B&O1952 It's your layout, you can do as you wish... SNIP We have an old Globe 40' NKP boxcar that I recently weathered, there's a Tyco Western Maryland flat car with the three tractors still making the rounds, some other classic manufacturers include Lionel, Marx, Varney, Cox, Model Power, and a few more if I think hard enough. Of course, they are a small part of our 600 car fleet, and blend in quite well with our more accurate cars. -Stan
It's your layout, you can do as you wish...
SNIP
We have an old Globe 40' NKP boxcar that I recently weathered, there's a Tyco Western Maryland flat car with the three tractors still making the rounds, some other classic manufacturers include Lionel, Marx, Varney, Cox, Model Power, and a few more if I think hard enough. Of course, they are a small part of our 600 car fleet, and blend in quite well with our more accurate cars.
-Stan
Stan,
Yeah, that's what the last guy said, right before the "prototype police" slapped the cuffs on him...
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
It's your layout, you can do as you wish. We still keep one piece of just about every HO manufacturer from the "vintage" days around. We will change out the truck sets, and add Kadee couplers and draft gear to all. We have an old Globe 40' NKP boxcar that I recently weathered, there's a Tyco Western Maryland flat car with the three tractors still making the rounds, some other classic manufacturers include Lionel, Marx, Varney, Cox, Model Power, and a few more if I think hard enough. Of course, they are a small part of our 600 car fleet, and blend in quite well with our more accurate cars.
RMax1 On a scale of 1 to 10 I rate myself as a B. RMax
On a scale of 1 to 10 I rate myself as a B.
RMax
Is that a Hex B?
Paul
cuyama Koester's column was about using prototype information to make a freelance layout more plausible -- if that's what you want.
Koester's column was about using prototype information to make a freelance layout more plausible -- if that's what you want.
Bryon,That's been Tony's mantra for years so,nothing new there.I have learn a lot about freelancing a railroad through his lessons and by doing limited research to learn the how and why modern prototype short lines came into being.
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As Dave H. notes, there are many dimensions along which one may measure themselves in the hobby. Many of which have not been mentioned here, such as reliability, authenticity of operating scheme, replication of real-life job roles, etc.
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I agree..IMHO the best way to improved our modeling is by judging ourselves and not by other's modeling or modeling style since we need only to please ourselves..
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
Rastafarr Even if Tyco guy isn't up to TK's admirable and difficult standards,
Stu,Actually Tony's standards isn't all that hard to achieve but,it does take time and above all dedication for doing the research involved with such modeling..
Even though such modeling fascinates me I never had the needed dedication for doing the required research and making field trips so,I always stuck with close enough/good enough modeling in the era I am modeling-with believability based on limited research of course..
Burlington Northern #24 the problem is that many of us are not tony koester trying to follow a railroad exactly to the last screw on the long hood of a Locomotive.
That's not what he wrote about. Only the Original Poster is trying to to somehow turn Tony Koester's column into some kind of value judgement about layouts, which it most certainly was not.
All this discussion of applying value judgments and awarding style points 1-10 to model railroading is counter-productive in my view. But to be accurate, leave Koester out of it in any case.
Byron
Layout Design GalleryLayout Design Special Interest Group
I've always been interested in history, so I like things on my railroad to be pretty accurate. I know how to do detailed historical research, and have done so in the past. That being said, my job working with tax laws and regulations can be very VERY detail oriented, so I when I go home I don't want to put that same strain and effort into the layout. I'm aiming for getting the feel of the time and place more than exactly recreating reality. For me, running an NP RS-11 that was built in 1959 next to a GN 2-8-2 that was retired in 1955 isn't a big issue. Both engines were used in the area I model and in the same type of service (Minnesota iron ore railroading) at roughly the same time, so are fine with me being on the layout at the same time.
I am about an 8 or 9. I like things to be accurate and in scale. I try to model actual places and try to make it as accurate as I can given the historical record. It was easier when I was modeling 1950's B&O. Modeling 1910 Nevada railroads means some modeling license is required since there are no maps or pictures for a lot of things.
For me, I would label myself as a protolancer; modeling a small country town, freight house, and servicing terminal along the NYC in the early 40s. While I do attempt to historically model and operate my layout as the prototype would during that era, I model no specific place on the NYC. My enjoyment in modeling derives from the desire to create - as plausible as possible - a cross-section or window of time that no longer exists; locomotive, rolling stock, automobiles, structures, flora, lighting, etc. all blending together to take one back to an era where the railroad was a lifeline and an integral part of people's lives on a daily basis.
That doesn't mean I can't enjoy occasional anachronistic whimsey - e.g. a '51 VW Bug parked in the driveway. - or a stretch in "prototype adherence" because of lack of historical data - e.g. the use of a simple ball signal (mostly found and concentrated in the New England area); something that the NYC "may" have used but I can't find any info to support that. Each layout should (and does) reflect its creator and his or her own personality. That's what brings the creation alive.
So, if I were to rate myself on a scale of 1-10, I'd have to give myself an 8.5 or 9. And the accuracy (or inaccuracy) that I desire to achieve is confined and limited to the sphere of my own layout and no one else's.
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
mononguy63 Interesting that the initial responses of rating yourself on the 1-to-10 scale quickly distilled into more of a "where am I in the 5-to-8 range" evaluation. If I'd paid more attention years ago in my psychology class, I might be able to make something of that...
Interesting that the initial responses of rating yourself on the 1-to-10 scale quickly distilled into more of a "where am I in the 5-to-8 range" evaluation. If I'd paid more attention years ago in my psychology class, I might be able to make something of that...
Psychology? How about statistics? Purely based on a gaussian distribution about the mean, we should be centered at 5.5. But, we're not. And, I think there's a pretty easy answer. Most of us here are "self-selected" as people who are far more serious about the hobby than the more casual model railroaders who pull out the trains and put them around the tree every year. Those guys and gals (as opposed to us guys and gals) fill that gap in the 2-4 range. Some may not even get why the Hot Wheels cars look out of place, having only a passing understanding of scale and era. And, they (and perhaps their kids) have a great time even if they mix the Late Transition Era with the Jurassic.
Where are the 9's and 10's? I think they're here. But I think they are too modest to claim their rightful place. We are a humble bunch.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
Burlington Northern #24to each their own , would probably be the best analysis for this 1-10 scale which is just a category of labeling. the problem is that many of us are not tony koester trying to follow a railroad exactly to the last screw on the long hood of a Locomotive.
I don't think TK is advocating that at all.
In reality there are multiple "dimensions" (probably over ten). Something that hasn't really been addressed is operations. So far what everybody has been talking about is how things "look". Nothing really about how it works. That is a critical aspect of model railroading that separates if from all the other small scale modeling hobbies (except RC planes). There is an aspect of how the trains physically operate, how the trains operate, how the cars are routed. There is whether the models are accurate physically, whether they are accurate in how they are painted. There is the accuracy of the track. There is accuracy of era. All sorts of dimensions.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
to each their own , would probably be the best analysis for this 1-10 scale which is just a category of labeling. the problem is that many of us are not tony koester trying to follow a railroad exactly to the last screw on the long hood of a Locomotive. some of us are serious modelers and some are more laxed, it's like someone said earlier " as long as you're having fun you're fine." fun is very subjective but read it with a loosely based meaning( operating or just running trains to run trains, etc.) this is probably what often leads to bolt counting comments going against casual MRR comments. I run trains to run trains but sure next layout(s) will be built with Operations in mind so I can mix it up.
SP&S modeler, 1960's give or take a decade or two for some equipment.
http://www.youtube.com/user/SGTDUPREY?feature=guide
Gary DuPrey
N scale model railroader
Each year, there is a model train show in Utrecht/The Netherlands, where some of the finest layouts are being displayed. Search youtube, using the keyword "Ontraxs", and you will see them.
Most of them are not following any specific prototype, and some of them may not even be near any real prototype practice, but,heck, they certainly are some of the best and most atmospheric layouts I have ever seen.
IMHO, closely following a specific prototype will not automatically result in a good layout. It´s the overall effect, consisting of operation, detail, scenery, atmosphere, which separates "the boys from the men".
I think Texas Zepher has gotten closest to how complex our modeling realities actually are. There simply isn't a linear scale or even a X/Y axis that can encompass the range of desires and intentions found across the model railroading community.
One thing I specifically object to is judging anyone on a 1 to 10 scale that measures protypical accuracy. First, what are you measuring it? How are you measuring it? However it's done, it's on the basis of the assumption that what's really important is how close to prototype it is.
That's fine if you're measuring the minority in the hobby for whom that is the most important thing. Often enough, this doesn't really apply to someone's layout as a whole, just to equipment. And it doesn't really apply very accurately to most of us, even those like me who are very-prototype and location driven.
But over and over again, you'll hear someone say "the prototype did this" as if that ever really settles anything when what we're discussing is a artistic and somewhat symbolic representation of reality. Maybe I've spent too much time in grad school, but to me that's just the beginning of a serious discussion, not a way to end it.
Warning! Warning! About to talk out of both sides of my face!!
One the scale suggested by the OP, I'd say I'm a 7. Real world locations, matching scenery, prototypical operations, concentration on one line in particular (CP). Where I lose points is a) my insertion of non-existent industries to make operation more dynamic and b) creation of a wholly fictitious luxury passenger excursion service (so I can plausibly run whatever the heck I want).
On the other side, the OP misses something critical. Even if Tyco guy isn't up to TK's admirable and difficult standards, at least he's playing with trains. That he's having fun with trains is really all that matters in the long run; the rest is just details.
Stu
Streamlined steam, oh, what a dream!!
mononguy63I consider these two to be the opposite extremes of the Model Railroading Spectrum. So if Mr. Tyco were a 1, and TK were a 10, where would we rate ourselves falling on that scale?
Then there could also be a separate scale or triangle for the various aspects of a layout. The trains, the scenery, the operations. One could have 100% prototypical trains and run them in a loop with zero operational realism. One could have a 100% accurate track plan and run toy trains on it.
Another problem with the question is that is assumes that each person has only one modeling outlet. Many people have more than one layout and even model in multiple scales. I used to model prototype in O and freelance in N. I tried to both in HO!
My current goal for my primary layout is to be on that pint of the triangle that is the 100% amazingly awsome freelance that everyone wonders if it is really a prototype. Unfortunately I've think I've used up all my best ideas for the club's freelance.
The modular layout is more concerned about half way decent looking scenes, the trains are whatever runs well at a show. Not much attempt to match trains / scenery or even time periods.
On the other hand I enter models into the various historical society modeling contests which have to be 100% prototypical.
On the third hand I have toy trains around the Christmas trees that I make zero attempt to be prototypical....
So does that make me a 5 - 10 - 1 ???
And then there are all my other modeling interests (caboose collecting, fantasy reefers) which lie at different points in the triangular spectrum.
well I don't fit any where.
The wide variety of trains I have in terms of period and national boundary's crossed, built up over many years say train set. The scenery says model railway.
The big one starting next year just will not fit in a pigeon hole
Given current layout is very small and actually trying to be a particular type of railroad even to the point of leaving non fitting stock in its boxes this ones probably a 5. At the moment still a lot of details to find out yet
regards John
I can't put it on a scale but I try to get as close to prototype as I can within the limitations of space I have and scope I want.
A spectrum is one-dimensional. The concept we're kicking around is at least two-dimensional, with toys at the bottom of the vertical axis and Proto87 at the top, while the horizontal axis runs from pure freelance at the intersection to absolute prototype fidelity at the farther end - so a 10/10 would be a Proto87 standard dead accurate model of East Urbana, IL, in 1974, with every weed and ballast stone in place. A 36 x 45 loop on bare plywood, with a warbonnet F7 pulling a Geoffery (TRU) boxcar, a Vlasic reefer and a NYC caboose, would be zero/zero.
So, where do I stand? my JNR modeling is somewhere above 9 in fidelity, but only about a 5 in the toy/masterpiece scale. My Tomikawa Tani Tetsudo is actually higher on the appearance scale (I put more effort into cosmetic detail for TTT rolling stock) but is at best a 1+ on the freelance-prototype scale. Both of them coexist amicably on the same double garage filler, even though their only real commonality is track gauge and compatible couplers...
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964 - sort of)
mononguy63 Interesting reponses thus far. Obviously my initial standards cited for establishing the continuum were perhaps not the best thought-out comments I've made, but it seems you all have generally figured out my intent. Interesting that the initial responses of rating yourself on the 1-to-10 scale quickly distilled into more of a "where am I in the 5-to-8 range" evaluation. If I'd paid more attention years ago in my psychology class, I might be able to make something of that... The forum's been kinda slow lately. Let's keep the discussion going, try to liven things up a bit going into the holidays!
Interesting reponses thus far. Obviously my initial standards cited for establishing the continuum were perhaps not the best thought-out comments I've made, but it seems you all have generally figured out my intent.
The forum's been kinda slow lately. Let's keep the discussion going, try to liven things up a bit going into the holidays!
The "Retro Guy" on the "other forum", does not attempt to claim that he is modeling a prototype. He is modeling a '60s-70s HO version of a delightful '60s Hi-rail type layout.
Koester, on the other hand is attempting -quite successfully, I might add - to duplicate a real railroad during a specific era.
I find myself in a different category than either. Equipment wise,I model the PRR in the 1965-1968 period just before it became the PC. My track plan is based on a specific 5 mile Reading line, in Southeastern Pennsylvania, while my industries are based on locations in North Jersey and Baltimore. My operations are based on yard and local freight operations on Conrail. No waybills, just drill orders. Essentially, I'm broadly modeling my 42 year railroad career, not a specific prototype operation/ location. Everything is based on historical operation, selectively compressed, but nothing is exact.
I'm not quite sure where I would fit in on a numerical scale. But I'm having fun doing it.
A six
I have my own road called the Birdsboro & Reading.
It is based on lines that were owned by the Reading Co. and the Pennsylvania RR.
I model in October 1974......the very month and year that I was born.
I do have some Reading Co. locomotives that in my world are being leased by the B&R.
Detailing on the B&R fleet of locomotives is a combination of what other roads had on their loco`s......but yet keeping it looking realistic.
My freight car fleet has Arch Bar trucks up to a few pieces with Roller Bearings.
Passenger cars range from real wood old time cars up to 4 and 6 wheel trucked heavyweight cars.
I won`t rated myself on the aforementioned scale..........I basically build and run what I want ...but keep it looking prototypical.
Dennis Blank Jr.
CEO,COO,CFO,CMO,Bossman,Slavedriver,Engineer,Trackforeman,Grunt. Birdsboro & Reading Railroad
"I am lapidary but not eristic when I use big words." - William F. Buckley
I haven't been sleeping. I'm afraid I'll dream I'm in a coma and then wake up unconscious. -Stephen Wright
mononguy63 My apologies in advance for maybe resurrecting a dead horse for additional beating... On another forum, an individual started a thread showcasing his "vintage" layout. He used sectional track set up on a flat grass mat, Tyco engines and rolling stock, buildings & accessories from Plasticville & Life-Like arranged to look like there might be roads between them, Hot Wheels cars, etc. It celebrated all that makes scale modelers and officianados of good equipment shudder. Last night I read the Trains of Thought column in my January issue of MRR. In it, Tony Koester offered this advice to modelers considering freelancing a railroad: "Don't." Of course, his reputation for strict prototypical adherence in equipment and operations is well known. I consider these two to be the opposite extremes of the Model Railroading Spectrum. So if Mr. Tyco were a 1, and TK were a 10, where would we rate ourselves falling on that scale? ... I'd like to hear others' self-evaluations. And please let's not turn this into a Tyco- or TK-bashfest. Jim
My apologies in advance for maybe resurrecting a dead horse for additional beating...
On another forum, an individual started a thread showcasing his "vintage" layout. He used sectional track set up on a flat grass mat, Tyco engines and rolling stock, buildings & accessories from Plasticville & Life-Like arranged to look like there might be roads between them, Hot Wheels cars, etc. It celebrated all that makes scale modelers and officianados of good equipment shudder.
Last night I read the Trains of Thought column in my January issue of MRR. In it, Tony Koester offered this advice to modelers considering freelancing a railroad: "Don't." Of course, his reputation for strict prototypical adherence in equipment and operations is well known.
I consider these two to be the opposite extremes of the Model Railroading Spectrum. So if Mr. Tyco were a 1, and TK were a 10, where would we rate ourselves falling on that scale?
...
I'd like to hear others' self-evaluations. And please let's not turn this into a Tyco- or TK-bashfest.
Jim
You seem to mixing two different spectrums (and there are many more than 2 in model railroading).
If all of Mr. Tyco's engines are labelled for the Santa Fe along with his cabooses and passenger cars, then Mr. Tyco is a protoype modeler, modeling the Santa Fe. If he uses grass mats for his scenery he may be modeling the Santa Fe in Illinois.
A free lance layout would be the Gorre and Daphetid - a railroad with no prototype in a mountain setting that doesn.t exist.
The other spectrum here is the toy train - scale fidelity spectrum. As you describe it, Mr. Tyco has a toy train layout. You may correctly say that Mr. Tyco's models are not very detailed or accurate, but he is still a prototype modeler if all his models are for that prototype. The Gorre and Daphetid has lots of detail, is well done, and artistically pleasing, but it's still free lance.
Personally, I am following the Maryland and Pennsylvania, but am perfectly happy including my PRS 1937 AAR boxcar decorated for the Gorre and Daphetid. On a scale of 1-10 I'll be closer to 10 than1 on both these spectrums, but probably not more than a 7 or 8. So I'm not 100% pure, but still feel I am capturing the essence of the Ma&Pa.
Enjoy
I miss the old Philosophy Friday threads, so I thank you for coming up with a topic worthy of those memorable discussions we used to have.
I'm probably a 7. Or, maybe I have a goal of being a 7. If you took a look at my layout, you'd find too few home-road freight cars, and too many locomotives that would never have run on the main lines or yards of the Milwaukee. I've added significantly to my Milwaukee boxcar roster lately, though, and I've been working on my engine-painting skills to "naturalize" those immigrants that have been hanging out in town for so long.
Maybe it's easier to judge based on what I don't do. I don't add road-specific details to match old photos of steam engines. I don't read the built-on dates and reject rolling stock on that basis. I don't limit my choice of railroad signals. At the same time, I won't run autoracks or boxcars without roof walks.
My Tyco operating clamshell hopper cars are just fine, now that they've been weathered and equipped with Kadees, even if all 7 of the cars from the PRR have the same road number. And there are no Hot Wheels cars and no dinosaurs.
Every freight train has a caboose, though. There are some things about adhering to prototype that can't be ignored.
I think I'm all over the spectrum since I'm high on prototype operation and I base my freelance railroads using a mixture of believability and good enough/close enough modeling with restrictions like cars in era,believable industries and believable scenery in a industrialized area.
Don't ask the question if you don't want to know the answer. If you do ask the question, be very thankful about all the responses, including those you feel are wrong.
One of the problems a lot of freelancers (or those on the 0-5 range of the scale) run into is when they go towards the low end of the scale then ask, "is this plausible?", "is this prototypical?" or what would the prototype do?"
Then they get upset (and others also) when the answers come in no, no, and not what you did.
If you are driving towards the low end of the scale, don't ask those types of questions. When you made the decision to aim below 6 you pretty much made the decision that you would accept negative answers to the "is this prototypical?" questions. I also don't feel bad about telling people IF THEY ASK, sorry, their whatever isn't prototyical for whatever reason. Its not being mean, they chose the low end of the spectrum and asked the question. I'll tell them the truth.
That has nothing to do with whether they should model in the 0-5 range or whether that's fun or whether its good or bad. If you want to pull auto racks with balloon stack 4-4-0's around 18" brass snap track curves on a Life-Like grass mat surface, GREAT! Go for the gusto, Have fun. Just expect that if you ask me, "Is that prototypical?", I'm gonna say no.
I would claim 7 or 8, with allowances for necessary selective compression. I think of myself as like the historical novel writer. who attempts to be true to the history, but who invents fictional characters who are not specific real people.
My layout under construction is based on the Santa Fe in Galveston ca. 1957.
I call it by th fictitious name "Karankawa" so I don't have to copy the scene exactly. A number of interesting signature landmarks are located a couple miles from the railroad- the notorious nightclub pier,
the world war two naval short defense bunkers ("Guns of Navarone")
the motel made to look like a ship
I am twisting the geography to include them in.
But I still inbtnd it to be a recognizable place and time.