richhotrainIn the final analysis, I am a happy camper because, in the absence of a true branch line, I can conduct local switching operations without fouling the main line.
Rich
I know very little about operations, I think if it were me, that's what I would do, but then again I know very little of the subject.
Sam
dehusman richhotrain dehusman Does that help clarify the mechanics of what a local does? What I thought you might be suggesting was a way to set out and drop cars on a single spur without interfering with, or fouling, the main line. Why is that a problem? That's how railroad's work. The way you did it in the photo sequence is how I assumed that it had to be done. But it does require the use of the main line. So, to avoid that, I am going to try and make that a 2-track spur. How will making it a "two track spur" keep you from using the main track? A two track spur would work no differently than a one track spur other than instead of taking cars out of and putting cars into the same track, you take cars out of one track and put them in the other.
richhotrain dehusman Does that help clarify the mechanics of what a local does? What I thought you might be suggesting was a way to set out and drop cars on a single spur without interfering with, or fouling, the main line.
dehusman Does that help clarify the mechanics of what a local does?
Does that help clarify the mechanics of what a local does?
What I thought you might be suggesting was a way to set out and drop cars on a single spur without interfering with, or fouling, the main line.
Why is that a problem? That's how railroad's work.
The way you did it in the photo sequence is how I assumed that it had to be done. But it does require the use of the main line. So, to avoid that, I am going to try and make that a 2-track spur.
How will making it a "two track spur" keep you from using the main track? A two track spur would work no differently than a one track spur other than instead of taking cars out of and putting cars into the same track, you take cars out of one track and put them in the other.
Dave,
Everything you are saying about operations is helpful and informative to me, and I am taking it all in.
But you have to remember, as an operations neophyte, I am like an impressionable young child.
Someone says it is best not to foul the main line with local switching operations, so I decide to take that advice to heart and try to avoid fouling the main line with local switching operations.
So, I start this thread and then come to understand that fouling the main line with local switching is not so bad and real railroads do it all the time. Still, I am intrigued by the prospect of local switching without fouling the main line.
Of my four industries, only one would currently require spotting a car on the main line since it is a single track spur. If I can add another track to the spur, then I can spot the incoming car(s) on the second track while I pick up the outgoing car(s) on the first track. As it turns out, I can add that second track and, in doing so, I can complete the switching operation without ever using the main line until I am ready to have the local re-enter the main line after completing the local switching.
In the final analysis, I am a happy camper because, in the absence of a true branch line, I can conduct local switching operations without fouling the main line.
Alton Junction
richhotrain dehusman You might not understand what I'm saying. [photo sequence] Does that help clarify the mechanics of what a local does? Do you see how just handling two cars consumes many moves and a lot of time (i.e. play value)? On my layout I think I can keep a local busy pulling and spotting 6-9 cars (i.e. 4 in, 4 out) each at 3 locations for an entire 3 hour op session. What I thought you might be suggesting was a way to set out and drop cars on a single spur without interfering with, or fouling, the main line.
dehusman You might not understand what I'm saying. [photo sequence] Does that help clarify the mechanics of what a local does? Do you see how just handling two cars consumes many moves and a lot of time (i.e. play value)? On my layout I think I can keep a local busy pulling and spotting 6-9 cars (i.e. 4 in, 4 out) each at 3 locations for an entire 3 hour op session.
You might not understand what I'm saying.
[photo sequence]
Does that help clarify the mechanics of what a local does? Do you see how just handling two cars consumes many moves and a lot of time (i.e. play value)? On my layout I think I can keep a local busy pulling and spotting 6-9 cars (i.e. 4 in, 4 out) each at 3 locations for an entire 3 hour op session.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
First of all, I enjoyed that photo sequence. Thanks for that.
I did understand what you were saying, and I do understand the mechanics of what a local does.
Your local arrives at a single ended spur, for example, the Public track (team track), at Montchanin, DE. They have one car to set out and one to pick up.
The engine comes off with the spot car (the white reefer):
It reaches in and picks up the the pull car (the PRR Great Southern Despatch boxcar):
The engine pulls it to the main:
And then shoves it back against the train, comes off with the spot car:
Shoves the spot car back to a spot.
Secures the car and comes back out to the main:
The engine shoves back to the train, they get an air test.
Fnally the train departs to the next station they have work.
Single main track.
Worked off the main.
Both set out and picked up at the same time.
It was a train, not just an engine and it had a caboose.
dehusman richhotrain dehusman Why wouldn't you just pick up the cars at the same time you set out? That's what I would do on the double ended spur. Why wouldn't you do it on the single ended spurs? That's how probably 90% of all spurs are switched (technically that's how 100% of all spurs are switched since spurs are single ended tracks). Puick up and set out at the same time from one end.
richhotrain dehusman Why wouldn't you just pick up the cars at the same time you set out? That's what I would do on the double ended spur.
dehusman Why wouldn't you just pick up the cars at the same time you set out?
Why wouldn't you just pick up the cars at the same time you set out?
That's what I would do on the double ended spur.
Why wouldn't you do it on the single ended spurs? That's how probably 90% of all spurs are switched (technically that's how 100% of all spurs are switched since spurs are single ended tracks). Puick up and set out at the same time from one end.
Dave, that is my question, at least in part.
If the industry spur is a single track right off the main line, how do you both set out and pick up cars in the most efficient manner?
Elmer,That also gives the local crew room to work..
If it was a long distance between the crossover switches then one could add a "short" crossover between the crossover switches.Railroads would do this to help shorten the time a local crew would tie up the mains since they wouldn't have a long distance to travel while making a runaround move..
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
Adding some crossovers would help, as was mentioned before. The following drawing is the way that I would add them for right-hand running. This would allow other trains to pass while you are working the sidings. You could also use them as a run-around while switching if you needed to.
Elmer.
The above is my opinion, from an active and experienced Model Railroader in N scale and HO since 1961.
(Modeling Freelance, Eastern US, HO scale, in 1962, with NCE DCC for locomotive control and a stand alone LocoNet for block detection and signals.) http://waynes-trains.com/ at home, and N scale at the Club.
cuyama richhotrainSomeone mentioned in another thread that it really helps to run industry spurs off a branch line so as not to foul the main line. That's certainly not true for a large portion of the real railroads, or it's a misuse of the term "branch line". Often, there is a siding paralleling the main to which industry spurs attach (which is not a "branch line", by definition). But on less-heavily-used secondary mains and true branches, some industry spurs connect directly -- this can even occur occasionally on busier mains, though it is a pain for the dispatcher and crews. In many cases even today, freight crews worked at night to avoid heavier traffic (such as passenger or commuter trains) in the daytime. Since you have a double-track main (apparently), you may simply have the local trains working between crossovers and route the through traffic around them, as others have pointed out. Note also that real crews (and efficient modelers) usually pull and spot cars at the same time at a given industry. That happens whether the industry spur is single-ended or double-ended.
richhotrainSomeone mentioned in another thread that it really helps to run industry spurs off a branch line so as not to foul the main line.
That's certainly not true for a large portion of the real railroads, or it's a misuse of the term "branch line". Often, there is a siding paralleling the main to which industry spurs attach (which is not a "branch line", by definition).
But on less-heavily-used secondary mains and true branches, some industry spurs connect directly -- this can even occur occasionally on busier mains, though it is a pain for the dispatcher and crews. In many cases even today, freight crews worked at night to avoid heavier traffic (such as passenger or commuter trains) in the daytime.
Since you have a double-track main (apparently), you may simply have the local trains working between crossovers and route the through traffic around them, as others have pointed out.
Note also that real crews (and efficient modelers) usually pull and spot cars at the same time at a given industry. That happens whether the industry spur is single-ended or double-ended.
Byron, thanks for those comments - - very helpful.
I do have a double main line with a number of crossovers so, as you say, fouling the main line should not be a problem.
I do plan to pull and spot cars at the same time at a given industry, as you and others have suggested.
mbinsewiAnother interesting thing, just north of where we were working, was a huge coal fired power plant, with a constant movement of unit coal trains, all of which, was located on this main line.
Mike,I switch a power plant like that in eastern Ky..We stopped on the main,set the handbrake on the caboose and uncouple and pull west of the switch and would back 140-160 cars into the power plant inbound lead and then make our pickup on their outbound lead..We would walk the the lenght of the pickups and connect airhoses,check bleeder valves,release set brake wheels etc..This operation took over a hour since we had to pump the air..
Thankfully the dispacther could use the eastbound main to run trains around us.
Doughless I think not wanting to foul the main is more common in model railroads than real ones simply because space is limited on our layouts and trains come by more frequently, prompting a need to get the switcher out of the way. It may not depict real railroad operations since there is more time to switch them, hopefully.
I think not wanting to foul the main is more common in model railroads than real ones simply because space is limited on our layouts and trains come by more frequently, prompting a need to get the switcher out of the way. It may not depict real railroad operations since there is more time to switch them, hopefully.
Not wanting to foul the main definitely gets more emphasis on model railroads than on the real thing.
One aspect of this that I've noticed is that, especially in club situations, there are those who just don't think that stopping one's train and having to wait for another train to clear up is their idea of fun.
I once had a fellow club member tell me that "If [his] train isn't moving, [he's] not having fun."
I can see that being a common sentiment, but it sure can be a problem on a club layout with several trains running that have to stay out of each other's way...
I guess it depends a bit on which game you're playing.
-Fritz Milhaupt, Publications Editor, Pere Marquette Historical Society, Inc.http://www.pmhistsoc.org
As mentioned before, piecing this together from different posts by different people with differing degrees of experience seems much harder than referring to primary sources*. Or best of all, visit an established op session or two -- you'll learn more in a couple of hours than in a couple of months on-line.
* such as Tony Koester's Realistic Model Railroad Operation: How to Run Your Trains Like the Real Thing and John Armstrong's Track Planning for Realistic Operation
Layout Design GalleryLayout Design Special Interest Group
Pull the cars to be set out into the spur, uncouple, and then push the cars to be picked up out onto the main line, reverse direction of the loco, and pull the picked up cars back to the yard.
While working on a factory addition in an industrial park in Pleasant Prairie, WI. , I got a chance to watch the UP switch industries that are located right on their main line (former CNW line), as it goes through this industrial park. There was a dead-end spur, right off the main, that was like a "frontage road", that served maybe two or three industries. Some though, were served by a single spur, right off the main. The switch crew often used the main as staging as they moved cars in and out. This is a very busy line, and the switch crew would occasionally have to wait in one of the spurs while a through train used the main. This is a double track main, so that made things a little easier.
Another interesting thing, just north of where we were working, was a huge coal fired power plant, with a constant movement of unit coal trains, all of which, was located on this main line. I was always going to "Google it" and check out the satellite view of the track layout, and see how it connected to the main.
Just my random thoughts,
Mike.
My You Tube
PRR had a local that worked between Terre Haute and E St Louis. It came west on m-w-f and went back east on t-th-sat. They worked all the trailing point industries coming west and the others on the way back the next day. So some cars made a round trip to E St Louis and got set out on the way back.
On rare occasion, they would have a hot car that had to be set out when traveling in the wrong direction and that would require a runaround move. These special moves were usually instigated by some mucky-muck in freight sales or customer service bureau and they would often make the dispatcher scream like a Lutheran farmer.
Part of the problem was even though the PRR was a double tracked road, it was single track from Smithboro to Brownstown Il and prior to the PC merger there was heavy traffic in both directions.
Charlie
BRAKIE richhotrain It is my fourth industry that raises a problem. It is a single track spur off the main line. What do you do in that case if you have cars to be dropped off and cars to be picked up? Rich,First there is no problem. What would I do? The same thing I did when I worked on the railroad.We stopped and switched out cars at the industry just like they do today and will for years to come as long as that industry requires rail service and their are thousands of such industries located along the main lines. Its ok to foul the main when there is work to perform and did you know there are thousands of small outlaying yards that uses the mainline as a yard lead? This way why I caution everybody about what they read in layout books,operation books or magazine articles written by so called "experts" that has no real clue of every day railroading.
richhotrain It is my fourth industry that raises a problem. It is a single track spur off the main line. What do you do in that case if you have cars to be dropped off and cars to be picked up?
It is my fourth industry that raises a problem. It is a single track spur off the main line. What do you do in that case if you have cars to be dropped off and cars to be picked up?
Rich,First there is no problem.
What would I do?
The same thing I did when I worked on the railroad.We stopped and switched out cars at the industry just like they do today and will for years to come as long as that industry requires rail service and their are thousands of such industries located along the main lines.
Its ok to foul the main when there is work to perform and did you know there are thousands of small outlaying yards that uses the mainline as a yard lead?
This way why I caution everybody about what they read in layout books,operation books or magazine articles written by so called "experts" that has no real clue of every day railroading.
That is a very good point.
If Rich only has one industry that requires switching from the main, it may only be a problem if the dispatcher schedules a highballing passenger train to follow the local. .
If the local is a short enough train, is it possible to extend the industry spur enough to park the train on (before the industry, not in front of it)?
Edit: If Rich has a double main all the way around, he could install crossovers at the proper places.
- Douglas
richhotrain Someone mentioned in another thread that it really helps to run industry spurs off a branch line so as not to foul the main line.
Someone mentioned in another thread that it really helps to run industry spurs off a branch line so as not to foul the main line.
Its not really a "branch line", they are talking about a lead parallel to the main, looks like a siding.
You don't have any problem whatsoever. You line is double tracked. You give the local a section of one main, then run the trains around it on the other main.
One of my industries is a double ended spur that connects to the main line on either end of the spur. No problem there with dropping off cars at the spur while picking up other cars to return to the yard.
On two other industries, for each industry, I have a single spur line off the main line, but it splits off into a 2-track spur. So, I can drop cars off and pick other cars up without ever having to re-enter the main line. It is my fourth industry that raises a problem. It is a single track spur off the main line. What do you do in that case if you have cars to be dropped off and cars to be picked up?
If you can set out cars you can pick up cars. You do it all at the same time. You are running a loop. Why even bother turning the train? Run one local clockwise and another local counter clockwise. From the yard back to the yard. It never changes directions.
DSO17Usually the local is pretty low on the dispatchers priority list, so it was a good idea for the local crew to pack a big lunch.
Actually locals and MOW crews are a thorn in the DS's and (back in the day) tower operator's backside..The operation department don't like 'em either.Some railroads sees 'em as a necessary evil.
Some railroads wasn't above forcing small 1 or 2 car a week industries to trucks and spun off profitable branch lines and some industrial heavy main lines to short lines and regional railroads.
richhotrain Someone mentioned in another thread that it really helps to run industry spurs off a branch line so as not to foul the main line. But, what if you don'r have a branch line? One of my industries is a double ended spur that connects to the main line on either end of the spur. No problem there with dropping off cars at the spur while picking up other cars to return to the yard. On two other industries, for each industry, I have a single spur line off the main line, but it splits off into a 2-track spur. So, I can drop cars off and pick other cars up without ever having to re-enter the main line. It is my fourth industry that raises a problem. It is a single track spur off the main line. What do you do in that case if you have cars to be dropped off and cars to be picked up? Rich
But, what if you don'r have a branch line?
On two other industries, for each industry, I have a single spur line off the main line, but it splits off into a 2-track spur. So, I can drop cars off and pick other cars up without ever having to re-enter the main line.
From a couple of eastern Roads in the "caboose era": Before leaving a location where the local was clear of the main, the conductor would inform the dispatcher (usually not directly, but through a tower operator) of the work to done and the time required until the local could get to the next point where it could clear the main. It was up to the dispatcher when to let the local out on the main. Sometimes the local could sit for a long while if there was a lot of other traffic to run. Usually the local is pretty low on the dispatchers priority list, so it was a good idea for the local crew to pack a big lunch.
If the local couldn't clear the main at an industry, the usual move was to leave everything on the main (not forgetting to flag if necessary) and first go in the spur with the engine and get the pick-ups and hold on to them while spotting the inbounds. That way, when the train is all coupled up and ready to leave, the brakes on the picked-up cars have had some time to charge. (Don't forget the flagman)
By the way, some main line locals on the B&O used to run with a caboose on the rear for the flagman and a caboose right behind the engine for the conductor (and maybe the front brakeman)
But, what if you don't have a branch line?