Call me caveman but I sometimes use primitive stuff on my layout. When I had a foam layout surface pop up, I glued it back down, and weighted it with a 12,000 year old fossilized mammoth thighbone.
<sigh> Another lively Saturday afternoon DC/DCC discussion.
It warms the heart...
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
did I say something about wiring multi cab DC? I don't remember making a comment about it, I remember saying that DC and DCC perform the same/ or similar task.
Yeah I'll admit I'm having a bugger of a time trying to figure out atlas' book, I Kalmbachs it's not any easier to understand. one thing that has me confused is that there is a wire going from one power pack to another.
SP&S modeler, 1960's give or take a decade or two for some equipment.
http://www.youtube.com/user/SGTDUPREY?feature=guide
Gary DuPrey
N scale model railroader
If you feel left behind(or think you might feel left behind) or your pals say you're being left behind, or you heard a catchy slogan saying "Don't be left behind" or you read an op ed saying you'll be left behind, and this somehow moves you to action, do this:
Try something new. Dabble. Tinker. Learn how DCC works. Then master it.
Be curious, like when you were a kid. My kids remind me of how awesome the world can be with a sense of wonder and curiosity. Apply that to your model railroad control system of choice.
If you do try it, and even if you end up not enjoying DCC, at least you'll be better informed.
Burlington Northern #24read and understand atlas' guide to wiring
Just my opinion, but Atlas approach is not an intuitive way to wire a layout. You would be better off with a Kalmbach book and using toggles than the Atlas system.
Burlington Northern #24 feel free to pick apart my work. My first layout wasn't good, one train operation, a half decent track work, decent scenery, and it looked mediocre compared to some stuff here. I'll admit it, it wasn't good but it was better than nothing.
feel free to pick apart my work.
My first layout wasn't good, one train operation, a half decent track work, decent scenery, and it looked mediocre compared to some stuff here. I'll admit it, it wasn't good but it was better than nothing.
You missed my point. I applaud your start. We all started there (except maybe Sheldon). It is better than sitting on the sidelines.
All I said was that it has not, so far, given you the background to make a definitive comment about wiring multiple cab DC.
Keep going!
alco_fan ATLANTIC CENTRALWhat personal knowledge of Burlington Northern #24's previous layout wiring experience do you have? His posts here of a simple oval on the floor with one train running. You might take a look.
ATLANTIC CENTRALWhat personal knowledge of Burlington Northern #24's previous layout wiring experience do you have?
His posts here of a simple oval on the floor with one train running. You might take a look.
OK, I give up. All I was trying to do is answer the inaccurate information being posted about DCC.
Obviously facts are less important than opinion, even uninformed opinion, here.
There is nothing wrong with that as a start, we were all there once. But it does not provide the background to make statements about wiring multiple cab DC.
alco_fan Burlington Northern #24I don't understand why it's getting pushed so hard that those of us who don't wish to partake in DCC must be forced into being assimilated into DCC. I am not saying that, you did not read my posts. If you want to stay DC, do that by all means. I have said that multiple times. Read my posts. But until you personally wire a layout with _multiple cab_ DC with _independent control_ of the trains _anywhere_ on the layout, you do not know what is involved, trust me. So you do not have the experience to make the assertion that DC and DCC are "the same".
Burlington Northern #24I don't understand why it's getting pushed so hard that those of us who don't wish to partake in DCC must be forced into being assimilated into DCC.
I am not saying that, you did not read my posts. If you want to stay DC, do that by all means. I have said that multiple times. Read my posts.
But until you personally wire a layout with _multiple cab_ DC with _independent control_ of the trains _anywhere_ on the layout, you do not know what is involved, trust me. So you do not have the experience to make the assertion that DC and DCC are "the same".
as for fur flying between the two sides I think it was just me and alco fan really going at it.
What personal knowledge of Burlington Northern #24's previous layout wiring experience do you have?
"easy" and "difficult" are mostly a matter of perception.
Sheldon
Doughless Southgate I am getting back to my model RR after about 6 years out of action. I never have bitten the bullet on getting into DCC. I still run even '70's Athearn engines, (with improved wheels and wiring), and even rather enjoy the growling sound they make. I can live with the wide bodies. I do have some P2K and Spectrum locos too. quite a few of my freight cars are Athearn kits. I do enjoy making poor running models work better, and I am pretty picky about how things run on my layout. If an engine or turnout is problematic, it doesn't get used. I hand lay my switches with powered frogs (code 70). All are activated by hand pulled rods, using slide switches under the layout for tension and frog polarity. All couplers are Kadee. Still, It seems that DCC is so dominant now. Are there still any modelers running DC, and using low tech approaches to the hobby where more high end products are so common? Dan It sounds to me that the OP is not "afraid" of anything, including a complex layout. He also seems quite knowledgeable of things, and willing to implement things himself. It sounds to me that he has investigated some aspects of DCC, and can't quite figure out what the advantage is; which then leads to him possibly questioning why its so popular. There is an element to the post that speaks about more to his approach to the hobby than it asks about the specific qualities of operating systems; possibly wondering if his approach to the hobby is different than others as measured by the observation that he hasn't caught the dcc bug. But its not just about dcc, its about the high end products too. He mentions enjoying the athearn growl, compared to perhaps more expensive and "advanced" quieter running stock. Its about having a low tech approach to the hobby, and not necessarily buying into the notion that more features, details, or advanced products makes the hobby more enjoyable. Just my take on it.
Southgate I am getting back to my model RR after about 6 years out of action. I never have bitten the bullet on getting into DCC. I still run even '70's Athearn engines, (with improved wheels and wiring), and even rather enjoy the growling sound they make. I can live with the wide bodies. I do have some P2K and Spectrum locos too. quite a few of my freight cars are Athearn kits. I do enjoy making poor running models work better, and I am pretty picky about how things run on my layout. If an engine or turnout is problematic, it doesn't get used. I hand lay my switches with powered frogs (code 70). All are activated by hand pulled rods, using slide switches under the layout for tension and frog polarity. All couplers are Kadee. Still, It seems that DCC is so dominant now. Are there still any modelers running DC, and using low tech approaches to the hobby where more high end products are so common? Dan
I am getting back to my model RR after about 6 years out of action. I never have bitten the bullet on getting into DCC. I still run even '70's Athearn engines, (with improved wheels and wiring), and even rather enjoy the growling sound they make. I can live with the wide bodies. I do have some P2K and Spectrum locos too. quite a few of my freight cars are Athearn kits.
I do enjoy making poor running models work better, and I am pretty picky about how things run on my layout. If an engine or turnout is problematic, it doesn't get used. I hand lay my switches with powered frogs (code 70). All are activated by hand pulled rods, using slide switches under the layout for tension and frog polarity. All couplers are Kadee.
Still, It seems that DCC is so dominant now. Are there still any modelers running DC, and using low tech approaches to the hobby where more high end products are so common?
Dan
It sounds to me that the OP is not "afraid" of anything, including a complex layout. He also seems quite knowledgeable of things, and willing to implement things himself.
It sounds to me that he has investigated some aspects of DCC, and can't quite figure out what the advantage is; which then leads to him possibly questioning why its so popular.
There is an element to the post that speaks about more to his approach to the hobby than it asks about the specific qualities of operating systems; possibly wondering if his approach to the hobby is different than others as measured by the observation that he hasn't caught the dcc bug.
But its not just about dcc, its about the high end products too. He mentions enjoying the athearn growl, compared to perhaps more expensive and "advanced" quieter running stock.
Its about having a low tech approach to the hobby, and not necessarily buying into the notion that more features, details, or advanced products makes the hobby more enjoyable.
Just my take on it.
Funny, I got that same take, not the alco_fan view at all.
Has the OP even come back and responded to the feedback or just made a topic and let the fur fly between the DC lovers and the DCC lovers.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
- Douglas
alco_fan Burlington Northern #24"same task" running the trains, that is the purpose of the systems is it not. By your thinking, then, a bicycle is the same as a jumbo jet, in that they share the "same task" of moving a person from point A to point B. Exercises in semantics are not helpful in building a layout, young Jedi. You will learn.
Burlington Northern #24"same task" running the trains, that is the purpose of the systems is it not.
By your thinking, then, a bicycle is the same as a jumbo jet, in that they share the "same task" of moving a person from point A to point B.
Exercises in semantics are not helpful in building a layout, young Jedi. You will learn.
BRAKIEI was talking about a small DCC layout not DC.
Then we are in agreement, DCC is easy.
BRAKIEThey still have a off/on toggle switch that covers that " power district"..These are used to isolate the layout and for troubleshooting a electrical short.
That is a specious comparison, it is not the same at all. If those toggles _do_exist, they are never touched in normal operation, completely different than DC with multiple cabs. Yet another false point.
alco_fan Burlington Northern #24that's what I'm trying to do but my point still stands, it performs essentially the same task that DC does. Just stating your point again does not make it valid, sorry. When you have personally experienced wiring a layout for _multiple cabs_ with _independent_ train control in DC, you will understand the difference and will be better able to make an informed comment on the matter. Staying with DC is fine. But claiming that DCC and DC are "essentially the same" is not accurate.
Burlington Northern #24that's what I'm trying to do but my point still stands, it performs essentially the same task that DC does.
Just stating your point again does not make it valid, sorry. When you have personally experienced wiring a layout for _multiple cabs_ with _independent_ train control in DC, you will understand the difference and will be better able to make an informed comment on the matter.
Staying with DC is fine. But claiming that DCC and DC are "essentially the same" is not accurate.
BRAKIEOn smaller layouts 2 wires to the track will work.
For DC, two wires only works if you are running only one engine.
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I was talking about a small DCC layout not DC.
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You may not understand that DCC power districts are completely different than DC blocks. There are no toggle or rotary switches required. Not to mention how much easier reversing loops are in DCC.
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They still have a off/on toggle switch that covers that " power district"..These are used to isolate the layout and for troubleshooting a electrical short.
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Multiple cab DC is completely different than single engine DC. Have you ever wired a layout for multiple cabs and reversing loops in DC, Brakie? I have. Not fun.
I've wired blocks on some of my layouts using a Atlas selector and wired a reverse loop using a Atlas controller.I find these are simplest forms of DC wiring for multiple train operation.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
Sheldon, you keep comparing complex MZL to the sorts of DC multiple cab layouts that can be built by mere mortals
Anyone with reasonable skills in this hobby can build MZL - Ed Ravenscroft carefully documented it in Model Railroader, and those articles are still available on the MR CD, and all the products needed are readily available. If you can hard wire a decoder, you could build my system - you would just have to take some time to learn it - just like it takes time to learn about DCC - no different. And agreed, DCC can be as simple or complex as one desires - so can DC - it is all GOAL dependant.
That is a false comparison, since the original poster wants to keep things simple.
Again, you are reading things into the OP's comments that are not there. Maybe he does want simple - maybe he only wants to run one train at a time - in that case he does not need DCC or Advanced Cab Control.
And I don't have any trouble with my PC, or the TV remote, or the Programmable Controllers I was programing in 1980, or my home automation system, or the GPS and Blue Tooth in the dash of my car - but I don't need DCC - or a smart phone.
PS - I only have time for this on rare occasions - Monday I will be working.
DSchmittHe purchased a computer program that is supposed to simplify the coding of the decoders but two weeks latter has not been able to get it to work properly on any of his computers even with help from some computer nerd friends.
I have never needed a computer to do anything with DCC, nor have the majority of DCC users.
Sheldon, you keep comparing complex MZL to the sorts of DC multiple cab layouts that can be built by mere mortals That is a false comparison, since the original poster wants to keep things simple.
Yes, I am sure that you have a fine layout, you tell us so all the time. But there can no argument that MZL is _much less_ accessible to the average person than is DCC. Full stop.
For you to portray what you have done as simply "good old DC" is not accurate.
I have made zero false statements about multiple cab DC, especially with reversing loops. It requires either toggle or rotary switches for each block (more complex to wire than DCC) or a system like MZL (much more complex to install than DCC) or wireless decoders in each engine like RailPro (proprietary and just as hard to install as DCC decoders).
ATLANTIC CENTRALThe Lion has one set of goals, Larry has another with his ISL, and I have another. Surely you cannot think that "everyone else" has your set of goals?
I did not say that they did. All I am saying is that _multiple cab_ DC with _independent_ control of each train is more challenging for most people than DCC. _Admitted_ outliers do not define the world either.
But since you and the monk and the brakie clearly have much more time to post the same thing over and over and over than I do to reply, I give up trying to counter the incomplete information.
alco_fan It is weird to me that a person using a personal computer to post would think that DCC is too complicated, but to each his own. DCC is no more complicated than a TV remote, certainly not as difficult to use as a PC.
It is weird to me that a person using a personal computer to post would think that DCC is too complicated, but to each his own. DCC is no more complicated than a TV remote, certainly not as difficult to use as a PC.
My 3 yo grandson reprogramed the TV, 6 months latter we still have not been able to restore all the functions.
A friend is building his 3rd HO layout with DCC. He loves what he can do with it, but gets very fustrated when a loco that worked previously quits for no apparent reason and has to be reprogrammed.
He purchased a computer program that is supposed to simplify the coding of the decoders but two weeks latter has not been able to get it to work properly on any of his computers even with help from some computer nerd friends.
I tried to sell my two cents worth, but no one would give me a plug nickel for it.
I don't have a leg to stand on.
alco_fan Burlington Northern #24DC and probably not going to change anytime soon, to be honest I feel that DCC is just DC with a couple new flashy additions. That is because you have not yet tried to wire multiple cab DC. Try that once and then come back to us. If your only experience so far is a simple oval with one train running, you will not appreciate the difference.
Burlington Northern #24DC and probably not going to change anytime soon, to be honest I feel that DCC is just DC with a couple new flashy additions.
That is because you have not yet tried to wire multiple cab DC. Try that once and then come back to us.
If your only experience so far is a simple oval with one train running, you will not appreciate the difference.
alco_fan,
I agree, no one should make false statements about DCC.
Same is true for DC. False statements include the idea that all multi train separate control of locos requires "flipping" toggles or rotary switches.
ALL the really good DC control systems require only minimal operation of electrical switches as the trains progress.
I am not responsible for all the poorly designed DC systems you have incountered or built, but my layout does not use any "block toggles".
All the good DC systems for multi train operation on medium to large layouts involve dispatchers, and/or some sort of semi automatic progressive "section" (block) control, and logical route control through turnout position.
So I will not make false statements about DCC, if you stop making them about DC.
And, you are making lots of assumptions about other modelers goals, but it is very clear that those goals VARY GREATLY.
The Lion has one set of goals, Larry has another with his ISL, and I have another. Surely you cannot think that "everyone else" has your set of goals? Trust me they do not.
For many modelers DCC is a great choice - but for just as many or more it is just a headache and extra expense.
On my layout, or my friends layout with the same control system, four trains operate on the main and operators walk along with their train, controlled by a wireless throttle, turnouts are aligned, one or two push buttons are pushed at each "town" or "tower" (equal to every 3-4 signal blocks of operating territory) and the four trains move independently, in opposing directions, meet and pass each other with no problems, and all with no "frantic toggle flipping" - and it includes reverse loops - fully automated.
All with no little brains in the locos or black boxes under the layout. Simply amazing!
No your not alone, I am building a new layout and will running only one or two trains at a time. There are controllers like the one from USA trains. A switch changes what scale it is being used on. G, HO and Nscale. It has controllable momentum which mean if you are pulling just a couple of cars you can have low momentum, start a long train and adjusts the momentum to full and the train takes longer. It is controlled from a walk around thottle. The model is a train power 10. The one draw back from DC and DCC is that most controllers will only run one train where DCC can controll several. What manufactures need to do is change that. Both the MRC 20, and talking to them a new controller is coming soon for DC but will still control one train.
BroadwayLionIt is true, of course, but you cannot tell that.
That is not the point of this thread. What works for your very unique situation is not generally going to please 99.9% of the model railroading public.
alco_fanNote that they all run at the same speed and in only one direction. That is not what most people want from multiple trains on a layout.
It is true, of course, but you cannot tell that. The mane lion (Broadway Local) is nine (scale) miles long, trains slow down, they stop, the speed up, and run at about 30 miles per hour. Trains can be dispatched from the terminal every three minutes. It takes 20 minutes for them to run the course before they must brought back into the terminal at 242nd Street.
The 242nd Street terminal is only two tracks, one train must leave before another can be allowed to enter.
LION also run MOW trains. You must walk along with the MOW train and operate a control at each station where you want it to stop and stay, and then you must release it manually. The automatic signal system will protect the rear of the train, but will do nothing to calm the wrath of the Little Plastic Commuters (LPC)s. We run these at night when the pax trains are running on a 20 minute headway.
ROAR
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS