BRAKIEOn smaller layouts 2 wires to the track will work.
For DC, two wires only works if you are running only one engine.
BRAKIEYou still need blocks oops! power districts for DCC on larger basement size layouts as recommended by the DCC gurus.
You may not understand that DCC power districts are completely different than DC blocks. There are no toggle or rotary switches required. Not to mention how much easier reversing loops are in DCC.
Multiple cab DC is completely different than single engine DC. Have you ever wired a layout for multiple cabs and reversing loops in DC, Brakie? I have. Not fun.
For a single engine 6 turnout switching layout that can only hold one engine anyway, there is less need for DCC. But that is not a general statement for the whole hobby.
John BusbyFor me its a case of I don't understand all this programing and chip control and can't for the life of me see how a $5.00 chip adds up to the same loco costing $150 more.
False. There is no "programming and chip control" needed 99.9% of the time. I enter the loco number and turn the knob. DCC locomotives are certainly _not_ $150 more than DC locomotives, unless you are talking sound, and then the price differential is the same for DC sound as DCC sound.
John BusbyBecause so far no one can tell me how to test it properly how to find faults properly.
Also false. Books exists that describe this in basic terms ... and there are almost never faults to find. I am living proof that a technical incompetent can run DCC easily.
I have much more trouble with my PC.
If you do not want to use DCC, no problem. But making spurious general claims to justify your choice just confuses others who are looking for accurate information.
alco_fan Burlington Northern #24DC and probably not going to change anytime soon, to be honest I feel that DCC is just DC with a couple new flashy additions. That is because you have not yet tried to wire multiple cab DC. Try that once and then come back to us. If your only experience so far is a simple oval with one train running, you will not appreciate the difference.
Burlington Northern #24DC and probably not going to change anytime soon, to be honest I feel that DCC is just DC with a couple new flashy additions.
That is because you have not yet tried to wire multiple cab DC. Try that once and then come back to us.
If your only experience so far is a simple oval with one train running, you will not appreciate the difference.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
alco_fan,
My take on the OP is not that he is "afraid" of technology, but rather he is not convinced it will really make things more fun for him.
My basic point in all these discussions about DC vs DCC is that one should really look at what they PERSONALLY want to accomplish, not at "what others are doing" before investing lots of time or money on ANY control system - advanced DC, or DCC, or DCC with decoder controlled turnouts, computer screen CTC, wireless throttles, sound in every loco, or whatever.
My peer group in our local round robin includes a lot of guys with DCC, and few with highly advanced DCC with CTC/turnout control, etc,etc - and some guys with pretty advanced DC - as well as some with very simple versions of both.
Point is one size does not fit all - and DCC is just one choice in a long list. That is my message to the OP and all readers. All assumptions that everyone is better off "starting" with DCC are false.
Sheldon
John Busby If there is one feature of DCC I despise to the point where rash comment and action could result. It would have to be sound. Particularly at an exhibition when its always too loud and every second layout has it.
If there is one feature of DCC I despise to the point where rash comment and action could result.
It would have to be sound.
Particularly at an exhibition when its always too loud and every second layout has it.
DC sound can also be annoying and DCC sound volume may be adjusted. This point is not cogent to the original posters point.
BroadwayLiondstarrEight trains at once. Impressive. Is that you running them all by hand or is that clever automatic train control doing the running?
dstarrEight trains at once. Impressive. Is that you running them all by hand or is that clever automatic train control doing the running?
Note that they all run at the same speed and in only one direction. That is not what most people want from multiple trains on a layout.
ATLANTIC CENTRALAgain, DCC would not improve or add to these features in any way.
And Sheldons MZL is much more complicated to wire than DCC for train operation, in relation to the original post.
dstarr BroadwayLion dstarrMy home layout is plain old DC. I am the only operator and I can only run one train at a time. LION uses DC. Him has home layout. Him is only operator. Him runs EIGHT trains at one time. Locomotives are operated by LPP, LION sits in interlocking tower and watches the trains go by. ROAR Eight trains at once. Impressive. Is that you running them all by hand or is that clever automatic train control doing the running?
BroadwayLion dstarrMy home layout is plain old DC. I am the only operator and I can only run one train at a time. LION uses DC. Him has home layout. Him is only operator. Him runs EIGHT trains at one time. Locomotives are operated by LPP, LION sits in interlocking tower and watches the trains go by. ROAR
dstarrMy home layout is plain old DC. I am the only operator and I can only run one train at a time.
LION uses DC. Him has home layout. Him is only operator. Him runs EIGHT trains at one time. Locomotives are operated by LPP, LION sits in interlocking tower and watches the trains go by.
ROAR
Eight trains at once. Impressive. Is that you running them all by hand or is that clever automatic train control doing the running?
Personally, running eight trains at once - or even two trains at one - should only be done with automatic train control or separate dedicated routes, or both.
Some may enjoy running two trains at one with their DCC throttle - I will pass.
My layout is structured for lots of different kinds of operation - one of them is a display mode with 4-5 separate routes on which trains can safely travel with minimal attention.
OR - eight opperators and a dispatcher can easily keep eight trains moving,
OR, as those 4-5 trains travel the mainlines on their own, one or two operators can work the industries and yard.
Again, DCC would not improve or add to these features in any way.
It is weird to me that a person using a personal computer to post would think that DCC is too complicated, but to each his own. DCC is no more complicated than a TV remote, certainly not as difficult to use as a PC.
It _can_ be complex, but does not _have_ to be. For my HO modules with NCE, I never opened a manual after the first hour and was running multiple engines the first day. And I am no technical wizard, for sure.
If you want to stay with DC, that is fine, too.
It is clever Analog Automatic Train Control! Layout has no throttles and cannot be controlled that way.
LION sits in his GRS Interlocking Tower, and controls the RAILROAD rather than trains.
If LION does not work the tower, eventually all of the trains will run into a red signal and stop.
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
John Busby Hi If there is one feature of DCC I despise to the point where rash comment and action could result. It would have to be sound. Particularly at an exhibition when its always too loud and every second layout has it. It drives me mad and even on a friends home layout it grates on my nerves. To the point when Hornby many many years ago bought out the chuff chuff in some of its steam locos long before sound was the real next big thing and DCC was not even a sparkle in an engineers thoughts I cut off the little flexible bit of plastic with the abrasive tip and removed the striker and AHHH Heaven!!! the return of silence. regards John
Hi
It drives me mad and even on a friends home layout it grates on my nerves.
To the point when Hornby many many years ago bought out the chuff chuff in some of its steam locos long before sound was the real next big thing and DCC was not even a sparkle in an engineers thoughts
I cut off the little flexible bit of plastic with the abrasive tip and removed the striker and AHHH Heaven!!! the return of silence.
regards John
John, this is an entirely different issue. You could have DC locos with sound bothering everyone in shouting distance exactly the same way. You could have fleets of soundless locos of either type operating with loud-speakers booming train noises under the decks of the layouts. It is why I don't enjoy train shows, and why I won't join a club, among other things...I need my space, my way, and that includes how the sound plays.
Think of it as you would the food section in a large mall. Is that an intimate place to enjoy the fineries of food of all kinds? Nope, it sure as heck ain't. McDonalds is not much better, if at all. Any place where humans aggregate in numbers, whether with like interests or diverse, they all want to be heard. It raises a cacophony of noise, and at train shows, it will have liberal amounts of over-driven 1.25" speakers in plastic boxes trying to be heard. It's idiocy...in my opinion. Although, many enjoy it...so what do I know. Well, I do know that I won't have an HO engine without DCC and sound because, the way I enjoy them works. For me.
Crandell
There are still lots of modelers using DC, as many here have explained.
All reasonable estimates suggest that DCC only has a 40% or 50% market share at best in HO and N scales, and less in other scales.
DCC is a good system, but each modeler should consider his own likes and dislikes regarding sound, his own skills and budget, and his own modeling goals before deciding on a control system.
I still use DC - a very advanced version of DC commonly called Advanced Cab Control, and my version is a modification of a specific system called MZL Control. And I have a signaling system that is a mix between the MZL and Bruce Cubb's original 3 color relay controlled system.
I use DC, but I have wireless throttles, signaling, automatic train control (collision protection), CTC dispatching (simplified) and the layout can be operated in a number of different modes - display, full CTC dispatching, zone control, or walk around control.
My DC system is far more complex to understand and build than most DCC layout installs - it also has features many modelers skip over - DC or DCC - again - signaling, CTC, wireless throttles, ATC, multi mode operations.
I don't have sound, nor do I want it. For me the sound quality and dynamics in small scales like HO are just not acceptable for a number of reasons.
You will find that those modelers who are most "social", have mostly all switched to DCC. Those who belong to round robin groups, clubs, or who like sound see great benefit in DCC. Those modelers who do not carry their trains to clubs, or who operate alone, or with a smaller peer group, are less likely to switch - especially if they don't want sound.
If you do like sound, there is no question DCC is by far the best way to have sound with currently available products. Locos with sound perform very poorly on DC.
And most locos with "dual mode" DCC decoders do not perform well on DC.
To the OP, since you are just returning, take your time, learn about DCC and learn about other control systems - direct radio, advanced cab control - then decide what suits YOUR needs and wants - not just what is "hot" or "pop" this minute.
The DC vs DCC topic comes up on here regularly, and can be a real "hot button" topic. People will accuse those who don't embrace DCC as being "afraid of technology", "cheap", "backwards", etc.
Those still using DC can become understandably defensive, and lash out in return.
None of this is necessary, but too often people think they know better what is good for others - a big problem in out society in general..................
I don't know what is best for others modelers - but I know what my modeling goals and priorities are, and DCC does not significantly add to them, so I don't need or want the added expense and complexity.
The system I use is complex - mainly because of signaling and CTC - DCC would not make it one bit simpler.
DCC, at great additional expense in my case, would give me a few extra features, but they are features not necessary in my view. For me DCC would easily add $5000 to my layout building costs, and the only DCC feature that would really enhance my operations would be independent control of locos in the engine terminal without "sub sections". And it would add unwanted complexity to MU'ed diesels and double headed steam.
Don't beleive my cost estimate? I have 135 locos - none currently have decoders, when complete my layout will have12 scale miles of track, and support 30 staged trains, eight operators.
135 x $25 (any quality non sound decoder) = $3375
I have eight wireless throttles:
8 x $159.00 (CVP T5000E) = $1272
Power and command:
command station, wireless base, zone masters, etc = $429 plus
$3375 + $1272 + 429 = $5076
Now understand this, I am in no way willing to change my modeling goals, delay the conversion of all my locos, eliminate the cost of my signaling and CTC, or otherwise compromise my previous modeling plans just to be part of the "in crowd".
And I use lots of "technology" - new and old - solid state radio throttles and detectors, regulated power supplies, LED lighting, pulse width motor control, ice cube control relays, LED lighted push buttons, X section control, one button route control, multi location turnout control, high frequency carrier signals, etc, etc.
Happy to march to my own drum,
DC and probably not going to change anytime soon, to be honest I feel that DCC is just DC with a couple new flashy additions.
SP&S modeler, 1960's give or take a decade or two for some equipment.
http://www.youtube.com/user/SGTDUPREY?feature=guide
Gary DuPrey
N scale model railroader
David Starr www.newsnorthwoods.blogspot.com
Dan...
These are only my opinions...
The title of the thread says a lot. The concept of "being left behind" is a message that gets delivered to a potential buyer, from many different sources, to convince them they should buy something new. That tactic is used in a lot of products. It can really clutter-up the decision making process.
It sounds like you are partially struggling with comparing what you know and are satisfied with; with the possibility of missing out on something.
To summarize the choice, if you run your layout in such a way that you are flipping a lot of toggles to keep multiple trains moving at the same time, you will probably benefit a lot from DCC. If you run one train at a time, some modelers find, like myself, that there is little benefit to DCC as a operating system. That's a very simple summary.
Sometimes, it comes down to whether or not you are going to build a new layout, or are just tired of what you have and want to try something new. In those cases, many people may choose to go with the current technology.
If you are satisfied with your DC layout and equipment, there is probably no real reason to change, or to be concerned about being left behind.
I enjoy some of the aspects of onboard sound in HO scale, so I have a basic DCC starter system to run some of those locomotives. Others use the MRC Tech 6 to run one or two dual mode locomotives. Since I run one train at a time, I don't use the DCC system when I am operating the nonsound locomotives, but toggle the layout over to the DC power pack controlled by my DC Aristo Craft wireless throttle.
Hope this was helpful.
- Douglas
I run DC. Have all the equipment for DCC, perhaps once all my DCC stuff becomes out dated I'll do it....
I think it depends on whether you choose to emphasize "model" or "railroad". DCC obviously offers tremendous operating potential. However if you enjoy weathering, scenery building, exquisite amounts of detail, etc. I think you can get by just fine without DCC.
This old/new dichotomy seems to occur in many hobbies/pastimes -
model airplanes (traditional stick/tissue rubber power, control line, R/C jets & helicopters),
archery (traditional stick bows, Olympic Recurve, compound bows)
electronics ( traditional tube rigs ["hollow state"], analog solid state, digital solid state)
[Your other hobbies here]
The point being you should do what you enjoy and brings you happiness. Whatever it takes to get lost in our own little worlds for a few hours.
You are definitely not alone. I am still running DC. I have built some transistor throttles rather than buy the more expensive MRC type power packs. If something does go bad with the throttle, I'll just built a new one because I have no knowledge on how to repair it and the parts are cheap.
Turnout control is still twin coil switch machines. I have split the layout into two blocks so that a visitor (generally a grandkid) can run one train while I run the other. I do have one dual mode engine with sound just for experimentation. Not overly impressed with the sound so I keep it turned down very low. I will say I am impressed with the slow speed performance but most of my engines can run as slowly as I need them to on DC. I just don't don't see a need to run an engine at one tie per minute.
Just my 2 cents. Your mileage may vary. See dealer for details.
Tom
Life is simple - eat, drink, play with trains!
Go Big Red!
PA&ERR "If you think you are doing something stupid, you're probably right!"
I decided to run DC because I really really don't want to disassemble all of my loco's and re-solder them. Some of them run good but probably are unconvertable, some of them I made from RPP shells and A-line or Overland drives and I just don't want to handle them that way! The cost factor is obvious, I don't really care about sound, and I'd rather put that extra money into more buildings, cars, trucks, peeps and scenery.
"Left behind" describes companies like BLI and MTH and others who only make 1 style of product geared for the DCC market only exclusive of us DC modelers who think that paying over $200 for a plastic engine is ridiculous and unnecessary since they're all made in the same Chinese factories anyway.
Mine doesn't move.......it's at the station!!!
I went to DCC about 6 years ago and I have to say it has it’s drawbacks along with its good points. I converted about 15 engines from BB Athearns to late model not DCC ready Bachmann’s and P2Ks. When I had my larger two main line layout the need for DCC really wasn’t there I could have easily built a block system and isolated the spurs and sidings. But, and the best part of the DCC is at 60 years old at the time I built the layout I only had to run a few feeders under the layout and I was done and my worn out knees and back thanked me for that.
I now have downsized my home and only have an 18”x 13’ switching layout with 14 turnouts and I run three engines most of the time. In this configuration DCC is great two wires to the main and I was done no need for any blocks as I control the engines not the tracks.
The downside to DCC is if the engine doesn’t run well on DC it will really run lousy on DCC and trouble shooting can be troublesome.
PC Rich
I use whatever works best for what I want to do. I still run my HO trains with DC, I run my S trains with DCC and sound, and my Lionels with AC and sound. The biggest advantages to DCC for me are simplified wiring and radio throttles for walk around control and sound. (But some folks find they can do walkaround with DC just fine as well. This is due to some new systems not available 10 years ago.) OTH DC is cheaper and works just fine when I want to sit and just watch the HO trains run around, same for the Lionels with AC.
Enjoy
Paul
Southgate - you are definitively not alone!
Although I like DCC a lot, my previous and my future layout are DC "only". The reason? My layouts are actually fairly simple, in terms of track plan, as I put more emphasis on scenery and visual aspects. I usually run only one loco at a time, as I model short lines. It just would not be worth the trouble to convert to DCC!
Don't let the on line hype misguide you..They are still thousand of modelers still using older Athearn wide body locomotives that doesn't worry about the so called "growl"..There are many modelers that lament the passing of Athearn car kits...
Well said Larry. For those who want DCC and the added expense, more power to you but stop trying to convince DC users that they have to change. It used to be that kids used their imaginations when playing with trains and everything did not have to be like prototype. I can run my trains and "hear" the sounds even though none of them have decoders, sound cards and the like.
If DCC has one objection for me, it's that the technology make it virtually impossible to do self-repairs on a disabled locomotive. And that is more important than you think in this day and age where in many communities the LHS has pretty much dried up and blown away. Your locomotive comes from China or Vietnam or Singapore, and when it breaks that's where you have to send it back to for repairs. (Admittedly I may be exaggerating a little with that last point.)
I have two DCC steam locomotives on my On30 layout, they have run fine for two or three years. But last winter they started behaving strangely, both at about the same time. Both of them act like they are binding; hitching, starting and stopping, and when they do get going it's full-speed at a crawl. (Which would probably cause many people to congratulate me on my prototypical operations?) The problem could be with the mechanism, or the motor. But it could also be in the decoder or the controller and those items I have no way to troubleshoot.
On the other side of my hobby I own five vintage S-scale locomotives that are 40-to 50 years old and run like tops. The steamers have smoke, chuff (synchronized), and one even a whistle. And if any one of those devices breaks I am confident in my abilities to repair them. KISS is still a valid principle in my opinion.
I have figured out what is wrong with my brain! On the left side nothing works right, and on the right side there is nothing left!
Southgate I am getting back to my model RR after about 6 years out of action. I never have bitten the bullet on getting into DCC. I still run even '70's Athearn engines, (with improved wheels and wiring), and even rather enjoy the growling sound they make. I can live with the wide bodies. I do have some P2K and Spectrum locos too. quite a few of my freight cars are Athearn kits. I do enjoy making poor running models work better, and I am pretty picky about how things run on my layout. If an engine or turnout is problematic, it doesn't get used. I hand lay my switches with powered frogs (code 70). All are activated by hand pulled rods, using slide switches under the layout for tension and frog polarity. All couplers are Kadee. Still, It seems that DCC is so dominant now. Are there still any modelers running DC, and using low tech approaches to the hobby where more high end products are so common? Dan
I am getting back to my model RR after about 6 years out of action. I never have bitten the bullet on getting into DCC. I still run even '70's Athearn engines, (with improved wheels and wiring), and even rather enjoy the growling sound they make. I can live with the wide bodies. I do have some P2K and Spectrum locos too. quite a few of my freight cars are Athearn kits.
I do enjoy making poor running models work better, and I am pretty picky about how things run on my layout. If an engine or turnout is problematic, it doesn't get used. I hand lay my switches with powered frogs (code 70). All are activated by hand pulled rods, using slide switches under the layout for tension and frog polarity. All couplers are Kadee.
Still, It seems that DCC is so dominant now. Are there still any modelers running DC, and using low tech approaches to the hobby where more high end products are so common?
Dan
My home layout is plain old DC. I am the only operator and I can only run one train at a time. DCC is great for allowing multiple operators run multiple trains on the same track without fiddling with block controls. Since I never do that, I don't need DCC. I'm wired for two cab control, and should another operator turn up, I might install the second cab. I have a single track main with passing sidings. It's not too hard to flip a toggle switch OFF on a passing siding to keep the train from moving while another train uses the main.
Plus the thought of installing decoders in my locomotive fleet is daunting.
Dan:
Nope, you're not alone by any means. My dad & I built our first layout together way back in 1960, when I was 12 years old. I had a ball with it until the mid to late 60's, by which time, like most guys in their mid to late teens, my main focus switched to girls, cars & rock & roll.
I'm 65 now, getting ready to retire soon & last year I decided to get back into the hobby. I'm building my dream layout, based on the Bangor & Aroostook in Northern Maine. It's a good sized layout with outside dimensions of 20' x 8' x 12'. And it's all good ol' DC!
I did a lot of studying & reading up before starting out & decided DCC was not for me. I'm on a budget for one thing & I agree that the addition of a few computerized chips does not warrant the cost difference on so many DCC locos. It also strikes me that DCC' ers spend an awful lot of time, money & hassle programming, re-programming, having to up-grade brand new, just bought equipment, changing this node or that module etc, etc. I guess I'm old school, but to my way of thinking, one shouldn't have to do all of that with brand new equipment. For the money they get for it, as far as I'm concerned, it darn well better do what it's supposed to do, and in the way it's supposed to do it, right out of the box.......or it's going back!
Like you, I enjoy building stuff & working on landscaping, scenery, structures & building rolling stock. My current fleet consists of 6 locos & about 50 pieces of rolling stock, about 2/3 of which I built from kits. I don't need DCC to do that & my railroad can do just about anything I want it to do on DC. Nothing wrong with going DCC if one wants to do so. It's just a question of personal preference and I'm personally quite comfortable with DC. Having fun & enjoying your layout is the main thing, in whichever way you choose to go with it.
Carl
"I could never belong to any club that would have me as a member."
Southgate Still, It seems that DCC is so dominant now. Are there still any modelers running DC, and using low tech approaches to the hobby where more high end products are so common? Dan
Dan,There is far more DC users then DCC users based on the fact the manufacturers are still producing DCC ready locomotives and decoder manfacturers are still producing dual mode sound decoders...MRC Tech 6 power pack is dual mode..There is five HO clubs within 30 miles of where I live none are DCC.
Don't let the on line hype misguide you..They are still thousand of modelers still using older Athearn wide body locomotives that doesn't worry about the so called "growl"..There are many modelers that lament the passing of Athearn car kits...I still like and use Athearn GP7s.I still have my collection of Athearn and MDC cars.
I have one DCC/Sound equiped locomotive..I use MRC's Tech 6 in the DCC mode for that one engine..90% of the time the Tech 6 stays in DC mode.
BTW..My modeling style is the one I been using for at least 50 years-close enough/good enough.I did try "advanced modeling" for five years and decided I wasn't happy with that style.
I have a friend who was an early adopter of DCC on his N Scale layout.. His layout was featured in Model Railroader, but I don't remember if it was DC or DCC at that time.
He also ground loco frames to accept decoders for himself and for a company that sold the frames (send them a stock N scale loco frame and some money and they would send you a frame modified to accept a decoder) This was when there were no DCC equipped or ready locomotives.
After a few years of DCC on his layout, he returned to DC operation. He explained that because of the way the layout was designed and built and the way he operated it, DCC was unnecessary and it did not enhance the operation.
He has since retired from his job and moved to another State where he is involved with a well known large modular/sectional club layout that uses DCC exclusively.
---------
I am primairly a N scaler (got my first N scale in 1968) and have more than 50 "good" locomotives. Very few have decoders, but they can be run either DC or DCC. I do not plan to go DCC.
I tried to sell my two cents worth, but no one would give me a plug nickel for it.
I don't have a leg to stand on.