Steam VS Diesel/Diesel VS Steam

[Geared Steam]

NP2626

Are any of you coming to the same conclusions?   

No, it comes with the territory. 

[jacon12]

 (tic)

Tom... Stu.., how can you call this beautiful, efficient machine BORING!!  Look at its clean lines, its highly efficient ...... uh... windshield wipers!  Its... its... toilet up front in the nose.  Ok, you can't see that but it's there.

(at least I think it still is on an SD 70 M2)

 

 

 

[Rastafarr]

twhite

Not to start an argument, and this is strictly a personal opinion, but most diesels to me are just flat out boring.  More efficient, yes.  But boring.   I'd much rather watch a clanking steamer than a humming diesel. 

Y'know, I'll second Tom on this one. I have a thing for PAs -- those things are rolling art-deco eye-candy -- but watching even them run is a bit on the dry side. Steamers, high-maintenance though they may be, just have more going on. It keeps my gnat-like attention span from wandering. 

Not that my signature leaves much doubt as to where my loyalties lay...

Stu

[mobilman44]

Atlantic Central summed it all up pretty well.............

I've also found a number of neat RRs under represented over the years, with the Illinois Central being one of them.  Their big steamers with the ugly massive square sandboxes are available only in brass - if you can find/afford them.  Yes, some of the model builders - even BLI - will take a generic model and slap "everybody's" name on them, whether appropriate or not.  To me that is just wrong, but they must sell - and to the model mfgs, its a business.........  

To paraphrase what I wrote earlier, it is what it is......   If we think the offerings are too expensive, too fragile, too generic, or just unreliable, there is nothing we can do to change that.   If you don't like them, don't buy them.   And if you buy them and don't like them, sell them on Ebay and don't buy anymore.

That's a neat thing about this hobby......... my likes/dislikes, rules or lack thereof are perfectly fine - for me.   And I respect that same right for anyone else that has a piece of track and a loco..............

Gotta say...........   haven't we had this conversation before? and before that? and before that?????? 

[ATLANTIC CENTRAL]

NP2626

"JaBear"

With the apparent reliability of modern HO steamers I'm half tempted to backdate my fleet to an all steam roster, except I like Baldwin Sharknoses too much, so guess I'll stick to the "transition era." 

Cheers, the Bear.

My experience with the reliability of modern HO Steamers is obviously quite different than some of yours.  Although I haven't found a whole lot to buy of modern steam, given that I need Northern Pacific.  What I have bought has not been reliable and certainly was not cheap, by any means. 

We've already gone down the road arguing about the quality and reliability of modern steam equipment.  I have no doubt those of you who believe that modern steam offerings are better, have your valid reasons for believing so.  My opinion, based on my years in the hobby and my mechanical abilities is different; but, just as valid.  Some of you claim to never have problems with anything, maybe thinking that espousing this position makes you look superior to all of the rest of us and for me at least, leaves me with the opinion that your opinions are really not worth reading.

I love steam engines and am very interested and will continue to be interested in them.  However, I have soured on them from a modeling standpoint, feeling they are unreliable, too fragile and far to expensive.  Heck, I don't like the prices of diesels, either; but, the manufacturers are getting what their asking, so what are we going to do?

As Andre and I have pointed out repeatedly, adjusted for inflation, most of today's models cost the same or less than their counterparts in the past. We cannot however alter your perception of price or value or change the dynamics of your personal economy.

In 1983 a Mantua Pacific was $66 - adjusted for inflation that is $152.00 today. You can still buy that loco new today, with a number of improvements but it is still "basic" in detail. It's retail price is $179.00 - BUT they can be had all day long, as many as you want for around $120, or $170 with sound - effectively in the same price range as 1983 but now it runs much better with can motor, better pickup, etc. 

Minor problems or not, warranty replacements or not, minor "on site" adjustments or not, all my Bachmann, Proto, BLI/PCM, and even IHC locos run better than any steam loco I had in 1975 (Mantua, Varney, etc.).

And again, my experience is not just as a consumer, but as someone who worked in a hobby shop, did train repairs, and tested every new loco that left the hobby shop.

As to the issue of "fragile" - I build and operate model trains - they are fragile - if you want toy trains, Lionel, MTH, Model Power, Marklin and several others are in the business of making rugged toy trains - in O and HO.

I will keep the fragile fine detail on my trains thank you.

Sorry your experience has been different, and I'm sorry the NP has not been better represented, neither has the B&O and a host of other roads that would seem to be popular.

Sheldon

[jacon12]

I'm 69 and for some reason have never been all that crazy about steam locos.  Oh, I have several ranging from a 3 truck Shay to a Norfolk and Western 2-6-6-4 Class A.  In between are a Consolidations and Mikados  Out of all those my favorite is the Bachmann 2-8-0 Consolidation.

But a few years ago I noticed that I started favoring diesels, anything from small switchers to the big SD 70m2 that I own.  Maybe it's because thats what I see out on the real railroads, maybe it's because there are 'usually' less wheels to deal with.

I don't know, probably never will.

Oh, I forgot to mention I mostly model the transition era give or take 50 years.,...  

 

 

 

[mobilman44]

May I add...........

The newer offerings of steam locos are like the newer offerings of autos (real)..................

When working, they are MUCH better than previous models.  But, todays selections are MUCH more complicated than the early ones.

Like so many electronic devices (and our fancy locos are just that), they either work, or they don't.  

But it all comes down to this..........   If you want them, get them.   If you don't, then don't.   I certainly would not blame you or praise you or criticize you for doing either.

For me.......... my BLI ATSF Northern is absolutely the greatest!

[NP2626]

"JaBear"

With the apparent reliability of modern HO steamers I'm half tempted to backdate my fleet to an all steam roster, except I like Baldwin Sharknoses too much, so guess I'll stick to the "transition era." 

Cheers, the Bear.

My experience with the reliability of modern HO Steamers is obviously quite different than some of yours.  Although I haven't found a whole lot to buy of modern steam, given that I need Northern Pacific.  What I have bought has not been reliable and certainly was not cheap, by any means. 

We've already gone down the road arguing about the quality and reliability of modern steam equipment.  I have no doubt those of you who believe that modern steam offerings are better, have your valid reasons for believing so.  My opinion, based on my years in the hobby and my mechanical abilities is different; but, just as valid.  Some of you claim to never have problems with anything, maybe thinking that espousing this position makes you look superior to all of the rest of us and for me at least, leaves me with the opinion that your opinions are really not worth reading.

I love steam engines and am very interested and will continue to be interested in them.  However, I have soured on them from a modeling standpoint, feeling they are unreliable, too fragile and far to expensive.  Heck, I don't like the prices of diesels, either; but, the manufacturers are getting what their asking, so what are we going to do?

["JaBear"]

With the apparent reliability of modern HO steamers I'm half tempted to backdate my fleet to an all steam roster, except I like Baldwin Sharknoses too much, so guess I'll stick to the "transition era." 

Cheers, the Bear.

[Burlington Northern #24]

buildings would probably remain the same because there's a lot of steam era structures still standing in tenino, bucoda, and centralia. vehicles and rolling stock would have to be swapped but it would be worth it. NP in your original post you noted that steam was slightly more expensive than diesels, I agree steam in N scale is usually in the triple digits though my Light mountain was a steal at $70. I looked at how much Z scale steam was,  I died those things go into the 4 digit #'s.

[doctorwayne]

Well, I had originally intended to set up my layout so that it could represent one in either the late '40s-early '50s or the mid-'70s.  In addition to changing the locos, rolling stock, and vehicles, some structures would have been changed out for ones suitable to each period.
When I finally realised that that was an overly-ambitious plan for someone who worked so slowly, I got rid of all my '70s rolling stock , almost all of the diesels, and much of the '50s rolling stock, too.  What rolling stock that was left I re-worked into more suitable models for a late '30s layout, and except for a diesel-powered doodlebug, it's 100% steam.
All of the steam has been modified in one way or another to make it operate better and more reliably, and I also have a somewhat regular maintenance programme.
My steamers, like Sheldon's, are moderately-sized locos suited to the layout, and are mostly  from Bachmann or Athearn.  The mainline locos (Mikes and Consolidations) do all the switching chores along the route, and operate almost completely without problems.

While there are a lot of very tempting diesels being offered nowadays, management is firmly committed to steam.

Wayne

[Burlington Northern #24]

NP2626

Burlington Northern #24

I'm gonna hold onto my 3 steamers and maybe get more just because I enjoy watching them run, besides can't run the pre BN merger roads without some steam. 

CB&Q, N.P. S.P. &S. and G.N. (the pre-B.N. merged lines) basically ran for probably close to 15 years after the fires were dropped from their steam locomotives.  This would get you from 1st generation diesels to SD45s, U25Cs and U28Cs.

yeah but I was gonna go to the 1940's because my SP&S RS1 was built in 45, my GN FA units were built in 50, my fictional NP light mountain was made in the 30's, my CB&Q E5A was made in the 30s (I think). I really enjoy the 40's and 50's time frames, what I was planning on modeling was the area where I currently live. and having a three era setup for it Pre BN, BN, and BNSF. 

[NP2626]

Burlington Northern #24

I'm gonna hold onto my 3 steamers and maybe get more just because I enjoy watching them run, besides can't run the pre BN merger roads without some steam. 

CB&Q, N.P. S.P. &S. and G.N. (the pre-B.N. merged lines) basically ran for probably close to 15 years after the fires were dropped from their steam locomotives.  This would get you from 1st generation diesels to SD45s, U25Cs and U28Cs.

[Burlington Northern #24]

I'm gonna hold onto my 3 steamers and maybe get more just because I enjoy watching them run, besides can't run the pre BN merger roads without some steam.  besides I love my GS4, not a BN road but it's still pretty darn cool.

[mobilman44]

Hi,

I've been playing with trains - steam & diesel - since the mid 1950s.  Model steam locos have always been more particular and demanding and less forgiving than diesels.  It is simply the nature of the beast.

I'm pushing 69, and with the proper tools, lighting, magnifiers, and patience, I can still work on both.   But it is rather obvious that at some point, the steamers will end up on display...........

[ATLANTIC CENTRAL]

Well, no, I don't think I would ever stop modeling steam, especially with locos as good as they are now.

Back in the 60's and 70's you might have had a point here, but not now.

I would suggest that many people have problems with steam for two reasons - poor trackwork and curves and turnouts that are too sharp for the locos they buy.

My curves are 36" radius and above. Any turnout that a mainline size steam loco runs on is #6 or larger.

All my curves have easements. All my grades are smoothly transitioned into.

And even with those track standards I restrict the rigid wheel base of the steam locos I buy to about 20 scale feet. I only have one exception, I do have one Spectrum USRA 2-10-2 which has a rigid wheelbase of 21'.

This means no 2-12-2's, or 80" drivered 4-8-4's like a GS4, or similar monsters of the rails.

As Crandel pointed out, modern long wheelbase diesels with 3 or4 axle trucks can be just as problematic as any steam loco.

All my diesels are 1st generation and most ride on B-B trucks.

Are model steam locos a little "fussy" - YES - just read again my post about "improving Bachmann locos". Are they always perfect out of the box - no, but a lot of diesels aren't either. But for me, those little details, once worked out, are never a problem later.

A little extra tender weight, a slighly improved drawbar, some BullFrogSnot or extra weight for pulling power - no big deal, just part of the fun for me.

I like diesels too, an ABBA set of Alco FA's is a cool sight at the head of a 50 car freight train - but so are three Spectrum 2-8-0's or a pair of heavy Mountains.

Sheldon

 

[tomikawaTT]

I am modeling a very specific place at a very specific time, with the locos (steam, diesel and catenary) that were there then.  If my estate executor will have a problem with that...

And, no, I don't find myself running more diesels than steam, or compromising the action I saw in 1964 in any other way.

As for maintenance, I look on that as a scheduled, routine activity - not a sudden need to fix a problem.

Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964 - with the locos I saw there)

[rrebell]

I used to have mostly steam. Got my layout running and now I have more 1st gen diesel. Some modern steam runs great. My Proto 2000 0-6-0 and 0-8-0, no problem, Spectrum, can run just as good with a lot of their problem being in their wiring harness, it needs to be positioned correctly to run great. Got rid of all my MDC except for some shays that run great, also still have some Rivarossi That run great that I turned down the flanges on (I run code 70 and some 18" radius curves).

[twhite]

Well, I grew up with steam in the 'forties and most of the 'fifties, so that's what I have always been attracted to.  My great-uncle was a brakeman on the Espee, and my first train ride was in the cab of an AC-6 Cab Forward helper locomotive over Donner Pass in 1946. 

My own MR is about 98% steam, with 1 F-3 ABBA diesel and one E6 ABB diesel set and that's it.  Everything else encompasses steam from 2-8-0's up to 2-8-8-4's.  Mostly brass.  Mostly re-worked and re-balanced and re-motored to optimum effiency.  And yes, tinkered with.  I'm my own roundhouse and shop, LOL, and for me, that's half of the fun of owning steam.  My oldest brass locos are probably older than some of our forum members, but they still keep running along smooth, quiet, powerful and sweet.  For me, the esthetics outweigh the maintenance. 

Not to start an argument, and this is strictly a personal opinion, but most diesels to me are just flat out boring.  More efficient, yes.  But boring.   I'd much rather watch a clanking steamer than a humming diesel. 

And since I'm 73, I doubt that I'll be converting to diesel.  I've got too many steamers I like to run.

Tom  

[BRAKIE]

I think I will mention a sweet little 2-8-2 I had in 89/90.

At best it would pull 12  factory weigh Athearn 34' hopper cars around the Galion club's layout since it had a 2% grade and the engine was light.

I had to cut the wires to the smoke unit since I didn't want the smoke.

I paid a whooping $35.00 for this engine at the Berea train show.

It was a IHC 2-8-2.

For the price paid it ran flawlessly.

[jeffrey-wimberly]

NP2626

Are any of you coming to the same conclusions?   

I came to that conclusion back in the late 70's and over the years have sold or traded off all but a couple of my steamers. I've picked up a few along the way since then, some of which I sold or traded, others that I have on display. Diesel is about all I run now, from FT's up to GP40's and U30's. My biggest are the H24-66 Trainmaster and Century 628.

[mlehman]

This is a question that's near to my heart. My prototype ran steam, long after they started buying diesels,  up until they sold it off in 1980 -- and the Silverton is a long way from a last run still.

I have standard, narrowgauge, and dual-gauge track. I have the standard issue of not quite as much room as I'd like, but was able to maintain a 28" min radius on the SG main. But there just wasn't enough room for my Durango engine service facilities to be dual-gauge without really cramping things. I decided that the narrowgauge would run both steam and diesel, reflecting more traffic and a Rio Grande willing to invest in its NG system. But SG is all diesel, perhaps better reflecting real life. I still may take the plunge for a SG steamer some day, especially if Blackstone decides to move forward with a Rio Grande SG steamer as their motive power survey seemed to indicate.

Blackstone, hmmmm? you say. Yes, in a nutshell, if you've not had the chance to operate any of their wonderful K-27 and C-19 locos, you don't know what you're missing. In fact, you'd be wondering what all the fuss is about steam not running as well as diesel. In any case, Blackstone sets the bar for what we should expect in terms of steam loco performance.

Blackstone's locos are built by Kader. Bachmann is one of Kader's brands and it's obvious improvements have been great over the last decade. If you haven't seen some of the B-mann's stuff lately, it's obvious that the Blackstone has raised the bar and others have decided to try to keep up, which is of benefit to the consumer. Frankly, if B-mann sells a loco that's 80% of what Blackstone builds into theirs, you'll still have a darn fine loco -- and it shows in recent B-mann offerings, which even more amazingly cost about half of what a Blackstone sells for due to the economies of scale in standard gauge.

Brass can be finicky and some of them are and always will be a basket cases. On the other hand, I've installed Tsunami's in 3 brass HOn3 steam locos and they are darn near the equal of my Blackstones now that they're tuned and tweaked. That does take skills -- and maybe even a little voodoo

Nah, no deal with the devil is really necessary. What does the trick is putting wipers on everything but the loco lead and trailing trucks.

I'll agree that diesel models tend to run well, even straight out of the box. But steam is out there and worth the trouble if you want to run it.

[selector]

I run 90% steam from BLI, Rivarossi, PCM (BLI), Proto 200 Heritage, Trix, Lionel HO, and Sunset Brass Models.  The rest comprise the following: Proto 2000 SW8, Proto 2000 FA2/FB2, Atlas Trainmaster H24-66, and two Athearn Genesis SD-75M's.   Those SD-75's gave me as many fits on my last layout as the one steamer that made me rip up 3' of track, relay it, and reballast and weather it...my BLI Brass Hybrid Union Pacific 2-10-2.  I checked the poor-reputation trucks for being twisted on a shiny flat counter-top. Nada.  When I saw that they were nice and straight, the inevitable conclusion was that my outer rails on the two curves, in small arcs, were lower than I had accepted they were based on steamer performance....all ten of them at that time.

So, diesels have a way of humbling smug people who think they have their rails beaten into submission. (My hand is up.)

Secondly, I don't run any of my steamers much.  My longest serving one, the BLI Hudson with QSI, has perhaps 3 running hours on it.  So, I have yet to experience the disappointment of a steamer that suddenly needs some serious attention...unless I drop three of them off a shelf....happened to me.

Lastly, I couldn't imagine being in the hobby without at least one steamer.  I grew up around steam, and that is what keeps me in the hobby.  It's not to say I don't grealy admire the brutish looks of an SD70ACe: I do, and would love to have one.  I won't part with any one of my steamers for it, though.  In hobby terms, it would be like selling one of my kids.  Unthinkable.

Crandell

[charlie9]

in response to your post about cabooses and my attitude toward them;

this only counts if you play mind games with your operations and i am sure many of us do.

1-the cab must be taken to the cab track upon arrival or at least set over out of the way since we don't want to switch with it next to the engine.

2-the cab must be switched out and pulled from the cab track so it can be tacked onto the outbound train.

3-older wooden cabs must be carefully handled when shoving cuts to avoid crushing them. (see TRRA shelter cabs)

4-if your road has assigned cabeese, the fifo system must be applied which requires a lot of switching or at least a double ended caboose track.

5-road crews are continually complaining about the condition of the very pool caboose they trashed coming in. (in HO scale you can barely hear them shout)

6-cabeese are the second most expensive piece of rolling stock on my railroad after locomotives.

7-they generate absolutely no revenue unless you are running mixed trains or smuggling something..

8-they are the most costly piece of equipment to maintain after locomotives.

9-they are where most personal injuries occur to crew members.  (personal injury settlements are paid in HO scale dollars so that takes the edge off)

10-they are a hiding place for yard clerks and car knockers, especially in cold or wet weather.

now for the upside.

A-they give my little spectrum 0-8-0 something to do since it can barely pull it's own tender.

B-their absence tells me the train broke in two while going through the adjacent room.

C-they do look neat.

D-I haven't figured out how to rig a tail hose for shoving in HO scale yet.

be happy in your work

Charlie

[NP2626]

charlie9

just go give you guys a "heads up"     when you start trying to duplicate prototype operations you may also find that cabooses can be a royal pain.

Charlie

Although attempting to operate prototypically is what I am doing right now, I've never had problems with my cabooses.  What Royal Pains have you had?

[BRAKIE]

charlie9

just go give you guys a "heads up"     when you start trying to duplicate prototype operations you may also find that cabooses can be a royal pain.

Charlie

Only if you allow that..As a brakeman I never seen a caboose get in the way.

[BRAKIE]

I had brass steamers when I was in my teens in the early 60s and after that I've had very few steam engines..I guess the steam bug never got a good grip on me even those I witness the last days of steam in the mid  50s..IIRC the last steamer  in Columbus (Ohio) had its fire dropped in '58.

Of late I had passing thoughts of buying a steamer but,I doubt if  that will ever  become a reality due to the reported problems.

[NP2626]

I use my steamers where they would have prototypically run.  Having been in the hobby since the 1960s and built my share of steam kits and done my share of steam kit bashing, for people to think I am a neophyte; or, that I can't use a logical sequence, to trouble shoot problems when they have arisen, is a mistake!  I have done all of these things and the conclusion I have come to (above) is that I no longer feel the endeavor worthwhile!

I have retired, I have fought the good fight, I was a skilled tool & die maker and tool & die designer.  The computer and CAD-CAM has superseded the need for these skills.  What I mean to say here is: In retirement, I hope to simplify my life.

Those of you who want to continue running and continuing to purchase Steam Locomotives certainly have my blessing!  I am interested in what you are finding as good equipment in HO Steam Locomotives; however, excuse me for only being interested in reading about it, as I have been there and done that!

Nobody here is attempting to take anyones steam locos away from them!

[Dr Gonzo]

You can take my steam away from me when you can pry it from my cold, dead hands.

:)

[locoi1sa]

I have to admit that I am the opposite. I have very few diesels mostly early ALCO's and Baldwins with a few GP's and SD's. While I love running steam I have shied away to buying the largest steam that most model manufactures are shoving out to us. I do have one Y3 in PRR paint. I am like the prototype and run the bread and butter 0-6-0, 2-6-0, and 2-8-0 in just about every location and leave the big guys to drag and push freight on the mains. All my passenger trains are pulled by 4-6-2, and 4-8-2 with a rare T1 4-4-4-4 out front. Mainline freight is handled with multiple 2-10-0 and 2-10-4 locos. 

  There is nothing like it when you run a pair of decapods on the front of a sixty car train with a pair behind pushing on the clubs long uphill climb. Whistles blowing, cylinders barking, rods turning and crowds watching. All that's missing is the smell of acrid smoke and steam mist raining down. As a plus to this scenario I also get 2 switching moves. One at the bottom of the hill pulling the cabin and running around it to add the pushers in front. and another at the top of the hill putting the cabin back behind the last car.

   Most people run into problems with steamers when they use them for jobs they were not designed for. I would never use my T1 for switching passenger cars. I use an 0-6-0 for that and the T1 couples on only when the train is ready to go.

     If you don't want your steamers anymore send them my way.

            Pete