Doughless I think the percentage of society involved in model railroading is probably similar to the percentage of commercial activity that real railroads participate in. Simply, as the amount of real railroading has declined over the decades, its likely that the percentage of model railroaders have declined as well.
I think the percentage of society involved in model railroading is probably similar to the percentage of commercial activity that real railroads participate in. Simply, as the amount of real railroading has declined over the decades, its likely that the percentage of model railroaders have declined as well.
I would invite you to do some reading on this because your assumptions are not accurate. The railroad's gross tonnage hauled has increased over the last several decades (except for the recent economic downturn when everybody's tonnage dropped).
https://www.aar.org/StatisticsAndPublications/Documents/AAR-Stats-2013-04-17.pdf
Scroll down to page 5. For example in 1950 the railroads hualed 592 billion ton miles, in 2000 they hauled 1,546 billion ton miles, 3 times the amount they hauled in the "glory days" of the transition era. The year to year "noise" caused by overall economic variations is often more than all the annual tonnage hauled in 1890. The "City of New Orleans" song and the Penn Central was 50 years ago. Welcome to the 21st century. Railroads are alive and well.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
Hoo boy. Another how-do-we-engage-the-youth thread.
As a 17-year-old, I'll admit there are fewer young people who enjoy trains. But that doesn't mean we're not here. I know a 15-year-old who built a layout with his dad and runs it everyday. And during my railfan sessions on the UP main, plenty of parents with kids in tow come to watch trains. And the kids want to watch trains! They rattle off what kind of train it is, what it's hauling, and wave like heck at passing trains hoping for a horn blast. We may be few, but we're still here.
As for the argument over the hobby dying, new products making it easier for newcomers to start and finish a layout look promising. Building a complete layout can be daunting even for experienced modelers, and I see a trend of products coming to encourage new people to join the hobby and fallen-away modelers to finish up that "layout that got away."
BRAKIE Here's the rub. Bachmann is filling that void and with their improved models they may become top dog for those beginning the hobby or doesn't have deep pockets. I still maintain one doesn't need DCC or high price cars and locomotives to enjoy the hobby nor does one need to pay full MSRP for their models..
Here's the rub. Bachmann is filling that void and with their improved models they may become top dog for those beginning the hobby or doesn't have deep pockets.
I still maintain one doesn't need DCC or high price cars and locomotives to enjoy the hobby nor does one need to pay full MSRP for their models..
I agree. Price ranges open to present day model railroaders vary significantly and you don't have to she'll out hundreds of dollars on the latest and greatest locomotive with all the bells and whistles (pun intended) if you don't want to. You can pick up cheap yet reliable older DC models from Athearn, Atlas, Bachmann and others online for under $20 or $30 with patience and persistance. The modeler can choose to add details to these models as he/she sees fit or run them as is.
Then there are some of the recent DCC & Sound units being produced by Bachmann. As I posted earlier, I just picked up a Bachmann F7A Santa Fe locomotive that came with factory installed DCC & Sound for under $90 and I am VERY impressed and pleased. They fit my budget and needs just fine and I hope Bachmann continues with this trend. I now am in the market for some streamlined Santa Fe passenger cars. My budget won't allow me to spend $75+ per car for Walthers latest Santa Fe cars (which are works of art). So, I will bide my time and pick up some of the older Athearn streamlined cars that came as kits and add some details to them (something I enjoy doing). My LHS has lots of these older Athearn rolling stock kits on the shelf and I know there are some Santa Fe streamliners in stock for under $10.
Lastly, we have the high end locomotive stuff for $200++ from the likes of Athearn, MTH etc. Out of my price range and budget but obviously not for other modelers. So really, you can spend as much or as little in this hobby and get the same level of enjoyment...which in itself is subjective to the individual modeler.
It's all good! Happy Modeling!
Don.
"Ladies and gentlemen, I have some good news and some bad news. The bad news is that both engines have failed, and we will be stuck here for some time. The good news is that you decided to take the train and not fly."
alco_fan richhotrainAll you have to do is look at the demise of the LHS to see where the hobby is headed. False. The internet killed the local train store. There are a thousand times more places to buy train stuff now than ever before. And it is cheaper than ever if just once us old farts would consider inflation.
richhotrainAll you have to do is look at the demise of the LHS to see where the hobby is headed.
False. The internet killed the local train store. There are a thousand times more places to buy train stuff now than ever before. And it is cheaper than ever if just once us old farts would consider inflation.
False. The only thing that the Internet did was to force LHS's that weren't already doing so to offer discount pricing. When I had three LHS's within reasonable driving distance, they all offered discounts on everything and I went there and bought there in spite of the Internet. And, if those LHS's were still open today, I would still be shopping there. Why did they close? Because there weren't enough old hens like you and me shopping there. And that is because the hobby is dying.
And, as to your assertion that there are a thousand times more places on the Internet to buy train stuff now than ever before, that is patently absurd. At its height, the LHS was everywhere. To say that the number of LHS at its zenith is now dwarfed one thousand fold by Internet shops simply cannot be substantiated.
Rich
Alton Junction
alco_fan hminkyLook at any picture of a model railroading gathering. WGH show, Twin Cities Museum, 2010 Columbia Gorge show 2011 There are thousands more pictures like this. But you old hens keep cackling.
hminkyLook at any picture of a model railroading gathering.
WGH show, Twin Cities Museum, 2010
Columbia Gorge show 2011
There are thousands more pictures like this.
But you old hens keep cackling.
First off, welcome to the chicken coop, fellow hen, you have been doing a lot of cackling on this thread yourself.
Second of all, those photos are meaningless except to demonstrate that old hens like yourself drag your kids and grandkids to train shows on cold winter days in the winter. It doesn't at all mean that the young kids today will take up the hobby.
vsmithBut what I see as a growing hindrance to the future of MRing is there is a gap developing between that which is aimed at beginners vs that which is aimed at the seasoned modeler, it seams like the industry is either aimed at the youngsters who are still enamored with Thomas and the older folks who have been around with already established layouts with deep pockets and can afford to pay the increased prices for more limited production runs. There still is a good amount of lower priced items aimed at the adult who wants to get started but it seams like each year that stock gets a little smaller. This is a tread I think will continue. Its like the manufacturers consider their market either a Thomas kiddie layout type or a full blown basement layout type. Anything left in between is clearly targeted at the RTR types.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
Burlington Northern #24The suggestion is simple quit insulting those of us who are younger, looking to start or are starting out. It seems like every time a thread like this shows up younger modelers get bashed.
Hear! Hear!
Your topic was well stated and should be remembered and thank you for adding your experiences.
Aikidomaster There are a lot of new products available for model railroaders. Much more than ever before. That is the great news. The not so great news is the expense. It is costing more and more to build a layout. It seems to me that if there are more modelers to buy items, the variety and cost of the items might improve. The problem is where to find new members. The youth of today seems to be more interested in video games etc. They do not have the patience to build something like a model (of anything). How do we attract new members? A lot of current modelers are in their 50's, 60's, 70's or beyond. We are dying off!! Suggestions for getting new people interested.
There are a lot of new products available for model railroaders. Much more than ever before. That is the great news. The not so great news is the expense. It is costing more and more to build a layout. It seems to me that if there are more modelers to buy items, the variety and cost of the items might improve. The problem is where to find new members. The youth of today seems to be more interested in video games etc. They do not have the patience to build something like a model (of anything). How do we attract new members? A lot of current modelers are in their 50's, 60's, 70's or beyond. We are dying off!! Suggestions for getting new people interested.
We don't have patience? that's just insulting, I picked the SP&S for a reason. I have to paint everything, I have to decal it all, and I have to do it with the few decal sheets, paints, and RTR items that exist out there. I plan on scratchbuilding a fictional station, it will have a full interior, my passenger cars and cabeese will receive full interiors(paint, details, people). If anything it'll be a time factor because I now have two jobs, I don't have all the free time I did a year ago.
Have you seen Leigh valleys posts about his model aircraft, my posts about mine, various other's posts about their hobbies?
The suggestion is simple quit insulting those of us who are younger, looking to start or are starting out. It seems like every time a thread like this shows up younger modelers get bashed.
SP&S modeler, 1960's give or take a decade or two for some equipment.
http://www.youtube.com/user/SGTDUPREY?feature=guide
Gary DuPrey
N scale model railroader
I agree that the hobby is changing, not dying, but definitely changing.
The switch from the LHS to online sources, the growing dominance and DCC and electronics, the dominance of RTR vs kits, and the growing price gap.
But what I see as a growing hindrance to the future of MRing is there is a gap developing between that which is aimed at beginners vs that which is aimed at the seasoned modeler, it seams like the industry is either aimed at the youngsters who are still enamored with Thomas and the older folks who have been around with already established layouts with deep pockets and can afford to pay the increased prices for more limited production runs. There still is a good amount of lower priced items aimed at the adult who wants to get started but it seams like each year that stock gets a little smaller. This is a tread I think will continue. Its like the manufacturers consider their market either a Thomas kiddie layout type or a full blown basement layout type. Anything left in between is clearly targeted at the RTR types.
Have fun with your trains
hminky It is too expensive now and modern railroading is not as interesting. Harold
It is too expensive now and modern railroading is not as interesting.
Harold
That will depend on who you ask.
I've been trackside and felt the ground tremble as 2 EMD SD70Aces started their tonnage train.If that doesn't get the choo-choo blood flowing nothing will.
The hobby is only expensive as one wants to make it..
Yup,doom,gloom the hobby is dying.
BrianinBuffaloI walked to school uphill both ways, but I had shoes!
You forgot the weather.
And in the blowing snow and cold rain.And I was thankful.
hminky alco_fan Carry on with the doom and gloom, I find your myopia amusing. Your myopia is more interesting. You never saw model railroading at its peak of popularity. So how can you comment on a decline. The hobby has better stuff than ever but less people using it. Harold
alco_fan Carry on with the doom and gloom, I find your myopia amusing.
Carry on with the doom and gloom, I find your myopia amusing.
Your myopia is more interesting. You never saw model railroading at its peak of popularity. So how can you comment on a decline.
The hobby has better stuff than ever but less people using it.
The hobby may be waning a bit, but who cares! There are so many things that one can experience on this planet and it is so easy to do it. People really have a lot more things they can do with there time and money. I can go to the airport and be scuba diving on the Great Barrier Reef tomorrow if I want to.
There are a lot more things we can do with our money these days and I think that's great. Model Railroading is not going anywhere. However as far as being a pastime you will find the ranks may appear to be thinning in most extracurricular activities. I recently have visited the two R/C flying clubs I belonged to a few years back. Membership is way down at both clubs as people are now buying ready to fly and going off on their own to a field to fly their aircraft.
I think the reason these hobbies appear to be in decline is the face to face social interaction is disappearing (including shows). I use this forum for my interaction with fellow modelers and it is all I need at this point. I am quite sure that if the internet did not exist I would belong to a club or two.
World wide sales are the only true way to tell the health of anything. Somewhere buggy whips are still being made for those still interested.
Brent
"All of the world's problems are the result of the difference between how we think and how the world works."
The hobby is not dying.
The future of the trains only LHS is dismal, they are disappearing. The replacement is the local craft store/multi-hobby store, the online merchant, and the train show vendor. There is a separate thread on the end of Floquil. Guess what? Floquil disappeared around here years ago, but there are still a lot of paint colors at the Hobbytown, just not with railroad color labels. So it goes with glue, strip wood, etc. - basic supplies are available.
The future of print magazines isn't too rosy either. Many have folded in the last few years, the remaining ones are busy reinventing themselves for the new era. I hope they succeed, but they will be different. But there is a wealth of hobby and prototype information online.
The future of kits is one of decline and change. The old plastic, wood, and metal kits have been fading away for years. In their place are the new resin and laser kits, but fewer of them. More and more folks use RTR - some exclusively, others partially. But you still have to build the layout (except for the few who can afford a professional). Even using RTR trains, buildings, track, etc. the modeler still builds the layout.
The kids of today have a lot more entertainment choices with video games, internet, 200+ channel TV. But still, a lot of kids, and adults too, like to build things. Some of them will be model railroaders.
And just as some of us enjoy hand tools for at least some of our woodworking, so will some of tomorows model railroaders enjoy scratchbuilding at least for some of their models.
Enjoy
Paul
AikidomasterThe youth of today seems to be more interested in video games etc. They do not have the patience to build something like a model (of anything).
There's a lot of truth to this perspective. If you were born in the 1940s - 1970s -- Your introduction to model railroading was a big deal, and; actually "a growing-up" from the "toys of your youth" -- Model railroading was a really neat thing before the introduction of electronic gadgets.
Anybody still remember the days when styrene models/materials began to emerge, and; how huge this was when compared to the wooden toys & tinplate toys & rubberized automobile toys of circa 1950s?
Conemaugh Road & Traction circa 1956
I'll throw in my thoughts....
Is it less than before....probably. Is it on its way to extinction.....doubtful.
As far as RTR vs scratchbuilding...or LHS vs. the internet....those just represent different paths to the same end...which is simply getting a product a modeler wants at a price he is willing to pay. Back in the day, LHS' sold supplies for scratchbuilding because no producer made the model the hobbyist was seeking. Now the producers make such a product and make it available via the 'net stores, so the need for scratchbuilding or the LHS has become less important.
Its more form over substance, and not really a good way to judge the participation level in the hobby, IMO.
I think all model railroaders enjoy the idea of building something. Whether they sctrachbuild everything, or use a collection of RTR product hunted down via the web, they are still creating their own unique layout, and following through their own unique vision. .Whether it is by kits or RTR, visualizing, planning, and building is part of the fun......I don't see how video games really replace that.
Maybe one way to get kids more involved is to encourage the idea of them creating somthing unique, something that noone else has, rather than playing the same generic game on the same gizmo everybody else has.
- Douglas
BrianinBuffaloThose are some pretty young and short looking old people in your photos. Photoshop no-doubt.
Dr. Frankendiesel aka Scott Running BearSpace Mouse for president!15 year veteran fire fighterCollector of Apple //e'sRunning Bear EnterprisesHistory Channel Club life member.beatus homo qui invenit sapientiam
dehusman I am well aware of the future. 50 years ago the only place I could see model trains was at a hobby shop or by reading the MR magazine in the school or public library. The only trains I saw were the trains the hobby shop carried. None of my friends had or cared about model trains. Fast forward 50 years. Kids live on the internet. They are used to shopping on the internet, That's normal. With the internet, they don't have access to the 1000 SKU's of model train stuff in the LHS, they have access to almost every single model railroad product made by every single model manufacturer on the planet. They have access to dozens of fourms to read about and discuss trains. They have access to thousands of videos of real and model trains. The reason model railroading will survive is that we embrace technology, we embrace innovation. CNC, resin casting, sophisticated electronics, 3D printing, its all good. 50 years from now it will be very different from today. And the "model railroading is doomed" discussion will still be going on. 8-)
I am well aware of the future.
50 years ago the only place I could see model trains was at a hobby shop or by reading the MR magazine in the school or public library. The only trains I saw were the trains the hobby shop carried. None of my friends had or cared about model trains.
Fast forward 50 years. Kids live on the internet. They are used to shopping on the internet, That's normal. With the internet, they don't have access to the 1000 SKU's of model train stuff in the LHS, they have access to almost every single model railroad product made by every single model manufacturer on the planet. They have access to dozens of fourms to read about and discuss trains. They have access to thousands of videos of real and model trains.
The reason model railroading will survive is that we embrace technology, we embrace innovation. CNC, resin casting, sophisticated electronics, 3D printing, its all good. 50 years from now it will be very different from today.
And the "model railroading is doomed" discussion will still be going on. 8-)
Here, at last, is the wise and perspicacious voice. Well done, Sir.
The rest of you should pay attention. Read the above quote again; it is at least 18 karat quality.
Crandell
hminkyYou never saw model railroading at its peak of popularity. So how can you comment on a decline.
I am older than you seem to think. But my worldview is not fossilized, unlike some people.
You missed the point. I am not arguing that it is more popular now than _ever_. I am saying that it is not anywhere near dying, as the old hens insist.
Still confident of that statement. Model railroading will be here longer than you and longer than me.
I am out.
hminky picture of mee-ma and gramps bringing the grandkids to a train show
Adjust your bifocals, Harold. Those are dads and moms around the kids.
I go to train shows with the club. There are plenty of younger people visiting the layout.
hminky I can remember when those aisles were full.
Right. Before the internet. We do not have to go to expensive shows and look at 20 year old dusty, picked over blue box kits any more.
alco_fan hminkyLook at any picture of a model railroading gathering. WGH show, Twin Cities Museum, 2010
Cherry picking a picture of mee-ma and gramps bringing the grandkids to a train show doesn't prove the hobby is healthy.
I can do that too, I can remember when those aisles were full.
I volunteer at our local rail museum, and believe it or not, we get a lot of young visitors who love trains in general, and many have simple model RR's of their own. When parents and grandparents come in with the little Railroaders, I try to give them ideas that will inspire them to possibly build a layout to keep the interest alive with the child. I hand out about five DVD's of my layout a weekend to kids who love trains. I've had quite a few return visitors who tell me things like" it's the only video he watches". The hobby may not be as strong as it was when many of us were kids, but I think it has a pretty solid base, and there will always be a model railroad community.
-Stan
Between threads like this and the lack of availability of key parts, I'm starting to feel like Dagny Tagart over here. Oh well, who is John Galt?
Modeling the Pennsylvania Railroad in N Scale.
www.prr-nscale.blogspot.com
Everyone who says that the hobby isn't dying presents no facts.
Go to a trainshow like the one at Timonium or pictures of train gatherings or the people on this forum.
The hobby is dying with the participants.
It seems that these doom and gloom threads pop up periodically and always go nowhere. Just like the 'end of the world' cults that stockpile supplies or dispose of all their worldly possessions because the world is going to come to an end tomorrow, predictions that model railroading is doomed have been made since model railroading first appeared on the scene, and it hasn't happened yet.
I think hysteria about RTR is way overblown. For example, RTF and Foamies did not kill RC planes. They opened that hobby up to more people. The same is true for model railroading.
Kids do not build their own video games. They are RTR
Those of you who are worried about the hobby should be building modules (like I do) to introduce more people to it. The club exposes thousands of people to the hobby every year at various shows.
Cackling about it like hens on a forum improves nothing.
I think people claiming the death of the hobby now will be dead long before model trains are gone.
I personally don't think the hobby is dying but I do feel it is changing. My nephew was bit by the model railroading bug at the age of 3 when I had to bring my trains home from my mothers house after her basement flooded. Thankfully nothing important was lost, all he wanted to do was put some track together and push a train on the track. So to protect my investment I bought him his first starter set and last Christmas he got his first articulated engine a Mantua 2-6-6-2. Now that I am finished with college I started construction on my version of MR's Virginian layout and everyday he wants to go to the basement to work on the trains. I have created a monster but that's OK One aspect that I think will be changing though is with narrow gauge, I would love to start modeling narrow gauge but the cost is outrageous with engines between $300 - $500 each and rolling stock from $50 plus I feel it is keeping many like myself from being able to afford it.
The hobby is dying. Look at any picture of a model railroading gathering.
The guys in the pictures are the young guys from thirty years ago.