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Modeler's psychology

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Posted by Doughless on Tuesday, February 19, 2013 4:17 PM

I think some people enjoy the tug of war.  

Sometimes, when you step back and look at things in total, you can see that their replies and tone can suggest they are even cleverly disguising a cordial trolling for conflict.

Those threads tend to linger because the trolling goes undetected compared to those that are more direct and less cordial.

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Posted by BRAKIE on Tuesday, February 19, 2013 4:21 PM

eaglescout
Now if they take the first answer they get they will have a 50/50 chance of it being right or at least solving the problem without doing major damage.

Or they can go to you tube and watch a video on how its done in less time it takes to do a topic and wait on the replies and the difference of opinions it brings.

The newbie has options that has never been available before and I think they may be a tad smarter then ever before.

I've had non modeling  teenagers during the week of the fair ask about DCC and how sound works..

How did they find out?

When I ask that question I was told "I saw it on you tube".

So,you tube may be a   ambassador for our hobby.

Larry

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Posted by BRAKIE on Tuesday, February 19, 2013 4:31 PM

Doughless

I think some people enjoy the tug of war.  

Sometimes, when you step back and look at things in total, you can see that their replies and tone can suggest they are even cleverly disguising a cordial trolling for conflict.

Those threads tend to linger because the trolling goes undetected compared to those that are more direct and less cordial.

I always like to show the other side of the coin for consideration since there's always other possible ways of  doing things..Nothing in this hobby is cut and dry since there's several correct answers to the same question..

I know of two right now..Your way and my way and both ways are correct.Now add 2 or more pages of opinions then you have the trigger for a discussion.

Things can be discussed without being called "trolling".

Larry

Conductor.

Summerset Ry.


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Posted by Doughless on Tuesday, February 19, 2013 4:44 PM

BRAKIE

Doughless

I think some people enjoy the tug of war.  

Sometimes, when you step back and look at things in total, you can see that their replies and tone can suggest they are even cleverly disguising a cordial trolling for conflict.

Those threads tend to linger because the trolling goes undetected compared to those that are more direct and less cordial.

I always like to show the other side of the coin for consideration since there's always other possible ways of  doing things..Nothing in this hobby is cut and dry since there's several correct answers to the same question..

I know of two right now..Your way and my way and both ways are correct.Now add 2 or more pages of opinions then you have the trigger for a discussion.

Things can be discussed without being called "trolling".

Larry, I understand that conflict and differences of opinion is not considered trolling.  

But if a person posts a response with the intent of picking a fight, I consider that trolling.  Sometimes in a discussion with differing opinions, you can tell the difference between a response that is sincere, and one that has a hidden purpose.

- Douglas

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Posted by BRAKIE on Tuesday, February 19, 2013 5:02 PM

Doughless

But if a person posts a response with the intent of picking a fight, I consider that trolling.  Sometimes in a discussion with differing opinions, you can tell the difference between a response that is sincere, and one that has a hidden purpose.

Agreed..I've seen both types and have in times pass been accused of trolling only because my opinion  was the other side of the coin that is seldom mention..Of course some of my thoughts goes against the grain but,I just happen to know they work and if it didn't I would never mention it.

I won't answer DCC or electrical questions because I know just enough about DCC to get what I need done..Electrial..Want advice on wiring a Atlas selector or Atlas switch controller? Mischief  That's where my electrical knowledge bus stops and that's all I need to know.I can run a bus and drop feeders but,I prefer controllers for block wiring-1 wire to each block..Simple no?

My DCC wiring been 2 wires to the track .That works quite well for small ISLs and probably 4x8' layouts.

Larry

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Posted by Doughless on Tuesday, February 19, 2013 6:08 PM

Larry,

Just for your records, I like ISL's, sectional track, and prefer DC control with few electrical complications.  My ISL is about 35 feet long, with two loops at each end for continuous running for simple display.  It may not look like the typical switching layout, but it operates the same.  The size presents some issues that aren't typically found in layouts with such a simplistic operating scheme, so I have gotten use to needing to forge my own path to accomplish some things.  Conventional solutions that are typically offered for a layout of my size end up being way overkill for my situation, because the operation is different than normal.

I have about 100 feet of track.  Probably 25 percent is sectional for various reasons that suit me.

But that is for another thread..

- Douglas

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Posted by Geared Steam on Tuesday, February 19, 2013 6:28 PM

BRAKIE

Geared Steam

It's because things has already been figured out, don't waste time or resources reinventing the wheel. 

I wonder where we would be today if the wheel wasn't reinvented by those that pushed old ideas?

Take a close look there's nothing in the hobby that hasn't already been done.

We already had freight and passenger  cars and the locomotives to pull them.

Somebody reinvented the wheel by adding spokes(details)..

We already knew how to build mountains but,the wheel was reinvented using foam.

We already had sectional track yet,it was reinvented with plastic roadbed..

Even DCC wouldn't be here if the wheel wasn't reinvented..We ran trains using block system and did quite well.

Uh yea, okay, interesting.

Let me use your angle if I may, Just because someone is doing something different than everyone else doesn't make it a good idea. There must be some knowledge and experience to >improve< on what there already is. Key word here.....>improve<

So I want go ahead and make square wheels because the round ones are just too darn expensive. Would you hop on board that build thread too? 

(maybe I should put in disclaimer so no one can sue me first?)

Whatever Larry....whatever...

Whistling

"The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge but imagination."-Albert Einstein

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Posted by Timh on Tuesday, February 19, 2013 6:37 PM

Doughless

Larry,

Just for your records, I like ISL's, sectional track, and prefer DC control with few electrical complications.  My ISL is about 35 feet long, with two loops at each end for continuous running for simple display.  It may not look like the typical switching layout, but it operates the same.  The size presents some issues that aren't typically found in layouts with such a simplistic operating scheme, so I have gotten use to needing to forge my own path to accomplish some things.  Conventional solutions that are typically offered for a layout of my size end up being way overkill for my situation, because the operation is different than normal.

I have about 100 feet of track.  Probably 25 percent is sectional for various reasons that suit me.

But that is for another thread..

And...DC is much less expensive to implement.  I may have added way too many blocks in my 1x4 N-scale layout, but I wanted future flexibility.  I have a companion 1x4 staging yard for later use.  

Keeping with the spirit of this thread, is the trend to move everything towards DCC?  

Tim

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Posted by Texas Zepher on Tuesday, February 19, 2013 7:18 PM

BRAKIE
DSchmitt
Texas Zepher
I am actually amused sometimes that after a question has been answered very well that people will still continue to answer.
So am I, and often the additional answers are incorrect.
Since our hobby has no hard set rules then by whose standards do we judge a answer by?.

The laws of mathematics and physics.   There are many answers to the questions people ask that involves the simple application of Ohm's law, Watt's law, application of geometry, or trigonometry.   The answer is the answer regardless of what anyone else "judges".    The answer to, "Can I put an 18" radius loop of track on a 2 foot table" is no.

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Posted by BRAKIE on Tuesday, February 19, 2013 8:19 PM

Texas Zepher
The laws of mathematics and physics.   There are many answers to the questions people ask that involves the simple application of Ohm's law, Watt's law, application of geometry, or trigonometry.  

TZ, By golly I guess I missed the train because in my 55 plus years in the hobby I never had to use those laws..In fact I been out of school for so long I have long forgotten those laws since I never used them in life.

A  MRC power pack and two wires is basically what I been using even with by old DCC on my past ISLs and few loop layouts..I'm now using a MRC Tech 6 and yup-two wires to the track..

When I do use blocks Atlas selectors gets the job done.Even wiring a Tortoise switch machine doesn't require a degree in electronics.

Complication or simplicity.

 

Larry

Conductor.

Summerset Ry.


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Posted by Geared Steam on Tuesday, February 19, 2013 8:30 PM

BRAKIE

Texas Zepher
The laws of mathematics and physics.   There are many answers to the questions people ask that involves the simple application of Ohm's law, Watt's law, application of geometry, or trigonometry.  

TZ, By golly I guess I missed the train because in my 55 plus years in the hobby I never had to use those laws..In fact I been out of school for so long I have long forgotten those laws since I never used them in life.

Larry

As a brakeman, you never used math? You never counted cars, divided added, multiplied? 

Physics you say? I bet you knew how far a car would drift with a shove of the loco based on your past experiences of that empty vs loaded boxcar, on the incline/grade/ on certain sidings?

I bet you also used geometry, more than your cared to admit or realized.

Big Smile

No matter anyways, I heard that Elvis has left the building, to the tune of Frank Sinatra's "My Way" playing in the background.  

"The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge but imagination."-Albert Einstein

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Posted by rdgk1se3019 on Tuesday, February 19, 2013 8:56 PM

BRAKIE
Things can be discussed without being called "trolling"

Isn`t that when you stick an electric motor on a bass boat to go fishing? Clown

Dennis Blank Jr.

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Posted by BRAKIE on Tuesday, February 19, 2013 8:58 PM

Geared Steam

BRAKIE

Texas Zepher
The laws of mathematics and physics.   There are many answers to the questions people ask that involves the simple application of Ohm's law, Watt's law, application of geometry, or trigonometry.  

TZ, By golly I guess I missed the train because in my 55 plus years in the hobby I never had to use those laws..In fact I been out of school for so long I have long forgotten those laws since I never used them in life.

Larry

As a brakeman, you never used math? You never counted cars, divided added, multiplied? 

Physics you say? I bet you knew how far a car would drift with a shove of the loco based on your past experiences of that empty vs loaded boxcar, on the incline/grade/ on certain sidings?

I bet you also used geometry, more than your cared to admit or realized.

Big Smile

No matter anyways, I heard that Elvis has left the building, to the tune of Frank Sinatra's "My Way" playing in the background.  

Basic math like counting cars is child play.90% of the time there was no need since you know your cut will be between C&O 456320 and ATSF 765652..See how easy? You pulled the cars and stop to make the cut..Of course that was back in the day..

As far as kicking cars..No math needed at all..Shove 'em west for the kick 6133,that will do 6133! pull the pin and watch the car roll..Next car is ready for the kick..Take 'em east 6133 that will do..6133 Shove 'em west for the kick,that'll do 6133.If the car stop before the joint the next car will shove to the joint if not,we'll push the cars to the joint.

Doing it your way and you might switch 90 cars in 12 hours.

Doing it the way I was taught a heads up crew could flat switch 300-400 cars in 12 hours..

Simple as pie and twice as easy..

Larry

Conductor.

Summerset Ry.


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Posted by BRAKIE on Tuesday, February 19, 2013 9:06 PM

rdgk1se3019

BRAKIE
Things can be discussed without being called "trolling"

Isn`t that when you stick an electric motor on a bass boat to go fishing? Clown

I guess I better take my trolling motor off my 14' jon boat..Laugh

Larry

Conductor.

Summerset Ry.


"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt  Safety First!"

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Posted by Rastafarr on Tuesday, February 19, 2013 9:13 PM

eaglescout
Hopefully newbies have enough common sense to evaluate the responses they get to their questions.  As a newbie a couple of years ago I asked a question about using brass track that started a flame and I got many and numerous responses.  I did more research and finally made my decision taking into account all the pros and cons.

Good lord, I'll second that. A few months back I asked a blazingly stupid question, got a well-reasoned and interesting response, and offered a viewpoint that was, without really meaning to be, powerfully offensive to the person trying to help me. He got mad (rightly, I see now in retrospect). Response received, evaluated, idiocy and blame fully mine, point taken, will endeavour to not repeat the mistake. RichHOtrain, If you're still irritated with me, I am sorry. 

Streamlined steam, oh, what a dream!!

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Posted by dehusman on Tuesday, February 19, 2013 9:57 PM

BRAKIE

I always like to show the other side of the coin for consideration since there's always other possible ways of  doing things..Nothing in this hobby is cut and dry since there's several correct answers to the same question..

I know of two right now..Your way and my way and both ways are correct.Now add 2 or more pages of opinions then you have the trigger for a discussion.

Things can be discussed without being called "trolling".

 
Exactamundo.
 
We have occaisionally disagreed on rules questions, but it was a case of two different rule books, so both of us were "right".  It just depends on which rule book and operations was the basis. of the answer.  If we have disagreed it not that  I dispute anything  you say, its just that my experience is different because I have worked in areas with different rules and different infrastucture.  I respect the experience of professional railroaders and know that they may have an experience that is different from mine.
 
That's why I always say the location and era are critical to giving the "correct" answer.

Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com

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Posted by Paulus Jas on Wednesday, February 20, 2013 1:00 PM

hi gentlemen,

though earlier today i saw one of SUX's threads locked, they are all vanished by now.

Is some-one able to delete his (or her) own threads or is it done by an administrator?

BTW Byron Henderson's remarks about applauding machines came into my mind, as well as an other one:

"Don't ask me what I think about you

I might give an answer you don't want me to"

from a song by Fleetwood Mac

Smile

Paul 

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Posted by DSchmitt on Wednesday, February 20, 2013 1:39 PM

Not all the threads started by SUX are gone.  Looks like just his How To's and the rant when he quit.

Threads are locked and removed by admintrators.

His using 3M Command Strips for temporary track placement appears to be a good idea, but the How To was too complicated.

Awhile back another member got mad and quit.  He edited all his posts to remove the content.

One thread I started was removed. They sent me a notice and explantaton.  I think the administrator was overzealous and disagreed with the reason, but accepted it and went on. Still enjoy this Forum.  

 

I tried to sell my two cents worth, but no one would give me a plug nickel for it.

I don't have a leg to stand on.

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Posted by dehusman on Wednesday, February 20, 2013 1:44 PM

A user can only delete his posts if there are no replies.  What SUX did was edit his posts to remove content and replaced it with a dash or period.

The moderators deleted the actual threads.

Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com

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Posted by Texas Zepher on Wednesday, February 20, 2013 1:45 PM

BRAKIE
Texas Zepher
The laws of mathematics and physics.   There are many answers to the questions people ask that involves the simple application of Ohm's law, Watt's law, application of geometry, or trigonometry.  
TZ, By golly I guess I missed the train because in my 55 plus years in the hobby I never had to use those laws..In fact I been out of school for so long I have long forgotten those laws since I never used them in life.

A  MRC power pack and two wires is basically what I been using even with by old DCC on my past ISLs and few loop layouts..I'm now using a MRC Tech 6 and yup-two wires to the track..

When I do use blocks Atlas selectors gets the job done.Even wiring a Tortoise switch machine doesn't require a degree in electronics.

Complication or simplicity.

Well, apparently you also missed the the simple point I was making, so I'll try again.

Some questions people ask have real and correct answers which are not subject to judgement.  Once someone has answered that question, there is no further need of other people to "continue" to answer it.

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Posted by leighant on Wednesday, February 20, 2013 2:31 PM

This thread should be renamed FORUMERS' Psychology.

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Posted by BATMAN on Wednesday, February 20, 2013 2:38 PM

Paulus Jas

"Don't ask me what I think about you

I might give an answer you don't want me to"

from a song by Fleetwood Mac

Smile

Paul 

This may be true. However there is a tendency for people on this forum to say what they think without an invitation to do so.
Ask any Psychologist why so many people spew forth with hate, vile and negativity, and the good Doctor will tell you that people are generally lazy by nature. It take's more effort to respond in a kind, respectful manner and even more to turn the other cheek.
 
While SUX seemed less than receptive to most responses to his thread's. His thread's would have died a quick death if like an earlier responder had quoted "we just let go of the rope".
I think their is room for everyone here on the forum. A bad idea or not, with more experience he may have come up with a real winner down the road. However if someone finds he is not being included, he may need to look inward and change his behaviour or find a new sandbox to play in.

Brent

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Posted by IRONROOSTER on Wednesday, February 20, 2013 3:16 PM

Texas Zepher

...

Some questions people ask have real and correct answers which are not subject to judgement.  Once someone has answered that question, there is no further need of other people to "continue" to answer it.

Yeah, but there are fewer of those than many people think.

Enjoy

Paul

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Posted by BRAKIE on Wednesday, February 20, 2013 3:35 PM

Texas Zepher

Some questions people ask have real and correct answers which are not subject to judgement.  Once someone has answered that question, there is no further need of other people to "continue" to answer it.

Some questions may have other answers then those posted that may be a easier way to do things..

 

Larry

Conductor.

Summerset Ry.


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Posted by cedarwoodron on Wednesday, February 20, 2013 4:00 PM
I would rather have an enthusiastic bunch of answers to a question than a paucity of information- or worse, none at all. I feel gratified when Jim Bernier, Doc Wayne, Darth Santa Fe and others actually take the time to reply to my questions. They have greater knowledge than I do and it is fortunate that I have access to their perspective- one of the great things about our Information Age! Sure, sometimes there is a light years lag between query and reply, as in: "I'm amused that people will reply to a thread that originated in 2008, and the last post was in 2010." But that only reflects that there are many others who want answers who come late to the conversation. And we should be thankful, given the constant patter about the shrinking demographics of our hobby, that there are many others coming online to participate- let's keep the door open as wide as possible! One final thought- it would be a fantastic thing if we could better index the helpful information that passes through this forum, which might make the modelers research more efficient. Not that I have the ability or time for it, but ...... Cedarwoodron
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Posted by Doughless on Wednesday, February 20, 2013 4:13 PM

I agree that turning the other cheek is the best way to avoid conflict.  

But these are not private conversations where someone can just walk away with no consequences.

This is a public forum with world-wide viewing and any viewer can get bad information, or a bad tutorial, that may lead them to think some cobbled together cork and track pieces will replace Atlas Tru-track.  

Imagine someone considering the hobby and embarks on his method. Spends the money and gawd-awful time hacking away a perfectly good slab of cork, gluing up perfectly good track,  and winds up walking away from the hobby disappointed, all the while blaming a tutorial that he found on a serious publishers website (or wondering if you need to wear a hat to play with trains)

Perhaps it a bit arrogant of us, but some of us were trying to do the viewers a favor by pinning him down to what he was trying to accomplish and to checkmate his evasive and insincere answers.

- Douglas

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Posted by eaglescout on Wednesday, February 20, 2013 4:16 PM

If I get 10 responses that laying track with caulk is the best way to do it even though it has already been stated 9 times I can feel more confident in going that route rather than reading one response with no other affirmations.  Likewise, if I happen to accept one post that says laying track with CA is the best way to do it with no comments to the contrary I will end up with a big mess.  Over time I have begun to develp a feel for what information is legitimate on the forum and what information is better forgotten about.

If one really wants a more certified "right way" to do something they would do well to purchase one of the books that cover that part of the hobby.  Being cheap I don't want to purchase every book available at $20 a clip, though I have purchased a few.  The more critical the process the more I take time and research to make sure I am getting good and reliable information.

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Posted by ONR FAN on Wednesday, February 20, 2013 4:36 PM

eaglescout

If I get 10 responses that laying track with caulk is the best way to do it even though it has already been stated 9 times I can feel more confident in going that route rather than reading one response with no other affirmations.

But what if the majority of the responses are from people that have never actually used caulk.  I notice that there are a number of posters here that just agree for no other reason then to just add their comment.  Some posters don't even have a layout but if you read their posts they know everything there is about building one. 

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Posted by cedarwoodron on Wednesday, February 20, 2013 4:56 PM
My policy, in replying to others' threads, is to offer my method or knowledge of something, that I have actually done or do as a practice, or know something about. If I come across an interesting item that may be of use in the hobby, I will offer my experience with it and where I got it as a possible aid to others. No one pays us for our opinions here, rather it is the concept of sharing that should be the principal motivatation for joining a conversation on a topic. Otherwise, all we might end up with is frustration, not education. ( yeah, I know that sounds corny, but.....) Cedarwoodron
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Posted by BRAKIE on Wednesday, February 20, 2013 5:45 PM

ONR FAN
Some posters don't even have a layout but if you read their posts they know everything there is about building one. 

I currently don't have a layout but,you can bet the farm I know how to build one since I've built several over the years.I understand the basics of using caulk  only because I seen it used.I've used white glue to hold the track in place on Woodland Scenics foam roadbed on my last layout and plan on using it on the next.

However..

I wonder if one never built or even help build a layout how do they get their experience?

From books? Magazines?

I suspect they do a lot of studying and can answer basic questions or design a layout.

 But,having no hands on experience with caulk,glue etc then perhaps they shouldn't answer a topic covering such things?

 

Larry

Conductor.

Summerset Ry.


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