my fair share of "hot shot" modelers* come and go over the years while the "average" modeler stays.
I do think the price bubble will burst or Bachmann will become the clear winner since they keep improving and can be had for around $35-64.00 while other manufacturers prices keeps increasing.. A $89.95 RTR boxcar by 2015 is possible with the current rate of price increases..
Who knows we may see the raise of detailing articles and topics in the coming months.Return of kits may be a possibility.
*Hot shot modeler"..We all seen these modelers before..They hot shoot it into the hobby and go all out buying high dollar cars and locomotives,a small library of books,plan for that perfect Godzilla size layout,very active on forums,in clubs and poof! they're gone never to be seen or heard from again..
I really can't answer this question. Being from the old school where there was Model-er in Model-ing, my feelings are the hobby headed for the Alf-Alpha when the RTR thing took on such a heavy proportion of the activity. So, my point of view is slanted towards wondering if building miniature railroads is even a hobby, anymore? Seems more like collecting collectables to me.
The hobby is what it is and what it is to me, is not what it is to others. I like to build things and have pride in what I've built and the effort I put into it. If it weren't for the fact that some manufacturers are still providing me with kits, I would drop this hobby like a "Hot Potato".
I agree, I think the prices are getting out of hand. I love steam locomotives! However, being retired and on a fixed income my ability to buy much in the way of steamers (or, Diesels for that matter) from a retailer is almost non-existent.
Given my opinions on how I see the hobby, I really don't see too bright of a future! However, I am proven wrong on a daily basis in everything else I have opinions on, so given that, once again I have to say: "I really can't answer this question". I only see that the hobby will likely morph into something I probably won't have much interest in.
This is, Just My Opinion,,,I find it hard to believe,that it is dying out,,even in the 40's and 50's,not every kid was involved with trains,there were,model ships,wood&plastic,model car kits,planes and so forth..But then most kids,would not know it existed,without exposure..Therein,I believe is the key,,''exposure''..The kids from the later years and now are being bombarded with tv and other similar adds of all this neat elect.tech..Which I am not against,,but there is no more hands,experience any more,,,I'm willing to bet,there are a lot of kids,and for that matter,grown-ups,have never held a saw and hammer in their hands,let alone used them.. Again it bowels down to that word again,,''exposure''....And then there is the,''Ready To Repair'' side of the Hobby..I believe,again just my opinion,,,kids and grown ups,not all,, are lacking a real important skill,if you will,called,''Common Sense'',,,,,,,,Good Day To All!!
Oh boy, here we go again !
What the heck. I will offer my .
The model railroad hobby is on its way to extinction.
Cost is one thing, and it sure is an expensive hobby. But, it is not cost that will bring it down. It will be lack of interest. Today's kids don't grow up with an electric train set. The fascination that gripped the kids born between 1930 and 1960 does not exist, at least on the same scale (no pun intended), for kids born between 1970 and 2000. And why should it? Their area of fascination is are different one with video games and computer games and the like.
The kids born between 1930 and 1960 are growing old and dying off. Some of them have enough money and time to buy what they want so the hobby can still be sustained a while longer. But it is doomed, make no mistake about it. Will it disappear entirely? Probably not. But, it will eventually be a much smaller niche market than it is today.
Where is model railroading headed? Not to my fathers home, that's for sure. He can't see any point in watching a toy train go round and round as he puts it. I do however have a grand nephew who is absolutely nuts about trains. He's just getting started in electric trains. When he saw my layout he was so excited he almost went into a coma! Now he can't wait for his next visit. But alas, Virginia is more than a few steps away. Closer at hand is my neighbor who just hit 20. He's been a train nut since he could crawl and I made sure he had a steady diet of trains. He has a small HO shelf layout in his bedroom and intends to expand. I have around a dozen friends in this area who have layouts varying in size from a counter top to a three room empire and most have their families involved. From what I can see here I'd say the hobby is in no danger of dying out. Maybe changing a bit from what we understand it to be but not dying out. How different is it today from say, the 1950's?