In the chain of manufacuter locationss, no one has yet mentioned Austria (where Atlas models were made for years) or Denmark (where Walthers building kits had been made for years).
Paul A. Cutler III
Chip
I'm sure you remember back 5 or so years ago there always seemed to be much hand wringing about "expensive" locos, rolling stock, etc. (still is ) Now in my mind, (and many others), the quality and details of these locomotives had increased so much from the clunky old days we were happy to pay more. The plastic/hybrid models ran so well, and the details so good, it caused the brass market to crash. Still, many were/are complaining about the cost.
Two years ago Bachmann came out with an HO "sound value" Alco 2-6-0, with a Tsunami sound decoder that had several sounds missing (coupler clank is one) from the standard off the shelf Tsunami decoder. This loco had a LIST price $205.00, and can be found on line for $125.00. This is a non-Spectrum loco, but trust me, it runs like one, and has a quality decoder in it.
http://www.bachmanntrains.com/home-usa/products.php?act=viewProd&productId=4208
I expected quite a response from the model railroad world, but it didn't seem to generate much excitement. Bachmann (and others) have always been hit or miss, but the warranty protects you if you buy a problem.
I think it's minority that complains about expensive items, the rest of us just chug along. The Chinese quality is no better or worse than most.
"The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge but imagination."-Albert Einstein
http://gearedsteam.blogspot.com/
A thoughtful discussion on this topic. Good for us!
Mention of the likely more rigorous QC measures taken by the Japanese and other commentary is an important point of understanding that is frequently overlooked. The Chinese can manufacture products of any quality and do -- and it's the importer's job to make sure the shipments they receive meet those standards.
Thus, the thread's title might be more accurately termed "Chinese Manufacturing and American Quality Control."
QC is like any other input. It costs money. No one builds perfect stuff, at least not for hobby stuff that needs delicate assembly. If someone just has decided you'll have to call them to replace that funky job of a tank car you were so eagerly awaiting, so be it. Don't blame that Chinese gal or guy that may be working 90+ hour weeks -- or even his boss. The QC game is all determined right here in the good ol' USA.
As for model railroading manufacturing moving on from China...probably not anytime soon. Bachmann is Chinese and the biggest thing on the block. They might subcontract work elsewhere eventually. But it's not just trained workers -- seriously, how much training is needed for sticking handrails on, it's drudge work that Americans prefer to pay for someone else doing? It's infrastructure, transportation, business services. All in short supply in the most likely places. I've seen attempts at producing in India, for instance, and it's a LOT harder than you think from start-up. And who's going to invest in those places knowing they're in head-to-head competition from the start with Bachmann? That's a rough row to hoe. It could happen, but most of us won't live to see it.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
cacole There have been reports that some model train manufacturers in China are looking to move to other countries because an improved standard of living in China is beginning to have an effect on labor and raw material costs. Countries that are reportedly being considered are Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos, India, Bangladesh, and other countries in that geographical region. The main sticking point has been the lack of skilled labor in those countries and the high cost of training potential employees.
There have been reports that some model train manufacturers in China are looking to move to other countries because an improved standard of living in China is beginning to have an effect on labor and raw material costs.
Countries that are reportedly being considered are Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos, India, Bangladesh, and other countries in that geographical region.
The main sticking point has been the lack of skilled labor in those countries and the high cost of training potential employees.
As has been mentioned before, lower cost manufacturing was in Japan at one time, then moved to South Korea and then China. I assume this migration occured due to improved standard of living and higher cost of labor. Since this cycle is reaching it's zenith again, I would expect even now, companies are in the process of developing skilled labor in those countries which will be the next low cost labor markets. Its only a matter of time.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
DoughlessI suspect that greater than 50% of the new products are now purchased off of the internet.
Pretty much everything I purchase is off the Internet because hobby shops were scarce here in Podunk--with the exception of the occasional train show.
Building the Rock Ridge Railroad with the slowest construction crew west of the Pecos.
Remember,the day's,when most of what we purchased,whether,it be,model's,clothing,etc..The label,or stamp,,said,, Made in Japan,,,we thought,,,yuk!! Now it's say's,, Made in China and we go,,yuk,yuk and yuk!!
I believe it will continue,in year's to come,,,,,Who is responsible?? Don't know,, but I WILL BET,the reason behind it is,again,,, money,,,profits,
Cheers,to all,,
Frank
Paul,
Thanks for your info. Now this, perhaps, explains why the HO New Haven Pullman Standard light weight equipment from River Point Station has been delayed for a long stretch now (weren't they due in 2012?)
"I like my Pullman Standards & Budds in Stainless Steel flavors, thank you!"
SpaceMouse DoughlessThe only choice we can make is to buy products where the quality/price/availability components are aligned with what we think is appropriate. You are right. The nature of the OP was me trying to get the lay of the land. I'm soon going to be starting a new layout from the ground up and I might make some of my choices based upon how easy it will be to get some of the materials I'll need to to model what I want. I can't imagine scratch-building a Dash 9 and having it run, let alone be recognizable.
DoughlessThe only choice we can make is to buy products where the quality/price/availability components are aligned with what we think is appropriate.
You are right. The nature of the OP was me trying to get the lay of the land. I'm soon going to be starting a new layout from the ground up and I might make some of my choices based upon how easy it will be to get some of the materials I'll need to to model what I want. I can't imagine scratch-building a Dash 9 and having it run, let alone be recognizable.
Yes.
Chip, I don't know how much of the forum you've read in the time you've been absent, but there have been a lot of threads on quality, and Chinese production; many of which get into some lengthy and emotional discussions.
I'm not sure that a quality control problem in our hobby is necessarily synonymous with Chinese manufacturing. The WAY in which we by our models has changed too, which may have contributed to the problem.
I suspect that greater than 50% of the new products are now purchased off of the internet. That is to say, we buy our products by typing on our keyboards, then going to our front door to open a package that contains our model. That's really all we do.
Back in the day, modeler's would look at and test a product at the LHS before it reached their front door. How many customers would have brought home an Athearn GP15 that growled, or something else that had missing grab irons, etc?
That product would have gone unsold, rather than what happens today; which is a sale, then a complaint later.
The way in which we now buy our models tends to eliminate the quality control step we all used to make when we bought things from the hobby shop. That step will still be missing regardless of where the product is produced.
I know, I know, now I've drifted OT and switched to tired subjects like "pre-order" and the "demise of the LHS", but they really are all sort of related.
- Douglas
Yes, this has been discussed before--but one thing Americans consistently fail to grasp is that model train manufacturing is not going to come back to the U.S.
When Japan became expensive, American importers (including but not limited to the brass model importers) went to South Korea. When South Korea became too expensive, they moved to China (except some, like I believe MTH, are still in South Korea). Somewhere along the way, the toy manufacturers and the model train manufacturers also moved to China.
Once the average wage becomes too expensive in China, you can bet the toy and model train manufacturers will go to some other emerging country, but they will most likely not be coming back here, at least not for actual production.
John
The issue of Chinese QA or the lack of it has been discussed numerous times in this forum. I am a little reluctant to add to this topic, as it is an inflammatory one.
Up until recently, I was into modeling Japanese prototype in N scale. None of the products I used in building my layout were actually manufactured in Japan, all of them came finally from China. The only quality issue I ever encountered was a fallen off number plate on one of my locos - a tiny drop took care of that. In previous years, I had much more QA issues with products manufactured in Germany or imported from China through German importers.
Why´s that?
I think, companies like Kato or Tomix or MicroAce have better QC measures in places, before the product is being shipped to the customer. I know from other Japanese companies, that they have an approval and release procedure handled by Japanese staff in place, before the product actually leaves China. It adds only little to the overall cost, but this cost is certainly much lower than attempting to win back an unhappy customer.
My resume is, before we start complaining about bad Chinese quality, let´s talk to the importer and see what he does to ensure that we get what we pay for.
The thing about these Chinese Manufacturing threads is that almost none of these issues are within the modeler/buyer's circle of control.
Yes, whatever information that is not speculative could be interesting, and this is a conversation forum; but the reality of it is it comes down to supply and demand for most of us.
The only choice we can make is to buy products where the quality/price/availability components are aligned with what we think is appropriate. This is also getting more complicated with the demise of the LHS and the pre-ordering trend that will dominate the hobby.
I don't know when yet-to-be-built stock will be available, and I don't know what the quality will be like when it is. So, for me, is the price worth the gamble that the product's quality will meet expectations or its production schedule is within my time frame? With today's prices, I don't like to gamble when buying/ordering a new piece of rolling stock or a locomotive.
The details as to what influences that decision, like where it is produced, etc. are becoming irrelevant. If the item's production shifts back to the US or moves elsewhere, will I no longer have to take that gamble?
Just yesterday I attended a presentation on economic trends by the Chief Investment Officer of a major Fortune 500 company. This is OT to this topic but it was astounding what the natural gas revolution has the potential to mean to this country. If we take advantage of it.
OK back to the topic. One slide featured wage growth and wage rates in the US and in China. Just a few years ago you were looking at 87 cents an hour in China and that is when the US and international firms really flocked there. The wage rate differential was staggering, it was laughable, it was impossible. And then the law of supply and demand, and the inevitable rise in expectations that creates problems for every Communist economy, took over -- Chinese wages are now midway between $4 and $5, and the push is still upward. Still far below ours, but as a factor of one versus the other that is a huge change because we have stayed pretty steady.
If the model railroad firms were willing to pay top wages in China there would be no problem with finding capacity. Obviously they are not, because if top wages were what they could afford they would ahve stayed here.
The whole economics of the supply side of the hobby have come to mean that our manufacturer/importers are more or less bottom feeders. Well the food is gone at the bottom. Sorry Mr. Carp.
That means that now you are looking at costs of transportation more and more as being the tipping point. In the past you could say "it's cheaper even with the costs of shipping and transloading to manufacture in China." Keep your eye on Chinese wages and factory capacity to be sure, but also keep your eye on transportation costs (and there has yet to be a natural gas powered sea going container ship that I am aware of, to return to my first point).
There is another factor and that is, there is alot of criminal corruption in China. You chose your partners with great care or suddenly they are your bosses, assuming you are even permitted to still be around.
Dave Nelson
There are other train manufacturers in China, but they are not as large.
Bowser did not set up their own factory over there, but has been using one factory for quite some time--that was not Sandra Khan or Kader.
Recently, Atlas moved at least some of their production (I don't know exactly what) to the very same factory that Bowser has been using. I do not know the name of the company.
Bowser's C-430 was developed largely in China, and it was developed faster than the C-636 which had much of the design/development work done here in the U.S. That is at least partly why the planned delivery times are so close.
Also--it is worth noting that the most recent Athearn Genesis units (the GP38-2's and GP-7/9's) have had noticeably better quality control than previous Genesis models from even a year or two ago. Some of the Genesis GP15-1's (at least the two I own) are noisy growlers that sound like RTR units from several years ago, compared to these latest Genesis units, and the latest models I have seen have been much more cosmetically perfect than previous runs.
I still love my GP15-1's, partly because Athearn did a great job on the very difficult to match Frisco paint colors and the satin finish (which isn't too dead flat like other importers)--but both unfortunately have some minor blemishes. The newest Genesis diesels I've seen just look better--cleaner fit and finish all around.
I expect the GP50's to be fantastic!
It's a thought Dennis. I'm not 100% set on anything.
I use Micro Engineering track..........made in the good old U S A .
Dennis Blank Jr.
CEO,COO,CFO,CMO,Bossman,Slavedriver,Engineer,Trackforeman,Grunt. Birdsboro & Reading Railroad
ANYTHING made in a town named Beer has to be good!! Prosit!
Karl
NCE über alles!
Geared Steam One of Peco's new ads states "Peco Track, Always in stock"
One of Peco's new ads states "Peco Track, Always in stock"
Whew! Thanks guys.
Peco should be fine last i heard there factory is is in the town of Beer in Kent
Apologies in advance for any use of UK RailRoad Terms
"there is the wrong way the Right way and then there is Great western railway Way"
Larry and others,
I have to ask. I'm planning on doing my next layout in Peco 55. Any supply problems with Peco?
SpaceMouse MB. Very cool. Probably not any of their oldtime 4-4-0's though. I guess I'm sticking to MDC for a while.
MB.
Very cool. Probably not any of their oldtime 4-4-0's though. I guess I'm sticking to MDC for a while.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
There was also the Great Atlas Track Shortage of 2012. Atlas announced that they were moving production from one factory in China to another, with the implication that there might be shortages of some products for a while. This started almost a year ago, and I think we are still having trouble buying Atlas track. (I've been doing scenery mostly, and I pre-bought enough track to last me a while.)
Bachmann, by the way, has produced a number of new models in their Spectrum line that are very nice engines at prices significantly below the competition. DCC and sound, too.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
Thanks Paul. Looking forward to seeing the new product.
20+ years ago, you had two large companies that made most of the "good stuff" in China: Kader and Sanda Kan.
Atlas did a nice write up of Sanda Kan here:http://www.atlasrr.com/news/mrting.htm
Sanda Kan eventually was bought out by Kader. Kader owns Bachmann. Kader eventually told their old Sanda Kan clients to look elsewhere.
The problem is that the remaining factories were small fries compared to Sanda Kan and Kader. As such, they were undepenable and prone to making errors and going out of business at the drop of a hat. For example, Athearn's RTR manufacturer went out of business because the company president took off with all the money and was on the run from the Chinese cops. Oops. It's why Athearn's been banging out Genesis models and not many RTR's lately.
Some companies went the other way and created their own Chinese factories like Rapido. Called "Rapido Maytag", it makes all the Rapido products for them exclusively...but they are rather small by comparison.
The rumor I've heard is that most of the major US manufacturers are following the Rapido mode and creating their own factories in China. This effort is starting to bear fruit, which is why we're going to see a bunch of product hit the market in the coming year as the taps will finally be re-opened wide.
Someone jump in here if I'm wrong, but I think when this happened, Bachmann bought a Chinese manufacturing plant of their own (the shortage of track was a result of moving production). Going further out on a limb, I think Bachmann was planning on subbing out their unused capacity to other MRR companies. Good news, I think.
Stu
Streamlined steam, oh, what a dream!!
That's the part I heard. How did it sort itself out?