Doughless Perhaps it is exact wording. Because if its not about a thread veering off course, which I read as being the case when you say the "original thought doesn't get through and that people are only interested in arguing about everything", I'm not sure what its about. Perhaps I'll repeat the first line of my post. I'm not sure I understand what the problem is. Is the problem that somebody may offer a different opinion than the OP within the OP's thread? Or that they don't understand the OP's opinion in the first place?
Perhaps it is exact wording. Because if its not about a thread veering off course, which I read as being the case when you say the "original thought doesn't get through and that people are only interested in arguing about everything", I'm not sure what its about.
Perhaps I'll repeat the first line of my post. I'm not sure I understand what the problem is.
Is the problem that somebody may offer a different opinion than the OP within the OP's thread? Or that they don't understand the OP's opinion in the first place?
The intent of the first post in this thread was to discuss the fact that as model railroaders, with like interests, I find it difficult to understand why there is so much discord here on this forum.
The "Dotting of the Eye and crossing of the Tee" is in reference to attempting to keep from offending those who I seem to offend.
NP 2626 "Northern Pacific, really terrific"
Northern Pacific Railway Historical Association: http://www.nprha.org/
BEAR!
DC3
Last time I flew in one was in Sweden in 1972. I was a Royal Canadian Air Cadet on an international exchange trip and I was having the time of my life! (I was 17). The Swedish Air Force had polished the DC3 so much it was hard to look at in the sun. I got one of the biggest thrills in my life when we flew into a thunderhead (yes the pilot did it intentionally - he had a bunch of cocky kids on board!) The down draft caused the seatbelts, which the pilot had not bothered to tell us to put on, to stand straight up in the air! We were floating off our seats and howling with delight!!!
NOW, if ever there was an example of hijacking a thread.......
To address the general subject that the OP raised: I disagree that tone and attitude, and feeling for that matter, cannot be conveyed in print. If that were true we would have a severe shortage of entertaining books to read.
I have suffered no shortage of responses to my threads where the put down was short and (not so) sweet. I recently asked about how to improve the motor control on a Tsunami decoder in a Bachmann Spectrum FM H16-44 loco. One responder who I shall not name asked if any of the respondents had bothered to notice the locomotive into which I was attempting to install the decoder. He essentially dismissed it as being a piece of cr.p . He did not address me in his response in any way, shape or form. I noted his terse response but I decided to persevere with the Bachmann locomotive because I do not quit easily. Shortly later however, after I had asked a few more questions, said responder posted bemoning how I had ignored his original advise. To add to his disrespect, he said that I would probably ignore his second post as well. His wording spoke volumes about his attitude towards others. If you couldn't detect his know it all attitude in his terse language, then I have some swamp land in Florida to sell you!
My point is that there will always be nasty people in your life. How you deal with them is your choice. You can let them get under your skin, or not!
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
NP2626 .......I have to constantly read over what I've said to attempt to make sure I've dotted all my Eyes and crossed all my Tees.......
.......I have to constantly read over what I've said to attempt to make sure I've dotted all my Eyes and crossed all my Tees.......
Gidday, after 27 years of working with aircraft maintenance manuals, getting text correct so that everyone has a clear understanding of what's required is, in my opinion a virtual impossibility, so while I do try to be concise when I'm asking a question here, considering the international flavour even though this forum is U.S based, I do sometimes struggle.
However on a thread that invites opinion well, apart from common courtesy, the skies ( and what the moderators will tolerate) the limit.
There's nothing like a good robust debate, but when it comes to my opinion I know that I'm always right, it's just that I'm far too humble and modest to say so, heck I even managed type that with a straight face.
BTW, I've always considered the Douglas DC3 / C47 manual the best I've worked with.
Cheers, the Bear.
"One difference between pessimists and optimists is that while pessimists are more often right, optimists have far more fun."
DoughlessIs the problem that somebody may offer a different opinion than the OP within the OP's thread? Or that they don't understand the OP's opinion in the first place?
It might be six of one and half dozen of the other unless of course the OP wants 100% agreement for his/her thoughts and don't want anybody to give another point of view that differs from their idea.
The cold facts is I never seen a full agreement in any topic in the 12 years I been active on forums..
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
I like trains.
Just be glad you don't have to press "2" for English.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQ_ALEdDUB8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6hqFS1GZL4s
http://s73.photobucket.com/user/steemtrayn/media/MovingcoalontheDCM.mp4.html?sort=3&o=27
TZ...
I think you made sound observations and have given useful advice, but I think this thread is more about the OP having a reaction to responses in other threads, rather than trying to be constructive.
Its a thread about threads. Useless to everybody, and remotely significant only to those few people that were involved in the previous chippy banter.
Later...
- Douglas
Geared Steam NP2626 I have on occasions sent PMs to people who I have felt were very caustic to others; or, to myself. I have found that it may; or may not work and has at times actually caused an escalation of the ill will between us. How has that worked out for you?
NP2626 I have on occasions sent PMs to people who I have felt were very caustic to others; or, to myself. I have found that it may; or may not work and has at times actually caused an escalation of the ill will between us.
I have on occasions sent PMs to people who I have felt were very caustic to others; or, to myself. I have found that it may; or may not work and has at times actually caused an escalation of the ill will between us.
How has that worked out for you?
Isn't my answer to your question, in what you quoted me to have said?
Another thing that requires thicker skin and more introspection when having a written message conversation, is that there is no inflections or tone of voice to go off. When speaking face to face one can say something a bit wrong and immediately have feedback that they weren't understood or even misunderstood. That can be immediately corrected and the conversation continues. If someone is immediately offended for something written slightly wrong or strangely in one of these message threads then the conversation can come to an immediate halt or hackles go up the flame wars can begin for no real reason at all.
In light of this thread, go back and reread the first 3 posts of the new wheels design thread.
Interesting juxtaposition.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
"The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge but imagination."-Albert Einstein
http://gearedsteam.blogspot.com/
NP2626 Many times when we have posted a thread here on the Model Railroader Forums, it seems as though the original thought just doesn't get through. Some folks seem to only be interested in arguing about everything. I have to constantly read over what I've said to attempt to make sure I've dotted all my Eyes and crossed all my Tees. It appears to me that there are some who have no tolerance for different points of view and think that we're all supposed to think like they do. I thought I was born in the United States, where I have the freedom to choose what I want to think about things. This is a hobby, something I think most of us do for fun. Instead of their being so much controversy, you would think, due to this common interest, we'd be more tolerant!
Many times when we have posted a thread here on the Model Railroader Forums, it seems as though the original thought just doesn't get through. Some folks seem to only be interested in arguing about everything. I have to constantly read over what I've said to attempt to make sure I've dotted all my Eyes and crossed all my Tees. It appears to me that there are some who have no tolerance for different points of view and think that we're all supposed to think like they do. I thought I was born in the United States, where I have the freedom to choose what I want to think about things.
This is a hobby, something I think most of us do for fun. Instead of their being so much controversy, you would think, due to this common interest, we'd be more tolerant!
There's been a lot of good replies to this thread and I appreciate almost everything you folks have said. I would suggest if your going to reply to the O.P., you should really read the first post. That way, you won't get confused by other statements made, that may; or, may not have anything to do with the original thought. I understand that threads can and do veer of topic and that isn't what this thread is about!
I have on occasions sent PMs to people who I have felt were very caustic to others; or, to myself. I have found that it may; or may not work and has at times, actually caused an escalation of the ill will between us. Some people have no interest in finding any type of appeasement. Also, to think there are not trolls lurking about on internet forums, is very naive!
I'm not sure I understand the problem. Threads usually veer off because somebody reads something in the thread that, basically, allows them to start talking about what they want to talk about.
Kind of like being at a party where the same people tell the same stories year after year.
No need to get angry. Just smile....nod...and keep talking about what you want to talk about, not what they want to talk about.
I guess I agree with Crandell. Thread maintenance. Oftentimes when things veer off, the OP disappears or gets caught up in the new discussion/argument. That's the real problem.
doctorwayne maxman Texas Zepher BruntonI find it mildly humorous that some folks who decry the intolerant attitudes of others seem to have a rather large chip on their shoulders, so display a very strong level of intolerance themselves. Thanks Mark. I wasn't going to post to this thread until I saw your post. What you said is exactly what I was thinking. Me, also. Ditto.
maxman Texas Zepher BruntonI find it mildly humorous that some folks who decry the intolerant attitudes of others seem to have a rather large chip on their shoulders, so display a very strong level of intolerance themselves. Thanks Mark. I wasn't going to post to this thread until I saw your post. What you said is exactly what I was thinking. Me, also.
Texas Zepher BruntonI find it mildly humorous that some folks who decry the intolerant attitudes of others seem to have a rather large chip on their shoulders, so display a very strong level of intolerance themselves. Thanks Mark. I wasn't going to post to this thread until I saw your post. What you said is exactly what I was thinking.
BruntonI find it mildly humorous that some folks who decry the intolerant attitudes of others seem to have a rather large chip on their shoulders, so display a very strong level of intolerance themselves.
Me, also.
Ditto.
I was tempted to join Doctorwayne, Maxman and Brunton but I prefer to applaud to lions' wisdom.
Guy
Modeling CNR in the 50's
Personally, I enjoy a lively discussion. But some folks take this stuff way too seriously, not to mention those who start getting personal. As a result I try to keep to the plain vanilla. But I'm always happy to share what knowledge I have and provide an opinion based on what works for me. This is a hobby and as long as you don't hurt someone else you're free to enjoy the hobby however it appeals to you.
I know it gets said a lot, but a forum like this is pretty one dimensional. We don't get the clues from tone of voice, body language, etc. that you get in real face to face discussion. The written word can seem much harsher than intended and makes it easy to misunderstand what others meant, or when they're kidding a little bit. It also doesn't allow us to see that someone is getting upset when we didn't intend to offend.
Enjoy
Paul
bogp40 It may be time for this one to go to "Bed"
It may be time for this one to go to "Bed"
I'll leave this one open for awhile yet....if it goes into flaming individuals those posts will be deleted..or thread locked....
Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry
I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...
http://modeltrainswithmusic.blogspot.ca/
yeah, there are a few on here that remind me of the little kid back in school that always had his hand waving in the air and never gave anybody else a chance to respond to anything.
those kind always have an opinion on every subject, even if they have to stop and do a google to find out what it is.
the anonymity of the internet keeps them safe. we used to catch them after school, take their pants away, and throw them up into a tree. (the pants, not the kid.)
charlie
Modeling B&O- Chessie Bob K. www.ssmrc.org
wasn't it in Pulp Fiction where she asked him "Does he listen, or does he wait to talk?"
greg - Philadelphia & Reading / Reading
David, I believe you mean long - long - short - long...
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
Some times the fault cuts both ways. There have been lots of time that an OP replies to a sincere post on a thread in a way that can appear pretty intolerant to the poster. The OP may not realize how his or her post reads, and thinks he or she is being tolerant. In the mind of the poster the OP has insulted or demeaned the poster who responds negatively. The OP feels innocent and wronged by the response and so the death spiral begins.
Attempts to rigidly control the content of thread also have a history of ending up badly. The thread starts in one directions, but at some point somebody inserts a junction and the thread starts down a different path. If a gentle nudge doesn't work, my suggestion would be not to engage the people heading off down the branch, but to revive the discussion of the main topic. People repond to the most recent posts most often. Just make sure the main topic stays fresh on the list. As soon as the thread devolves into a debate on the management of the thread itself, and not the topic, it becomes an endangered species.
selector You compose a request for information/go to a car dealership. In both cases, you have a focus and an interest in acquiring a certain item or bit of information. After three or four exchanges of information, in both scenarios, one bystander offers that you're in the wrong hobby/scale/era/orientation/dealership/type of car and suggests that you think of something else, or change your mind entirely and try what he likes. Say the salesperson at a hobby shop or at the car dealership does this. Do you go along with his suggestion that you really want a $40K heavy duty truck, or one with a diesel and not a gas engine, when what you came in for was a compact four-door with a four-banger in it because all you could spend were $17K? If you do, then you are going to be very unhappy, and you would, if honest and responsible, have only yourself to blame. My position is that we are mostly grownups here, and when we present ourselves in words, it is up to each of us to manage what transpires as a result of what we post. Running to the mods is always an option, but grownups should have the courage and autonomy to attempt to manage/force the conversation to be limited to the parameters they carefully set out in their original post. That's the way I have lived, have taught, and was expected to act as an officer in the military. I call it ownership, and said as much in my first post. Having acted as a moderator, both here and elsewhere, I was happy to help keep discussions moving along smoothly and civilly. I didn't mind. But as a participant on fora all over the place, I was always happiest when I could keep the reins and manage my own way ahead, and admired those who felt the same way and managed theirs. Crandell
You compose a request for information/go to a car dealership. In both cases, you have a focus and an interest in acquiring a certain item or bit of information.
After three or four exchanges of information, in both scenarios, one bystander offers that you're in the wrong hobby/scale/era/orientation/dealership/type of car and suggests that you think of something else, or change your mind entirely and try what he likes. Say the salesperson at a hobby shop or at the car dealership does this. Do you go along with his suggestion that you really want a $40K heavy duty truck, or one with a diesel and not a gas engine, when what you came in for was a compact four-door with a four-banger in it because all you could spend were $17K? If you do, then you are going to be very unhappy, and you would, if honest and responsible, have only yourself to blame.
My position is that we are mostly grownups here, and when we present ourselves in words, it is up to each of us to manage what transpires as a result of what we post. Running to the mods is always an option, but grownups should have the courage and autonomy to attempt to manage/force the conversation to be limited to the parameters they carefully set out in their original post. That's the way I have lived, have taught, and was expected to act as an officer in the military. I call it ownership, and said as much in my first post.
Having acted as a moderator, both here and elsewhere, I was happy to help keep discussions moving along smoothly and civilly. I didn't mind. But as a participant on fora all over the place, I was always happiest when I could keep the reins and manage my own way ahead, and admired those who felt the same way and managed theirs.
Crandell
Crandell - Believe it or not, I do see your point, but it is also a little like comparing apples to oranges. In your scenario, I would be spending my hard-earned cash, and because of that, only I would know what it is I need and want. In the example of posting on the boards, if I don't like what I see or read in a thread, I move on. Pretty simple. If it's a thread that I started, it's still no big deal because I realize that some like to stir the pot.
To be honest, of the few topics that I have started on various boards, I have never had any problems with any poster. Maybe it's because, if you'll notice, I don't post a whole lot.
Chuck - Modeling in HO scale and anything narrow gauge
As for wandering off-topic, sometimes it adds perspective to the discussion or touches on related topics. Unless the conversation totally changes directions afterwards, I see no harm in it.
Wayne
trwroute selector Every person who starts a thread 'own's that thread, and is responsible for managing it. If that person finds it being 'polluted' with trivial, distracting, combative, and otherwise unhelpful responses, it is up to that person to ask, civilly, for the discussion to be limited to certain constraints. I need to disagree with this. That is why we have actual moderators...they signed up for it so let them do the dirty work. I am not, and never will be, a moderator on any board. Life is too short for that. I would rather be modeling!
selector Every person who starts a thread 'own's that thread, and is responsible for managing it. If that person finds it being 'polluted' with trivial, distracting, combative, and otherwise unhelpful responses, it is up to that person to ask, civilly, for the discussion to be limited to certain constraints.
Every person who starts a thread 'own's that thread, and is responsible for managing it. If that person finds it being 'polluted' with trivial, distracting, combative, and otherwise unhelpful responses, it is up to that person to ask, civilly, for the discussion to be limited to certain constraints.
I need to disagree with this. That is why we have actual moderators...they signed up for it so let them do the dirty work.
I am not, and never will be, a moderator on any board. Life is too short for that. I would rather be modeling!
Texas Zepher To the other sub-theme. Does this new forum software really allow the person who started the thread to moderate it? I don't start enough threads to notice things like that. If true, it seems a pretty cool feature.
To the other sub-theme. Does this new forum software really allow the person who started the thread to moderate it? I don't start enough threads to notice things like that. If true, it seems a pretty cool feature.
No, nothing has changed. TZ. Crandell's point was that an OP should feel at liberty to "guide" the conversation if it gets/starts to get off-track.
Sometimes the conversation naturally changes course over time as the thread develops. Other times forum members can do this willingly (someone with an axe to grind) or unwillingly - e.g. a new member who jumps in with a question of their own rather than starting an entirely new thread.
Tom
NP2626This is a hobby, something I think most of us do for fun. Instead of their being so much controversy, you would think, due to this common interest, we'd be more tolerant!
Agreed, NP. The Cranky Old Fart Factor in here is pretty high at times.
I do, however, believe that most people active on this forum understand that the sheer variety of approaches to... well... just about anything in this hobby is a strength, not a liability. There's a million ways to get things accomplished in MRRing; some work better than others, granted, but very rarely is there one and only one 'right' answer. The individuals who insist their way is the only way aren't seeing the forest for the trees, and their workmanship will likely suffer for it...
Stu
Streamlined steam, oh, what a dream!!
NP2626 This is a hobby, something I think most of us do for fun. Instead of their being so much controversy, you would think, due to this common interest, we'd be more tolerant!
uh huh...I mean, yea - i.e. yes.