maxman tomcatALL WE CAN DO IS PREY I GUESS Did you want to re-phrase this?
tomcatALL WE CAN DO IS PREY I GUESS
Did you want to re-phrase this?
I think it is about time that this thread be put to rest...it has been an interesting one at that...so on that note...locked...
Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry
I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...
http://modeltrainswithmusic.blogspot.ca/
Soo Line fan Higher prices by fewer companies targeted to a shrinking customer base. A perfect business model if ever their was one.
Higher prices by fewer companies targeted to a shrinking customer base. A perfect business model if ever their was one.
There are no FACTS that support your statement. Prices are not high after adjusting for inflation, and there is no evidence there are fewer customers. In fact, the larger production runs needed to maintain over seas production and current pricing suggest both the opposite on both counts.
Sheldon
IRONROOSTER This year celebrates 47 years of the hobby dying. 1966, when A.C. Gilbert stopped producing American Flyer, marks the Official beginning of the hobby dying. It is expected that the hobby will continue to die for at least another 50 years. Paul
This year celebrates 47 years of the hobby dying. 1966, when A.C. Gilbert stopped producing American Flyer, marks the Official beginning of the hobby dying.
It is expected that the hobby will continue to die for at least another 50 years.
Paul
After scanning through 11 plus pages of hand wringing, I'll just say to this last post ... tooche!!!!
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
SMH
I really believe the problem we have in getting the younger generattion intrested in modelling, we need to concentrate more on modelling things that are closer to the current generation,
EG, A layout that has more rellevant buildings, KFC, McDonalds Nightclubs ,Parks that they can relate to>
They need to see more modern day cars and trucks and things , Maybe as much we modelling on a certain era ,I think it then becomes more a history lesson for them rather than an enjoyable hobby they would like to begin themselves.
We have a large non prototypical layout , while it was constructed after considering all of the above ,We have found that the younger generation have really enjoyed our layout , We even have some young folk offer to scratch build some more MODERN day buildings to put on our layout,We have catered on our layout for people of all age groups and modellers, having your coal yard , freight houses, coal mine and a childrens interactive section as well as your modern day things.
ALL WE CAN DO IS PREY I GUESS
Boy oh boy, this is the best posting so far! Not too many messages make me burst out laughing, but this one is a gem. It contains more concise wisdom than anything coming from some of the pompous "experts" that have thrown in their "expertise". Great posting!
Benny Peters
You never see TV commercials advertising Model Railroad products. This might be a way to get the young kids into the hobby. I never even thought of model railroading as a hobby until my son came home with a copy of Model Railroader that ex forum member TA462 donated to his school.
Jim
I agree that things are different now then they were before. Technology and the economy changes people. I remember when you can afford to take a family a five to a ball game for cheap money, its hard to do that now. I miss the days of the drive in movie , $10 for a car load and you get to watch 2 or 3 movies. Those days are long gone. The new generation is much more influenced by what they see on tv. You don't see much about trains on television, but you see a lot of things getting blown up ect..ect...ect.. For the people who are into model railroading I think the emphasis on detail nowadays is incredible and with DCC I see more leaning towards operations then ever before.
HaroldA Let me weigh in with a few comments which are sure to irritate a few folks so I apologize in advance.
Let me weigh in with a few comments which are sure to irritate a few folks so I apologize in advance.
No need to apologize. In my opinion, you are absolutely correct in every respect.
Rich
Alton Junction
Should it go the way of all flesh there will be a number of reasons, many of which have already been mentioned. I continue to be stunned by the ever increasing cost of even basic products. Something as simple as plaster cloth goes up, at least around here, almost on a monthly basis. The LHS is disappearing and, at least the one remaining here in my area does nothing to promote the hobby and the 'train guy' is so disagreeable that I refuse to deal with him anymore. We have whole product lines that have been around for years - Floquil might be the latest - and they are gone. Also, from time to time we have shortages of simple items like flex track. These are just frustrations that don't seem to be apparent with other kinds of hobbies such as sports. Younger generations, unless they have been exposed to the hobby, are more interested in Xbox 360 and PlayStation than they are in model trains. And I recall a discussion in this forum a few months ago where some of my esteemed colleagues said they had no responsibility to introduce young people to the hobby or even have them visit home layouts. The school systems, at least in my area, have taken over the family and if a kid is in sports, there is hardly any time left for family activities let alone a hobby that is looked as 'just something else to do.' Many parents today over schedule their kids and, frankly, live vicariously through them and the kid has little downtime.
The reality is that the people who built the hobby - the WW2 generation and baby boomers - are dying off and we have raised a new generation of people who aren't 'joiners.' This generation doesn't join churches, civic or fraternal organizations, service clubs, VFW posts - all of which are in decline and in my area some have closed altogether. So in many people there is little desire on incentive to join a railroad club when there are so many other choices to be made.
We are in decline for many reasons and we as modelers also bear some of the responsibility. Will it go extinct - probably not. Model railroading will continue for many years to come and there will always be people involved. However, it will be become an elite hobby - much like golf - where only a few can afford the equipment and it will become one of many choices in which people can participate.
Call this my
There's never time to do it right, but always time to do it over.....
I find all the derogatory comments about the Internet sort of funny, because I have found that the Internet has opened my mind to entirely new hobbies and interests that I would have otherwise never explored. I'm a much better photographer thanks to the daily inspiration I get from my Flickr feed and discussions of equipment and techniques from many sources. I can make better purchasing decisions, and find I'm spending much more than I was previously, but the results are much, much better. I've even developed an interest in time-lapse night photography, a skill I intend to develop thanks to people with amazing talent who are willing to share not only their work but their experience. My computer and Internet skills have helped me in my professional development as well.
As for model railroading, when I can read about something other than the lack of blue box kits or how everything costs too much, I find modelers who are hands down the best I've even seen. They're out there doing their thing and are not concerned with what kids are doing with their spare time or if other people will be doing this 50 years from now.
And many of them are not spending a lot of money, either
zugmann Did video kill the radio star?
Did video kill the radio star?
I am getting back into the hobby after being out of modeling for 22 years. What I see is a hobby that is as strong, or stronger, than it was in the 1970s and '80s when I was heavily into it before.
First off, I have to say that this has been one of the most civil, entertaining threads I've read in eons. Thanks to all of you for your contributions. I've learned things.
Second, check those 2 guys out grinning into the camera a few pages ago. That's your future and it's gonna be good. Everytime I think we're going to the birds here in this crazy world, I see a video on YouTube with some of those same young guys and gals doing wicked good stuff with CNC's, old motorcycles, steam trains and you name it. They got it handled. Really. In fact, when I think about it, only a few years ago (it seems!) that was me. Just another young punk that thought he had it figured. Some of the stuff I did, some I didn't. These folks will carry on model railroading with new ideas and new enthusiasm.
I'm 60, and what I model is based on what I've loved since I was a kid. My hero is Frank Ellison and he influences my modeling goals. But what I love about this hobby is it's diversity.
Anyway, heckava good thread, and as the Queen says "Keep calm and carry on".
Lou
Stayed away from this until now, and have only read a little of it.
I can't say I care where the hobby is going anymore, I'm only really interested in the model railroad above my 6 car garage. And I have most of the locos, bits, pieces, rolling stock, control system, etc, etc, etc that I need to complete it. And I'm sure whatever else I need I will come up with somewhere, some how.
But I will offer just a few thoughts:
Cost - anyone who thinks the hobby is more expensive now than any time in the past needs a course in economics - and this is not the place for me or anyone to try to teach economics - I've tried before, nobody listened.
Exposure - maybe, maybe not. I saw very few real trains as a child, and only rode a few real trains as a child. So much for that theory. I did grow up with model trains in the house - not toy trains, not LIONEL, never had a LIONEL or other tinplate/highrail type train in my life until I bought one for my son. I have no interest in highrail or toy trains today - including HO toy trains with smoke or tinny sound, or over sized details to make them "rough handling friendly".
Trends - been at this hobby 43 years, worked in this hobby as a teen and young adult - it has changed, some for the good, some not in my view. But was has happened is, it is more diverse, and attracts more different "types" of people than it did years ago. That's why it is hard to get any kind of consensus on this or any forum.
Today "modelers", who maybe should be called "hobbyist's", come in all sorts of sub set interest groups, skill levels and pocketbooks. That effects thier view of the hobby. Far too many of "us" still think everyone else with a model train views the hobby the way we do - guess what? They don't.
So I'm done now, off to build my model railroad, without sound, from a combination of RTR, shake the box, and craftsman kits. With no sound in my locos, but working signals and CTC, wireless control, but with DC, very light on weathering, with lots of freelanced passenger cars only 72' long.
And the rest of you are welcome to go in whatever direction your skills, wallet and desires will take you.
Just saw this, didn't read the posts. Great question after the problems I've been through trying to sell off some of my Dad's stuff from his estate. In the last few years from what all the "guys in the know" tell me the buyers of MRR equipment are shrinking--not a huge surprise--but it seems to be getting down to bone.
Anyway, from experience a lot of it is on the current modelers to pass it down if they want to. My son and some of his friends enjoy MRRing. But, they were exposed and supported--he's 15. To be more specific, I don't see the problem with the teenagers as much as their parents. That generation seems to be more interested in other entertainment options and it cascades down. They also don't want to spend much time building anything.
Richard
zstripe There go's that word again,,,''Exposure'', I said that in the very beginning,,,Plays a key part in life,,not only in hobbies,,,,but almost everything that we learn in life,,,,,,,walking,talking,,,you name it.... Cheers, Frank
There go's that word again,,,''Exposure'', I said that in the very beginning,,,Plays a key part in life,,not only in hobbies,,,,but almost everything that we learn in life,,,,,,,walking,talking,,,you name it....
Cheers,
Frank
On the topic of exposure there's one point we've all missed. Commuter Rail is making a comeback. I grew up Long Island. Most people commuted into New York City on the Long Island Rail Road. If you wanted to go into the city for fun, you'd take the old LI double R. Me and most of my friends rode the train on a fairly regular basis. I'm sure this got more than a few interested in trains.
In the 1990s when I was growing up most cities didn't have commuter rail. It was pretty much limited to New York, Chicago and San Francisco. But since then cities like Los Angeles, Nashville, Salt Lake City, Albuquerque, Seattle, Miami and Dallas-Fort Worth have built commuter rail systems. Other cities are build light rail systems. This puts trains back into people's daily lives and gives kids more opportunities to not only see but ride trains. In terms of exposure, a chance to take a train ride can't be beaten.
Modeling the Pennsylvania Railroad in N Scale.
www.prr-nscale.blogspot.com
I think exposure to real trains is very important. My grandson wasn't interested in my layout until he got to see UP 3985 a few years ago. Since then he's loves running trains, and watches Chuggington, Thomas, and Choo-choo Bob. He also has the wooden trains and likes doing things with them.
richhotrain So, the future of model railroading as a hobby is much more dependent on those kids born in the 1970s and 1980s and even into the 1990s when most kids did not receive electric train sets for Christmas. I gotta believe that fewer of those kids, as adults today, participate actively in the model railroad hobby. Fast forward to kids born since the turn of the century, the year 2000 and beyond, and very, very few of them are into model railroading.
True, electric train sets were less common, but those in 90's had a new toy: the Thomas wooden railway. While I agree with you that the hobby will likely lose membership, Thomas is bringing at least some kids onboard. Just look at the crowds for the "Day out with Thomas" excursions on many tourist lines.
Also, Whittle offers an in between step: http://shop.woodentrain.com/main.sc
Less not forget kids now days can be exposed to railroading at younger ages. Brio, Thomas the Tank Engines, and lego train toys. Thomas the Tank Engine and Chuggington tv programs. And almost every channel shows a RR commercial now a days. My dad did have O scale trains which I saw at Christmas and I saw my grandparents layout when I went to MA and FL once a year, but that was my exposure to trains until about 10-11 years old. So not having the influence is doubtful as an excuse, but I believe they are playing with them younger and re visiting the hobby (seriously, or more active) once they get settled after college and grounded with a job. Similar to what they have always done, just the timeframes are offset. Just my 2 cents.
Being a model railroader and a kid from the video game era, also working at Circuit City and GameStop from 00-11 I can say kids definitely have money (or their parents money) to spend. When I joined the Air Force in 96 I saved to get an N64 a few games and a new BNSF C44-9W Athearn Blue box from Hobby Town. The two N64 games cost more than the engine at $79.99 ea. Many people forgot that Nintendo 1st party games cost that much but they did. I do not argue the fact the hobby is changing, some may be good, some may be bad depending on opinion. It may cost me more, but I can get more done in a shorter time frame now. That specific engine I may had to have a whole shopping list for and spend much time building I can have already built or slightly modified and can invest that time in something else. Costs are arguable, yes I would prefer them to be less, but heard the exact same argument when the last generation of systems came out, the current generation, and we will see on the future. And every year I was working we beat prior year sales for a decade. The gaming industry is changing, more online, but more people spend more money and participate in that hobby every year. Brick and mortar hobby shops have been hit hard, some may be the reduction of hobbyists, some may of been locations that could not adapt to the changing times, and I believe much has to do with the internet. I hear people complain all the time about lack of places to buy books, cd's, mom and pop shops... yet buy on Amazon the whole time. Every facet of shopping has changed, this isn't the first and last. Look at RR's in the late 60's and early 70's, with passenger planes and trucking knocking railroads into bankruptcy like crazy, I am sure at one point they could of predicted that it would be limited to nearly unit trains on very specific routes. The industry adapted and is in the most part profitable once again. Sorry didn't mean this to go on so long, but yes I am sick of paying $10 to eat lunch at work too!
I highly doubt model railroading will ever die (just like all model building, cars, boats, planes). Decline but not die. However, there are a number of challenges facing model railaroading. A major thing I suspect is people are more mobile these days. So, people may avoid collecting a bunch of stuff for all but a small layout. Also, I dont know if people build basements any more (there are very few basements around here). Or if they are, they are smaller or finished.
But I think where things are headed is in 3D printing. First there will be companies that will be able to print any part you want. You will see a new catagory on MRR: 3D printing (like the DCC catagory). On those forums people will share results and share 3D files for new figures and machinery. Eventually you will see home 3D printers that can print in detail. You will be able to buy downloads to say print your own D and SL 2-6-6-0 parts and then paint and assemble (or hire that done online).
Voyager No one has provided any "hard" evidence of the alleged decline of young people in the model railroad hobby. But let us assume it is true, given the various anecdotal comments that have been made in this discussion. In itself that trend doesn't equate with a decline of those engaged in the hobby. It may just mean that people take up the hobby later in life than was the case decades ago. And because the older segment of the U.S. population will be growing over the next two generations, those involved in the hobby may also grow. Keep in mind that the first baby boomer born in America turned 65 on Jan. 1, 2011, creating a wave of 79 million baby boomers who will be retiring over the next 20 years. If, as many have claimed, model railroaders are now dominated by the post 65 baby boomers, then the hobby could benefit financially from the involvement of the richest, most rapidly growing segment of the population. That should sustain it quite well over the next generation or so. And by then today's young will be much older and perhaps drawn into the hobby--albeit with less to spend on it than current hobbyists have.
I am going on 75 and have been actively interested in the hobby since I was about 10. I remain optimistic about the future of the hobby having heard numerous predictions of its demise since I was 10. Costs may seem high today compared to when "we" were young but when you adjust for the passage of time not so much. And the quality today is overall incredibly better than it was just ten years ago. Command control has really perked up the interest in model railroading nad made layout building incredibly easier (for the larger layouts).
Train shows and clubs are the heartbeat of the hobby today. LHS's are indeed few and far between. You will note that the ones that have survived have kept up with the technology and used the internet to their advantage. Our local club (the Olde Newburgh Model RR Club-albeit in Walden, NY) does at least 8 (and usually more) shows a year with our modular layouts and our experience has been that when one show "drops out" others take their place. Our club has a home layout and encourages junior members by a "no dues" policy (their parent must be a member) and mentoring the juniors on meeting night so that they feel included and welcome...as we try to do with any new members. We currently have 5 active junior members and as many have come and gone in the past 4 years. I feel clubs, both those with home layouts and modular only clubs) are the key to getting "juniors" involved in the hobby and I see a lot of juniors at shows with modular clubs...so I feel the future is going to be solid...my 2 cents worth.
BRAKIE Another good exposer for model railroading is you tube..There is thousands of model train videos plus Bachmann's videos explaining how to use their E-Z DCC system. IMHO the hobby's exposer to the general public hasn't been better.
Another good exposer for model railroading is you tube..There is thousands of model train videos plus Bachmann's videos explaining how to use their E-Z DCC system.
IMHO the hobby's exposer to the general public hasn't been better.
Couldn't agree more with regards YouTube. I have watched people install DCC decoders using decoders and locomotives that I am planing to use, program their NCE Power Cabs (the system I use), lay and ballast track, and give reviews of locomotives/rolling stock/ etc (heck I stumbled on a review of Bachmanns HO DCC & Sound Santa Fe F7A...liked it and then bought it!). It's a great resource in my humble opinion and bound to get more and more use.
Happy Modeling!
Don.
"Ladies and gentlemen, I have some good news and some bad news. The bad news is that both engines have failed, and we will be stuck here for some time. The good news is that you decided to take the train and not fly."
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
You are right, a place like Miniatur Wunderland and Northlanz would spark any persons interests to the hobby. I also think that people with layouts and model railroad clubs could make a collective effort to promote this hobby. People will always have a creative side and video games, social media and RTR RC toys will not encourage their creative side.
I think you nailed it on the head! The kids with their wooden trains are also seeing the cool things new electronics enable model trains to do (or, for that matter, model anything - just look at the extraordinary stuff Miniatur Wunderland does). There will always be a desire to see a solid model move in a way no virtual model on a computer screen can.
Where expansion lies is with the creative side of modeling, and (I think) largely in freelancing. If we encourage today's kids to imagine and build (as opposed to faithfully representing a slice of railroad history they can't relate to), then they will build.
Juan
russ_q4b It is by far the greatest hobby. I think there are plenty of young people out there who would enjoy building things with their hands. I feel the best way to keep this hobby going is the traditional local hobby shop. This hobby shop should have a display layout and staff who are knowledgeable about the hobby. There is not substitute to seeing an actual layout to inspire someone to build his empire. The staff at this hobby shop should be like a mentor to anyone entering the hobby. I do agree that the video games, internet and RC aircraft with video cameras could deter someone from this hobby. I also believe that creative promotion of this hobby can keep it going for several generations.
It is by far the greatest hobby. I think there are plenty of young people out there who would enjoy building things with their hands. I feel the best way to keep this hobby going is the traditional local hobby shop. This hobby shop should have a display layout and staff who are knowledgeable about the hobby. There is not substitute to seeing an actual layout to inspire someone to build his empire. The staff at this hobby shop should be like a mentor to anyone entering the hobby. I do agree that the video games, internet and RC aircraft with video cameras could deter someone from this hobby. I also believe that creative promotion of this hobby can keep it going for several generations.
Problem is the traditional local hobby shop is not financially viable anymore. If the hobby's survival is dependent on that, it is doomed.
- Mark
Russell,When I was attending Columbus,Ohio city schools back in the 60s one best not mention he liked trains unless he was a fast runner or ready to rumble..If you wasn't into cars or sports you was a "sissy".
The future of the hobby...
Meet Jason and Chad...http://nwprr.net/photo/jason-and-i
They're on a different social media outlet. Just because you don't see them hanging out with your crowd doesn't mean they are not there. Both these guys are really knowledgeable and schooling me on traction and other stuff about the Northwestern Pacific.
As for trends in video games. I don't think I was really clear with what is "trending" with video games. If you heard about Anki Drive you might understand what is being developed. There is a movement to make video games more tangible. They are using model cars and Artificial Intelligence to create a physical game space.
My impression, there are players interested in playing the game in a real physical tangible environment...then the computer has the roll of game keeper. I can really see this applied to a model railroad and social networking.
We run our trains and switch out cars on our layout spotting them to the switchlist generated by the computer. Add in Social networking where I can work with other friends that have a layout simulating supply (perhaps on their layout) and demand (on my layout) and the computer works out the shipping between our railroads virtually through the net. If we have the same car number, simulating the car traveling from the industry to offline staging for me, then for him, offline staging to the industry. Of course one could add more reality to "the game" that simulates miniature economics. Perhaps a group of small railroads could team up like the Genesee Wyoming collection of short lines and pool their resources. Something like that to me sounds incredibly fun and gives incentive to building a layout to participate in handing off carloads
Just my humble opinion
Lakethey lived it was not even any thing they cared about.
Russell
When I was growing up in the 1950's and 1960's I knew no one into model trains. Lots into autos.
As far as modeling went, ships, cars, airplanes, and space craft models were the big thing.
Then around junior high and high school if you were not on a sports team then it was, autos or being in a band!
So building plastic model ships and rockets, learning guitar then switching to bass was my big thing. Then in the mid 70's, I got some what interested in model trains. Not till 2007 did I really do any thing about it though.
I would guess that many here think, model trains were bigger then they were population wise, is because they were into them and noticed it. For others even if railroads were in and around where they lived it was not even any thing they cared about.
The future is safe!
My $2.00 worth.
Ken G Price My N-Scale Layout
Digitrax Super Empire Builder Radio System. South Valley Texas Railroad. SVTRR
N-Scale out west. 1996-1998 or so! UP, SP, Missouri Pacific, C&NW.
IRONROOSTERNot too say don't scratchbuild, there's a lot of satisfaction there, but Accurail cars and the Athearn/Roundhouse kits still available at train shows are the way to save money.
Another way is to buy use stuff..
I picked up 2 used Athearn CR GP40-2s for $15.00 each last week..In sort two fer the price of one.
Oh good!!
Let's start talkin' 'bout how the price of the hobby is so killing the hobby!!
Everything costs money people...get over it.
Brunton ... Fourth - People keep complaining about the cost, but this is one area that is very much under the individual's control. Don't want to pay $40 for an RTR boxcar? But an Accurail kit for under $10 and build it. Or get some supplies and scratchbuild one for only a couple bucks. Don't want to pay $200 for a diesel loco model? Don't! Get a cheap one and tweak it until it runs well. Or, as with the boxcar, scratchbuild one. But people insist on instant, expensive-to-achieve quality levels and then complain about the cost. The big problem is that those on limited budgets aren't presented with the alternatives - they just see the expense and choke. The model press is somewhat to blame for this bit... (when is the last time you saw a "Dollar Model" project in MR? How many don't even know what that is/was?)
...
Fourth - People keep complaining about the cost, but this is one area that is very much under the individual's control. Don't want to pay $40 for an RTR boxcar? But an Accurail kit for under $10 and build it. Or get some supplies and scratchbuild one for only a couple bucks. Don't want to pay $200 for a diesel loco model? Don't! Get a cheap one and tweak it until it runs well. Or, as with the boxcar, scratchbuild one. But people insist on instant, expensive-to-achieve quality levels and then complain about the cost. The big problem is that those on limited budgets aren't presented with the alternatives - they just see the expense and choke. The model press is somewhat to blame for this bit... (when is the last time you saw a "Dollar Model" project in MR? How many don't even know what that is/was?)
Prices have gone up since those dollar car models in the 50's. If you cost out scratchbuilding, you'll see that a couple of bucks won't do it any more. Also the details on those models probably aren't acceptable anymore - a boxcar I built called for a rail spike as the door handle and more spikes as the lower door guides.
Not too say don't scratchbuild, there's a lot of satisfaction there, but Accurail cars and the Athearn/Roundhouse kits still available at train shows are the way to save money. Of course metal wheels and Kadee couplers will bring the price up.
Enjoy
Hi all
Yes the hobby is dying but not in the sense that usually means.
We still have hobby shops just.
All I see are convenience model structures or as I derisively call them plonk and play buildings
lots of expensive DCC and no reasonable priced DC locos.
Oh and spare parts for your loco forget it.
Where are the kits and the building materials and expensive pre ballasted track instead of ordinary un-ballasted track good grief!!.
The Model is being taken out of the hobby.
So its turning into toy time instead of model railroading.
Fight this scourge to our hobby build a kit of make something from scratch kit bash put the model back in model railroading.
Even a plasticville kit with a bit of paint work and replacing that thin plastic glazing with something better can turn out a reasonable building.
Tell that shop asst where they can put there plonk and play toys.
I think I better stop now
Regards John
sh00fly I suggested a "game" approach simply to make a suggestion and offer a real solution rather then sit around idle, and stagnate over the "problem". But since you seem to challenge me by that....
I suggested a "game" approach simply to make a suggestion and offer a real solution rather then sit around idle, and stagnate over the "problem". But since you seem to challenge me by that....
Firstly, as my previous posts have mentioned, I don't see a problem as I believe younger modelers like youself and I will carry on where the seasoned Veterans have left off. I DO believe there will be less of us, but the hobby will be here.
Also, I wasn't throwing some "virtual" gauntlet down, but merely making a polite and vaild (in my humble opinion) observation. I also still stand by my assertion that physically playing baseball on a field with real live people is completely different then playing a baseball video game, the same (again, in my humble opinion...) as getting your hands onto physical model railroading equipment (wood, wires, hardware, kits, RTR, etc) and creating/operating/modeling/watching said model railroad versus having an electronic/game version of a model railroad. Yes, both share a common theme (model railroad), users share a common interest (trains or railroading), both share a common desire (design a functioning railroad), but both achieve their desired results in two very different and distinct ways and their "owners" have two very different ideas for how they want to utilize their model railroads (a.k.a what interests them). It also assumes that electronic/gaming only model railroaders would take the next step and venture out to buy the equipment necessary to physically construct their gaming version of their railroad. Or, is the idea one that suggests the evolution of model railroading is moving from a 4X8 sheet of plywood to a 30+" tv set? If so, then the hobby as we currently know it is indeed dying....which I do not believe. Using my baseball example, I would hazard a guess that the vast majority of MLB 2013 gamers don't own a baseball glove and may never have even played a real game of baseball since little league (or at all). Be that as it may, I am not...repeat...not...shooting your idea down whatsoever. I am merely attempting (and probably failing) to make the point that video gaming a model railroad would indeed add another facet for train enthusiasts to pursue (for those so inclined), but that a video game is an entirely different entity then constructing a more traditional model railroad as the majority of those on this site currently do.
But, as I mentioned earlier, this is a BIG hobby and there is lots of room for everyone of all ages. Everyone's ideas, thoughts, opinions, and experiences are welcome...to me at least. If I have a problem and you have a solution that will help, I couldn't care less how young or old you are...I am just glad for the help! It's all good .
Have a great day all!
Burlington Northern #24 I see Jeff, my apologies Brakie. Chris I agree.
I see Jeff, my apologies Brakie.
Chris I agree.
Gary,No apologies needed my friend.
BrianinBuffalo Burlington Northern #24 I'm younger than you by 10 years, but I agree GP9man! removed portions of post. Hand painted, can't RTR that. this loco took 6-8 hours combined from 2 days of working on it. Number boards, as well as exterior details all of which are not yet applied. just give me a bit so I can get an F3A then I'll paint up an SP&S #802. Good Work Gary! I am too chicken to paint N scale stuff.
Burlington Northern #24 I'm younger than you by 10 years, but I agree GP9man! removed portions of post. Hand painted, can't RTR that. this loco took 6-8 hours combined from 2 days of working on it. Number boards, as well as exterior details all of which are not yet applied. just give me a bit so I can get an F3A then I'll paint up an SP&S #802.
I'm younger than you by 10 years, but I agree GP9man! removed portions of post.
Hand painted, can't RTR that. this loco took 6-8 hours combined from 2 days of working on it.
Number boards, as well as exterior details all of which are not yet applied. just give me a bit so I can get an F3A then I'll paint up an SP&S #802.
Very nice work!
Okay I was out of line with my post last night. Sorry guys.
now, have the cows come home yet or can we keep arguing?
BruntonThird - and this is strictly my opinion, now - buying a whole bunch of RTR stuff and slapping it onto some sort of benchwork is not Model Railroading. It is miniature railroading, but what part is the modeling?
Mark,I suspect the modeling comes in the scenery..Looking at the museum quality scenery and structures on some layouts that shows some of the (if you will) "modern" modeling.
My dad's generation of modelers spent hours at the work bench assembling locomotive and wooden car kits.I was in the so called "easy" generation where we built plastic car kits and added handrails and detail to Athearn locomotives.
The young modelers today buys highly detailed RTR cars and locomotives and builds high quality layouts.
Sounds like advancement to me..
Of course as I mention several times before my modeling style is straight from a 60 era modeling manual. Crude but fun..
I read the first couple pages, then jumped right to posting, so if I'm repeating what someone else has said, sorry.
First - Until manufacturing and selling kits becomes less profitable than RTR, you won't see a wholesale return of kits. When a kit sells for $10 and costs the mfg $5, and an RTR version of the same thing sells for $40 and costs the mfg $10, which do you think they're gonna do? $5 profit per item vs. $30 profit. Until they're convinced that they can sell more than 6 times the number of kits as they can RTR, there will be no return of kits (at least until the profit in RTR drops significantly). Note: $ are for illustration only.
Second - The hobby will survive. It may shrink. It will change. I suspect that it will go back to something like it was in the 1950-1970 timeframe (albeit higher-tech) as it shrinks and major manufacturers exit the marketplace - scratchbuilding will make a big comeback, and in fact will be a much more necessary part of the hobby than it has been for years.
Third - and this is strictly my opinion, now - buying a whole bunch of RTR stuff and slapping it onto some sort of benchwork is not Model Railroading. It is miniature railroading, but what part is the modeling? The still-growing preponderance of RTR is removing "modeling" from more and more facets of the hobby. (I'm a participant in this as well, in terms of motive power. My locos are almost completely RTR. They WILL be customized in the future, but right now they're stock. Most of my other stuff is a mix of kit and scratch).
Mark P.
Website: http://www.thecbandqinwyoming.comVideos: https://www.youtube.com/user/mabrunton
Aside from the cackling comments from one rude member and the pleas to return to model railroading from another more polite member, I see nothing wrong with this thread other than the fact that the subject is repetitive.
But what I find most amusing is the sense of denial that some have about the future of the hobby.
Why is it so hard to believe or to accept the fact that the hobby is dying along with the aging of the model railroading population?
Sure, it will never go away. And, sure, there are young people entering the hobby today. But, like playing marbles, collecting stamps, and building plastic model planes, ships, and planes, the model railroading hobby is just another phenomenom that really seemed to catch fire in the post-WWII years.
It probably has already passed the high point as the octogenarians pass away.
richhotrain Oh boy, here we go again ! What the heck. I will offer my . The model railroad hobby is on its way to extinction. Cost is one thing, and it sure is an expensive hobby. But, it is not cost that will bring it down. It will be lack of interest. Today's kids don't grow up with an electric train set. The fascination that gripped the kids born between 1930 and 1960 does not exist, at least on the same scale (no pun intended), for kids born between 1970 and 2000. And why should it? Their area of fascination is are different one with video games and computer games and the like. The kids born between 1930 and 1960 are growing old and dying off. Some of them have enough money and time to buy what they want so the hobby can still be sustained a while longer. But it is doomed, make no mistake about it. Will it disappear entirely? Probably not. But, it will eventually be a much smaller niche market than it is today. Rich
Oh boy, here we go again !
What the heck. I will offer my .
The model railroad hobby is on its way to extinction.
Cost is one thing, and it sure is an expensive hobby. But, it is not cost that will bring it down. It will be lack of interest. Today's kids don't grow up with an electric train set. The fascination that gripped the kids born between 1930 and 1960 does not exist, at least on the same scale (no pun intended), for kids born between 1970 and 2000. And why should it? Their area of fascination is are different one with video games and computer games and the like.
The kids born between 1930 and 1960 are growing old and dying off. Some of them have enough money and time to buy what they want so the hobby can still be sustained a while longer. But it is doomed, make no mistake about it. Will it disappear entirely? Probably not. But, it will eventually be a much smaller niche market than it is today.
Whenever I complete a project on my layout, I email pictures, descriptions, etc. to friends and family. As a result my middle granddaughter is gaga over trains. So, for Christmas last year, I bought her a trainset. Her dad, my son, has set it up on a table so she car run trains. This Christmas, I'm getting her a couple of simple building kits that, she, with dad's help can put together to put on her "layout". I live in a small town and members of my church have visited my layout, bringing their kids and grandkids to see it. Exposure is one way that many modelers got their start.
Marlon
See pictures of the Clinton-Golden Valley RR
Hello,
It all depends on how you define model railroading. Liking trains is an incredibly multifaceted hobby. The Thomas generation will be different from the Lionel generation. I see rapid prototyping and 3D printing becoming more prevalent, this giving us incredible new modeling opportunities. Also, recent computer programs allow one to build a layout virtually at a fraction of the cost. We are in a major recession, and plenty of people who would like to model don't have the funds available now, particularly those just starting a family. Trains as a hobby isn't going away, but changing. Remember, tinplate trains were once the norm. Change is constant, whether good or bad.
EMD.Don sh00fly ...Guys, c'mon! Let the Norman Rockwell image of a dad puffing on his pipe, showing his son how to build a boxcar go! Times have changed, but interest in trains is still there. If you want to truly support and persuade the younger generation to look into and possibly become interested in model trains, present it to them as something they can relate to. Turn model railroading into a game... Strange, I consider myself a younger model railroader and I do sit down with my Son and build the old Athearn rolling stock kits as well as buildings for our layout (sans the pipe though...). We both enjoy that and he is developing hobby and fine motor skills...and his skills have improved. Call it "old school" if you want to but it's something that we both enjoy in this hobby and I personally am not about to "let that go". I am sure that I am not alone in this and that other Dad's/Mother's do similar things with their children (grandchildren) in this or other hobbies. I value that time together.
sh00fly ...Guys, c'mon! Let the Norman Rockwell image of a dad puffing on his pipe, showing his son how to build a boxcar go! Times have changed, but interest in trains is still there. If you want to truly support and persuade the younger generation to look into and possibly become interested in model trains, present it to them as something they can relate to. Turn model railroading into a game...
...Guys, c'mon! Let the Norman Rockwell image of a dad puffing on his pipe, showing his son how to build a boxcar go! Times have changed, but interest in trains is still there.
If you want to truly support and persuade the younger generation to look into and possibly become interested in model trains, present it to them as something they can relate to. Turn model railroading into a game...
Strange, I consider myself a younger model railroader and I do sit down with my Son and build the old Athearn rolling stock kits as well as buildings for our layout (sans the pipe though...). We both enjoy that and he is developing hobby and fine motor skills...and his skills have improved. Call it "old school" if you want to but it's something that we both enjoy in this hobby and I personally am not about to "let that go". I am sure that I am not alone in this and that other Dad's/Mother's do similar things with their children (grandchildren) in this or other hobbies. I value that time together.
That's great you do that, but not all kids get to discover model trains with dad, especially in single parent households. I didn't learn to love model trains from my dad, he has no interest in it at all...my exposure came from a friend and we kind of enjoyed it together. I'm sure there are a lot more cases of such, then there have been in the past.
EMD.DonAs far as turning model railroading into a game goes, if that works for you then have it. Design one and market it and see where it takes you. I guess I see them (actually physically building a layout with your own two hands vs. video game/computer layout) as two very different train interests, much as playing baseball on an actual field with other real live people is far different then playing baseball on a video game system. Besides, if it's the game that they become interested in then it really doesn't help the physical hobby of constructing a model railroad from actual materials. It just feeds more into the gaming aspect. But, whatever keeps your wheels on the rails .
I suggested a "game" approach simply to make a suggestion and offer a real solution rather then sit around idle, and stagnate over the "problem". But since you seem to challenge me by that. I probably will go research some things JMRI is doing and see about building a timesaver to game a few others online. Perhaps that experience will better equip me for exposing facets of the hobby others pass by, due to it being more "technical".
I see a lot of merit in using the payoff of being able to play the game to stimulate the challenge of physically laying track in an arrangement. Critically examine what has been built and find ways to imagine a more efficient system that helps success in the "game"
I don't see the game and building a layout two separate things. Dave Barrow builds his layout specifically for operation. The arts and craft side is minimal. He essentially is setting up his board game to be operated and challenge those that do. John Allen created the timesaver to be a game and to make running trains a little more engaging. I heard Tony Koester, Allen McClelland, and Steve King used to interchange cars between their layouts...to me this sounds like an early social game. Why not expand it electronically to the internet? Talk to anyone in the OPSIG about operation and they think of it like a game. So what is the difference if someone does the same thing and hires operators and partners up with other model railroad layouts across the country through the net to keep things interesting.
Once involved in the game of operations someone discovers the interest in the arts and crafts side of things. Who's to say that's invalid. Do we need to learn about trains from only dad? No, but it sure would be more fun to have some interaction from piers and develop some mentors. Use and integrate social networking to expand interaction and make running trains a little more engaging. Virtually interchange cars with Dave Barrow and mimic a supply and demand scenario. Short story long...YES! I could design and market this. What needs to be developed really? The technology is all there now...just a matter of sending an interchange list in facebook to a friend. If there's a better idea to engage people that are more interested in games...let me know!
EMD.DonI don't know why there is this undertone of us vs them, young vs old. I like trains...and I believe the majority of folks here like trains too. You like what you like and I will like what I like. There is room for everyone and if I can learn something new from a fellow model railroader that I can apply to my layout, I really don't care how old that person is...8 or 80. Pretty simple to me.
I agree Don, us vs. them happens from stereotypes and they need to be deleted from this hobby. Let's keep it about trains and not assume things about an entire generation. No need to alienate the people we're all trying to interest.
cedarwoodronThe lack of, what educators refer to as "kinesthetic" interest ( desire to learn using a hands-on approach) is very apparent to me as an industrial arts HS teacher. Every year, I survey incoming 9th graders in my classes about hobbies and interests they have and each year, fewer and fewer list anything that involves patience, manual skill sets or basic engineering-related focus. Sure, there are a few tool users in every class, but beyond that, the closest it gets is the kid who builds his own gaming computer. Some may have played with Legos or Thomas the Tank engine as small children, but most have no apparent interest in hobbies such as ours. Take a look at toys and hobbies in any metro CraigsList and see how many "train layouts" of Thomas are being offered each month. That this is a reflection of changing times is a given, but turning back the clock and reinvigorating interest in model railroading among more than a few kids would require a massive sociocultural change that does not appear on the horizon. The cost factor, despite the comparative economics some have demonstrated regarding price equivalence (1970 versus 2013) is still a significant issue for them, when they get immediate gratification by downloading a new game app in seconds for X dollars that they can recalibrate, share with friends, etc quickly, why spend money on a "fixed" entity such as a model railroad that requires more effort to get up and running, and most importantly, which offers no variance in operational characteristics without further investment of money and time. Perhaps ours is a momentary pleasure, when viewed across decades. It seems that playing cards and chess have greater durability in that context. Cedarwoodron
Perhaps the sociocultural challenge is up to us to learn about whom we want to teach and to develop a stimulating curriculum that is relevant and engaging. Being a young modeler taught many many many valuable life skills, the ability and confidence in using your hands and be able to fix things yourself is an amazing skill. One that is like you say, becoming rather rare, yet worthy of developing.
This doesn't mean death of the hobby, we as a group that want to move the hobby forward are faced with a challenge. As part of a society that has a history of rising to challenges, this is not impossible. One that will certainly expand ourselves, and it may be difficult. Usually the difficult challenges are the ones most worthy of assuming and the ones most rewarding in the outcome.
Chris Palomarez
SP&S modeler, 1960's give or take a decade or two for some equipment.
http://www.youtube.com/user/SGTDUPREY?feature=guide
Gary DuPrey
N scale model railroader
I think some of you...you know who you are...may want to cool some of the rhetoric down a little about who is a craftsman or not...
Use the phrase...some but not all...in place the ---------- hobbyist and et cetera....it will help keep the sanity a little...
Burlington Northern #24 Tracklayer Like a lot of other members have said, I don't think that the hobby will ever die completely but it won't ever be what it was in its hay day before the electronics boom and computers, the internet and video games came out. The young people of today not only find such a hobby to be totally boring but they also don't have the basic arts and crafts skills to build even the simplest layout. They grew up playing video games and are used to fast paced and exciting entertainment which model railroading isn't. However, I think there will probably always be a small percentage of people that will want to "mess with electric trains" as my nephew puts it for many years to come. The problem is that with the decline of business the locomotive and rolling stock producing companies will close their doors and the items that we now own and use will become very expensive and sought after antiques decades from now that will be in high demand. Too bad most of us won't be around to enjoy the profits... Tracklayer oh, that's a lovely opinion that's already been disproved. Can we get off the "younger modelers have no idea what they're doing" stuff. I play my xbox 360 a couple hours a week if that, I've gone airsofting a couple times for an hour or two. Once I get the lumber and foam for my layout much more time will be spent doing that. Buuuut it's cool if those of you who base your opinions upon the stereotypes just want to keep pushing younger generations away, ultimately ensuring the demise of model railroading as the remaining few of us "young artistically and craft deficient" will be the last of it when we kick the bucket.
Tracklayer Like a lot of other members have said, I don't think that the hobby will ever die completely but it won't ever be what it was in its hay day before the electronics boom and computers, the internet and video games came out. The young people of today not only find such a hobby to be totally boring but they also don't have the basic arts and crafts skills to build even the simplest layout. They grew up playing video games and are used to fast paced and exciting entertainment which model railroading isn't. However, I think there will probably always be a small percentage of people that will want to "mess with electric trains" as my nephew puts it for many years to come. The problem is that with the decline of business the locomotive and rolling stock producing companies will close their doors and the items that we now own and use will become very expensive and sought after antiques decades from now that will be in high demand. Too bad most of us won't be around to enjoy the profits... Tracklayer
Like a lot of other members have said, I don't think that the hobby will ever die completely but it won't ever be what it was in its hay day before the electronics boom and computers, the internet and video games came out. The young people of today not only find such a hobby to be totally boring but they also don't have the basic arts and crafts skills to build even the simplest layout. They grew up playing video games and are used to fast paced and exciting entertainment which model railroading isn't. However, I think there will probably always be a small percentage of people that will want to "mess with electric trains" as my nephew puts it for many years to come. The problem is that with the decline of business the locomotive and rolling stock producing companies will close their doors and the items that we now own and use will become very expensive and sought after antiques decades from now that will be in high demand. Too bad most of us won't be around to enjoy the profits...
Tracklayer
Burlington, I agree with you 150%. As a younger modeler I'm really starting to get tired of the stereotypes too. I'm 29 years old and I...
...hand painted, lettered and weathered this Minitrix pacific.
I also made the painted-on sign on this building:
And I also scratch built this model of the suspension bridge over Raven Cliff Falls:
Not bad for a young person who doesn't have basic arts and crafts skills.
The hobby is going wherever it wants to. This is just a lot of, blah, blah,blah. Lets get back to model railroading.
If you ever fall over in public, pick yourself up and say “sorry it’s been a while since I inhabited a body.” And just walk away.
The Hobby is dying!
Alert the media, the hobby is dying!!
Easy now chicken littles, the hobby is not dying.
Evolving yes, adapting yes, changing yes, dying no .
Yes, the days of the 2 dollar kit are gone, but so is a gallon of gas for .53 cents, along with a .25 cent pack of smokes.
I don't hear you screaming that cars are dying. No we adapt.
Gas now costs 7 times what it did when I started driving (1977). An Athearn car kit was 2 bucks. Multiply that by 7 and what will that get you? An even better looking Athearn car that some little Chinese kid put together for you, faster than your big old paws could rerail it. Where is the down side here?? Looks like evolution to me.
As far as the youth in the hobby, I have to agree with those who can see the kids at the train shows. Every time I go to a train show I am amazed at how many kids there are. Thomas and Chuggington station have whet their appetites, but don't be dismayed when as teenagers, they turn away because of other "distractions". Girls and a certain Ford Mustang drew me away, but as soon as I became a father,,I started planning my reentry into the hobby. Its funny, now that I see our oldest son in the same situation. Evolution again.
It may not get back to it's "golden age" in number of hobbyists, but I feel we are in a "golden age" of it's own. Rolling stock and locos have never been more realistic, varied, or smooth running as they are right now. With DCC and computer integration there are more facets of running a train than ever vs the old 12 volt power pack with a rheostat. Ooops,, there goes that evolution again.
Someone mentioned that the companies that make equipment are dying out, and someday our common stuff would be rare and valuable. Have you noticed, yes some companies may be gone, but others are filling the voids with highly detailed cars and engines. But no,,thats evolution again!
Hey Chicken Little, the hobby is going to outlive all of us. So stop squawking so much, you're starting to sound like Barney the Dinosaur.
Karl
NCE über alles!
As far as turning model railroading into a game goes, if that works for you then have it. Design one and market it and see where it takes you. I guess I see them (actually physically building a layout with your own two hands vs. video game/computer layout) as two very different train interests, much as playing baseball on an actual field with other real live people is far different then playing baseball on a video game system. Besides, if it's the game that they become interested in then it really doesn't help the physical hobby of constructing a model railroad from actual materials. It just feeds more into the gaming aspect. But, whatever keeps your wheels on the rails .
I don't know why there is this undertone of us vs them, young vs old. I like trains...and I believe the majority of folks here like trains too. You like what you like and I will like what I like. There is room for everyone and if I can learn something new from a fellow model railroader that I can apply to my layout, I really don't care how old that person is...8 or 80. Pretty simple to me.
LMAO!
OK, wow...Well back to brio then right?!
No arts or crafts skill determines if someone can claim to be a model rairoader...but then, who would want to because trains are so boring right?
Guys, c'mon! Let the Norman Rockwell image of a dad puffing on his pipe, showing his son how to build a boxcar go! Times have changed, but interest in trains is still there.
If you want to truly support and persuade the younger generation to look into and possibly become interested in model trains, present it to them as something they can relate to. Turn model railroading into a game. One doesn't need art and crafts skills to play it. Hook it up to a computer and turn running a railroad something can do like farmville on facebook. Make running model trains work with social media...then tell me how the hobby is "doomed"
Right, because electronics and computers have no place in today's model railroading?
I really don't care that much if model RRing lasts or not. If it doesn't, I'll find a new way to waste my time and money. It is just a hobby...
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
Burlington Northern #24 BRAKIE I can't really tell if this is serious or sarcasm. I think it's serious, but I'm not sure. -------------------------------------------------- I'm serious.Make no mistake about that. I'm probably among the first to defend (is that the right word?) a young modeler,a new modeler or a modeler with little skills..I never like belittling and never will.. Ok, sorry brakie. I wasn't sure, I thank you for doing that.
BRAKIE I can't really tell if this is serious or sarcasm. I think it's serious, but I'm not sure. -------------------------------------------------- I'm serious.Make no mistake about that. I'm probably among the first to defend (is that the right word?) a young modeler,a new modeler or a modeler with little skills..I never like belittling and never will..
I can't really tell if this is serious or sarcasm. I think it's serious, but I'm not sure.
--------------------------------------------------
I'm serious.Make no mistake about that.
I'm probably among the first to defend (is that the right word?) a young modeler,a new modeler or a modeler with little skills..I never like belittling and never will..
Yeah, Larry. I thank you for doing the part I highlighted (since I am almost 52 years old and have been at this on and off since I was about 8). You always have made me feel welcome here.
What a great guy!
zugmann And despite what some people think, I don't see this hobby going anywhere. Maybe it is getting more expensive, especially for the better stuff, but that's all hobbies. That's all of life anymore, it seems. And I have no real interest in clubs, not only because of my work schedule, but most of them seem to want to model the transition era stuff. Not my cup of tea, nor do I want to sit around and listen to a bunch of (mostly) older folks talk about how everything, including modern railroading, sucks. Then they wonder why younger guys have no interest in joining?
And despite what some people think, I don't see this hobby going anywhere. Maybe it is getting more expensive, especially for the better stuff, but that's all hobbies. That's all of life anymore, it seems. And I have no real interest in clubs, not only because of my work schedule, but most of them seem to want to model the transition era stuff. Not my cup of tea, nor do I want to sit around and listen to a bunch of (mostly) older folks talk about how everything, including modern railroading, sucks. Then they wonder why younger guys have no interest in joining?
Tom, sounds like you got thrown into the same boat as I
Well there's always Free-mo and RPM...demographics are a bit younger and more open to modern railroads
-C
GP-9_Man11786As part of the younger generation of modelers, perhaps I can give a different perspective. I got involved in the hobby when I was 8 and my dad bought my brother and I a Bachmann HO starter set. My brother could car less but I thought trains were just the coolest things in the world ( no doubt contributing to my popularity in grade school). We have spoken about the demise of the LHS but I remember in the 1990s both KB Toys and Toys R Us both sold HO freight cars at reasonable prices ($3 a piece). That was very affordable and unfortunately has gone the way of the dodo bird. But my generation also grew up with Thomas the Tank Engine. I think Thomas helped spawn a new generation of model railroaders. Also, I don't think all is lost with the hobby. I volunteer at a local railroad museum. While a lot of our volunteers are baby boomers, there are also a fair amount who are my age and younger. We have a number of high school and middle school aged volunteers who are both modelers and railfans. In fact some of them are as young as 8. I don't think the hobby is dying, but rather undergoing drastic changes, some good and some bad.
But my generation also grew up with Thomas the Tank Engine. I think Thomas helped spawn a new generation of model railroaders.
Also, I don't think all is lost with the hobby. I volunteer at a local railroad museum. While a lot of our volunteers are baby boomers, there are also a fair amount who are my age and younger. We have a number of high school and middle school aged volunteers who are both modelers and railfans. In fact some of them are as young as 8. I don't think the hobby is dying, but rather undergoing drastic changes, some good and some bad.
It's good to get a fellow younger perspective.
There is so much FUD about the impending doom of the hobby...ABSOLUTE BULLOCKS!!!
What there happens to be is a failure of one generation to relate and understand the other. Let's face it, Baby boomers and Gen X, Y, Z, share very few points of relation other then perhaps a similar train interest. Even with a train interest, what younger modelers might enjoy out of railroading may be completely SOUTH of what the another generation enjoys.
Point blank, just because one generation own's their own house large enough for a permanent layout does not mean the younger generation can do this too. Different living arrangements force how we enjoy trains.
Just because there aren't young people involved in your club or group doesn't mean there aren't any Jr. modelers out there. Young modelers tend to associate with other young modelers or are using the internet and social media (facebook groups, twitter, youtube, forums, blogs) to find like minded modelers that can communicate at a different level. This is very foreign to many of you that are used to walking into a hobby shop and being physically introduced to people. I understand it may seem weird to be introduced to people over the net, but it's how I have been introduced to a great many other modelers and became friends due to this new world interaction. I can interact with people all over the world vs. being limited to the social group at the local hobby shop, if you are lucky enough to have one in your area.
So if the perception is the young modelers like video games, why hasn't anyone approached young modelers and introduced it as a game? The game market is huge (and related build it yourself game models). I see potential for a rebirth of the "Timesaver" head to head switching challenge where you can compete with other players through the internet. The DCC technology is there and a small switching layout as such could be built by anyone that wanted to play. ANKI Drive is a game where players over the computer and net control actual physical car models racing in real time. I definitely see a chance for Model Railroading to capture this and even incorporate the upcoming technology. How about a Railroad Tycoon type game where you compete your physical layout against other physical layouts in a game of supply and demand. When you expand your physical layout system, it would effect your potential to create more revenue.
I sure would like to see this dogma of young people of having no patience or ability to build real tangible things to be DROPPED...it's BULLOCKS!!! and it's a tired stereotype placed onto a generation by an older one that could try to do more to understand them. Chuggington and Thomas has generated more captivated young minds interested in trains recently then ever.
Hey, would YOU want to join a group of people where the older group stereotyped you for not having any patience or ability and was claiming your hobby was going to die?!
No thanks, I'd go make my own group. It may be on Facebook, and you may never see it from your basement, but it's still there.
tatans ....I attended a train show recently and am amazed at what MR's buy, so---- if these few MR's still buy 5 times the amount of "stuff" they can actually use and add it to the basement full of their other "stuff" the hobby is in good shape. (have YOU looked at all the RR stuff you have? --am I right?)
....I attended a train show recently and am amazed at what MR's buy, so---- if these few MR's still buy 5 times the amount of "stuff" they can actually use and add it to the basement full of their other "stuff" the hobby is in good shape. (have YOU looked at all the RR stuff you have? --am I right?)
In 3 scales!!!
Yet, I am looking forward to the next train show in Timonium to add to the pile.
My REAL hobby is modeling a hobby shop 1:1.
blownout cylinderWhere any of you fightin' any Dini-o-saurs?...I think i recognize some of you did....
Dr. Frankendiesel aka Scott Running BearSpace Mouse for president!15 year veteran fire fighterCollector of Apple //e'sRunning Bear EnterprisesHistory Channel Club life member.beatus homo qui invenit sapientiam
MisterBeasleyhauling coal
jeffrey-wimberly BRAKIE BrianinBuffaloI walked to school uphill both ways, but I had shoes! You forgot the weather. And in the blowing snow and cold rain.And I was thankful. You rated snow? Man! Some people have all the luck! I had ankle deep mud!
BRAKIE BrianinBuffaloI walked to school uphill both ways, but I had shoes! You forgot the weather. And in the blowing snow and cold rain.And I was thankful.
BrianinBuffaloI walked to school uphill both ways, but I had shoes!
You forgot the weather.
And in the blowing snow and cold rain.And I was thankful.
Where any of you fightin' any Dini-o-saurs?...I think i recognize some of you did....
BRAKIEWhoa! How long has it been since you been trackside? I see locals every day and NS runs lots and lots of general freights as does CSX.
Hard to say where it is heading, I'm sure it will survive, I collected stamps for years and years and wondered what to do with the collection as no one seems to want it, I phoned a stamp dealer and he said just use up your mint stamps on mail and he hasn't bought a stamp in years, he also is going out of business as no new stamp collectors are coming on scene, he said my collection is probably worth nothing except a few early valuable stamps, I can't even give the stamps away, so we have to live with the changes. BUT, one consolation is : I attended a train show recently and am amazed at what MR's buy, so---- if these few MR's still buy 5 times the amount of "stuff" they can actually use and add it to the basement full of their other "stuff" the hobby is in good shape. (have YOU looked at all the RR stuff you have? --am I right?)
Caveat: I am not a lemming.
Where is model railroading as a hobby going? D***'fiknow!
Nor do I much care. I already own most of what I need to finish and run my 'last in this lifetime' model; railroad, and most of what I don't have will come from builoding supply and electrical equipment dealers, not hobby suppliers.
As for the future?
According to Robert Heinlein, the Emperor of the Solar System (in Double Star) is/will be a model railroader.
I also have it on good authority* that, as of 3626, the most politically influential individual in the Milky Way Galaxy, Senior Command Admiral T. P. Carlsen, CSN, has a large, detailed model railroad in his personal quarters.
* Madama Dame Sally Lady Belfrage, DCOE, planetary Madama of Britannia and Newmerica. Her three youngest children also have a model railroad, patterned on the 19th century Great Western Railway and its connections. Unfortunately, the Monolith Corporation, the company of which she is the Managing Director, doesn't own a single share of railroad stock on any of the 2,600,000 planets where it has holdings. (And now you know who will be the most commercially influential individual in the 37th century!)
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964 - when not writing science fiction)
NP2626 As long as we can argue about what the future holds (which is a rather preposterous idea) the future must be O.K.
As long as we can argue about what the future holds (which is a rather preposterous idea) the future must be O.K.
Must be OK..considering the feelings here!!
Here, around London ON we have GXRR running north out of London to Stratford to get through to the K-W area..with mixed trains..sometimes even mixed consists of old/new...one can model just about any era and type of operation...loads of opportunities abound here...
MisterBeasleyThey are alive and well, but they are also "out of sight, out of mind." Today's railroads are hauling coal in unit trains from mine to power plant, and containers from the west coast eastward. They stop in huge yards to unload the containers to trucks. We don't see much local switching to industries anymore.
Whoa! How long has it been since you been trackside? I see locals every day and NS runs lots and lots of general freights as does CSX.
With all due respect,maybe you should do some home work on you tube or trackside before making such statements? Nothing could be farther from today's railroads.
Less interesting is indeed debatable..
Frankly I like the looks and sounds of a GP38-2,GP40-2,MP15DC and SW1500s..I like the looks and sounds of a GP15 as well.
I am just getting back into the hobby after a long absence. Why the absence? Lack of discretionary income. College, then starting my job, buying a decent truck or two, and having 3 other hobbies competing for my pocket money. It is possible to have more than one hobby, so just because somebody has an Xbox 360 doesn't mean they will never have a model railroad.
I could have started years ago with cheaper stuff, but I didn't want to. When I saw that awesome sound-equipped DCC stuff on the forums, youtubes, and from fellow coworkers (who oddly enough also don't take part in clubs), I decided to wait a little until I could start out with that.
I am lucky that I have several decent train shops near me, but unlucky in that I work nights and usually am not awake when they are open. But MB Klein is always available, and my cats love playing in the shipping boxes. I'm even pretty close to Timonium, but it's hard to justify spending 1.) gas money 2.) admission fees 3.) the time to maybe get an OK deal or two.
Tom
(still a somewhat younger guy - not by much - that makes his living from that lousy, boring modern railroad.)
You can take it that Larry's interest is sincere. He's not one to berate someone.
I'm sure glad we didn't have the internet when I was young. It would've discouraged me from joining the hobby. From the looks of it, the future of model railroading is talking about the future of model railroading. I suspect the real cause of its demise will be found to be so much time spent on that, instead of building models.
More seriously, take the opportunity to involve and encourage young people. Even among us old farts, there's maybe one person in a 100 who's interested in the hobby seriously, maybe even less. That's why there aren't any hoardes of young folks beating down the door. But when they do arrive in ones, maybe a pair or two, do everything possible to make them feel at home and appreciated.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
dehusman Doughless I think the percentage of society involved in model railroading is probably similar to the percentage of commercial activity that real railroads participate in. Simply, as the amount of real railroading has declined over the decades, its likely that the percentage of model railroaders have declined as well. I would invite you to do some reading on this because your assumptions are not accurate. The railroad's gross tonnage hauled has increased over the last several decades (except for the recent economic downturn when everybody's tonnage dropped). https://www.aar.org/StatisticsAndPublications/Documents/AAR-Stats-2013-04-17.pdf Scroll down to page 5. For example in 1950 the railroads hualed 592 billion ton miles, in 2000 they hauled 1,546 billion ton miles, 3 times the amount they hauled in the "glory days" of the transition era. The year to year "noise" caused by overall economic variations is often more than all the annual tonnage hauled in 1890. The "City of New Orleans" song and the Penn Central was 50 years ago. Welcome to the 21st century. Railroads are alive and well.
Doughless I think the percentage of society involved in model railroading is probably similar to the percentage of commercial activity that real railroads participate in. Simply, as the amount of real railroading has declined over the decades, its likely that the percentage of model railroaders have declined as well.
I think the percentage of society involved in model railroading is probably similar to the percentage of commercial activity that real railroads participate in. Simply, as the amount of real railroading has declined over the decades, its likely that the percentage of model railroaders have declined as well.
I would invite you to do some reading on this because your assumptions are not accurate. The railroad's gross tonnage hauled has increased over the last several decades (except for the recent economic downturn when everybody's tonnage dropped).
https://www.aar.org/StatisticsAndPublications/Documents/AAR-Stats-2013-04-17.pdf
Scroll down to page 5. For example in 1950 the railroads hualed 592 billion ton miles, in 2000 they hauled 1,546 billion ton miles, 3 times the amount they hauled in the "glory days" of the transition era. The year to year "noise" caused by overall economic variations is often more than all the annual tonnage hauled in 1890. The "City of New Orleans" song and the Penn Central was 50 years ago. Welcome to the 21st century. Railroads are alive and well.
I wasn't refering to the gross tonnage. That goes up as the economy, and ultimately the population and amount of goods needed goes up.
I was refering to the amount that the tonnage moved by rail represents of total tonnaged moved, and the amount that the total tonnage moved represents of the entire economy, which would tend to be less the more we become an information based economy. Basically how much trains are seen in everyday life.
Not really a statistic based thought. I think Mister B said it better than I did.
- Douglas
BRAKIE Burlington Northern #24The suggestion is simple quit insulting those of us who are younger, looking to start or are starting out. It seems like every time a thread like this shows up younger modelers get bashed. Hear! Hear! Your topic was well stated and should be remembered and thank you for adding your experiences.
Burlington Northern #24The suggestion is simple quit insulting those of us who are younger, looking to start or are starting out. It seems like every time a thread like this shows up younger modelers get bashed.
Hear! Hear!
Your topic was well stated and should be remembered and thank you for adding your experiences.
EMD.Don We are lucky I guess in that I can sit in one spot and watch Norfolk Southern on one side of the river, CSX on the other side, with Wheeling & Lake Erie going over both railways. Coal, tank cars, boxcars, auto racks, and the odd stack to keep us entertained.
I'm jealous. Even back in the fifties, I grew up in a place devoid of freight and I had to be content with commuter cars on the Long Island Railroad, and of course the subways. Freight used to go by my apartment, 40 years ago, but I left that spot and so did the trains. That line now has nothing but commuter rail, too.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
NP 2626 "Northern Pacific, really terrific"
Northern Pacific Railway Historical Association: http://www.nprha.org/
MisterBeasley At the risk of kicking off the other debate, I also think today's trains are inherently less interesting. Those unit trains are replacing mixed freight, and consolodation has left us with few railroads and many, many fallen flags. Today's railfan isn't going to see the wide variety of car types and roads that we did as kids. This diminishes the experience of the prototype and the excitement of modeling.
At the risk of kicking off the other debate, I also think today's trains are inherently less interesting. Those unit trains are replacing mixed freight, and consolodation has left us with few railroads and many, many fallen flags. Today's railfan isn't going to see the wide variety of car types and roads that we did as kids. This diminishes the experience of the prototype and the excitement of modeling.
But that's subjective and dependent upon the individual modeler and what interests him or her. Modern railroading is obviously not your thing, but to others it's what interests them. I grew up with diesels and that's all I model. Steamies don't interest me whatsoever. My young Son absolutely loves modern diesels and loves to railfan with me. Variety wise is also dependent upon where you live. We are lucky I guess in that I can sit in one spot and watch Norfolk Southern on one side of the river, CSX on the other side, with Wheeling & Lake Erie going over both railways. Coal, tank cars, boxcars, auto racks, and the odd stack to keep us entertained. Younger diesel generation modelers find a lot of excitement modeling today's railways.
There is room for everyone in the hobby and there is sufficient variety for folks of all ages to model whatever era interests them. It's all good!
dehusmanWelcome to the 21st century. Railroads are alive and well.
They are alive and well, but they are also "out of sight, out of mind." Today's railroads are hauling coal in unit trains from mine to power plant, and containers from the west coast eastward. They stop in huge yards to unload the containers to trucks. We don't see much local switching to industries anymore. Passenger traffic is way down, too, as the automobile and airplane have made intercity rail traffic rare in this country. As healthy as the railroads are, they are not interacting with the public nearly as much as they used to.
EMD.Don Lastly, we have the high end locomotive stuff for $200++ from the likes of Athearn, MTH etc. Out of my price range and budget but obviously not for other modelers. So really, you can spend as much or as little in this hobby and get the same level of enjoyment...which in itself is subjective to the individual modeler. It's all good! Happy Modeling! Don.
Lastly, we have the high end locomotive stuff for $200++ from the likes of Athearn, MTH etc. Out of my price range and budget but obviously not for other modelers. So really, you can spend as much or as little in this hobby and get the same level of enjoyment...which in itself is subjective to the individual modeler.
It's all good! Happy Modeling!
Don,I forgot to mention(silly me) the older yellow and red box Atlas plus the older P2K locomotives that can be bought at reasonable prices..There's still tons of Athearn BB and MDC car kits available for all modelers including new modelers.
Basic DCC operation can be had for around $85-89.00 by using Bachmann E-Z DCC..
Yes sirree it's all good for happy modeling.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
Hoo boy. Another how-do-we-engage-the-youth thread.
As a 17-year-old, I'll admit there are fewer young people who enjoy trains. But that doesn't mean we're not here. I know a 15-year-old who built a layout with his dad and runs it everyday. And during my railfan sessions on the UP main, plenty of parents with kids in tow come to watch trains. And the kids want to watch trains! They rattle off what kind of train it is, what it's hauling, and wave like heck at passing trains hoping for a horn blast. We may be few, but we're still here.
As for the argument over the hobby dying, new products making it easier for newcomers to start and finish a layout look promising. Building a complete layout can be daunting even for experienced modelers, and I see a trend of products coming to encourage new people to join the hobby and fallen-away modelers to finish up that "layout that got away."
BRAKIE Here's the rub. Bachmann is filling that void and with their improved models they may become top dog for those beginning the hobby or doesn't have deep pockets. I still maintain one doesn't need DCC or high price cars and locomotives to enjoy the hobby nor does one need to pay full MSRP for their models..
Here's the rub. Bachmann is filling that void and with their improved models they may become top dog for those beginning the hobby or doesn't have deep pockets.
I still maintain one doesn't need DCC or high price cars and locomotives to enjoy the hobby nor does one need to pay full MSRP for their models..
I agree. Price ranges open to present day model railroaders vary significantly and you don't have to she'll out hundreds of dollars on the latest and greatest locomotive with all the bells and whistles (pun intended) if you don't want to. You can pick up cheap yet reliable older DC models from Athearn, Atlas, Bachmann and others online for under $20 or $30 with patience and persistance. The modeler can choose to add details to these models as he/she sees fit or run them as is.
Then there are some of the recent DCC & Sound units being produced by Bachmann. As I posted earlier, I just picked up a Bachmann F7A Santa Fe locomotive that came with factory installed DCC & Sound for under $90 and I am VERY impressed and pleased. They fit my budget and needs just fine and I hope Bachmann continues with this trend. I now am in the market for some streamlined Santa Fe passenger cars. My budget won't allow me to spend $75+ per car for Walthers latest Santa Fe cars (which are works of art). So, I will bide my time and pick up some of the older Athearn streamlined cars that came as kits and add some details to them (something I enjoy doing). My LHS has lots of these older Athearn rolling stock kits on the shelf and I know there are some Santa Fe streamliners in stock for under $10.
alco_fan richhotrainAll you have to do is look at the demise of the LHS to see where the hobby is headed. False. The internet killed the local train store. There are a thousand times more places to buy train stuff now than ever before. And it is cheaper than ever if just once us old farts would consider inflation.
richhotrainAll you have to do is look at the demise of the LHS to see where the hobby is headed.
False. The internet killed the local train store. There are a thousand times more places to buy train stuff now than ever before. And it is cheaper than ever if just once us old farts would consider inflation.
False. The only thing that the Internet did was to force LHS's that weren't already doing so to offer discount pricing. When I had three LHS's within reasonable driving distance, they all offered discounts on everything and I went there and bought there in spite of the Internet. And, if those LHS's were still open today, I would still be shopping there. Why did they close? Because there weren't enough old hens like you and me shopping there. And that is because the hobby is dying.
And, as to your assertion that there are a thousand times more places on the Internet to buy train stuff now than ever before, that is patently absurd. At its height, the LHS was everywhere. To say that the number of LHS at its zenith is now dwarfed one thousand fold by Internet shops simply cannot be substantiated.
alco_fan hminkyLook at any picture of a model railroading gathering. WGH show, Twin Cities Museum, 2010 Columbia Gorge show 2011 There are thousands more pictures like this. But you old hens keep cackling.
hminkyLook at any picture of a model railroading gathering.
WGH show, Twin Cities Museum, 2010
Columbia Gorge show 2011
There are thousands more pictures like this.
But you old hens keep cackling.
First off, welcome to the chicken coop, fellow hen, you have been doing a lot of cackling on this thread yourself.
Second of all, those photos are meaningless except to demonstrate that old hens like yourself drag your kids and grandkids to train shows on cold winter days in the winter. It doesn't at all mean that the young kids today will take up the hobby.
vsmithBut what I see as a growing hindrance to the future of MRing is there is a gap developing between that which is aimed at beginners vs that which is aimed at the seasoned modeler, it seams like the industry is either aimed at the youngsters who are still enamored with Thomas and the older folks who have been around with already established layouts with deep pockets and can afford to pay the increased prices for more limited production runs. There still is a good amount of lower priced items aimed at the adult who wants to get started but it seams like each year that stock gets a little smaller. This is a tread I think will continue. Its like the manufacturers consider their market either a Thomas kiddie layout type or a full blown basement layout type. Anything left in between is clearly targeted at the RTR types.
Aikidomaster There are a lot of new products available for model railroaders. Much more than ever before. That is the great news. The not so great news is the expense. It is costing more and more to build a layout. It seems to me that if there are more modelers to buy items, the variety and cost of the items might improve. The problem is where to find new members. The youth of today seems to be more interested in video games etc. They do not have the patience to build something like a model (of anything). How do we attract new members? A lot of current modelers are in their 50's, 60's, 70's or beyond. We are dying off!! Suggestions for getting new people interested.
There are a lot of new products available for model railroaders. Much more than ever before. That is the great news. The not so great news is the expense. It is costing more and more to build a layout. It seems to me that if there are more modelers to buy items, the variety and cost of the items might improve. The problem is where to find new members. The youth of today seems to be more interested in video games etc. They do not have the patience to build something like a model (of anything). How do we attract new members? A lot of current modelers are in their 50's, 60's, 70's or beyond. We are dying off!! Suggestions for getting new people interested.
We don't have patience? that's just insulting, I picked the SP&S for a reason. I have to paint everything, I have to decal it all, and I have to do it with the few decal sheets, paints, and RTR items that exist out there. I plan on scratchbuilding a fictional station, it will have a full interior, my passenger cars and cabeese will receive full interiors(paint, details, people). If anything it'll be a time factor because I now have two jobs, I don't have all the free time I did a year ago.
Have you seen Leigh valleys posts about his model aircraft, my posts about mine, various other's posts about their hobbies?
The suggestion is simple quit insulting those of us who are younger, looking to start or are starting out. It seems like every time a thread like this shows up younger modelers get bashed.
I agree that the hobby is changing, not dying, but definitely changing.
The switch from the LHS to online sources, the growing dominance and DCC and electronics, the dominance of RTR vs kits, and the growing price gap.
But what I see as a growing hindrance to the future of MRing is there is a gap developing between that which is aimed at beginners vs that which is aimed at the seasoned modeler, it seams like the industry is either aimed at the youngsters who are still enamored with Thomas and the older folks who have been around with already established layouts with deep pockets and can afford to pay the increased prices for more limited production runs. There still is a good amount of lower priced items aimed at the adult who wants to get started but it seams like each year that stock gets a little smaller. This is a tread I think will continue. Its like the manufacturers consider their market either a Thomas kiddie layout type or a full blown basement layout type. Anything left in between is clearly targeted at the RTR types.
Have fun with your trains
hminky It is too expensive now and modern railroading is not as interesting. Harold
It is too expensive now and modern railroading is not as interesting.
Harold
That will depend on who you ask.
I've been trackside and felt the ground tremble as 2 EMD SD70Aces started their tonnage train.If that doesn't get the choo-choo blood flowing nothing will.
The hobby is only expensive as one wants to make it..
Yup,doom,gloom the hobby is dying.
hminky alco_fan Carry on with the doom and gloom, I find your myopia amusing. Your myopia is more interesting. You never saw model railroading at its peak of popularity. So how can you comment on a decline. The hobby has better stuff than ever but less people using it. Harold
alco_fan Carry on with the doom and gloom, I find your myopia amusing.
Carry on with the doom and gloom, I find your myopia amusing.
Your myopia is more interesting. You never saw model railroading at its peak of popularity. So how can you comment on a decline.
The hobby has better stuff than ever but less people using it.
The hobby may be waning a bit, but who cares! There are so many things that one can experience on this planet and it is so easy to do it. People really have a lot more things they can do with there time and money. I can go to the airport and be scuba diving on the Great Barrier Reef tomorrow if I want to.
There are a lot more things we can do with our money these days and I think that's great. Model Railroading is not going anywhere. However as far as being a pastime you will find the ranks may appear to be thinning in most extracurricular activities. I recently have visited the two R/C flying clubs I belonged to a few years back. Membership is way down at both clubs as people are now buying ready to fly and going off on their own to a field to fly their aircraft.
I think the reason these hobbies appear to be in decline is the face to face social interaction is disappearing (including shows). I use this forum for my interaction with fellow modelers and it is all I need at this point. I am quite sure that if the internet did not exist I would belong to a club or two.
World wide sales are the only true way to tell the health of anything. Somewhere buggy whips are still being made for those still interested.
Brent
"All of the world's problems are the result of the difference between how we think and how the world works."
The hobby is not dying.
The future of the trains only LHS is dismal, they are disappearing. The replacement is the local craft store/multi-hobby store, the online merchant, and the train show vendor. There is a separate thread on the end of Floquil. Guess what? Floquil disappeared around here years ago, but there are still a lot of paint colors at the Hobbytown, just not with railroad color labels. So it goes with glue, strip wood, etc. - basic supplies are available.
The future of print magazines isn't too rosy either. Many have folded in the last few years, the remaining ones are busy reinventing themselves for the new era. I hope they succeed, but they will be different. But there is a wealth of hobby and prototype information online.
The future of kits is one of decline and change. The old plastic, wood, and metal kits have been fading away for years. In their place are the new resin and laser kits, but fewer of them. More and more folks use RTR - some exclusively, others partially. But you still have to build the layout (except for the few who can afford a professional). Even using RTR trains, buildings, track, etc. the modeler still builds the layout.
The kids of today have a lot more entertainment choices with video games, internet, 200+ channel TV. But still, a lot of kids, and adults too, like to build things. Some of them will be model railroaders.
And just as some of us enjoy hand tools for at least some of our woodworking, so will some of tomorows model railroaders enjoy scratchbuilding at least for some of their models.
AikidomasterThe youth of today seems to be more interested in video games etc. They do not have the patience to build something like a model (of anything).
There's a lot of truth to this perspective. If you were born in the 1940s - 1970s -- Your introduction to model railroading was a big deal, and; actually "a growing-up" from the "toys of your youth" -- Model railroading was a really neat thing before the introduction of electronic gadgets.
Anybody still remember the days when styrene models/materials began to emerge, and; how huge this was when compared to the wooden toys & tinplate toys & rubberized automobile toys of circa 1950s?
Conemaugh Road & Traction circa 1956
I'll throw in my thoughts....
Is it less than before....probably. Is it on its way to extinction.....doubtful.
As far as RTR vs scratchbuilding...or LHS vs. the internet....those just represent different paths to the same end...which is simply getting a product a modeler wants at a price he is willing to pay. Back in the day, LHS' sold supplies for scratchbuilding because no producer made the model the hobbyist was seeking. Now the producers make such a product and make it available via the 'net stores, so the need for scratchbuilding or the LHS has become less important.
Its more form over substance, and not really a good way to judge the participation level in the hobby, IMO.
I think all model railroaders enjoy the idea of building something. Whether they sctrachbuild everything, or use a collection of RTR product hunted down via the web, they are still creating their own unique layout, and following through their own unique vision. .Whether it is by kits or RTR, visualizing, planning, and building is part of the fun......I don't see how video games really replace that.
Maybe one way to get kids more involved is to encourage the idea of them creating somthing unique, something that noone else has, rather than playing the same generic game on the same gizmo everybody else has.
BrianinBuffaloThose are some pretty young and short looking old people in your photos. Photoshop no-doubt.
dehusman I am well aware of the future. 50 years ago the only place I could see model trains was at a hobby shop or by reading the MR magazine in the school or public library. The only trains I saw were the trains the hobby shop carried. None of my friends had or cared about model trains. Fast forward 50 years. Kids live on the internet. They are used to shopping on the internet, That's normal. With the internet, they don't have access to the 1000 SKU's of model train stuff in the LHS, they have access to almost every single model railroad product made by every single model manufacturer on the planet. They have access to dozens of fourms to read about and discuss trains. They have access to thousands of videos of real and model trains. The reason model railroading will survive is that we embrace technology, we embrace innovation. CNC, resin casting, sophisticated electronics, 3D printing, its all good. 50 years from now it will be very different from today. And the "model railroading is doomed" discussion will still be going on. 8-)
I am well aware of the future.
50 years ago the only place I could see model trains was at a hobby shop or by reading the MR magazine in the school or public library. The only trains I saw were the trains the hobby shop carried. None of my friends had or cared about model trains.
Fast forward 50 years. Kids live on the internet. They are used to shopping on the internet, That's normal. With the internet, they don't have access to the 1000 SKU's of model train stuff in the LHS, they have access to almost every single model railroad product made by every single model manufacturer on the planet. They have access to dozens of fourms to read about and discuss trains. They have access to thousands of videos of real and model trains.
The reason model railroading will survive is that we embrace technology, we embrace innovation. CNC, resin casting, sophisticated electronics, 3D printing, its all good. 50 years from now it will be very different from today.
And the "model railroading is doomed" discussion will still be going on. 8-)
Here, at last, is the wise and perspicacious voice. Well done, Sir.
The rest of you should pay attention. Read the above quote again; it is at least 18 karat quality.
Crandell
hminkyYou never saw model railroading at its peak of popularity. So how can you comment on a decline.
I am older than you seem to think. But my worldview is not fossilized, unlike some people.
You missed the point. I am not arguing that it is more popular now than _ever_. I am saying that it is not anywhere near dying, as the old hens insist.
Still confident of that statement. Model railroading will be here longer than you and longer than me.
I am out.
hminky picture of mee-ma and gramps bringing the grandkids to a train show
Adjust your bifocals, Harold. Those are dads and moms around the kids.
I go to train shows with the club. There are plenty of younger people visiting the layout.
hminky I can remember when those aisles were full.
Right. Before the internet. We do not have to go to expensive shows and look at 20 year old dusty, picked over blue box kits any more.
alco_fan hminkyLook at any picture of a model railroading gathering. WGH show, Twin Cities Museum, 2010
Cherry picking a picture of mee-ma and gramps bringing the grandkids to a train show doesn't prove the hobby is healthy.
I can do that too, I can remember when those aisles were full.
I volunteer at our local rail museum, and believe it or not, we get a lot of young visitors who love trains in general, and many have simple model RR's of their own. When parents and grandparents come in with the little Railroaders, I try to give them ideas that will inspire them to possibly build a layout to keep the interest alive with the child. I hand out about five DVD's of my layout a weekend to kids who love trains. I've had quite a few return visitors who tell me things like" it's the only video he watches". The hobby may not be as strong as it was when many of us were kids, but I think it has a pretty solid base, and there will always be a model railroad community.
-Stan
Between threads like this and the lack of availability of key parts, I'm starting to feel like Dagny Tagart over here. Oh well, who is John Galt?
Everyone who says that the hobby isn't dying presents no facts.
Go to a trainshow like the one at Timonium or pictures of train gatherings or the people on this forum.
The hobby is dying with the participants.
It seems that these doom and gloom threads pop up periodically and always go nowhere. Just like the 'end of the world' cults that stockpile supplies or dispose of all their worldly possessions because the world is going to come to an end tomorrow, predictions that model railroading is doomed have been made since model railroading first appeared on the scene, and it hasn't happened yet.
I think hysteria about RTR is way overblown. For example, RTF and Foamies did not kill RC planes. They opened that hobby up to more people. The same is true for model railroading.
Kids do not build their own video games. They are RTR
Those of you who are worried about the hobby should be building modules (like I do) to introduce more people to it. The club exposes thousands of people to the hobby every year at various shows.
Cackling about it like hens on a forum improves nothing.
I think people claiming the death of the hobby now will be dead long before model trains are gone.
I personally don't think the hobby is dying but I do feel it is changing. My nephew was bit by the model railroading bug at the age of 3 when I had to bring my trains home from my mothers house after her basement flooded. Thankfully nothing important was lost, all he wanted to do was put some track together and push a train on the track. So to protect my investment I bought him his first starter set and last Christmas he got his first articulated engine a Mantua 2-6-6-2. Now that I am finished with college I started construction on my version of MR's Virginian layout and everyday he wants to go to the basement to work on the trains. I have created a monster but that's OK One aspect that I think will be changing though is with narrow gauge, I would love to start modeling narrow gauge but the cost is outrageous with engines between $300 - $500 each and rolling stock from $50 plus I feel it is keeping many like myself from being able to afford it.
The hobby is dying. Look at any picture of a model railroading gathering.
The guys in the pictures are the young guys from thirty years ago.
NittanyLionFor the record, a video game is $59.99 at launch. Its a pretty hard line. Its such a common pricepoint (that is, there are titles under that point but virtually nothing above) that when it shifted from $49.99 it was a major news story. I mean in mainstream news.
First I agree..That $80.00 video game was for Wii..It was $79.95.
I still use my trusty old PS1 and PS2..I can't afford the going price for a PS3 or X Box 360..
As part of the younger generation of modelers, perhaps I can give a different perspective. I got involved in the hobby when I was 8 and my dad bought my brother and I a Bachmann HO starter set. My brother could car less but I thought trains were just the coolest things in the world ( no doubt contributing to my popularity in grade school). We have spoken about the demise of the LHS but I remember in the 1990s both KB Toys and Toys R Us both sold HO freight cars at reasonable prices ($3 a piece). That was very affordable and unfortunately has gone the way of the dodo bird.
Thing is, growing up with trains is no guarantee. Tony Koester's kids clearly grew up around scale model trains,yet he has indicated in some articles it didn't stick with any of them. His grandkids, on the other hand... I did grow up around model trains, and it did stick with me. My sister never got interested. My nephew is somewhat interested int eh hobby, neother of my boys is, despite both being hugely into Thomas when they were little.
The hobby may be smaller than at its peak, but it is NOT going away. Everyone sees cars, every day. Slot cars were going to wipe out model railroading. However, model railroading is still here, slot cars have all but disappeared. Despite a much greater exposure to cars and trucks as compared to trains, in the real world.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
I have no idea where the hobby is going. But, in terms of bringing youth into the hobby, or hobbies in general, a lot depends on what kids are exposed to, encouraged to pursue, and how things are explained to them. I don't fall into the above 50 (or even 40...for a little while longer at least ) age bracket, but I have been building models my whole life. My Dad introduced me to the hobby of modeling and encouraged it. I had no interest in video games or TV and computers turned me off. I have done the same with my kids. My young Son and pre-teen Daughter all would rather work with me on my layout or one of their chosen hobbies then watch TV, play video games or surf the Internet. Both would rather come with me to the hobby shop, craft/art store, or guitar shop then the mall or some electronics/video game store. I understand that all kids are different, and what works for some won't for others. I know this is subjective and open to debate, but I feel as parents, we have the power to shape and nurture our kids in a positive direction and help them to learn to appreciate what it means to acquire the skills necessary to build or even fix something for themselves...whatever that may be. But as many of you know, this takes work and patience on our (parents) part. As a teacher, I see far too many parents taking the easy way out and letting PBS, Hollywood, Game Stop or something/someone else do the work and raise their kids. In most cases these kids lack the patience or creativity to sit down and work on a hobby, let alone assemble track. To be fair to them, they also do not know where to even begin should they have the inclination to take up model building. Everything is immediate for them. Turn on the TV and there's your program. Turn on the computer and there's your internet/facebook/twitter etc. Turn on the XBox and there's your game. No patience, imagination, or special skills required or necessary. Also, everything is disposable to them so that if "whatever" breaks, don't fix it, just buy a new one. What does this mean for the future of the hobby or hobbies in general? I don't know. But I suspect there will always be a group of people/segment of society interested in model trains and modeling. But I honestly believe the model train population will never be bigger or even as big as it is currently.
Btw, I am not retired but I also model on a pretty tight budget. The latest and greatest HO scale Athearn or MTH diesels with DCC & Sound are way out of my price range/budget. But I just picked up a new Bachmann F7a with factory DCC & sound for under $100 and love it! I hope Bachmann keeps it up and keeps their prices down.
Sorry for the long post all. I yield the floor...
NP2626 50 years ago the corner "Hobby Shop" was doing a good business in plastic models and slot cars. Hobby shops are a dying business, ask any owner of a hobby shop how business is and you will hear how tough that business is today and although there was RTR stuff back then, the vast majority of what was available was kits in wood and plastic. I think you're putting the blinders on by referencing what has occurred in the past. What happened in the past is in the past and what is in the future, is in the future, the two aren't mutually interchangeable.
50 years ago the corner "Hobby Shop" was doing a good business in plastic models and slot cars. Hobby shops are a dying business, ask any owner of a hobby shop how business is and you will hear how tough that business is today and although there was RTR stuff back then, the vast majority of what was available was kits in wood and plastic. I think you're putting the blinders on by referencing what has occurred in the past. What happened in the past is in the past and what is in the future, is in the future, the two aren't mutually interchangeable.
zstripe Carl, I was the ''Goof'' that brought up ''Exposure'' and I agree,totally with your comments..If the hobby does die,,at 70,,I doubt,I will be around to see it... Cheers, Frank
Carl,
I was the ''Goof'' that brought up ''Exposure'' and I agree,totally with your comments..If the hobby does die,,at 70,,I doubt,I will be around to see it...
Yup, same here. Which brings up another point. It's been argued here & in other discussion that the costs of hobbies is all relevant to inflation & salaries etc and that proportionately, stuff still costs the same as it did 40-50 years ago.
Do the math. No, it doesn't! Look back at, say, the early/mid 1960's. You're an average model builder. You have a steady full time job & you make average wages. After taxes you bring home maybe $80.-$90. a week. A Quarter scale model kit of a P-51 Mustang costs roughly $1.00. Now fast forward to the present. Your take home pay is now 10 times what it was in the 60's, say $800.-$900. a week. But, does that model kit cost 10 times what it did then, $10.00? NOPE. It costs $35.- $40. or even $50.! That's 30-40,50 times what it cost in the 60's. The cost is now actually very dis-proportionately high to the rate of salary increase since then.
Carl
"I could never belong to any club that would have me as a member."
BRAKIE AVRNUTNow, if an 11 year old kid walks into the LHS (if he can find one) that kit, a couple bottles of paint, glue & a new paint brush would likely set him back $50.00!! What 11 year old kid can do that? Carl,Are we talking about the same 11 year olds that has high end cell phones PS3s,X Boxes and $45-80.00 video games? Are these the same 11 years that has high dollar R/C cars?
AVRNUTNow, if an 11 year old kid walks into the LHS (if he can find one) that kit, a couple bottles of paint, glue & a new paint brush would likely set him back $50.00!! What 11 year old kid can do that?
Carl,Are we talking about the same 11 year olds that has high end cell phones PS3s,X Boxes and $45-80.00 video games? Are these the same 11 years that has high dollar R/C cars?
For the record, a video game is $59.99 at launch. Its a pretty hard line. Its such a common pricepoint (that is, there are titles under that point but virtually nothing above) that when it shifted from $49.99 it was a major news story. I mean in mainstream news.
But yeah kids have $50 to throw at something nowadays. A bag of chips is north of $4 now. Paperback books are $8. Hardcovers are like $35 sometimes. People try to give their kids a usable amount of money. Handing your kid a $5 now means he can get a 20 oz Coke and a candy bar, but not much else.
We just had an open house at our model railroad club and parents brought their kids. There were a lot of young people interested in trains, think we even picked up some new young members. One dad brought his son and asked if his son could run his diesels during the show. I had my two "old" Proto2000, E9s running on a passenger train, he had his two new Broadway Limited, E9s with sound! We swapped them out and this is the first time he had got to run them on a large layout pulling a long passenger train. This young man was so happy for getting to run his new motive power, we new have a new member for life now. His father was delighted that we let him run on our club layout.
I know that most model railroad clubs do not allow young people to join their club, we do, and have made new model railroaders for life.
BRAKIE AVRNUTNow, if an 11 year old kid walks into the LHS (if he can find one) that kit, a couple bottles of paint, glue & a new paint brush would likely set him back $50.00!! What 11 year old kid can do that? Carl,Are we talking about the same 11 year olds that has high end cell phones PS3s,X Boxes and $45-80.00 video games? Are these the same 11 years that has high dollar R/C cars? At our train show in April I seen several 12 year olds buying Atlas DCC/Sound equipped locomotives. Where did they get the money for all this stuff? From dear old Mom and Dad just like its been for as long as I can remember.. The sky isn't falling-it may be cracked though. Remember today's kids are very computer savvy and they know how to order on line..
At our train show in April I seen several 12 year olds buying Atlas DCC/Sound equipped locomotives.
Where did they get the money for all this stuff?
From dear old Mom and Dad just like its been for as long as I can remember..
The sky isn't falling-it may be cracked though.
Remember today's kids are very computer savvy and they know how to order on line..
I suppose it's because we are all different. I'm sure there are now & were then kids who got handed the money from dear ol' mom & dad. That's where I guess I was different. My mom & dad didn't have a lot of money to hand us kids for that kind of stuff. We went out, mowed lawns, shoveled snow etc & earned our spending money.
Good Morning!
I know this has been discussed more times than you can count, but some interesting points have been brought up here. I would definetly have to agree with what Rich has said. The kids certainly have totally different interests than we did. Just look at how the country has changed since we were kids. Virtually every aspect of a kids life today is so TOTALLY different from what those of born in the the 30's to 60's era experienced. I have two grandaughters, age 15 & 17 and their whole life & mindset is so completely different from what mine was at that age that you can't even begin to compare them. I suppose it has always been that way. I'm sure our childhoods were completely different from those of our grandparents too.
I also think the point that someone has made about "exposure" has a lot to do with it too. We grew up with a great deal of exposure to hobby's like model railroading & kit building. That's what kids did then. Just about every town had a LHS or two. And if it didn't there was always stores like Woolworths & Newberrys etc. They all had hobby sections with model kits, train stuff, model paints & the like. When I was a kid we even had a local hardware store that had a hobby section. You saw hobby stuff everywhere, were exposed to it & most importantly for a kid, it was affordable!
Back around 1959-1960 when I was 11-12 years old, my best buddy & I would mow lawns in the summer, shovel walks & driveways in the winter. We could always find ways to make a few bucks. And we had two LHS's, both within walking distance & the 5 & 10 was only a couple blocks away. Saturdays we hit the LHS, maybe each with a buck or two we could spend. We could go in, buy a Revell 1/72 scale airplane kit for 50 cents; Testors paints were 19 cents a bottle, so was a tube of glue & maybe 10 cents for a new paint brush. Spend a $1.00 or $1.25 & we had hours of kitbuilding enjoyment. And, that LHS had a steady stream of kids in & out o Saturday, all buying low end purchases like that, but it was a "bread & butter" day for the LHS owner. He probably made more gross profit that day selling pocket change stuff to kids than he did any other day of the week selling higher end stuff to the serious modelers.
Now, if an 11 year old kid walks into the LHS (if he can find one) that kit, a couple bottles of paint, glue & a new paint brush would likely set him back $50.00!! What 11 year old kid can do that? Not very many. Point is, that when kids got priced out of the LHS, that was the beginning of the end for the LHS, as we knew it. A whole "bread & butter" customer base was lost. With the demise of places like Woolworths etc, came further loss of exposure to hobbies. Even the big box stores like Walmart don't have model kits, hobby stuff & trains anymore. (At least the one we have closest to us doesn't anymore. They used to.) There's very little everyday exposure to hobby stuff for the kids anymore, like we had. So, naturally, the interest isn't going to be there either.
NP262650 years ago the corner "Hobby Shop" was doing a good business in plastic models and slot cars. Hobby shops are a dying business, ask any owner of a hobby shop how business is and you will hear how tough that business is today and although there was RTR stuff back then, the vast majority of what was available was kits in wood and plastic. I think you're putting the blinders on by referencing what has occurred in the past. What happened in the past is in the past and what is in the future, is in the future, the two aren't mutually interchangeable.
dehusman These same discussions have been going on for decades. 50 years ago model railroading was doomed because of plastic ready to run models and slot cars.
These same discussions have been going on for decades. 50 years ago model railroading was doomed because of plastic ready to run models and slot cars.
Hi,
I tend to agree, those of us over 50 likely grew up with trains as kids and our love for them stuck with us.
I'm 69, have 4 adult kids and several grandkids. All like to look at the layout and a few like to make the trains whistle and run around the tracks. But none are interested enough to want their own.
Sadly, I think that situation is more the norm, than not.
ENJOY !
Mobilman44
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central
50 years ago in 1963, a Baby Boomer was 17 years old and dreaming of a real layout with landscaping and mountains and forests and a determination to build it wheh he grew up and had the funds to do so.
A 17 year old today was born in 1996. How many of those kids have ever owned an electric train or built and run even a small layout?
As Don Meredith used to sing on Monday Night Football, Turn out the Lights, the Party's over.
NP2626 Rich, I've always found predicting the future to be a great way to prove one's self wrong. Still, I feel you are probably more right, than wrong!
Rich, I've always found predicting the future to be a great way to prove one's self wrong. Still, I feel you are probably more right, than wrong!
It's less a prediction than it is pure reality. It is all about demographics. All of us between the ages of 50 and 80 grew up owning and running Lionel and American Flyer trains as kids. That simply doesn't happen anymore. Today's kids have different interests. It is that simple.
rrinker There are TONS of kids still interested in seeing the trains, and NOT just the modern stuff rolling by on the main line.
There are TONS of kids still interested in seeing the trains, and NOT just the modern stuff rolling by on the main line.
Wierd, I can always find the products produced for my chosen prototype, most of the time on ebay since the 'limited run' productions where all 8-10 years ago, but I find so many of them I could have purchased them all 4-5x over - in fact many of them I DID purchase twice since I had to start all over a few years ago. Not too many new locos are made for my road, but luckily the paint scheme is pretty simple, decals are available, and they still do make undecorated things. The LHS is a Hobbytown, they have almost no train stuff except some Bachmann train set level items, but I can almost always find what I need at Klein's.
Our club does shows in public locations such as hobby shows and, coming up, a railroad museum across the street from an operating steam railroad. There are TONS of kids still interested in seeing the trains, and NOT just the modern stuff rolling by on the main line.
Having said what I just said above, my own grandson is very interested in trains and I got him started in Model Railroading this past Christmas. My own two sons had an interest in the hobby when I got back into it, in 1988. Who knows if they will get back into it; or, not? This hobby is multifaceted and a fantastic experience builder and it certainly would be a shame if it were to die! However, look at what young people do in their spare time now. Many can't pull themselves out of their cell phones!
Albert Einstein said: "I fear the day that technology will surpass our human interaction. The world will have a generation of idiots".
Larry,
I will certainly agree with Your last,paragraph,,..
All you have to do is look at the demise of the LHS to see where the hobby is headed.
If I need to buy something, anything, for the layout, I wind up on the Internet searching MB Klein, Caboose Hobbies, Hobbylinc, and the like.
If I need a discontinued loco or passenger car, I search eBay.
Half the time or worse, I cannot even find available something I need.
The hobby is dying guys, face it.
Craig, I have notice a lot of young faces at train shows and trackside and I think the hobby will remain about the same in the coming years.One needs to attend train shows and go trackside to see this.I'm sure there's a lot of young forum members.
Looking back the hobby has been "doomed" before from the lack of younger modelers.When I was young most Columbus Ohio model railroad club members was older in their 40-60s.At 65 I see a lot of young faces.
I seen many roll playing games come on strong and fade away..Video games,R/C cars and model trains seems to be a constant.I've seen my fair share of "hot shot" modelers* come and go over the years while the "average" modeler stays.
I do think the price bubble will burst or Bachmann will become the clear winner since they keep improving and can be had for around $35-64.00 while other manufacturers prices keeps increasing.. A $89.95 RTR boxcar by 2015 is possible with the current rate of price increases..
Who knows we may see the raise of detailing articles and topics in the coming months.Return of kits may be a possibility.
*Hot shot modeler"..We all seen these modelers before..They hot shoot it into the hobby and go all out buying high dollar cars and locomotives,a small library of books,plan for that perfect Godzilla size layout,very active on forums,in clubs and poof! they're gone never to be seen or heard from again..
I really can't answer this question. Being from the old school where there was Model-er in Model-ing, my feelings are the hobby headed for the Alf-Alpha when the RTR thing took on such a heavy proportion of the activity. So, my point of view is slanted towards wondering if building miniature railroads is even a hobby, anymore? Seems more like collecting collectables to me.
The hobby is what it is and what it is to me, is not what it is to others. I like to build things and have pride in what I've built and the effort I put into it. If it weren't for the fact that some manufacturers are still providing me with kits, I would drop this hobby like a "Hot Potato".
I agree, I think the prices are getting out of hand. I love steam locomotives! However, being retired and on a fixed income my ability to buy much in the way of steamers (or, Diesels for that matter) from a retailer is almost non-existent.
Given my opinions on how I see the hobby, I really don't see too bright of a future! However, I am proven wrong on a daily basis in everything else I have opinions on, so given that, once again I have to say: "I really can't answer this question". I only see that the hobby will likely morph into something I probably won't have much interest in.
This is, Just My Opinion,,,I find it hard to believe,that it is dying out,,even in the 40's and 50's,not every kid was involved with trains,there were,model ships,wood&plastic,model car kits,planes and so forth..But then most kids,would not know it existed,without exposure..Therein,I believe is the key,,''exposure''..The kids from the later years and now are being bombarded with tv and other similar adds of all this neat elect.tech..Which I am not against,,but there is no more hands,experience any more,,,I'm willing to bet,there are a lot of kids,and for that matter,grown-ups,have never held a saw and hammer in their hands,let alone used them.. Again it bowels down to that word again,,''exposure''....And then there is the,''Ready To Repair'' side of the Hobby..I believe,again just my opinion,,,kids and grown ups,not all,, are lacking a real important skill,if you will,called,''Common Sense'',,,,,,,,Good Day To All!!
Where is model railroading headed? Not to my fathers home, that's for sure. He can't see any point in watching a toy train go round and round as he puts it. I do however have a grand nephew who is absolutely nuts about trains. He's just getting started in electric trains. When he saw my layout he was so excited he almost went into a coma! Now he can't wait for his next visit. But alas, Virginia is more than a few steps away. Closer at hand is my neighbor who just hit 20. He's been a train nut since he could crawl and I made sure he had a steady diet of trains. He has a small HO shelf layout in his bedroom and intends to expand. I have around a dozen friends in this area who have layouts varying in size from a counter top to a three room empire and most have their families involved. From what I can see here I'd say the hobby is in no danger of dying out. Maybe changing a bit from what we understand it to be but not dying out. How different is it today from say, the 1950's?