richhotrain If you don't run steam engines, how can you comment so knowingly? Rich
If you don't run steam engines, how can you comment so knowingly?
Rich
Simple..I have eyes and I see BLI,MTH,Bachmann and other brands of steam engines run for hours at the club without derailments..
If one is a member of a club he gets to see many new locomotives and watching them run can give you knowledge of a given engine-good,bad or plum ugly..
Of course getting first hand information from the owner is priceless..
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
A good tip came from Model Railroader magazine years ago.
Take your worst locomotive and run it over the tracks forward and backward before you ballast.
That's your test if it's ready.
Yes steamers are more maintence intense. Getting the the gear tower, to the final gear, and the wires between the tender and engine require more work.
Yes, the longer wheel base does create problems on tighter curves.
What's your point?
I run Bachmann's 2-6-6-2's on R18's for hours for my son. Does he care about overhang? Nope. He just lets his imagination fly.
As we have all said all along, it's what makes you happy.
Don - Specializing in layout DC->DCC conversions
Modeling C&O transition era and steel industries There's Nothing Like Big Steam!
richhotrainThe contention is that steam engines require bullet proof track work whereas diesels don't.
Dr. Frankendiesel aka Scott Running BearSpace Mouse for president!15 year veteran fire fighterCollector of Apple //e'sRunning Bear EnterprisesHistory Channel Club life member.beatus homo qui invenit sapientiam
Larry, you should recuse yourself from any further comment on this thread.
The subject is the higher maintenance associated with steam engines.
The contention is that steam engines require bullet proof track work whereas diesels don't.
Alton Junction
NP2626 O.K., my diesels (7 of them) make it around my layout without problems, too. When your talking diesels and I'm talking steamers, we're not speaking the same language, are we?
O.K., my diesels (7 of them) make it around my layout without problems, too. When your talking diesels and I'm talking steamers, we're not speaking the same language, are we?
Yes we are speaking the same language..I'm talking about derailment free operation regardless if its steam or diesel.As I told Rich I see steam engines run for hours at the club with zero derailments..
richhotrain BRAKIE NP2626 Larry, (Brakie) am I correct in the fact that you are not running steam engines? I have one steam engine a old AHM NKP Berk I painted and lettered for the 765 but ,it hasn't been ran in years..I'm 100% diesel. Brakie, shame on you. As I scroll back through the replies to this thread, you were the loudest proponent of the zero derailment theory, and yet you are 100% diesel??? Not even one steamer on which to make your claims??? Rich
BRAKIE NP2626 Larry, (Brakie) am I correct in the fact that you are not running steam engines? I have one steam engine a old AHM NKP Berk I painted and lettered for the 765 but ,it hasn't been ran in years..I'm 100% diesel.
NP2626 Larry, (Brakie) am I correct in the fact that you are not running steam engines?
Larry, (Brakie) am I correct in the fact that you are not running steam engines?
I have one steam engine a old AHM NKP Berk I painted and lettered for the 765 but ,it hasn't been ran in years..I'm 100% diesel.
Steam,Diesel,Electric or Trolley it doesn't matter since you want derailment free operation.
Using steam as a excuse for derailments is weak and holds as much water as a metal water bucket with a rusted out bottom...
I've seen steam locomotives run for hours at the club with zero derailments.
NP 2626 "Northern Pacific, really terrific"
Northern Pacific Railway Historical Association: http://www.nprha.org/
I do have fond memories of my old PFM,United,Sunset,steamers as well as a smooth running IHC 2-8-2. and built a MDC 2 truck Shay.I also built a Mantua "Lil six" 0-6-0T and a Penn Line H9.I'm no stranger to today's steam locomotives since I see them ran at the club.
As for the club layout its located in a building at the fair grounds that is unheated 6 out of 7 days in Ohio weather.The back layout is C100 while the front layout is a mixture of Handlaid and Atlas C100 flex.The reason for that is the handlaid track and switches is 24 years old is getting worn..The steamers are ran on the back layout that has 36 40 and 46" curves while the front layout has tighter curves 26" and 24".You can run smaller wheel base steamers on the front layout and if you are wondering both layouts are connected.
To be honest I have passing thoughts of buying a steam locomotive-a PFM Santa Fe 1950 Class 2-8-0 to be exact but,never made the final decision.
The only things I did different that Brunton is I have used Midwest Cork Roadbed and nailed it to my 1/2 inch plywood sub road bed. I've taken as much care as anyone does in attempting to make my track work smooth, fair and trouble free. Like I believe Mike Lehmann said; his layout is located in a part of his house subject to humidity changes. So is mine. I have an old house and the basement (where my layout is located) is subject to some fairly large humidity and temperature variations. This does cause some problems with my roadbed. However, when the humidity is highest (Summer) I have other activities I participate in, so the layout sits idle from the end of April to October.
I have said this before: My layout plans never included large steam locomotives. Their abilities, capabilities and operation is not what I was interested in. I have locomotives with wheel arrangements no bigger that 2-8-2 Mikados, which as I am reiterating now, work fine on my 22 inch radius! Also, I have been aware of Tru-Scale Track since maybe 1958 when my neighbor and myself actually built a loop of probably 26 inch radius Tru-Scale track. I chose 22 inch radius because my railroad is in a mountainous location and as is always the case, layouts are built with compromises!
Brunton You're certainly right about the equipment, Larry! I had one Athearn hopper that just would NOT stay on the track no matter how much I messed with it. Everything looked fine, but it would jump off the tracks on a very regular basis. After unsuccessfully fiddling with the car for 2-3 hours, I finally solved the problem by simply removing it from the layout and dropping it in the trash (after removing truacks and couplers, of course). Some things are just not salvageable.
You're certainly right about the equipment, Larry! I had one Athearn hopper that just would NOT stay on the track no matter how much I messed with it. Everything looked fine, but it would jump off the tracks on a very regular basis. After unsuccessfully fiddling with the car for 2-3 hours, I finally solved the problem by simply removing it from the layout and dropping it in the trash (after removing truacks and couplers, of course). Some things are just not salvageable.
I had the same problem with an Athearn hopper...my whole fleet ran fine on my old layout...never a problem with anything...just that one car. I could never figure it out. When I lay some track on my new layout I will give it another day in court...but she may be a canvas for my weathering techniques instead of serving my feed co-op.
BruntonI had one Athearn hopper that just would NOT stay on the track no matter how much I messed with it. Everything looked fine, but it would jump off the tracks on a very regular basis.
I had a Athearn flatcar that did the same..It took me weeks to figure out the body was warp and that was after I gave it the old mirror inspection...
Mark P.
Website: http://www.thecbandqinwyoming.comVideos: https://www.youtube.com/user/mabrunton
Mark,You sum it up quite nicely and that's a direct path to derailment free operation.
The rest is in your equipment and that includes correct wheel gauge and coupler/trip pin height.
A lot may not believe in 100% derailment free operation is possible and that's ok but,I must be doing something right when I can run my stuff at the club for 5-6 hours every day for the week of the county fair with zero derailments.I can switch cars for hours with zero derailments..
A couple of pages back Gary D. asked how someone did their "zero-derailmant" tracklaying. Here's how I lay my HO track to minimize derailments (as others have said/implied, zero derailments is probably impossible). I'll make this as concise as I can...
1. I use 1/2" plywood subroadbed, generally supported on 16" centers, but I have fudged up to 22" in places and not had an issue.
2. Roadbed is cork I cut myself from floor underlayment rolls. You can see that on my website (see signature for link). I run the side of my fingers along the underside of the cork before laying, to make sure there are no grossly protruding granules. If there are I pick them off with a fingernail. I don't care if it leaves a little hole.
3. I glue the cork down along the track centerline I've drawn on the subroadbed. I stagger the ends of the cork (two strips, just like commercial cork roadbed). On straights I weight the cork with old floor tile (no need to stack more than one tile) until the glue dries; on curves I usually use lots of straight pins. I'm very careful to follow the curved centerline precisely, as I later use the mated edges of the cork to guide the centerline of the track itself.
4. I hand sand the top of the cork after the glue is dry, to make sure I get a smooth surface. It's about 150 grit paper, but anything reasonable close is good enough. Two to three passes with the sanding block and moderate pressure is sufficient.
5. I vacuum the sanded cork and immediately adjacent area.
6. I use Atlas flextrack (usually code 83) for most mainlines, because I like the way it easily curves without kinking. I file the ends of the rails slightly to ensure good electrical connection with the rail joiners, and also to make sure there are no tiny burrs that can catch a wheel. I do this very quickly by moving a cutoff wheel against the edge of the rail on all sides - top, sides and bottom.
7. I use Atlas track nails or similar, and attach the track right down the center of the cork. I drive the nails about 3/4 of the way down, then sight along the track to ensure it's either straight of smoothly curved. If there are irregularities, I can simply tap the nail slightly to the left or right and that usually smooths things out. I then drive the nail the rest of the way, making sure I don't seat the nail head hard against the tie. It usually touches, but a tiny gap (.005" or so) is my preference because it secures the track but doesnt bend the tie and cause the rails to twist.
8. On curves, I leave a short straight section (1-2 inches), and trim the inner rail (which is the sliding one) to match the length of the outer one. I dress the cut end as in 6 above, and solder the next piece to this one before curving through the joint. Once soldered, the curve flows smoothly from the first piece of track to the second as if there were no joint.
That's pretty much it. I use my eyeballs and fingers extensively when checking for smoothness and consistency, but the locos and rolling stock are the final arbiter. I run a large steamer dead slow through the new track, watching the lead truck particularly, as it's motion back and forth on curves most clearly shows any tightening / loosening of the radius. Once that's smooth, anything else will run through with no problems.
That's how I do it. It's successful for me.
Anyone want to know how I do easements and super-elevation? The former is rather unique...
BRAKIE Burlington Northern #24if there are requirements to be considered a "model railroader" then frankly I will not partake in this hobby. Gary,If there was such requirements I guess I spent the last 55 plus years pretending to be a model railroader. I enjoyed the hobby over the past 55 plus years by sticking to the simple basics and simple operation and I guess I seen things and I've done things that went against the grain of the so called "rules" "standard acceptable procedures" or whatever I'm not sure what the proper word may be. ------------------------------------- while everybody's experiences and opinions differ from my own, why should one be scrutinized for something that they are willing to own up to. ------------------------------------ They shouldn't be since there is to many correct ways to enjoy the hobby and just as many things that can go wrong..Then some try to hard or forget the simple basics they started learning with their first train set. My Achilles heel is derailments..I won't accept them as part of operation and nothing embarrasses me more then-heaven forbid- having one my cars to derail at the club.. I spend the meeting before a open house or the county fair inspecting the cars I plan to use and the selected cars are test ran around the layout for at least 30 minutes and before the doors are open for the open house they are given a final test run around the layout with 2-3 roll by inspections. I have always and will continue to advise modelers to obtain 100% derailment free operation since its not hard to obtain.
Burlington Northern #24if there are requirements to be considered a "model railroader" then frankly I will not partake in this hobby.
Gary,If there was such requirements I guess I spent the last 55 plus years pretending to be a model railroader.
I enjoyed the hobby over the past 55 plus years by sticking to the simple basics and simple operation and I guess I seen things and I've done things that went against the grain of the so called "rules" "standard acceptable procedures" or whatever I'm not sure what the proper word may be.
-------------------------------------
while everybody's experiences and opinions differ from my own, why should one be scrutinized for something that they are willing to own up to.
------------------------------------
They shouldn't be since there is to many correct ways to enjoy the hobby and just as many things that can go wrong..Then some try to hard or forget the simple basics they started learning with their first train set.
My Achilles heel is derailments..I won't accept them as part of operation and nothing embarrasses me more then-heaven forbid- having one my cars to derail at the club..
I spend the meeting before a open house or the county fair inspecting the cars I plan to use and the selected cars are test ran around the layout for at least 30 minutes and before the doors are open for the open house they are given a final test run around the layout with 2-3 roll by inspections.
I have always and will continue to advise modelers to obtain 100% derailment free operation since its not hard to obtain.
SP&S modeler, 1960's give or take a decade or two for some equipment.
http://www.youtube.com/user/SGTDUPREY?feature=guide
Gary DuPrey
N scale model railroader
NP, Atlantic I agree with both of your post's. NP I try not to let it bother me, Atlantic it is understood I owned up to something that was my fault because I didn't have an wide radii turns at the time( now I do though). In all honesty my first layout was terrible even by the most basic standards, my locos did fine around the tighter curves but they didn't look very realistic. I got more trouble from the articulated diner car.
Keep it civil folks or I will lock this.
One more simple thought, as far back as the early 50's, Tru-Scale made their "Ready Track", a high quality ready to use track system, in sizes every 2" from 14" radius all the way up to 48" radius. They sold it for 4 decades or more. We always stocked and sold a fair amount of it in the 24" to 36" range when I worked in a hobby shop.
Again, simply pointing out that the idea of broad curves is neither new or reserved to the "extravagant rich" or do it yourself craftsman in this hobby.
Sheldon
Burlington Northern #24 Running steam on tight curves my fault because I had yet to buy any wider curves. Poor track work my fault because track nails bent to easily and I didn't have power wires for my layout yet. Maintenance I don't do it very often but I do, do it before I run the loco especially after a week + of sitting. Tender derailments/ rolling stock derailments depends upon tender/ rolling stock ad if User error was involved. No I'm not an exact to prototype modeler, no I'm not in the NMRA, no I'm not in Opsig. if there are requirements to be considered a "model railroader" then frankly I will not partake in this hobby. I run scale speed, I follow simple practices like track occupation, and other basic things. if that's what it is than all I really am is a collector with shelf queens who run the roundy round, because I don't possess a layout. while everybody's experiences and opinions differ from my own, why should one be scrutinized for something that they are willing to own up to.
Running steam on tight curves my fault because I had yet to buy any wider curves. Poor track work my fault because track nails bent to easily and I didn't have power wires for my layout yet. Maintenance I don't do it very often but I do, do it before I run the loco especially after a week + of sitting. Tender derailments/ rolling stock derailments depends upon tender/ rolling stock ad if User error was involved.
No I'm not an exact to prototype modeler, no I'm not in the NMRA, no I'm not in Opsig. if there are requirements to be considered a "model railroader" then frankly I will not partake in this hobby. I run scale speed, I follow simple practices like track occupation, and other basic things. if that's what it is than all I really am is a collector with shelf queens who run the roundy round, because I don't possess a layout.
Gary, Everyone should partake in this hobby however they wish, to whatever degree they wish.
BUT, it is unreasonable to complain about the performance of the models when you do not follow the known path to success.
Gary,
Please do not allow others to bother you! I hope you are in this hobby to have fun with it. The stupid-petty arguments that some just seem to cherish here, are ways for small people to make themselves look like a big deal in a very small, simple hobby. Forget them! Forget what they think about things and remember, opinions are like...What? And everyone has one!
BRAKIE Sheldon,The AHM Y6B could go around a 18" curve but,it looked horrible but,around it went due to the frame being hinge.A lot of the "train set" type of steam locomotives(4-4-0s,2-6-0s,2-6-2,2-6-4s,4-6-2,2-8-0s 2-8-2s,2-8-4 plus other like wheel arragements.) was built to use 18" curves found in train sets and there's been thousands of train sets released that included the engines I named and all one needs to do is a little research to see these sets.Manufacturers also know most modelers doesn't have large sweeping curves on their small to bedroom size layouts. Large locomotives requires large curves to look right while 2-6-4s to 4-8-4s can use 22-24" curves and still look decent.Small freight engines like 2-8-0s and 2-8-2s can use 18" curves. You judge these train sets-notice the Big Boy set..IIRC these came with either 22" or 24" curves. http://hoseeker.net/ahminformation/ahmsaleslist1972pg10.jpg
Sheldon,The AHM Y6B could go around a 18" curve but,it looked horrible but,around it went due to the frame being hinge.A lot of the "train set" type of steam locomotives(4-4-0s,2-6-0s,2-6-2,2-6-4s,4-6-2,2-8-0s 2-8-2s,2-8-4 plus other like wheel arragements.) was built to use 18" curves found in train sets and there's been thousands of train sets released that included the engines I named and all one needs to do is a little research to see these sets.Manufacturers also know most modelers doesn't have large sweeping curves on their small to bedroom size layouts.
Large locomotives requires large curves to look right while 2-6-4s to 4-8-4s can use 22-24" curves and still look decent.Small freight engines like 2-8-0s and 2-8-2s can use 18" curves.
You judge these train sets-notice the Big Boy set..IIRC these came with either 22" or 24" curves.
http://hoseeker.net/ahminformation/ahmsaleslist1972pg10.jpg
Larry, I grew up in this hobby in the very same era as all those products, I know they generally will run on small curves - BUT - those manufacturers left off lots of detail and/or fudged dimensions to allow clear swings for lead and trailing trucks - not so with most of today's models.
And a Y6b has very small drivers, so each "engine" has a short wheelbase - way different from a Big Boy or a GS4.
Also, back to part of the OP's original premise, and a related point he brought up in a different thread (that he eventually locked) - Those locos from that era did not really run that well, and the plastic ones (AHM, etc) did not pull well at all "out of the box".
The AHM three pole motors were weak and had no slow speed. In fact slow speed like we have today simply did not exist except in brass or a carefully build and tuned Bowser kit - and neither ran that well "out of the box".
My point remains - if you push these little machines to the limits of their engineering, you will have more problems.
I like less problems.
Now, at the risk of getting in trouble, I don't know where you live, or how long you have been in this hobby. But at least around here, I will again challenge the "most modelers don'y have sweeping curves on their small to bedroom sized layout" theory.
Sure, many modelers start out with 4x8 or similar layouts - maybe they should rethink a Big Boy at that stage of the hobby. But here in the Mid Atlantic, even 35 years ago, the land of the universal basement under the 1500 to 2000 sq foot rancher, lots of modelers have always had room, and chosen to build layouts with 30", 36" or even bigger radius curves - even if the layout was not "basement filling".
All the 40, 50 and 80 year old (yes the BSME is over 80 years old) club layouts around here have 36" and larger curves - and some of them are in buildings no bigger than 20' x 50'.
Again my other point - it has been common knowledge in this hobby for half a century or longer that larger curves are better - so to the OP and others - build bigger curves or buy equipment suitable to what you have - but stop crying.
richhotrain BRAKIE richhotrain Aiming for zero derailments is a worthwhile goal. But it is very hard to attain. Rich Rich,Sorry,I don't understand that at all..I'm not the world's best track layer but, I can still obtain derailment free operation. Anybody can obtain that goal since all it takes is careful track laying,correct wheel gauge and coupler and trip pin height.A NMRA gauge check of a switch should make you aware of any potential problems with the switch even before its laid..A belt sander ran across the cork roadbed will remove any potential problems in the cork. How hards that? Larry, maybe it just comes down to a matter of semantics. If it is not hard, your original statement that prompted my reply, then it must be easy. Let's start there. Based upon my own experience over the past 7 years with my current layout, I can tell you that for me it is not easy - - - to attain zero derailments, that is. Well, if it is not easy, as I would maintain, and if it is not hard, as you would contend, then it must not be very hard. But, for me, If it is not not very hard, then it must be very hard. How's that? LOL Look, try as I might, over the past 7 years to make my current layout bullet proof, track wise, I cannot claim zero derailments. And, from all the guys that we have heard from, neither can many others make that claim. So, I will return to my original assertion. Aiming for zero derailments is a worthwhile goal. But it is very hard to attain. Not impossible, perhaps, but very hard. Rich
BRAKIE richhotrain Aiming for zero derailments is a worthwhile goal. But it is very hard to attain. Rich Rich,Sorry,I don't understand that at all..I'm not the world's best track layer but, I can still obtain derailment free operation. Anybody can obtain that goal since all it takes is careful track laying,correct wheel gauge and coupler and trip pin height.A NMRA gauge check of a switch should make you aware of any potential problems with the switch even before its laid..A belt sander ran across the cork roadbed will remove any potential problems in the cork. How hards that?
richhotrain Aiming for zero derailments is a worthwhile goal. But it is very hard to attain. Rich
Aiming for zero derailments is a worthwhile goal. But it is very hard to attain.
Rich,Sorry,I don't understand that at all..I'm not the world's best track layer but, I can still obtain derailment free operation.
Anybody can obtain that goal since all it takes is careful track laying,correct wheel gauge and coupler and trip pin height.A NMRA gauge check of a switch should make you aware of any potential problems with the switch even before its laid..A belt sander ran across the cork roadbed will remove any potential problems in the cork.
How hards that?
Larry, maybe it just comes down to a matter of semantics.
If it is not hard, your original statement that prompted my reply, then it must be easy.
Let's start there. Based upon my own experience over the past 7 years with my current layout, I can tell you that for me it is not easy - - - to attain zero derailments, that is.
Well, if it is not easy, as I would maintain, and if it is not hard, as you would contend, then it must not be very hard. But, for me, If it is not not very hard, then it must be very hard.
How's that? LOL
Look, try as I might, over the past 7 years to make my current layout bullet proof, track wise, I cannot claim zero derailments. And, from all the guys that we have heard from, neither can many others make that claim.
So, I will return to my original assertion. Aiming for zero derailments is a worthwhile goal. But it is very hard to attain. Not impossible, perhaps, but very hard.
Rich, I am in total agreement with you. Certainly, problem free track is a goal and maintaining problem free track takes work!
Also, you need to consider that Brakie is running diesels and not steam and these other folks who have the opinion that steam and diesel are just as operationally easy to keep on the track, have some secret they're not telling the rest of us about what they've done to they're track-work and steam locomotives to make them fool proof!
DigitalGriffin Someone once asked me why I liked steam trains. This answer came from my mouth unrehearsed (more or less) A steam engine was not just a train. It was and is a massive, complex living beast that turned simple coal and water into a roaring thunder that echoed down the rails, generating thousands of horse power. Steam trains dragged long hauls of goods and people through often unseen areas ot the country. The steam train also produced a sound like no other; a deep resonance and rythm that could rock you to sleep, yet be heard for miles. The engines movement was a well cordinated dance between openly visible gears, wheels and rods. The steam train even smelled of power; a strange mix of oil, steam, greese, and coal. And there just wasn't one type of steam. There were as many varied styles of steam engines as there were stars in the sky. They just weren't retangular boxes. The engineer and fireman had a special relation with the engines they drove. Each one was like a lady. They knew how to get the most out of her by experience. The men who worked these machines led hard lives. They were often exposed to the elements and worked long hours. Yet this didn't stop many a boy from dreaming of being an engineer of a steam train some day. Back then trains mattered even more then they do today. They helped build this country. Steam trains were the lifeline for many a town where potential mayoral candidates would proclaim on their platform, "I will bring the railroad to this town!"
Someone once asked me why I liked steam trains. This answer came from my mouth unrehearsed (more or less)
A steam engine was not just a train. It was and is a massive, complex living beast that turned simple coal and water into a roaring thunder that echoed down the rails, generating thousands of horse power. Steam trains dragged long hauls of goods and people through often unseen areas ot the country. The steam train also produced a sound like no other; a deep resonance and rythm that could rock you to sleep, yet be heard for miles. The engines movement was a well cordinated dance between openly visible gears, wheels and rods. The steam train even smelled of power; a strange mix of oil, steam, greese, and coal. And there just wasn't one type of steam. There were as many varied styles of steam engines as there were stars in the sky. They just weren't retangular boxes.
The engineer and fireman had a special relation with the engines they drove. Each one was like a lady. They knew how to get the most out of her by experience. The men who worked these machines led hard lives. They were often exposed to the elements and worked long hours. Yet this didn't stop many a boy from dreaming of being an engineer of a steam train some day.
Back then trains mattered even more then they do today. They helped build this country. Steam trains were the lifeline for many a town where potential mayoral candidates would proclaim on their platform, "I will bring the railroad to this town!"
Don, that is well said, and it reminds me of something that I have thought about many times before.
It seems to me that model railroading cannot do justice to steam, at least not in HO scale or smaller.
As a kid, I ran American Flyer steamers, and they looked pretty cool.
My buddies ran steamers in O gauge and they looked even cooler (except for that third rail, of course).
If you are going to model steam, and do it justice, do it in a scale larger than HO.
Gidday NP2626, apology accepted, now its my turn to shoot myself in the foot.
Please don't take others opposing opinions as an insult to yourself, yes, there can be robust differences of opinion.
In my opinion without them this forum would be a complete waste of time if we practised "political correctness" but apart from mentions of the "flame wars" from well before my time, while there some really opinionated contributors I've never seen any deliberate personal nastiness.
"Model Railroading is Fun".
Cheers, the Bear.
"One difference between pessimists and optimists is that while pessimists are more often right, optimists have far more fun."
Yes my diesel collection has grown. It rivals my steam, but only because I wanted a complete history of the C&O (pre Chessie). And while diesels are more hardy, given the chance, I would get more steam. Steam will always be my favorite by far. But there's fewer and fewer and fewer companies making steam.
I gave up hope for C&O Greenbriar, Pacfic, Hudson, and H-7 classes in plastic. So I got (most) of them in brass. And brass is even more maintenance.
Sure, steam trains take more maintenence. The real steam engines did to. But when I see steam, I imagine a simpler time of man and machine.
Signed,
A kid born in 71- well after the end of steam.
NP2626 Sheldon, So, you actually have had problems, then? You've had to spend some time with new locomotives, fine tuning them! This blows your first assertions all to heck, that your stuff runs great, right out of the box! I have only been a member of the NMRA for 6 months. I didn't find membership to seem worthwhile. Now your also telling me that our wonderous manufacturers lie about the capibilities of their products. This is also a contradiction of what you's said before. Are they doing everything right, or not? Back to the topic of this thread, although derailing has been one of the problems I've encountered with my newer steam locos, it is not the only one. Also, I don't have large steam locomotives. With 22 inch radius curves, large steam locomotives were never a part of my plan! My biggest steamer is a Rivarossi Mikado, kit bashed to a Northern Pacific W-3 Mike, which, by the way, operates just fine on my 22 inch radius curves. What I seem to be seeing posed here is that some of you feel I am wrong about my findings with my layout and my equipment! I have to say that this really seems a foolish assertion! I would never doubt any of the problems you might have with the stuff you own, how could I possibly prevail with that opinion!
Sheldon,
So, you actually have had problems, then? You've had to spend some time with new locomotives, fine tuning them! This blows your first assertions all to heck, that your stuff runs great, right out of the box!
I have only been a member of the NMRA for 6 months. I didn't find membership to seem worthwhile.
Now your also telling me that our wonderous manufacturers lie about the capibilities of their products. This is also a contradiction of what you's said before. Are they doing everything right, or not?
Back to the topic of this thread, although derailing has been one of the problems I've encountered with my newer steam locos, it is not the only one. Also, I don't have large steam locomotives. With 22 inch radius curves, large steam locomotives were never a part of my plan! My biggest steamer is a Rivarossi Mikado, kit bashed to a Northern Pacific W-3 Mike, which, by the way, operates just fine on my 22 inch radius curves.
What I seem to be seeing posed here is that some of you feel I am wrong about my findings with my layout and my equipment! I have to say that this really seems a foolish assertion! I would never doubt any of the problems you might have with the stuff you own, how could I possibly prevail with that opinion!
I don't know anything about your layout or your equipment, I only know about my experiences in the last 44 years in this hobby. Which includes 10 years working in hobby shops selling and repairing trains and 20 plus years of off and on membership in several well known/published clubs and modeling groups.
There is not one piece of motive power or rolling stock on my layout that is "exactly" the way it came "out of the box". My standards require genuine Kadee couplers, metal wheels, sprung trucks when practical, close coupling of diesels and passenger cars, and working/touching diaphragms on all equipment as applicable.
My standards require that steam locos back up through #6 crossovers pushing 40 cars, so I add weight to tenders, and that also helps with other typical "issues".
I have not found diesels to be any less in need of "tweeking" than steam locos, but the issues between the two are typically different.
I published on this forum my "improvement tips" for Bachmann steam locos a long time ago, that does not mean that these locos did not run well before those improvements, it just means they run better now.
In purchasing 130 locos have I had a few duds? Sure. Have I had a few "perfect" - well I guess that depends on your standards, but yes.
Issues like train length, double heading, track conditions, curves, grades and more effect the results one person might have with a loco vs another person.
My first comments about track work and radius selection speak to simple engineering principals. If you operate any machine near the limits of its design, it will be less reliable. It is impossible for these manufacturers to produce these locos at these low prices - yes low prices - and build them to a level of precision that would insure that every copy perform perfectly at the outer limits of their design regarding things like minimum radius.
I have said before to others, I will say it again, the bulk of the HO model train products that have been produced in the last 40-60 years are not intended to be "plug and play", "bullet proof" toys. They are "hobby" items intended for use by individuals who understand the complex nature of the complete interplay of track and machine, and of man and machine.
For those not interested in that hobby, some products have been engineered to be more "plug and play" - products like Marklin and MTH are more geared to those not interested in "building" or adjusting" or refining the operation of anything themselves.
I'm not in that "plug and play" hobby - one, it costs too much, two it's not fun to me.
At age 13 I was building Mantua locos, hand laying track, building turnouts from Tru-Scale kits, and building wood kits for structures and rolling stock.
Buy and run whatever you like, or don't - but don't expect people like me to even understand what it is you expect from these models. Because from what I read, your expectations are unrealistic and predestined to failure.
From the early 90's to now has been the golden age of product in this hobby - if none of this product makes you happy, maybe this really is not the hobby for you.
My trains run good, steam and diesel alike, they look good and are well within my means to aford a bunch of them - I'm having great fun.
I also know that I would never even consider building a layout for the type of trains I want to run with 22 inch radius curves. Nor would I expect anything bigger than a 2-8-0 to look good or run well on such curves. I'm not say that some larger locos might not be OK, but just because one brand of 2-8-2 runs on 22" curves, does not mean they will or should.
I will repeat, my SMALLEST curves are 36" and I would NEVER buy and expect to run a GS4, or 4-12-2, or UP Big Boy - because those locos all have big drivers and/or too many axles giving them LONG rigid wheelbases that are problematic on small curves.
Physics is physics - geometric physics does scale down and the ability of a steam loco to go around curves is linked to a complex set of geometry related to its wheelbase and lateral motion tolerances - all of those locos would be severely speed restricted on such a curve in real life - so why should I think that scaled down to 1:87th scale they should somehow be able to go around that curve at 50 smph?
Maybe a few will, I would rather not test that myself.
On this web site you can do a little light reading on the technical side of model railroading, then you might understand my views: http://webspace.webring.com/people/ib/budb3/index.html
As for the NMRA, it is centered around the hobby that I am in, building model trains. And maybe that is one of its shortcomings that it is not oriented enough to those who simply want to buy "plug and play" toys.