Fine art??? At one of my early train shows, we had a French caterer, besides being arrogant, claimed his culinary creations were fine art, and that my dioramas and custom built rolling stock being offered for sale were toys, and "certainly not fine art ". Not only did I not renew his contract, but I had great pleasure in informing him that my structures at least did not turn into waste in 24 hours ( I'm normally more graphic over these issues....)
After participating for over 50 years in this hobby and seeing many wonderful pikes, I can most assuredly say that model railroading is a fine art.....especially since I recently discovered the thread on Nick Muff's pike. I did more research on Muff and his KCS layout, and discovered and fully believe that had Nick been a painter or sculptor, his work would have been displayed in museums and galleries world-wide. I have seen other great examples in our hobby such as Bob Lawson, George Sellios, John Allen, and more.
The hobby has changed...not for the worse, just a different emphasis leaning greatly towards high tech electronics. In 1962, Had the Railroad Model Craftsman magazine I purchased from the rack in the 7-11 had a cover story about electronics and under the bench activities, I doubt if I ever would have entered the hobby. This issue was about John Allen and his incredible creation...and overnight I was a model railroad wannabe.
Granted...., electronics, computers, and high tech are attracting many younger folks and that is good as whatever it takes to keep our hobby alive is a major plus. But with this new phase...is it steering model railroading away from art? I don't know as there are several MR's who besides being excellent modelers are also experts in electronics. For me this is an interesting question as it is the art that is my driving force.
Most if not all of my electronics on my pike are done by friends who possess these skills. Actually I'm not allowed under the bench except to re stock the ice box with drinks and corral one of my cats that finds her way into the basement.
Point of all of this???? I don't have a clue, just some thoughts and sharing them.
HZ
Another point of view..
Being a exbrakeman and seeing I'm trying to emulate railroad operation I can hardly call railroading a fine art..
Now looking at today's scenery I think the term would be "museum quailty".
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
I agree that model railroading is fine art. I won't say I execute it to museum quality, but I enjoy it. What hooked me was a trackplan for the East Broad Top RR in the December 1971 Model Railroader. The artistic painting of the trackplan really captivated me.
What makes this a great hobby is all the different types of parts - artistic, mechanical, electronic, etc.
Enjoy
Paul
HZ,
I agree with you. There is a "lost art" aspect to model railroading that needs to be recaptured. Frank Ellison coined the "art of model railroading" he was an artist not only with model trains but worked in theatre as well.He really understood illusion and proportion. These aspects, when used properly, can do more for layout then worrying over every dimensional precision.
The "lost art" of today is everyone is so caught up with being absolutely precise on their dimensions, that they forgot about illusion, proportion, and forced light and shadow. All art principles. These will do SO much more for achieving a sense of realism then mulling over every rivet.
Chris Palomarez
Indeed, it is a fine art and a whole lot more. Carpentry, construction, electrical, design & planning, painting, photography, history, etc. What other hobby combines as many skills and talents as model railroading?
I agree Howard
I think seeing well built scenes is probably what draws most into the hobby, but as you mentioned there are other things too.
I have not done a lot of scenery on my layouts, including the current one.
Structures and rolling stock can be works of art too.
- Douglas
I view it as a series of acquired skills and honed talents rather than an art. While I think you can be artistic in your modeling endeavors, I wouldn't call it art.
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
I do not agree with "model railroading is fine art", I will agree with "model railroading can be fine art".
Similarly I don't agree with all painting being fine art, but agree than some painting is fine art.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
it's an art, a miniature nitty, gritty, friendly world. nothing beats looking at an SD40 F7 duo battiling a long train while a pair of gracefully curved E9A's pass on the other track leading a sleek consist of passenger cars.
SP&S modeler, 1960's give or take a decade or two for some equipment.
http://www.youtube.com/user/SGTDUPREY?feature=guide
Gary DuPrey
N scale model railroader
When did "Pike" turn into "Layout"? jerry
One definition I have heard for "Fine Art," is that it serves no purpose other than to arouse our aesthetic appreciation. By that standard, the caterer was both right and wrong - his stuff looked good (I hope) but its primary purpose was to serve as metabolic fuel. (And don't forget to flush the ash pit after emptying the under-firebox hopper...)
Some model railroad items are fine art to the beholder (a scratch-built N scale Shay comes to mind) but not to the user (who wants those three disconnect loads out of the woods and into the pond.) This can apply to anything from a Z-scale bobber caboose to an empire the size of a 747 hangar.
On the other hand, some people, for valid reasons of their own, practice the, "Art," of model railroading at the, "Kid's crayon drawing on the fridge," level. This ranges from the train set on the 36 x 45 loop on rolled out grass mat to the innumerable iterations of the Foam Flats and Plywood Pacific. I will readily admit that I am at (or possibly below) that level - but the Empire is a work in (very slow) progress and I am not satisfied with the status quo. I am, however, happy with what I've done so far, and look forward to more and better in the future.
Chuck (Not very artistic tin and wrench bender modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
Howard
Thank you for using the word "Pike" , in my world this is what they should be called
"The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge but imagination."-Albert Einstein
http://gearedsteam.blogspot.com/
tomikawaTTOn the other hand, some people, for valid reasons of their own, practice the, "Art," of model railroading at the, "Kid's crayon drawing on the fridge," level.
Kinda like a Picasso?
Some of Picasso's paintings looks like children's drawings
The issue, whether model railroading is an art, pops up every now and then.
I would not want to call model railroading an art, but rather a craft. As in real life, there are craftsmen (artisans) among us, who are more talented than others. Does that make their work into a piece of art?
When does a piece of art is regarded as "art"? I bet there are millions of well-crafted paintings and sculptures in the world, which would not shun a comparison to the Monets, Renoirs, van Goghs and Rodins of this world, but none of them will be considered to be "art". Why? Because nobody will buy them, unless there is a big name attached to them. They will remain a piece of household decoration at best.
I am prepared to call model railroading an art when someone is buying a layout created by George Sellios and displays it in his living room, just to have a "Sellios"...
There are modelers that sign their work and sell it for hundreds over what they paid for the starting point. I recall a modeler acquiring and displaying the San Juan Central built by Malcom Furlow with a lot of pride. Eric Brooman's Utah Belt models do pretty well in auction too.
To say that since there's a vast scale of abilities that it can't be considered "art" to me confirms model railroading as an art. No artist is really born into their medium and it takes time to find out what really inspires someone. That may take less time for some and longer for others. The true value is in the beholder regardless of ability. All these mass produced items really don't have any long term value past our lifetimes, but if touched by a "master"...how many of you would prize a piece of John Allen's work?
Just food for thought
sh00flyhow many of you would prize a piece of John Allen's work?
I wouldn't.. I never thought John was a master of anything other then whimsical modeling..There were other modelers of that era was paving the path to todays hobby..
BRAKIE sh00flyhow many of you would prize a piece of John Allen's work? I wouldn't.. I never thought John was a master of anything other then whimsical modeling..There were other modelers of that era was paving the path to todays hobby..
I would. Whimsical? Yes, for me that's part of the charm.
I've had the chance to visit 3 layouts and a few train shows. I would say Model Railroading can be a fine art. Some layouts I've seen at shows are nice but 2 layouts I've visited are in my opinion fine art. Two people helping me with my railway, Gerald and Dave(TA462) have incredibly detailed layouts. The amount of work these two have put into adding such detail like dishes in a kitchen sink just boggles my mind. Every time I visit them I discover something new, lol.
I remember bringing up this topic and WWIII starting. Being married to an artist does not make me an expert, but I have certainly been exposed to a lot of art. In it's crudest form we might say that art is when you create one thing to represent another--certainly model railroading fits that description. One of the things people are striving for these days in the art community is memorability. That trait makes some layouts stand out and eliminates others. Some artists look to bring forth emotion. Other's attempt to depict what they see and allow you to see it as well. Once again, model railroading fits that as well. But all-in-all we have to look at the attitude of the modeler/artist. Is the modeler looking to get it done with the least amount of work--say the puff-ball trees approach, or is the modeler thinking hard and attempting to portray the "feel" of the area -- as in George Selios's over-use of India ink weathering to increase the feel of poverty, or Malcom Furlow use of whimsy to create an illusion of happy go lucky times. I think that if a modeler creates a scene that draws you in so that you are looking at the entirety of the scene then at the details then back again like you would a work of art, then it has to be art.
Chip
Building the Rock Ridge Railroad with the slowest construction crew west of the Pecos.
My wife was also an artist and she would critique my work and did not pull any punches. This was a great help. I once had a qualified art instructor visit my house and call my work art. Be that as it may, I recently visited a highly rated art gallery in Memphis. They were displaying works from many long time local artists and one exibit combined a barn like structure in approximate HO scale weathered ala John Allen which was intergrated into a conventional artisitic background. It was a very appealing work of art.
My favorite art form is Impressionisim. My goal has been to create an impression of old time steam logging. I have been trying this over many years but so far have failed. I would consider my work to be a 5 on the scale of 10
A number of years ago I was displaying my HOn30 modules at a show. One of the modules there was a scene of Ice cutting on a frozen lake. It was very simple. Just an ice cutter alone with a wagon in the middle of a frozen lake but the impression the scene made was incredible.
Yes I believe model rairoading can be an art form.
Peter Smith, Memphis
I for one call my small self contained micro-layouts "Kinetic Sculpture" and fully consider them "art".
They are self contained creations that are crafted and built by my hand as an expression of my imagination. Explain to me how that is any different than traditional sculpture or art, of course its art.
Malcolm Furlow once said he treated his layouts as "theater", with various viewpoint "stagesets" where the observers view of a scene was deliberately designed to emphisis some aspect of it, say a dangeling trestle or decrepit building. I think this is done far more commonly among all model RRs and also further shows that model RRing can indeed be treated as art or theater.
Lets face it, when we are building our layouts we all want to "show off" our skills and that at the very least means building something we are proud to show off, so that artistic aspect is going to manifest itself despite whether we may or may not consider it "art"
Have fun with your trains
Connecticut Valley Railroad A Branch of the New York, New Haven, and Hartford
"If you think you can do a thing or think you can't do a thing, you're right." -- Henry Ford
Hi guys
Model railroading an art form sorry but err No it is not.
It is creative some will reach the dizzying heights of international recognition most won't.
As to do I want to own a part of one of these modelling greats layouts built by there own hand no.
Though I do have some of the commercial manufactured G&D cars because I like them.
I already own a modelling greats layout mine.
This is just a simple fact because there is not any one member of this forum that does not own
a modelling greats layout (insert your name here).
But I still say a model railroad is not art and never will be.
If its anything its engineering and that is not art
regards John
John I respectfully have to disagree
I have no reservations considering my micro-layouts art, they are the result of a force of action on my part to create a self expression of my desires, whether others admire or dislike is completely inconsequential. Art is in the eye of the creator, as well as the beholder.
Desirability by others has very little to do with whether something is considered art, I have seen a tremendous amount of work called "art" that is about as desirable as getting shingles. Art is what the artist calls art. The art world is chuck full of the good, the bad, the pretentious, the idiotic, the truly horrible. But its all art, there's now even a museum dedicated to celebrating bad art called The Museum of Bad Art (original name huh?) and it houses some incredible crap but is still "art" and some of the bad and the stupid, does sell for idiotic prices, simply because someone thinks its a good investment, not because they like it. So art is art because someone calls it art.
So while others may consider most model RRs engineering or craft, I would say that there have been several layouts that most definetly quality as art, Wescott, Selios, Furlow, Olsen, Allen and others, particularly in the micro layout field, some of the micros being built by others are absolute jewels.
BTW Love Picasso, and Van Gogh, I dare say anyone who doesn't probably has never seen either up close in a museum.
BTW I own a very nice artists copy of this Van Gogh, we call it our Van Faux
The Boston Museum of Fine Arts has a collection of Paul Revere silver, and a collection of colonial furniture. I doubt that either Revere or the colonial cabinetmakers thought of themselves as fine artists. But, a later age thinks their stuff good enough to display in the fine arts museum.
For me, the products of our best workmen, John Allen and George Sellios come to mind, are works of art. My own efforts don't rise to that level and probably never will. But I enjoy the striving.
David Starr www.newsnorthwoods.blogspot.com
Hello Howard,
Some years ago, I acquired your fabulous book about the Piermont Division " My life whith model trains".
You already speak in this book about fine art in model railroading and I completly agree whith You.
It' a versatile hobby, where You need many skills but more important, it's your imagination which construct Your script, in this case Your pike, like a painter which imagine what he is going to paint.
I know very well Your book and I beleive I have read it certainly 20 times.
It serve now as a guide to construct my pike.
Thank You.
Marc from Belgium
AS i am fond of doing, I have so done here:
that is to remind us what the Dictionary definition of terms we use actually IS:.
In this case, THe Webster's New American Dictionary defines "ART" as:
1} a skill acquired by experience or study;
2} a branch of learning, especially the humanities;
3} an occupation requiring knowledge or skill;
4} The use of skill and imagination in the production of things of beauty
If, and I say IF, we consider our models {defined as "being a miniature representation of something"} to be "things of beauty, then , by the fourth definition, it is ART.
What would they be if not?
If we do not consider them things of beauty, then maybe they are "just garbage"?? Would that be correct?? then why, oh why, do we keep them?
It IS obvious that a level of skill of some sort is needed to "create" the "miniature representation" to get it to look "natural" in our mRRing. Varying skills, indeed, are needed to MRR: Wiring, soldering, gluing, painting, building, construction, etc, are all skills needed. SOme master them better than others.
I would argue that even the worst of a "model" {lacking details, size disproportionate to reality} is a "thing of beauty" in its own right.
If scenery actually looks to be a "miniature representation {of nature and citified surroundings"}" then it would be a thing of beauty if we do consider nature and cityscape's to be "things of beauty".
To MY interpretation of the situation presented to us for "mental fodder", MRRING IS ART.
It is creating miniature things of beauty. Two accurate definitions combined.
Now that beauty, or lack thereof, may be in the eye of the beholder, and to some a Pike may just be "garbage" To others, a "thing of beauty".
I would rather err on the side of a "thing of beauty" rather than tell someone their hard work on a layout is "garbage", as, while I can't say I enjoy all forms of "ART", I do not shout "garbage" at a work just because I do not like it!
and some MRRers work IS downright "ART" in its creativity and execution as a "miniature representation of something {1:1}".
-G .
Just my thoughts, ideas, opinions and experiences. Others may vary.
HO and N Scale.
After long and careful thought, they have convinced me. I have come to the conclusion that they are right. The aliens did it.
If you need to justify your time spent in the hobby by calling it art, fine or otherwise, then go ahead and do so. Personally, I think that's just pretentious baloney, but that's only my opinion.
I'll concede that many artistic elements go into model railroading, but it's just a hobby, a pastime. Nothing more.
Some participants are true artisans. In fact, most of us modelers are artisans in one way or another.
But are many of us artists? I don't think so. But hey, if considering yourself one makes you feel better about playing with trains, have at!
Mark P.
Website: http://www.thecbandqinwyoming.comVideos: https://www.youtube.com/user/mabrunton
Years ago when I was attending night school at the local college one of my fellow students was working for a commercial modeling company.
At that time they were very busy assembling a traveling display depicting various scenes of British Columbia starting with the building of the CPR through Rogers Pass as well as a number of large dioramas depicting various logging and mining scenes.
here were also scenes of the old time engine facilities complete with turntables and roundhouse and coal and sand facilities as well as large trestles and snowsheds, Scenes of rail barges being towed across lakes. There was on scene of the Royal Hudson and its coaches running along the Inlet
I was astounded that he was being paid to build model railroad dioramas.
Now those diorama's I would certainly agree were works of art. I and most others who ended up viewing the BC Museum train as it traveled across the Province in 1975.
I remember that many of the dioramas were to have moving locomotives, but with the exhibit being pulled by a steam locomotive across the Province it was decided to make the scenes static.
I remember many of the items ended up being screwed on to the track to keep them from moving.. I wonder where the dioramas ended up?