I just bought on yesterday from my local hobby shop a Union Pacific SD40-2 engine for my home layout. I have a 5x9 layout modeled after John Armstrongs Track 28 (Granite Gorge and Northern). Every since I bought it home yesterday it has been constantly derailing on the turnouts and and some curves. It is a six axle engine and I'm thinking is that the problem. I'm new to the hobby so am wondering is it because the axles don't move as freely. I have a Life-Like Proto 2000 Chessie SD7 that does the same thing and it also a six axle engine. I have mostly 22'' inch radius curves so not sure whats wrong. Thought about just taking it back and putting the SD7 on Ebay. I have a Walthers Amtrak 40-8b which doesn't have nearly as many problems. Any advice???? Very frustrated guy here!
Regg05 Every since I bought it home yesterday it has been constantly derailing on the turnouts and and some curves. It is a six axle engine and I'm thinking is that the problem. I'm new to the hobby so am wondering is it because the axles don't move as freely. I have a Life-Like Proto 2000 Chessie SD7 that does the same thing and it also a six axle engine.
Every since I bought it home yesterday it has been constantly derailing on the turnouts and and some curves. It is a six axle engine and I'm thinking is that the problem. I'm new to the hobby so am wondering is it because the axles don't move as freely. I have a Life-Like Proto 2000 Chessie SD7 that does the same thing and it also a six axle engine.
99.9% sure your problems are not with the engines but are with the track. The reason I say this is you last comment.
I have a Walthers Amtrak 40-8b which doesn't have nearly as many problems.
The fact that a 4 axle engine is having ANY problems points directly at your track. The 6-axle units just find the problems more easily. The derailments aren't random. They probably happen at joints and the beginning and ends of curves, and any place you change grades (start going up or down).
Go over your track. Make sure all the joints are smooth and the rail rends line up. Sight down the rails. If you can see a kink, the engines can find the kink. Run the engines over the track very slowy and mark where they derail. Then figure out what the problem is at that location.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
HI
What kind {maker, brand} of turnouts do you have? Track?
I second the motion on the track work being the problem. WHY? you say you also have an SD7 that "does the same thing" and the 40-8b which "doesn't nearly have as many issues". Since you have THREE locos, all of whom have problems of the same variety on the same track work, it signifies the track work is most likely the problem.
How was the track attached to the roadbed or layout base? If track nails were used, there could be some deflection in the rails if the track nails were nailed down to tightly.
True, the 22" curves should not be a problem for the average 6 axle locos.
If the locos derail at the same spot{s} on the curves, you definitely have a problem...see if you can manually push the loco slowly through the curves to see where it rises up to derail, and search the trackwork with a track gauge to see what the results are.
-G .
Just my thoughts, ideas, opinions and experiences. Others may vary.
HO and N Scale.
After long and careful thought, they have convinced me. I have come to the conclusion that they are right. The aliens did it.
Except for engines specifically aimed at the 18" radius trainset market, just about any six axle engine is going to have issues with 22 inch radius and will quickly find small flaws in the track laying. These flaws can include: "bumps" in the cork roadbed caused by not sanding it smooth before laying the track that transmit a bump up into the track itself (this can be seen visually); allowing irregular slight gaps between ties and roadbed which result in the same small bumps; too drastic an incline/dip on grades; track which does not meet neatly and exactly and thus creates a kink -- essentially a curve far tighter than 22" radius; mixing makes of track so that a wider railhead is suddenly encountered resulting in a potential jolt to the wheel (this can be detected by running a finger tip along the inside edge of your track).
The good news is that all of these problems can be detected and resolved. Indeed, it can be very revealing to run one of those Ribbonrail radius templates through a curve on a layout.
http://www.walthers.com/exec/productinfo/170-22
http://www.walthers.com/exec/productinfo/170-1022
In theory the 22" radius template should push easily through your curves, and if there is the slightest "slow spot" that is an issue that needs to be addressed. If it crunches to a halt you have a genuine problem --- and finding your problem is what you want to do.
Turnouts, crossings, and heavily ballasted track can create their own issues.
Sometimes the problem is in the locomotive, with the power train creating a slight "lift" to the front axle of a six wheel truck. The old AHM SD40 was somewhat prone to this as I recall. That is why for example a dummy engine might track OK but an identical powered version might rebel at the curves. That is a much more challenging issue to cure, if it can be cured. That is why getting down to eye level with the track and slowly runing the problem engine to the point where it derails is probably the first step that should be taken.
As a rule, a modeler is better off with smaller four axle locomotives if 22" is your minimum radius, even if the advertising claims the engine can run on 22". But since you have the engines, I would carefully study the tracklaying and address any issue before giving up on them. If there is in fact a problem with the track sooner or later it will cause other issues for other rolling stock.
Dave Nelson
Thanks Dave,
Yes I have been having trouble with the track. For the most part the 4 axle engines go around the layout with no problem as I have a Bachman 4 axle that runs smooth around the track with minimal problems. It seems that the problems occur where there are turnouts. Either before or after. The six axle engines sometime go through them with no problem and other times they are derailing. I had this layout built for me by a guy up in Michigan since I'm a beginner to the hobby and am a full time student and have a full time job so I didn't have the time to build it myself. Im thinking that the turnouts are Atlas and is sectional track and some flex track as well. There is cork roadbed glued to the plywood and the track is nailed to the roadbed. I do know for sure that there are very slight dips in certain areas of the track and im not sure if its because of the roadbed or something else. Wondering should I have the track tore up and relaid???
If you go along the track with a level I'm betting you'll find places where one rail dips or rises more than the other one does. This can show up very quickly in curves but along straight track it my only cause the flanges of one wheelset to ride on top of the rail until it it comes to a turnout where it gets knocked off completely. I know this can happen because it happened to me about ten years ago. It didn't bother my four axle locos at all and most of the six axle locos went through OK with only occasional problems. But a Proto 2000 PA1 (six axle) derailed every time when it hit the turnout just after this particular stretch of track. I couldn't see it with the naked eye but when I put a level it the problem leaped out at me. Fixing it was a simple matter of shimming the low side of the track until the problem rail was level with the other rail.
Dr. Frankendiesel aka Scott Running BearSpace Mouse for president!15 year veteran fire fighterCollector of Apple //e'sRunning Bear EnterprisesHistory Channel Club life member.beatus homo qui invenit sapientiam
Regg05 Thanks Dave, Yes I have been having trouble with the track. For the most part the 4 axle engines go around the layout with no problem as I have a Bachman 4 axle that runs smooth around the track with minimal problems. It seems that the problems occur where there are turnouts. Either before or after. The six axle engines sometime go through them with no problem and other times they are derailing. I had this layout built for me by a guy up in Michigan since I'm a beginner to the hobby and am a full time student and have a full time job so I didn't have the time to build it myself. Im thinking that the turnouts are Atlas and is sectional track and some flex track as well. There is cork roadbed glued to the plywood and the track is nailed to the roadbed. I do know for sure that there are very slight dips in certain areas of the track and im not sure if its because of the roadbed or something else. Wondering should I have the track tore up and relaid???
Well, You could try Dave's method first before tearing up the track, but I imagine the Track nails, as I suggested are causing at least some of the problem. Nails nailed down too tightly can cause deflection of rails and some dips in track. Other areas may be caused by poor roadbed issues.
I would strongly recommend trying to fix the problems first, and if that fails, then consider tearing it up and relaying. The thing is you don't really have the time it sounds like, but I wouldn't trust some "guy up in Michigan" again.
If you do, perhaps choose a non-nail method, such as using latex caulk to "glue it down'. If it needs to be readjusted after laying , the caulk is easily scored with an offset cake decorating tool, and track lifted up to fix.
Be sure to check ALL trackwork first before affixing to be sure it all "runs well" with the trains .Level all roadbed by sanding if necessary.
Bullet proof trackwork is your very best friend! It is ESSENTIAL to running smooth trains. Take your time on the trackwork first and foremost. It should be priorty first.
Good luck!
If you really want to test your track work, run a steam engine over it, preferably a 4-8-4 or 2-10-4.
If the steamer runs flawlessly without derailing, forward and backward at top speed, you have bullet proof track work, but not until then.
Rich
Alton Junction
Good point above about track nails. if driven in too deeply so as to push down on the tie (and this by the way is very easy to do), they can actually narrow the gauge. NMRA standards are coarse enough that for some rolling stock this is tolerable, but as soon as you push the standards to their limit -- such as running large engines on 22" radius -- derailments can occur.
If the problems seem worse at the turnouts there might be other issues. Again any twisting or bending of the turnout, or any bumps or irregularities in the roadbed (or for that matter what lies under the roadbed) can be transmitted to the turnout. Sometimes engines "pick" at the points, and filing a small fillet at the top tip of the point can assist but it has to be done with care to avoid distorting the points.
Troubleshooting track problems involves getting your face close to the problem and repeatedly running the engine through the problem area, sometimes over and over again (this can go faster sometimes if you have a friend assisting with the actual operation of the locomotive). Running other rolling stock such as passenger cars through the trouble spot can also sometimes help reveal the culprit. Borrowing a large steam locomotive with a rigid wheelbase can be educational as well but again, if may just be that the combination of tight curves (and 22" radius is a tight curve) and smaller # turnouts just is not suited to what you are trying to run.
Yea I don't know what I'm going to do yet, but I have to figure something out. I know 22'' radius isn't the largest but it could be smaller and most locos run on it except the very big ones. My SD40-2 by Bachmann is a standard size in my opinion. I also have a Santa Fe GP38-2 that also is six axle and it runs alot better than the SD7 and SD40-2 that I just bought. I do notice at the turnouts it seems that they may need to be filed down to be on the same level as the rest of the track. I ran my finger along the turnouts when I got home yesterday and they seemed excessively high. Don't know if that's how they're supposed to be to keep the wheels moving in the right direction or what? Seeing that im really a baby in this hobby and don't have many tools my experience is next to none. I do have a file and some sandpaper and a hand rail cutter but thats about it. I'm thinking about reaching out to someone in my EMRR club in Elmhurst, IL to see if they could assist me. I'm very appreciative though of all the advice.
dknelson Good point above about track nails. if driven in too deeply so as to push down on the tie (and this by the way is very easy to do), they can actually narrow the gauge.
Good point above about track nails. if driven in too deeply so as to push down on the tie (and this by the way is very easy to do), they can actually narrow the gauge.
In theory, that is absolutely true. In practice, however, that is less likely to occur.
I nail down flex track all of the time. If you drive the nail too deep, it will likely break the tie or the rail(s) will lift out of the plastic spikes. Rarely, if ever, have I pulled the rails out of gauge. Those other bad things happen first.
After I bit of practice with a hammer and nail punch, you get pretty skilled at nailing down track without the problems described here.
Regg05 I also have a Santa Fe GP38-2 that also is six axle and it runs alot better than the SD7 and SD40-2 that I just bought.
Last time I looked, a GP38-2 was a four axle unit, not a six axle one. That probably explains why that unit has fewer problems than your other six-axle units. I do agree, the track is the problem. I have super elevated (banked) curves on my main line and there can be some derailment problems on the transition from curve to straight and vise versa. I made the necessary adjustment to correct that problem. And, with a turnout coming onto or out of a turn can also complicate the problem. As has been stated, you have to get your face close to the problem. Jeffry's suggestion about a level (or a straight edge), laying it on top of the railheads can be a real tell-tale of problems.
Are you talking about the kind of level that's used in construction with the green liquid in the center? Do model railroad shops sell those or would I have to go to Home Depot or Menards? What type of price am I looking at? I love trains but this is a very expensive hobby. Just five years or so ago you could get most freight cars for about $10-30each and passenger cars $20-40 and a decent engine for about $60-$80 now all those prices are double and even track and turnouts are expensive. I was looking for the working crossing signals with flashing lights and sound and the cheapest I found was about $150....Geesh!
Regg, while I agree it is more than likely the track. Have you check to make sure the engines wheels are in gauge and wheel flanges are in aliment. If you have a NMRA gauge check the wheel sets, if they are at the outer most of the gauge settings, move them in just a tad. If they are tight when check move them out a little. Just a fraction of a inch can make a big differences.
When I asked if the flanges line up I mean this.
While the picture is of a rolling stock truck, it is the same principal.
All so while you are looking at the engines, make sure there trucks rotate freely. When I got my new pk 2000 SD 7 it picked every turn! Turned out the front truck was hitting the front step's and causing a derailment problem.
Good luck.
Ken
I hate Rust
Regg05 Are you talking about the kind of level that's used in construction with the green liquid in the center? Do model railroad shops sell those or would I have to go to Home Depot or Menards? What type of price am I looking at? I love trains but this is a very expensive hobby. Just five years or so ago you could get most freight cars for about $10-30each and passenger cars $20-40 and a decent engine for about $60-$80 now all those prices are double and even track and turnouts are expensive. I was looking for the working crossing signals with flashing lights and sound and the cheapest I found was about $150....Geesh!
I use a 24 inch level. You can get them at any home improvement store, Lowes, Home Depot, etc. Yes the MSRP on locomotives and rolling stock are expensive but you can get some great bargains at train shows and swap meets, buying either used or new but older releases. Often your local hobby shop will put certain items on sale too.
Lots of good advise above. What size are the turnouts? 6 axle locos don't like Atlas Snap Turnouts(which are built for 18" radius track). I have had the best luck allowing my turnouts to float a little, that is to not nail them down very tight. Nails in track should never deform the ties, let alone bend them.
If the 22" R track feeds into the Atlas Snap turnouts, then you have a recipe to derail a 6 axle loco. Another question is , do the locos only derail when entering the turnouts from the point side or two sides, or all 3 sides?
Richard
Thanks Rust,
Thats what I think my new engine is doing....the trucks DO NOT rotate all that freely....and I was wondering is this by design and is that why it keeps derailing? The SD7 Chessie has a little better movement in the wheels but it too keps derailing. I need to get a gauge to see if my trucks are out of alignment because it seems like the wheels ride directly on top of the rail instead of slightly inside the rail. Where do I get the NMRA gauge? My local hobby shop? Then if that doesn't work I'll go to the track. I do think some of my track is a little iffy so it could be a combination of the engine wheels out of gauge or not turning freely and the track.
Use an HO scale tracj gauge. Your problem is your track.