MisterBeasleyNow, they evoke the same kind of memories as the F&SM, of a simpler time that was nevertheless vibrant and alive.
I don't know why but,some of those structures on F&SM remains me of "Sweethaven" in the movie "Popeye"..
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
LensCapOn Feel free to make a list of who has managed that.
Compare the paintings of Norman Rockwell with the modeling of George Selios on his Franklin and South Manchester. When I was a boy, the Rockwell paintings were new, and graced the covers of the Saturday Evening Post. Now, they evoke the same kind of memories as the F&SM, of a simpler time that was nevertheless vibrant and alive.
Edward Hopper painted "Nighthawks:"
and John Armstrong modeled it:
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
Brunton How's the layout building going during your renovation efforts? (no, I'm not being a smart-whatever). I was building a layout as we worked on the house, but it was very slow going.
How's the layout building going during your renovation efforts? (no, I'm not being a smart-whatever). I was building a layout as we worked on the house, but it was very slow going.
I'm getting a lot of help on the layout too. The basement was finished renovation wise so I just needed to figure out the space I wanted. Once I decided on the size my friend Dave (TA462) and some of his friends came over and built a wall to close off my train room, installed a drop ceiling, installed a door and built my benchwork. Of course I helped, lol. Most of the track is now installed too. These guys are part of a round robin group but they have been spending their time over the last couple months helping me. One of the guys, Gerald told me we are going to get you up and running but the scenery will be all me. They are going to show me how to do things but they are going to leave me on my own for the most part. If I need help they will be there to help. Its great to have a good bunch of guys to be there for me when I need it.
I don’t think we would want our modeling to be “Fine Art” as it is currently understood. It doesn’t “challenge” the viewer, or disturb them, or make them uncomfortable. (If your modeling does you may want to consider a new hobby)
What we are trying to do is evoke images and feelings from the real world, sometimes of things gone before our birth. The best of us do manage to do that and are definitely art, possibly fine art by the old definition of the 17th century. Feel free to make a list of who has managed that.
ONR FANNothing really to be confused about. I'm restoring a Century home and I'm paying experienced people to help me with it. I'm doing the dirty work and anything that I am capable of. Trust me it would take a life time if someone did this on their own. I'm 3 years into this project and I figure I will be finished in another 2.
Good luck - it's a monumental task! My wife and I did most of the restoration work on our own NJ home - spent about 10 years on it. Like you, we got help where we needed it, and once because it was cheaper to hire someone than to buy the materials and do it ourselves - fiberglass insulation installation. In the end I got transferred to SC and we had to hire contractors to finish the work, or it would have been another two or three years at least.
Mark P.
Website: http://www.thecbandqinwyoming.comVideos: https://www.youtube.com/user/mabrunton
vsmith Well just to muddle things up a bit, this is a 10' tall ball of trains called "Medusa's Head" by artist Chris Burden, I've seen this, while it couldnt run it was astonishing to walk around and look at. So here is at least one bonifide example of model trains used as fine art.
A true ball of spaghetti layout.
Paul
That must be art, because it can't possibly be anything else.
MisterBeasley Over the weekend, we took our daughter out to a fine Italian restaurant in Portland, Maine. Portland is one of those small hotbeds of great food, served in intimate settings at reasonable prices. As one who takes a broad view of what qualifies as "art," I would include the chefs, as well as the vintners in Italy who produced the nice wines we had. And, "blessed are the cheesemakers," as Monty Python so amusingly misunderstood in The Life of Brian. To me, maybe art is just taking somewhat ordinary things and turning the amps up to 11 when you do them.
Over the weekend, we took our daughter out to a fine Italian restaurant in Portland, Maine. Portland is one of those small hotbeds of great food, served in intimate settings at reasonable prices. As one who takes a broad view of what qualifies as "art," I would include the chefs, as well as the vintners in Italy who produced the nice wines we had. And, "blessed are the cheesemakers," as Monty Python so amusingly misunderstood in The Life of Brian.
To me, maybe art is just taking somewhat ordinary things and turning the amps up to 11 when you do them.
Have fun with your trains
The point is easy.....in my original post I spoke about discovering on line, Nick Muff's incredible layout. I suggested that he and several other really good modelers...had they been painters or sculptors, would have their works displayed in museums and galleries around the globe. I am not sure that model railroading as seen by the public recognizes how truly gifted these artisans are.
When I was doing painting, sketching, and murals, I was almost well known and possibly respected... at least in my area. Now I'm known as "the nut in the basement". But I would not change a *** thing!!
Of course the fellow who sets up his Tyco train set on a used ping pong table backed with some ready to plant structures .....is he a fine artist?......but who is to say that he is not, as to him this may be his art as it is within the beholder.
As mentioned by others, I covered this subject in my book, but this very issue came up with me just recently and my interest in the subject was renewed.
HZ
Sir Madog So, where are we now in this discussion? Some say model railroading is a fine art and some don´t think it is - the point for either view remains to prove. The question, what makes art into art, is a cultural thing. At this end of the Big Pond, the term art sees a much more restrictive use and is usually attributed only to the classic fields of art - painting, sculpturing, music and, to a lesser degree, architecture. No one here would think of model railroading being a form of art, although a well built layout has a lot in common with a sculpture. I understand that there is a much more liberal use of the word art in the US. It is quite OK for me if you call model railroading a fine art - for me, it´ll remain a fine craft.
So, where are we now in this discussion?
Some say model railroading is a fine art and some don´t think it is - the point for either view remains to prove.
The question, what makes art into art, is a cultural thing. At this end of the Big Pond, the term art sees a much more restrictive use and is usually attributed only to the classic fields of art - painting, sculpturing, music and, to a lesser degree, architecture. No one here would think of model railroading being a form of art, although a well built layout has a lot in common with a sculpture.
I understand that there is a much more liberal use of the word art in the US. It is quite OK for me if you call model railroading a fine art - for me, it´ll remain a fine craft.
I completely agree with Ulrich.
In my opinion model railroading fallis into the craft category.
My sister-in-law won a second prize at a stste fair for doll making but she didn't think of it as art.
Some layouts seen on this forum are outstanding and we modlers would describe them as a work of art, but that doesn't make it so in the eyes of "the man on the street".
Just my 2 cents worth!
Bob
.
Don't Ever Give Up
I'm on the "art" side for what a model railroad can be. It can be creative, realistic, impressionistic, and even "modern." Traditional art skills such as painting and sculpture are just a part of building a model railroad. The artist develops keen observational skills, and then seeks to duplicate those or interpret them in his studio.
I'd also like to address Howard's other point - whether electronics is changing the hobby and taking it in a different direction. I don't think so at all. DCC, in particular, has freed me from much of the wiring and control issues of DC, letting me have more time for scenery on the one hand and running the trains rather than the track on the other. It's part of the evolution that brings our models closer to the prototype that we all seek to emulate.
Brunton ONR FANI'm restoring a century home and the people that I've hired are true masters in their craft. Uh, I'm a bit confused here. Are YOU restoring the home, or paying others to do it for you? Or maybe you mean you're doing most of the work, and hiring out only the work that is beyond your ability to do to your standards?
ONR FANI'm restoring a century home and the people that I've hired are true masters in their craft.
Nothing really to be confused about. I'm restoring a Century home and I'm paying experienced people to help me with it. I'm doing the dirty work and anything that I am capable of. Trust me it would take a life time if someone did this on their own. I'm 3 years into this project and I figure I will be finished in another 2.
Here's an interesting twist for this thread: an exhibition by contemporary artist Kim Adams at the Art Gallery of Ontario.
http://www.ago.net/kim-adams-recent-works
Scroll through the photos and you'll see why I think this guy has impeccable taste in passenger cars!
We're going to try and take the kids tomorrow.
-Jason
Jason Shron - President - Rapido Trains Inc. - RapidoTrains.comMy HO scale Kingston Sub layout: Facebook.com/KingstonSub
BRAKIE ...If one's layout is a work of "art" why is it when one decides to build a new layout or when a person passes from this life to the next why does their layout end up in the nearest Dempsey Dumpster? You certainly wouldn't throw a piece of art into the trash you would sell it at a flea market for a few bucks..
...If one's layout is a work of "art" why is it when one decides to build a new layout or when a person passes from this life to the next why does their layout end up in the nearest Dempsey Dumpster? You certainly wouldn't throw a piece of art into the trash you would sell it at a flea market for a few bucks..
Michelangelo was reknown for recarving sculptures he was not satisfied with, Van Gogh, Da Vinci, Rembrandt, all repainted parts or completely repainted over several works they were unhappy with, so to rework a layout is not out of the ordinary for "artists"
SpaceMouseThis seems like a nebulous line in the sand. Is he not restoring the house because he is not pounding nails. What if he pounded nails but didn't mill the wood. How about if he milled the wood but didn't chop the tree. The point here is that the person causing something to happen can claim to be restoring the home if he causes it to happen. He may have only a dream. He may have had a lot of input on the plans. But he may not have done the engineers calculations to get the plans approved or had the experience to convince an inspector that the wiring was correct, but he made the restoration happen.
But regarding your response, it appears that, by your logic, if I pay someone to scratchbuild me a locomotive, I can rightly claim that I built it. Or if I have a friend who kitbashes a structure for a particular place on my layout, I can rightly claim that I built it, since my having the layout in the first place caused it to be done. Or maybe, closer to home for you, If I sell you the materials to do a sketch, I then have the right to claim that sketch as my own product. After all, I made the sketch happen by virtue of providing the materials. Do I have that right?
Of course MR is fine art or just plain art, MR scenes (layouts) that can make people visualise an actual scene in their mind as if they are viewing a real scene, well, for sure if you weathered that shiny, new, sparkling steam locomotive.
I restore houses for a living - often for people who can and do perform some of the work themselves. Restoring houses is seldom something one person has the skills or time to complete on ones own.
My wife and I restored our home, which was reconginzed by the local historic comminsion and later appeared on the HGTV show Restore America.
While I did a rather large percentage of the work mysef, it did require a team of people more than 3 years to completely restore and renovate the house and grounds. Is this art? I think so. To me good Architecture is more "valuable" art than all the paintings in all the museums. good architecture is art in practice and enriches every minute you spend in its presence. Again, model railroading is more than fine art - Howard was wise to make the switch. Sheldon
While I did a rather large percentage of the work mysef, it did require a team of people more than 3 years to completely restore and renovate the house and grounds.
Is this art? I think so. To me good Architecture is more "valuable" art than all the paintings in all the museums. good architecture is art in practice and enriches every minute you spend in its presence.
Again, model railroading is more than fine art - Howard was wise to make the switch.
Sheldon
BruntonUh, I'm a bit confused here. Are YOU restoring the home, or paying others to do it for you? Or maybe you mean you're doing most of the work, and hiring out only the work that is beyond your ability to do to your standards?
This seems like a nebulous line in the sand. Is he not restoring the house because he is not pounding nails. What if he pounded nails but didn't mill the wood. How about if he milled the wood but didn't chop the tree. The point here is that the person causing something to happen can claim to be restoring the home if he causes it to happen. He may have only a dream. He may have had a lot of input on the plans. But he may not have done the engineers calculations to get the plans approved or had the experience to convince an inspector that the wiring was correct, but he made the restoration happen.
Chip
Building the Rock Ridge Railroad with the slowest construction crew west of the Pecos.
I started this thread as just recently the subject came up from a patron who purchased one of my paintings from decades back. She was most complimentary and had asked why I stopped painting and sketching. I informed her that I found model railroading was far more of a challenge and required far more creativity than slopping Liquitex on a canvas or illustration board. I just found the art medium now of choice.....basswood, styrene, and Hydrocal. She thought I was nuts as she and possibly so many have no friggin' idea what about goes into model railroading and it is most definitely an art form.....just not as lucrative as being a successful painter. Those who know me will understand that financial rewards are no where as important to me as the feeling of accomplishment in practicing the art that you love. Plus I have never met a choo choo or model railroader I did not like...not so in the art world!
I pretty much said my piece. I think there is a lack of understanding of what Art is and people getting too caught up in this left brain interpretation of it.
Chris
I will repeat my comment from the last time this topic came up -
Model Railroading is WAY above fine art in all rspects.
and to add, the OP is truely one of its Masters.
eaglescout but it is still art to me as it took a manifestation of my imagination to create it.
Instead of artist maybe we are inventors?
Need to ponder over that one myself..
I believe the saying goes, "Art is in the eye of the beholder." I took an art appreciation class in college and was amazed at what we were "told" to appreciate in some instances. I may not be a fine consumer of art that the elites say is fine art but I know what I like. I wouldn't give you a plug nickel for some very expensive art pieces but will prominently display my garage sale find in my living room. Yes, my layout may end up in a garage sale or a dumpster but it is still art to me as it took a manifestation of my imagination to create it.
Brakie, I guess we can agree to disagree. From what I understood about Tony's AM was that most of the useable parts were sold off or given away. What was left was unuseable and got thrown out. It wasn't the complete railway that got thrown out.
BRAKIE ... If model railroad is a "art" then wouldn't slot car tracks with scenery be a "art"? How about the folk that build various types of dioramas? Is that a supposed "art"? How about the miniature worlds,dungeons etc the gamers build for their "quests" is that a art? None of these past times is a "art" including model railroading.Bottomless money pits yes,arts no.. If one's layout is a work of "art" why is it when one decides to build a new layout or when a person passes from this life to the next why does their layout end up in the nearest Dempsey Dumpster? You certainly wouldn't throw a piece of art into the trash you would sell it at a flea market for a few bucks..
...
If model railroad is a "art" then wouldn't slot car tracks with scenery be a "art"? How about the folk that build various types of dioramas? Is that a supposed "art"? How about the miniature worlds,dungeons etc the gamers build for their "quests" is that a art? None of these past times is a "art" including model railroading.Bottomless money pits yes,arts no..
If one's layout is a work of "art" why is it when one decides to build a new layout or when a person passes from this life to the next why does their layout end up in the nearest Dempsey Dumpster? You certainly wouldn't throw a piece of art into the trash you would sell it at a flea market for a few bucks..
I think all of those things are art.
I think we're confusing art with paintings and sculptures that people pay millions for. Art can be as simple as the picture your 5 year old drew with crayons in his kindergarten class. Just because someone won't pay money for it doesn't mean it isn't art. I have a favorite painting that hangs above my desk, it was painted by my mother-in-law who took lessons late in life as a hobby. Does it have any value? No, but it is art and I like it.
As for those who describe it as 3D engineering drawings - if that's the case then why do you paint them? At a minimum the painting is art. But actually the model itself is art - it's our representation of the real world.
Do I consider myself an artist because I'm a model railroader? Yes I do, because model railroading is art. Will my models sell for big bucks? No, but so what, money is not the definition of art. Will my layout wind up in the landfill next to my childrens drawings? Probably, but they both are still art.
Enjoy
Paul the artist
ONR FAN Brakie, good questions. I think why 95% of layouts end up in dumpsters is because they really are not works of art. Sure they may look good to the builder but they don't have that little extra that puts them in that class. I will never forget my first train show, the layouts looked great and then I went to a friends house to see his layout. It was like night and day the difference.
Brakie, good questions. I think why 95% of layouts end up in dumpsters is because they really are not works of art. Sure they may look good to the builder but they don't have that little extra that puts them in that class. I will never forget my first train show, the layouts looked great and then I went to a friends house to see his layout. It was like night and day the difference.