I'm just in the process of laying out my track. I have a number of Atlas Code 83 #8 turnouts on my mainline. My BL-2's and GP-7's have no problems with them, but my Consolidation 2-8-0 steam loco stalls out at them. I know Atlas says that this problem can be easily solved by using a relay wired to the switch motor. My question is this: I'm not using switch motors. I'm going strictly with Caboose Industrie's ground throws. So, how do I solve this problem if I'm not using switch motors?
Carl
"I could never belong to any club that would have me as a member."
Carl,
Use a CI 220S ground throw. These allow you to switch the polarity of the frog for your turnout. I use them on my Fast Track (FT) #5s. It presses the points right up against the railing on either side. Here's a handy FT diagram for wiring it up:
How To Wire A Standard Turnout With A Ground Throw (And How They Work)
You'll have to be sure that the frog on your Atlas #8 is properly isolated and a wire soldered to it.
Hope that helps...
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
Thank You Tom for that information. I will have to give it a try, albeit it a bit more involved than I was hoping for.
One would think that with all the manufacturing technology available now, someone would be able to manufacture turnouts that eliminated this problem straight out of the package, without having to go through all this.
It's the nature of the beast.
Long frog, short wheelbase.
Rich
Alton Junction
richhotrain It's the nature of the beast. Long frog, short wheelbase. Rich
Yup, I suppose that's true & I'll muddle through it all. I've been out of model railroading since the early/mid 1960's, so it's like learning this stuff all over again. Will need to deal with it as it will be a must for my layout. I'm modeling the Bangor & Aroostook, circa 1950's, but I'm also adding in the Aroostook Valley shortline. They only ran GE 44-Tonners, so I'm going to have to address the "long frog/short wheelbase" issue.
I did get one heck of a buy on Ebay a couple weeks back. A case of pure, blind luck & just logging on at the right moment. The listing had only been up for about a minute when I logged on. Got two Atlas/Kato built BAR GP-7's, 1950's blue/gray paint, road #'s 562 & 570, brand new in boxes, never used, complete with un-filled out warranty cards. Paid $45. on a Buy It Now for the pair!! They came the other day, little beauties. Both run like a charm, smooth, quiet, even at very low speeds. Sure can't beat the price!
Actually I am a little surprised that a 2-8-0 would have this problem; I would have thought the wheels that collect current would be spaced widely enough that it could get through a dead frog, even a #8. Having said that, I have not inspected that particular engine. Some steamers collect only from the locomotive and the tender goes along for the ride.
Sometimes the problem (I am not speaking specifically of Atlas products here) is that the frog lifts the wheels up and off the current carrying rails.
Dave Nelson
dknelson richhotrain It's the nature of the beast. Long frog, short wheelbase. Rich Actually I am a little surprised that a 2-8-0 would have this problem; I would have thought the wheels that collect current would be spaced widely enough that it could get through a dead frog, even a #8. Having said that, I have not inspected that particular engine. Some steamers collect only from the locomotive and the tender goes along for the ride. Sometimes the problem (I am not speaking specifically of Atlas products here) is that the frog lifts the wheels up and off the current carrying rails. Dave Nelson
I was a bit surprised at this too. I figured I would likely have the issue with my yard switchers, but not with the 2-8-0. It's a Bachmann Classic series and only gets juice through the loco. As you say, in this case, the tender only goes along for the ride. I'm going to test it at a higher speed to see if it makes it through that way. I've only attempted it at roughly 45 scale mph (which was the BAR's speed limit on much of their line).
AVRNUT I was a bit surprised at this too. I figured I would likely have the issue with my yard switchers, but not with the 2-8-0. It's a Bachmann Classic series and only gets juice through the loco.
I was a bit surprised at this too. I figured I would likely have the issue with my yard switchers, but not with the 2-8-0. It's a Bachmann Classic series and only gets juice through the loco.
So it's not the "Spectrum" 2-8-0? That may explain some things...
tstage AVRNUT I was a bit surprised at this too. I figured I would likely have the issue with my yard switchers, but not with the 2-8-0. It's a Bachmann Classic series and only gets juice through the loco. Carl, So it's not the "Spectrum" 2-8-0? That may explain some things... Tom
It worked! I set her up with a roughly 8 foot straight run to the first turnout, then put the pedal down, full throttle, and she went right through it, no problem.
Yes, it's the earlier "Collector's Classic" series. Couldn't pass her up for $29.95. It was in like-new condition, in box with papers etc. Appears to have had very little use. Had AT&SF makings, but I've already removed them. She will be done up as BAR #400, which was the only steam loco still in their fleet & operating up through 1956.
It may have worked with the pedal down, full throttle, but how about at the slowest speeds?
If you're using DCC, you can power the frogs with Tam Valley "Frog Juicers." I did just that to all of my Atlas code 83 #8s, and eliminated stalling over the frogs completely. They work without regard to what you're using to throw the points. http://tamvalleydepot.com/products/dccpowerfrogjuicers.html
Rob Spangler
richhotrain It may have worked with the pedal down, full throttle, but how about at the slowest speeds? Rich
Nope, at the slowest speeds she won't make it over the turnout & will stall out. I WILL eventually get the turnouts & groundthrows wired up as was previously suggested. But at least until then, when I'm only running a train or two here & there while taking a break from construction, I can just tromp it when approaching the turnouts. No problems with my Proto BL-2's or Atla/Kato GP-7's. I do plan on eventually adding a couple EMD F-3's to the fleet as well & I doubt the issue will arise with them.
Could you just add pick ups to the tender? That should help overall operation also.
Go for the gusto.
Lee
yankee flyer Could you just add pick ups to the tender? That should help overall operation also.
Lee, I wondered that too but was afraid to ask for fear that the OP might come back and ask how to do it.
So, better you than me. How would you do it?
richhotrain yankee flyer Could you just add pick ups to the tender? That should help overall operation also. Lee, I wondered that too but was afraid to ask for fear that the OP might come back and ask how to do it. So, better you than me. How would you do it? Rich
Well, just so you won't be disappointed..............How WOULD one do that?
OK, a big part of the problem here is that the loco in question not only lacks tender pickup, but has no driver springing. So as it goes over the frog of a Custom Line #8 (which I use lots of) some of the wheels that are not in the frog likely lift off the rail loosing contact.
Hot frogs are a necessity in my book, and I much prefer the isolated frog with separate wiring than the old solid frog with gaps that relied on the point to change the frog power and power the closure rail and frog.
Personally I don't like Caboose ground throws and you will find the ones with the electrical contacts require great care to install and wire. I have friend who has a whole layout full of them.
While it may not look prototypical (neither does an over sized Caboose ground throw), I use simple miniature slide switches and a piece of music wire bent into a "Z" to operate my "ground throw" turnouts. It provides the needed switching for the frog and can provide other electrical functions as well. In my case the position of turnouts controls track power via relays in a number of somewhat complex ways.
My slide switch grond throws are easily operated with the same small straight screwdrivers I use for uncoupling.
As for the loco in question, tender pickups would not be that hard - but if you have to ask how, it is likely beyond your skill set. And based on my experiance selling those locos three decades ago when they first came out, you almost paid too much.
Sheldon
As Sheldon and others have stated, I have had the same problem with Atlas turnouts. The frog insert sometimes is higher than the rails on either side. I had a Proto 0-8-0 which didnt have tender wheel pickups refuse to go over those frogs. The frame was too rigid and when the middle wheels hit the frog, the outer wheels were lifted.
Overall, I like Atlas turnouts. I have several code 83's on the layout and have had no trouble with them. You can weather the track to tone down the dark colored frog. My eight wheel diesels go through them all day w/o stalling, so I havent bothered with electrifying the frogs.
Sheldon hit upon one of my observations. Caboose ground throws are nearly the size of the HO scale Volkwagon I have on the layout. I've looked for such a prototype, but haven't seen one yet. But, hey, we make concessions to scale all the time as modelers.
AVRNUT Lee, I wondered that too but was afraid to ask for fear that the OP might come back and ask how to do it. So, better you than me. How would you do it? Rich
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All of my locos are modern so I have never had the need to install pickups on tenders but someone on here must know how, because I have read several suggestions to add pickups. I did have to rewire this loco to spread the pickup foot print. Although it did have the axle wiper type pickups.A thin brass strip mounted on the truck pivot and wiping the metal axles. On one truck, the insulated wheels are turned to the left on the other truck the insulated wheels are turned to the right. A thin brass strip with a wire attached is run up inside the tender and up to the engine where it would be attached to the engine wiring. the two brass pieces ride against each other on the truck pivots. Sorry I don't have a picture to post right now. It would be a nice project.
Have fun.
The OP has probably wander off by now but here are the examples. The Southern was a rescue loco.I hope this helps.
Nope, The OP is still around. Thank You Lee for the idea & for posting the photos. Looks to actually be a fairly straightforward, simple enough proceedure & a fun project. I just may give it a go.
(Of course, I hate to disappoint Sheldon by attempting something "beyond my skill set". Amazing that he knows my skill set, as I don't believe he & I have ever met............unless he was the guy at the train show that had my Consolidation 2-8-0 that I "almost payed too much for").
Once again, thanks for the idea & the photos.
This may sound like putting the cart before the horse but I wonder if the quickest and easist solution to this problem is to use a different turnout, perhaps a Peco Code 83? Even if you add tender pick up to this particular 2-8-0 what about the engine you buy tomorrow? And if the problem is that the frog lifts the wheels up so contact is broken, what would it do to buckeye trucks etc?
dknelson This may sound like putting the cart before the horse but I wonder if the quickest and easist solution to this problem is to use a different turnout, perhaps a Peco Code 83? Even if you add tender pick up to this particular 2-8-0 what about the engine you buy tomorrow? And if the problem is that the frog lifts the wheels up so contact is broken, what would it do to buckeye trucks etc? Dave Nelson
A few more thoughts:
A PECO #8, insulfrog or electfrog is twice the cost of an Atlas #8
PECO turnouts have a throw bar system that must be modified for use with Caboose ground throws.
PECO electfrog turnouts require gaping and unreliable point power feeds, especially after you modify the throw bar system to be free moving to work with the Caboose ground throw. It can of course be used without the ground throw, but even the PECO "contacts" can wear with time and make poor contact.
The Atlas turnout may or may not have a slightly raised frog, but this is easily fixed with a light filing of the top of the frog. This raised frog problem with the Atlas product is more common in the #6.
ANY old style rigid frame steam loco is likely to lift a wheel or two on ANY turnout, especially one with a frog as long as a #8.
Powered isolated frogs have proven themselves to be the most reliable and short circuit free solution to this problem - clearly demonstrated by the fact that both Walthers and Micro Engineering felt it necessary to redesign their products once DCC became popular.
The feed through, concept, keeping the points and their stock rails the same polarity all the time, and not relying on the points to transfer power power to the closure rails or the frog is far superior to the "old way".
My thanks to all for the comments & suggestions. I have no plans to add further steam locos to the fleet. My layout is the BAR, circa 1950's. They had "officially" retired all their steam locos by 1951, but actually kept 2-8-0 #400 around until 1956 when she was finally scrapped. So, it's the only steam loco that I plan on running.
That being the case, I think Lee's suggestion of adding tender pickup is likely the easiest way to go on this. The diesels have no problems on the #8 turnouts. I have 6 of those turnouts in my main yard alone and 4 more further up my main line. So, I think adding the tender pickups will be a far quicker, easier solution than wiring up the ground throws on all 10 turnouts.
Of course I will be incorporating the Aroostook Valley line's small yard at Presque Isle at the opposite end of the layout. Their entire loco fleet consisted of 3 GE 44-Tonners, which of course have a very short wheelbase, so I'll likely run into the problem there too. Only a couple turnouts on that small yard & if necessary, I will wire up the ground throws there.
I recently bought a Spectrum 44-Tonner, undecorated, new in box. Haven't painted it yet or put on the detail parts, but it will be done up as #12, which is the one in my avatar photo.
Once again, thanks to all for the help & suggestions.